distance themselves from the likes of glenn beck, rush limbaugh, grover norquist and ann coulter. >> guest: well, i don't know about the other guys, but i would say not at all for me. [laughter] snarl words. i mean, this is like what i said about joe mccarthy. what's your point? what are you disagreeing with? what's the snarl world? was i think that was not -- because i think that was not all sweetness and nights in that e-mail. [laughter] but this is how liberals avoid talking about the issues. i mean, that was the theme of "slander" that they anat metize us. racists, sexist, ugly, mean. don't listen to this person, don't read this american. danger, danger. well, if you could argue with us on our ideas, i think you'd do so. and if we were despicable and harm? ing, i don't think we'd have -- snarling i don't think we'd have so many fans. ..
>> host: in guilty maybe. >> guest: is that guilty? >> host: i think so, yeah. >> guest: i remember the theme of it. no, i think that is godless. it's the liberal stabilities and how they -- saints and how they -- it's sort of the reverse of what i just said. the democrats' new technique. it drives them crazy that conservatives have their own media now, fox news where you can occasionally see a conservative. so their approach is to send out sobbing, hysterical women to make their points, and you can't respond to them. from cindy sheehan to the jersey girls to joe wilson. oh, but they had a relative die. you can't respond, they're allowed to foist the entire left-wing agenda on us. >> host: next call for ann counter comes from jordan in lexington, kentucky. hi, jordan. >> caller: hi, ann. such a huge, huge fan.
i'm a former college republicans president at murray state university and a former reagan scholarship l recipient, also, from the phillips foundation. >> guest: oh, that's great. congratulations. nice to meet you. >> caller: thank you so much. thatat was, of course, back in 2007.co but really i have two questionsl for you, and i am reading "demonic" right now, by the waye and i think it's my favorite of your books. i've read literally every one. >> guest: you are a fine more than and will go -- fine american and will go far. [laughter] >> guest: two questions. is it true that your mother is actually from paducah, kentucky? >> guest: why, yes, she is. i was almost town this a couple of weeks ago, but i was kind of> busy with the g book. >> caller: that's great. well, when i heard that, i was so excited. reu i live in lexington now, but went to murray state, so we have
great conservatives in pa due paducah. second question, i haven't been able to make it to any of your book tours, and you've really made a huge impression on me in terms of your christian faith and telling things like it is, so i've really been wanting an autograph of my book "demonic -- >> guest: i'm sure you can getn' it to me through the phillips foundation. >> host: what's the phillips foundation? >> guest: tom phillips bought up various publications events". conservative book club. very other publications. he gives out, very impressive that you won this award for a young journalist. they get an award, i guess it is called the reagan award. i haven't been judge. i'm aware of the various winners and tom phillips, so he oversees this whole complex which i'm a small
part. you can definitely get the book to me through the phillips foundation. >> host: next call for ann coulter comes from new york city. hi, mike. >> caller: hello. good afternoon to all of you. i would, like to talk about the recent act of white terrorism in norway. initially this is described by people on the right as muslim terrorism, which was incorrect. then it was described by people on the left as christian terrorism. which is also incorrect. the only way this could have been described is that and drers breivik, is a white racist terrorist who committed an act of white terrorism in a worldwide system of white supremacy. forget christianity. forget right-wing. for get left-wing. that is the only way this
should be looked at. and to do so any other way is, incorrect. >> guest: i agree with part of that. and as luck would have it, i read his mannyfesto. not all of it. it gets a little representative so you can skim right through some parts -- repetitive. i'm unaware of any conservatives who blamed it on islamic terrorism. we didn't know what it was. by the time we heard what happened he was being described in "the new york times" headlines as christian fundamentalist. gun-toting, fox news-viewing i believe. and his mannyfesto makes clear as the caller said, he isn't a christian. he uses the word christian to mean, nonislamic. it is not specifically, i don't know, black, hispanics, brown people. no, it is muslims he does not like. that's it. and yes it was very
anti-muslim. he talks how he wants the jews and buddhists and all the people of europe to join with him to fight against the islam maization of europe. that is his big thing. whether or not that is connected to the insanity on some molecular level i don't know but for "the new york times" to describe him as >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> next, julia scheeres presents a history of jim jones and the people's temple, a church that attracted hundreds to guyana, and congressman leo ryan was assassinated in 1978. it's about an hour. >> thanks for coming out on a random wednesday night, i really appreciate it and want to apologize for my voice. i have a cold. that i caught from my
2-year-old. but anyway, again, this is the book, and it came out two weeks ago. my first book was about my relationship with my adopted black brother, david, and growing up in a rural town in indiana and then being sent off to roadway form school in the -- reform school in the dominican republic. so there were, oddly, some parallels between the two books as far as race and kind of belonging to a cloistered society which -- religion, and also being sent away. and i think especially when i got to the part writing about jonestown and how secluded and isolated and cut off from the world that the jonestown residents were, i could really empathize with those people. and oddly enough, there were some punishments used in jonestown that were similar to punishments used at my reform
school. for example, when people ran away from my reform school, they had their heads shaved, or they were put on something called running support where they had to run from place to place. so that was kind of interesting to see those parallels. and the book has this origin, i was actually writing a novel, kind of a satirical novel about a charismatic preacher who takes over this small indiana town. i'm from indiana. and i thought about jim jones, another hoosier. and so i googled him and learned that the fbi had released all of the documents that they found in jonestown and that no one had used those to craft a book. and so they -- what happened was for those that don't know, after the, a congressman from san mateo, california, which is south of here decided to go down to jonestown to investigate
claims that people were being held against their will. and as he was leaving, a group of people from jonestown decided to join him. they wanted out. and so jim jones knew that the gig was up. once those people left and came back to the states, they were going to tell people about the conditions in jonestown. so what he did was he sicced his security guards on this departing party as they were waiting at this jungle airstrip, and they killed congressman ryan and members of the people that were leaving. so the fbi then goes in, it's a federal investigation. congressman leo ryan is the first congressman killed in the line of duty in u.s. history. the fbi goes into jonestown after they clear the body, and they just start collecting documents as evidence trying to figure out what the heck happened, you know, was there a conspiracy to kill the congressman? and they go through literally picking there the mud letters
that were never sent home, diaries, crop reports, meeting notes. they collect 50,000 pieces of paper. and that would be like, i don't know, i figured it out, 150 300-page novels, that's what i started working with. and a lot of it looked like this, heavily redacted, couldn't read anything. and then as i was about to turn the book in, they released unredacted versions of the documents, and now i could finally see who was doing that, who was ordering cyanide, who was planning to kill everyone. so that was kind of interesting. um, so i'm going to just read to you -- well, first, i guess i should explain the structure of the book. 98 people die inside guy -- 918
people died in guyana that day, so my way in was to pick five different people who represent different demographics that were attracted to jim jones. and so you have, for example, a middle-aged white woman, college educated, who worked at duck tails and was a progressive and really wanted to do something to help the cause of minorities and african-americans and was drawn to jim jones' church which at the time was really seen as this progress i have force -- progressive force, as a movement here in san francisco. so you have her at one end of the spectrum. at the other end you have stanley clayton from oakland who was brought up in a broken home, angry, saw everything kind of in racial terms. and for him jim jones' message about equality and establishing this utopia where there would be
no racism or sexism or elitism, i mean, that really fell sweetly on his ears. so he was drawn to jim jones church. so you had, you know, it would you believe the just blacks -- it wasn't just blacks, it wasn't just whites, this was this '70s mix of people who really wanted to do something to improve social justice. another person i follow through is tommy boag who was sent down to jonestown as a teenager. he was sent down to straighten, you know, to get straightened out. he was skipping class and, you know, stopped going to church. and so he was sent down there to, you know, to isolate him from negative peers. and i really bonded with tommy. one thing people don't realize is that a third of the people who died in the jonestown massacre were minors, so that's
another perspective; what is it like to be in a church just because your parents are members and end up in jonestown and have, you know, no say in the matter? and then the, i also profile his father, so it's tommy, jim boag, stanley clayton, the young man from oakland, it's edith roller who worked at duck tail as a secretary, and then there are these two sisters from alabama, high -- high sint -- and they joined in the '50s in end annapolis when jim jones first started people's temple. and he really was at the cutting edge of the civil rights movement there. he was integrating his church, he was integrating lunch counters, he was going around to hospitals and integrating
hospitals. but, you know, hyacinth and her sister were really drawn to his message of equality. they saw him on television one sunday. they turned on the television, they saw his integrated choir and this young preacher inviting people of all colors to come to his church. and to them it was a revelation. so they end up in jonestown. so through the book i introduce you to these different people. hopefully, you become emotionally attached to them and you understand a little bet more while it was that people ended up in jonestown. you know, i think one of the hopes i have for this book is that it changes perceptions about what happened, that the people who went -- bless you. you know, it is so easy now for people to denounce jones' victims at cultists and baby killers and even, you know, susan jacoby who's a respected
cultural historian recently called them in her book the psychotic kool-aid drinkers of jonestown. well, you know, i hope this book challenges those notions and really sets the record straight about how trapped people were in jonestown and how isolated. and there was no way out. and that's what i found in these documents. i found these heartbreaking letters from dozens of letters from people to jim jones saying, i want to go home. i had no idea it was like this. please, my children are scared, just let me go home. and he wouldn't let anybody leave. and the central argument of my book and what i discovered in my research is that he was planning to kill his followers for years before he brought them to jonestown. he talked about loading them into buses and driving the buses off the golden gate bridge. he talked about loading them onto airplane and crashing it
into the ocean. and, of course, the rank and file members had no idea that these secret conversations were going on. it was his inner circle who tended to be the young, white, depressed, nihilistic people that kind of reflected his own character. so i think that is the most heart breaking thing about what happened at jonestown is that the rank and file who went down there, you know, the poor, the inner city, the progressives, they went down to jonestown thinking that they were going to par tack in this -- partake in this great social experiment, that they were going to stay for a month, they were going to send their kids off for a semester abroad, and then they would come home. and then once they got down there, jim jones took away their passports, their money and said no one's going home. no one can leave. and that is the most chilling thing i found in my research. and a year before the massacre
he is starting to talk to them about the fact that someday they're going to commit revolutionary suicide. someday they are going to die to protest capitalism. and when he first brings this up, people are like, wait a second, we didn't come down here to die, we came down here to give our children a better life. and they would argue with him night after night, you know, he would hold these meetings in the central pavilion of jonestown, and they would say we want to defend our community, we want to live. and, you know, you have to read the book, but eventually he was able to break them down by depriving them of food, of sleep, by telling them that they were surrounded by mercenaries in the jungle who were about to come in and attack them and torture their children. and he had, you know, his conspirators, he had his sons go into the jungle and shoot back
at the camp to make it seem like there really were people in the jungle about to attack them. so just the amount of planning and the orchestration that went into that final night are just astounding to me, the methodical nature of his breaking down the power, their will power, their fight, their psychological resistance to him. so i'm going to read to you really briefly about the first time he brings up the idea of a revolutionary suicide. and by the way, i should say, um, huey newton, the co-founder of the black panthers, wrote an autobiography called "revolutionary suicide," and what he meant by the term was the oppressed people should not
be passive if they are attacked by police or the oppressors, they should go down fighting instead of going down passively. well, jim jones took this and skewed it to mean that we're, you know, we are going to commit mass suicide to promote capitalism. he really, you know, took huey newtop's words and -- newton's words and twisted them into something altogether different. all right. so this happens on december 9, 1977, so a year before the actual deaths. on december 9 jim jones' mother died of emphysema in jonestown. a few hours later, an emotional jones summoned his followers to the pavilion. he described his mother's last moments as she gasped for air with her tongue hanging out. he invited people who knew her
well to take a last look at her. he said that in death she looked very well, very well, indeed. his mother was the one person jones allowed to call his bluff and get away with it. in jonestown when she overheard him bragging about shooting a wild turkey with a pistol at 200 yards' distance, she laughed and called over her daughter-in-law. that man didn't shoot any turkey. anyone knows you can't shoot anything with a pistol from 200 yards. when she died, her moderating influence vanished, and another cord tethering jones to reason snapped. a few weeks later in the middle of a rambling creed, he abruptly asked his followers: how many of you plan your death? there was a stunned silence. don't you ever plan your death,
he repeated impatiently? there's a number of you that do not lift your hand and say that you plan your death. you're gonna die. don't you think you should plan such an important event? he called on a 75-year-old texan named vera talley. sister talley, don't you ever plan your death? on a tape recording of the conversation, she sounds hesitant. no, she said finally. and why don't you, dear, jones asked. i don't know, i just hadn't thought about it. don't you think it's time to think about it? it's a terrible thing to have it be an accident like i saw my mother to be wasted and just laid in a box. it's kind of a waste, don't you think? the old woman was confused. she thought jones was talking about life insurance. [laughter] my husband quit paying it, and i didn't have no money to pay it,
and i just let it go, and i hadn't thought no more about it. i'm not talking about insurance, jones said. i'm talking about planning your death for the victory of the people, for socialism, for communism, for black liberation, for oppressed liberation. haven't you ever thought about taking a bomb and running into a ku klux klan meeting and destroying all the ku klux klan people? a microphone buzzed loudly, angering jones. he ordered the people sitting at the back to stop playing with their babies and to pay attention. maya imes, an 8-year-old biracial girl, raised her hand. she, too, was confused. what does planning your death mean, she asked sweetly? on tape her voice is shockingly innocent and clear. and his response to maya, jones launched into a diatribe whose
essence was captured in this sentence: a healthy person has to think through his death, or he may sell out. this was jim jones' deepest fear, that his followers would sell out or betray him if they left his church. he'd rather they die first. when somebody's so principled they're ready to die at the snap of a finger, he told his followers, and that's what i want to build in you, that same type of character. he began talking about various methods of dying. drowning, they say, is one of the easiest ways in the world the die. it's just a numbing kind of sleepy sensation. the crowd was solemn, and their lack of enthusiasm infuriated him. some of you people get so fucking nervous every time i talk about death, he shouted.
he stuck out his tongue and pretended to gag just as he'd seen his mother do as she died. the crowd laughed uneasily. an elderly woman refused to smile at his antics, and he turned on her. you're going to die someday, honey, he bellowed. you old bitch, you're going to die. this is taken from audiotape in jonestown. the fbi also collected about a thousand audiotapes that i was able to use for the first time, and, you know, i can't imagine being in that crowd that night when all of a sudden this man who you've respected, this preacher, this progressive, you know, figure in san francisco politics is suddenly saying, you know, you need to plan your death. and bellowing at a old woman,
calling her a bitch. i can't imagine what that would have been like, you know? sitting there with your child and hearing this conversation. so, again, i mean, that's what i hope people take away from my book, is a better understanding of what happened in jonestown and how, how trapped these people were, you know? he told another tape, you know, has him saying to people who want to leave we're not going to pay your f-ing way home. if you want to go home, you can swim home. you know, over and over he's telling them, no one is going home. we're all going to be here, and we're going to die together. and the thing is, there -- i've been to jonestown, i went down there in 2008, and it is so isolated even today. and in the '70s people had to take a two-day boat trip up
jungle rivers to get there, you know? and there was no phone, there was a hand radio -- ham radio, but he controlled who used it. he censored all of the mail going out, and that's another heartbreaking thing that fbi agents recovered were all of these letters saying, so and so, you need to come home. mom is dying, and she wants to see you before she goes, please. they were never given these letters. and their letters to their relatives and loved ones in their family were never delivered either. so i just hope, again, that by reading this people will gain a better understanding. and the phrase drinking the kool-aid is so especially ifive. i mean, most people have heard that phrase, but most young people, and especially people born after 1980 have no idea where it comes from, that it originates from this horrific
event in jonestown. so maybe after reading this book, that phrase will, you know, won't be bandied about as glibly as it is now. anyway, i'd like to open it up for questions. i think aye talked enough. i've talked enough. yes. [applause] >> thank you. >> an important work. in about 30 years ago i went to puma and did a piece for atlantic onage nearby. and so i'm a little more sip call than you are -- cynical than you are. i really feel it for the children who suffered this, but in terms of the adults, as i said, i've seen people succumb to the twin ideologies which have been so harmful to many people, the ideologies of
religion, coupled with the ideology of politics in and of themselves there are a pretty difficult pill and can be quite destructive to put them together as jones did. and you've got a brew that is extremely destructive. the question i have for you, the good thing is just leafing quickly through your book i see a lot of people who were held sacrosanct now who were involve inside helping to create this image of jones being an honorable and good and, quote, revolutionary person,
including moscone, harvey milk. sorry, they really helped him, and they deserve our scorn for that just as we praise them for other things. willie brown was involved in it and then gutter scum like angela davis and huey newton. and kpfa's news department which never ceased to praise jones because they saw him as a fellow
idealogue who professed what they did. so the question i have for you is have you gone to any of these prominent people and asked them how they could justify creating the myth of james jones that led so many people a cropper, including people like ann ha davis who should hang her head in shame? >> well, jones hood winked a lot of people, and as you say, moscone and mil, he got, you know, he got -- the politicians cornered him. they came to people's temple because jones had at his
command, you know, 3,000 foot soldiers that were willing to go out and canvas neighborhoods and people gone straights and even cross voting districts to get people elected. and i found a tape where moscone is basically saying, yes, you helped get me elected and, therefore, i am going to make you the head of the housing authority he -- which he did.
and you are right when these allegations of physical abuse and financial misdeeds happened, the slate that he helped elect, you know, mayor moscone, the district attorney joseph, harvey milk, they turned a blind eye to it. of course, milk and moscone were killed about ten days after the massacre happen. but, you know, you had jane fonda, willie brown, angela davis. you know, on the outside people's temping looked good. and i talk about in in the prologue that for me growing up as i did with a, you know, a black brother and always feeling like a misfit and longing for a place to belong, if i had come to a temple service, say on a sunday morning and seen this, i would have definitely have been interested. my brother david and i, you
know, i would have been interested because of his message of social justice, i would have been interested because there was real love between temple members. i mean, having grown up in the church, a church is so much more than just its leader. it's the relationship you have with the other congress regants and those, you know, your kids becoming friends with them. it's, you know, for like, for example, a young man like stanley clayton from oakland whose mother didn't give a damn about him and was stealing from grocery stores to get something to eat while his younger brother was crying with hunger, the temple offered him a place to sleep, the temple got him out of jail on early release. the temple encouraged him to get his ged. the temple ran all kinds of services, you know, drug rehab, it had child care for working moms, it had medical care for the elderly, impoverished
people. i mean, it looked really good on the outside. so, you know, i don't think -- i think it's kind of hard to blame these people. i mean, in retrospect, you know, yeah, you can say, yeah, jim jones was an evil man. but until marshall killduff broke the story about what was happening in new west hag zien and all of this -- magazine and all of this came out, you know, he really held a tight rein on communications and what was going on with the church. so angela wouldn't speak to me. she's a very busy woman. yes. >> i'm wondering about the -- thanks. i'm wondering about your research and how, how you were able to gain access to that, the fbi files, was that difficult, what the process was like for you? >> yeah. so what happened was, um, there
was a foia, freedom of information act, lawsuit that was filed by relatives of people who died in jonestown. and there is a professor of theology at san diego state university who had her two sisters killed this jonestown. -- in jonestown. they were in the leadership. so for her and her husband, this was kind of a personal effort, and they kept filing lawsuit after lawsuit against the fbi to get these files released. and then, you know, the fbi finally did release the files without an index. so it's, like, a meter that would start on -- a letter that would start on, say -- they released them on three cds, so a letter that started on cd one, page 238 would end on cd three, page 13. so they put all of this information together. and they and myself, we are the
only people that have read through these documents in their entirety, and a lot of them are just, you know, very tedious documentation like, you know, purchase orders and, you know, really dry stuff. but then every once in a while you come into something like, you know, this document which is the camp doctor who was in charge of trying to figure out how to kill everyone, right? so on wednesdays the camp doctor stopped delivering babies and suturing wounds and went into his lab and tried to figure out how to kill everyone. and this is one of the subplots that i just was like, wow, this is, this is stranger than fiction. so he tried to develop botulism and a staphylococci toxin and failed. he was growing these cultures in baby food jars that he elected there the -- collected from the
nursery. and in this memo he writes cyanide is up with of the most rapid poisons, i have gained more confidence in it. i would like to give about two grams to a large pig to see how effective our batch is, okay? so in these documents you can see who is responsible for what. and, like, larry shatt who few people have heard of, you know, is talking about, you know, killing off everybody in jonestown. and, you know, it was really interesting. there's another woman who was a probation officer here in california who was smuggling guns down to jonestown in shipping crates. she is now live anything upstate new york -- living in upstate new york, kind of disappeared into the woodwork as a lot of the temple leadership did after the massacre. she's actually about to get a rude surprise as a local reporter is on her tail.
but, you know, it was really fascinating, especially once they released the unredacted versions. you could see who was doing what and who was to blame for what. and so it took me a year just o piece these documents together and figure out, you know, put them in chronological order. everybody knows how jonestown ends, but they don't know how my people end. and hopefully, my people will engage you enough as to want you to, you know, read through an entire book and figure out what happens to them. >> my question is, um, i guess it has happened before not just with jim jones where, you know, you start out with good intent and then you get so carried away, and you're so kind of, um, mired in your ideology that you become eventually evil. and i was just wondering if that
was, you know, if jim jones went through a similar psychological transition where he genuinely, you know, was outraged by what was happening, and he wanted to fix that and then as he saw people were charmed by him, power got to his head. because it's so hard and fascinating to see someone, you know, who wants to do good in the world and then eventually kills all his followers. and that's still kind of so perplexing. so -- >> right. >> anyway, i was just wondering if, what, what you found out or, um -- >> i think it's an interesting question whether jones really believed in social justice and equality, or if in the '50s when he was starting his
ministry he kind of stumbled across this vulnerable group that wanted to hear this message, you know? and then in the '60s, african-americans who weren't happy with the advance of the civil rights movement, and here was this preacher that wanted to go farther and who was really out there and, you know, not militant like black panthers were, but speaking publicly and vehemently about the fact that, about race and racism in america. and i think that is an interesting question. i -- it's hard to say. he also was the first, his was the first family to adopt an african-american baby in indiana. so he integrated his own family. he later adopted kids from korea. and so his family was a reflection of his ideology, of his fated ideology. whether he really believed in
social justice to that point or whether he kind of built his church around the hope of his people, it's hard to tell. i do think that, you know, he looked to the preacher, the minister, the head of the church as this authority figure that he wanted to be. like the first time he went to church. it's like he, coming from this loveless household, wanted that type of -- he saw the preacher getting this respect and attention and affection from, you know, the congregation. and that's what he wanted for himself. and i think eventually that power and the control, you know, got the better of him. and even in indianapolis when somebody tried to leave his church, he was sending this man fevered notes saying, you know, it is god's will that you stay in my church. if you leave, something bad will happen to you.
so there's early evidence that he had this need to completely control his followers, and later that just became more exacerbated. yeah. >> [inaudible] a friend of a friend of mine knew jim jones back in the mend see know -- mend seen know county days and was enamored of him and his movement and contributed to it financially and what not. then at some point she became disillusioned with it, and my friend, you know, asked her why. and her response was that, um, she had become convinced that jones was mentally ill. and i just wondered if you had a comment, you know, on that.
he did change. >> right. well, quite clearly he was mentally disturbed. we have a psychiatrist in the crowd, maybe they -- [laughter] after you read the book, you can tell me. you know, and again, you -- the way he controlled people, the extent to can which he did it, i mean, he, he was growing this movement purportedly where it's either you were for equality, or you were against it. i mean, everything was kind of black and white with him. um, he -- people would turn over their real estate holdings and all of their wealth to the church and move into a temple commune. and one woman, hyacinth thrash,
has done that when she realizes something's wrong with jim jones, but her sister's in the church and really believes and gets angry every time, every time hyacinth tries to talk to her. and she's given all her worldly belongings to the church. she can't, she can't escape it. she doesn't know what to do, you know? so she figures she'll try jones town, if she doesn't like it, she'll come back and live with a nephew. well, she got down there, and jim jones is saying nobody's leaving, you know? it's hard, it's hard to say. there was an element especially among the leadership of people who knew jones well and knew that, for example, he was having sexual liaisons with both men and women as a control factor. you know, yet stayed in the church. i think as you got farther out to the rank and file, for example, he had a satellite
church in los angeles, and a lot of people from that church, they would see jim jones on sunday and wouldn't have anything to do with him the rest of the week. and they decided to go to jonestown, try it out for a month or something, take a leave of absence and all of a sudden were trapped down there having no idea what his plans were. so, yeah. [laughter] question. >> thank you. um, you mentioned a letter that somebody might send home saying my mother just died, and that jones was definitely opposed to anyone leaving the camp, and then you also mentioned that you thought even a year before this happened in '78 that when his mother died in '77, he was actually seriously contemplating, you know, and you mentioned the letter about the doctor, thinking up poison, so he was already planning to kill him.
but on the day that it happened, a plane landed on landing strip, representative rye ongot out -- ryan got out, several journalists from the examiner and the chronicle one of which was killed, i think the other one survived. but the thing is, it happened in a narrative sort of way. in other words, the day developed in its own way, suey generous, one of a sort. he may or may not have had these intentions to kill everybody, obviously, he had the poison, and he'd pumped them with the motivations why they should -- but on the question of revolutionary suicide, it's not just that they committed suicide, but they also committed several murders on that day, and there was a truck that went out to the landing strip that killed representative ryan and killed the journalist from the chronicle or the examiner, i forget which one it was. so, in other words, it was a combination of suicide and murder. and, of course, some of these people survived, like larry