tv Capital News Today CSPAN May 18, 2012 11:00pm-2:00am EDT
of the '92 election believe that we have to get the papers on site and if i may have to dig out of my files one example of this which was the main story in the paper in the first of april, just eight days before the 1992 election and the main story was in this evidence and it is the education minister with private education for the luxury of the 300 lb townhouse and 40,000-pound flat and branded a hypocrite for preaching socialism for the luxury of the homes. my wife and i between us have the houses. with the sun was doing in the
'92 election was working over each senior member of the labor front bench and this had an affect and if you're on the receiving end of it felt like power. it had an effect on the constituency from doing a meeting that wednesday, and you could feel support in the majority moving but if you then look this was minor. they had a consequence which talks about power. every burglar in west oxford share knew that the one day of the year we were not to be in the house was election night we got and a lot of property was stolen subsequently that is one of those things you get burgled. but the more important point was that mr. connect for example was an unjustifiably treated by the
sun over quite a period it did contribute to the defeat. i took that as power and we were there for once mr. blair had come into office in 94 we shared the same view without completely compromising ourselves we should do the best to get the papers it was better than the alternative that this was because i'd been through 18 years of opposition. >> i'm sure there was no question of completely compromising yourself. some might ask what about partially compromising yourself? >> i thought you were going to ask that. and as i -- the word came out of line of. it's more complicated than that. i mean, mr. blair was very much in favor of the new labor agenda, let me say so was i in terms of the crucial decision on that, which was to change clause four. i mean, i published a pamphlet about that in 1993, and nothing
what to do -- what ever to do with the sun or anybody else. in fact i think they all regarded the pamphlet as rather boring. i don't think there was any compromise of our integrity. some -- if you take the area that mr. blair had been involved with between 1992 and 1994 and then i took over from 94 to 97 which was law and order and crime, there were people who were saying our critics on the liberal left were saying we are only doing this because we wanted papers like the sun and the news of the world on the side. that wasn't true. i was doing it. mr. blair was because we believe in it. we had been profoundly dissatisfied with the very soft approach which the labor party had taken on the crime before that, which had lost support of an awful lot of our working-class supporters. further social contacts, paragraph 38, mr. straw.
you said during my period as justice secretary i would often travel to london on monday morning from west oxford shire station charles barry. mrs. rebekah brooks used the same train. after a while we made arrangements to meet up and sit together for the journey. but then you say i paraphrase, this stopped sometime in 2009 when she became chief executive. that i.t. was formally in september 2009. in general terms, were their discussions which you had with her on the train other than social or private? >> a went social, they were political, so there was sort of -- we would talk about what was in the papers, we would gossip about personalities and that
sort of thing. and a lot of the times we would carry on with our work. she had work to do, i had work to do. i would never put a figure to it, but there were all sorts of people around a year wigging saying there was a limit to what was going to say either way. otherwise it would have appeared in somebody else's newspaper. >> fair enough. and then you say, amongst many others, of course, you attended her wedding in june, 20009? >> yes, i did, yes. >> can i ask you a number of specific points which might arise out of the relationship with news international? >> was, as mr. lance price has said was the case, the labor party's policy on the cross media ownership quietly dropped within six months of the schwab island trip, which was in june or july 1995?
>> i don't know is the answer to that question because i don't have any direct involvement in the media policy come sali -- no, i wish i hadn't, but i haven't, and i simply -- i have no information on why was dropped at all. >> mr. dacre has claimed that sleeper could not have committed for this trip to war in iraq without the impeccable support of those international newspapers. do you agree with that view? >> no, i don't. i mean -- and let me say that since i was completely inserted in involved in the decision to commit troops in iraq, i can't ever remember a conversation along the lines of mr. dacre's, where we were discussing whether we went to the war or not and said, well, we can or we will newspaper or the rock press is going to be on the side. i mean, it would have been discussing it that had been part of the conversation. this is about putting british troops in harm's way and bluntly was much, much more serious than
that. so is the answer. >> of course you were foreign secretary at the time. we've heard evidence from somewhat unclear evidence, about three telephone calls, mr. blair, mr. murdoch in march, 2003. are you able to tackle any light on those? >> i'm sorry, mr. j, i'm not. i think i was vaguely aware that they'd taken place, but it's quite i think hard to get across to those who were not involved in the pace of events at that time. i mean, i -- of the beginning of march, on the fifth or sixth of march, i went off to new york for what turned out to be the last of the series of security council meetings, and then after that, yes have got back on the
saturday, i guess between then which would have been the eighth of march and the 17th when the cabinet made its decision to go to war mike holden plame was spent trying to get support of the security council for a second resolution and frankly i -- mr. blair was talking on the telephone was neither here or there unless it was about getting support for the second resolution. >> how important was it politically to get a newspaper on the side because the public was convinced? >> it was important to have the
mind that the whole community had said in a resolution 1441 that they posed a threat to the peace and security and 41 as far as i was concerned in the british government was concerned that had authorized the military action if they were to further breach which we still believe there was, so it was a huge rate of international opinion as was the opinion here in favor of it bench strongly in support of the
the reaction as well and is bound to affect the character of support from the newspapers in practice. >> may i move on to the topic of the media influence on public policy and first of all, the genesis of section 12 of the human rights act we have the text of section 12 to be the end point in the process. >> i will try not to. >> everybody following this will to understand the significance of section 12. it is a procedural provision dealing only with the circumstances where the high court is considering whether to grant any relief which might
it says that one was issued and i thought they had a partner, but they went on to say that the second one which you described is far more serious. it should be a public authority within the bill. now, the fact that this was part of the bill, but what we were trying to secure was without the impact of the bill so that they could be excluded from any adjudication of the complex. now, that was just impossible to me.
it could be incorrect that nobody knew that this would lead to a law. they said so. as i brought out in my lecture, that was discussed endlessly and parliament. to be truthful, the politicians, they would like the end of privacy, but have the means -- it is important for it a politician to have privacy. it was important on the bench for politicians to have jobs. everybody knew what was happening. >> the purposes of section six, it is a matter of on the principles of jurisprudence.
>> there was a great debate about drafting the bill. you have a list of public authorities as happened with the legislation, it is a matter of certainty whether an authority is public or not. where is the human right advocates, it could be constructed either way. there was reference to what the definition of public authority wise. it is much broader than that. and what that pcc had to work out, the authorities had to follow the obligation of the human rights act. in the conventional articles.
press commission. >> the other way around isn't it because he couldn't really do this as the chairman of the press commission to be dependent, isn't it in this personal capacity. >> my recollection is the correspondence signed by him in the capacity of the chairman. >> that itself raises the interesting question. >> i'm not going to the historical volume it's not a private enterprise is the minister spending their time talking with a personal he had a
very influential position to speak on behalf of the press and i worked on the basis that if i could swear him i would square most sections of the press which is what i wanted to do. >> i understand that and that's how it worked and it's quite clear looking at the documents that you provided for the relevant period that is exactly what happened, but it does raise the question on the future as to whether that is the appropriate role for somebody that holds that position. >> i'm sorry, yes, i agree if for the future there is, as it will be come a very different system to deal with the press complaints that that person were in the clause i judicial
position, and that should be very separate from somebody who is to represent the wide interest to the press and campaign the changes in the legislation, i would accept that. >> there is a fairly sophisticated points made. >> i think it's fair to say although she was quibbling as to whether section 12 would have much substance or a fact there was generally speaking the close support for this clause. >> the advantage of dealing with him was that of course he had been leading figure in the previous conservative of ministration's come and i still have a good relationship and high respect for him and i said
his successor as the chairman of the pcc wouldn't have ended up in the state that it is, but i don't know that we've had this expenses conversation by ford on the basis that if lord wakeham said yes, he would certainly be delivering the press and almost certainly delivered and the conservative front bench as well and that was on said. >> you made it explicit was to underline your government's commitments for the need to preserve self regulation. can we see that in the third paragrah on six of 21 and indeed the fourth paragrah would you agree? >> yes. >> that was of the view that we were taking a the time. the pcc had been in proved.
there was some good evidence not the rate at which lord wakeham as operating that the pcc was becoming effective, and we all knew that we were going to end up in the privacy and we all have work to do at that stage to start on an agenda on the regulation in the press there would be no point, it certainly wasn't in my mind to this gimmick there certainly was of labor party manifesto commitment in 1997, and the death of princess diana at the end of august, i think 1997, did that cause any change of thoughts or not? >> not directly, no pity i mean, obviously the sort of media surrounding the was terrible, but not -- had not directly. and i think insofar as we had that conversation and the government, the view was let's see where this gets too. the pcc plus a developing law of
privacy might work. some would say it's the traditional british approach, let's see how wall develops. you know it's going to move in a certain direction, and the ramifications of that can be seen over the forthcoming years. >> is, i mean it's not -- if i may say so, it's not a bad approach to things gradually, because the risks of disaster are reduced. it is probably covering the issue on section 12. may i address now the amendments to the data protection act, 1998?
first 14 months this is handled not by the leader of the house, but i became leader of the house two days before publication of this report in the first week in may 2006 and stayed in that position until the end of june june 2007. so i inherited it, that i only agreed that we ought to increase the penalty. >> was it then government thinking that it's simply a question of increasing the penalty rather than changing the test in section 55. the test is purely objective one. do we know in section 78, which is to designate back of the subject you can take into account the reasonable belief. >> what the government steal, all i need to increase his capacity without introducing this part subject to.
>> the price objective test came later. >> is part of the ultimate compromise. >> u.s. commissary. the case for increased sanctions was that there was purely financial, then the law is quite clear uncomfortable territory now. the last quite clear you have to have regard to names and people have little means and broke the law in this way, than actually there is very little that can be done by way of sanctions and that was so whether you are doing it because you want to find about my daughter's boyfriend, for example, or whether you are doing it for industrial or commercial reasons.
>> you're right. if i may say so, the expert. but my view is bad -- the maximum sentences laid down by parliament for very rarely applied by the court. they convey a message by the relative seriousness, which therefore the public attached to that particular transgression. i regret the fact that in the protection that, which is also a bill which i put through, we have not spotted bass penalty was too late. >> but if a pickup point that was made disgustingness i think with mr. granddad actually, if you're doing it for the purposes
of business and add some high volume, is sent to which society should disapprove for rather more than might be for those that range of senses that are purely fiscal penalty. >> i entirely agree. let me say this is a great resource, what i have heard. but in the light of what we think may have happened, that the penalty felt should be higher still, tougher still than two years. but certainly i think the case adding to the penalty at its maximum is very strong. >> on the basis, you really identified that then the courts in its position to calibrate the gravity of the offending and in
appropriate cases to discharge or fine or alternately a custodial sentence. >> indeed, sir. >> as you say in paragraph 3, the press subject to. when you refer to the threats they are, your people to be a bit more specific. >> well, i don't know. the people who came to see me where mr. baker, mrs. brooks, the telegraph -- the chief executive and sometimes dyed black hood then the secretary at the pcc and i think was advised there to the telegraph weekly.
those were the court. but i understood that they were representing him the views of the national press as a whole. i had no reason to think that they wear. >> indeed the most powerful figures who attended bcc. we saturated prints click >> can we see your credentials? they were powerful figures who were representing. >> you need that many knew that's what they were. >> it wasn't an issue. >> in paragraph 83 the ministers sponsoring the bill, murray eagle had done 2008, which we noted the meeting on tap 44. i don't think it's necessary to terry to. we notice the threat had a
powerful voice on medication. then moving forward, in fact gone 84, you match a radically with mr. baker, mr. burnt out, mrs. brooks. -- >> and that is to erie and the letter you wrote on the 12th of february, exactly clear from a letter sender to 36, when the meeting was over the lecture we have a dinner. >> i don't think this over lunch or dinner. i think was in my office. i'm almost certain it was in my office. >> if we could look at the text of the license. he said under criminalizing
product under the law, although we do understand your immediate concerns are generally. we have no wish for responsible journalism and when the bosses were designed to have that effect, were not aware the section 55 has caused any problems since the dpa came into force. the penalties were proposed and strongly argued for by the information commissioner and their privacy. and then if i can look sick science into the next paragraph, i reviewed the proposal the important points which you and others may come as i explained to me that, the increasingly consider inclusion of the beliefs of someone at the time and offenses committed and was
still considerable anxiety that the potential impact of the measure at their four cases considering slower sign. alongside this, i'm faced with the overwhelming need to achieve since may 2008 when the existing legal restrictions against officers are otherwise terminated, taking out the effect gives recommendations for colleagues and i will be back in challenge. on one hand you've got the press stirring up trouble, and making the argument you expect them to make in a moment. then you say even more importantly you have to get the bill. because these other provisions. is that it? been a guest comment it obviously was extremely partial for others outside and for mr. thomas to comprehend because
it was my fault i'm the author. but it made me recall that at the end of august 2007, the association called an unlawful one day national strike and they give us 15, 15 minutes notice. it let to the salary of lancaster farms in great talent and a number of other chill spirit it was completely contrary to agreement which the association had voluntarily sign. please don't ask me what the acronym stands for because i can't remember. they had voluntarily signed to return for the statutory bar on industrial action being taken from the statute appeared now
they broke that agreement him also had given notice that they'd be terminated in any event and the date of termination on the eighth of may. so it's absolutely imperative whatever hath been but i got this bill and an inch of the offense by the offense by the eighth of may because we knew anyway this state of mind of the leaders that they would go on -- almost certainly go on strike the next day with the disaster. so afraid other things then became subordinate to us. that's life. that's politics. so what was in my mind at this stage as i might have to withdraw to increase the penalty for this legislation and then find another bill to put him in the following session if that was what was going on there. >> will just take a few minutes
>> there is this myth, always have and to establish this price for peace out of guilt of the invention of dynamite. i think i say in my book that it's hard to know exactly what is in a man's head and heart, but this seems not to be true. it seems like he was quite proud of his achievements in the area of explosives. a total recall infrastructure, canals, tunnels, railroads. >> when people are saying to him, don't take the vice presidency. right now you've are the most -- you are a powerful majority leader. don't take the vice presidency. you won't have any power. johnson says power is very purpose, meaning i could make power in any situation. his whole life i said nothing in his life previously makes that seem like he's most because
that's exactly what he had done all his life. >> the pentagon said that china's military has begun to undertake new historic missions outside of east asia, marking a shift in chinese military strategy. this came as part of the defense department in a report on chinese solitary capabilities and strategy. the acting deputy assistant strategy for east asia and asia pacific affairs spoke with journalists about the report in this half-hour briefing. >> thank you. thank you very much. i appreciate the opportunity to come in this morning and preview today in the 2012 edition of our report to congress on military and security developments
involving the people's republic of china. national defense authorization act of fiscal year 2000 as amended in fiscal year 2010 mandates that we publish this report in both the unclassified and classified form. the report is the department of defense product produced in partnership between the office of the secretary of defense for policy and the defense intelligence agency that is transmitted to congress the secretary of defense. as of the extensive coordination process commotion quiz department of state, homeland security, energy commerce, treasury, intelligence committee, national security so reflects views that are broadly held across the u.s. government. they intend to report to be factual. we try to maintain a very analytic and object of tone and let the facts speak for themselves. the report is available online as of this morning he may have noticed that it's got a new look and a new format. we've streamlined and consolidated the report in
keeping with dod wide guidance for how we are handling reports to congress. however, we continue to address the same range of questions and issues as requested by the congress in the legislation. president barack obama and president hu jintao in 2011 committed to work together to build a cooperative partnership based on mutual respect and mutual benefit in order to permit the common interest of both countries and opportunities. this report highlights where we see the military in china having today, both the strengths and weaknesses and the opportunities and potential challenges we see going forward. with that i would like to summarize trends and developments we have seen and reported on this year. first, china will is pursuing a long-term comprehensive monetary to improve capacity of the peoples army to fight and win what they call local wars under
conditions of informative station or high-intensity information centric regional operations of short duration. they see the modernization is an essential component of their strategy to this china's national and environmental street the first two decades of the 21st century. but this development, china's presence is expanding and creating economic and diplomatic interests. as these interests have grown and as china has assumed the roles and responsibilities in the international community, china's military modernization is also turning creasing extent focusing on investment that are enabling the forces to conduct a wide range of missions including those for from china. even as the pla today is contended its missions and preparing for contingencies in the taiwan strait appears to be the principal focus of driver for much of the investment. over the past year though, the
relations have improved and continue to improve, aided by the reelection of taiwan president, china's military shows no sign of slowing efforts to prepare for taiwan strait contingent fees. in addition to taiwan, china places a high priority on its merits and territorial claims in recent years they've begun to demonstrate a more routine and capable presidents and the south china sea and east china sea. notable as well are pla operations as part of a china's present, hu jintao refers to as the new historic missions and in 2011, the pla demonstrated capability to conduct deployments in military operations at great distance from china, including in the areas of noncombatant evacuation, counter piracy in peacekeeping. subversion opportunity here. there's an opportunity to partner with us in other countries to face the challenges
in the country. at the same time, china's leaders in 2011 sustained investment in his nuclear forces, short and medium-range ballistic missiles, this aircraft and integrated air defenses, cruise missiles and surface combatant and counter space and cyberwarfare capabilities, which appeared to enable what he called anti-access an area denial missions are pla strategists refer to as counter intervention operations. in january 2011 flight to china's next generation fighter aircraft, they said they'd highlighted the ambition to produce advanced fighter aircraft. they expected j-20 to achieve the capability no sooner than 2018. in august 2011, china commenced the trials of its first aircraft carrier which approaches from ukraine in 1998. the aircraft to become operationally available to china's navy by the end of this year on the boy expected to take several additional years for
aircraft to achieve a minimal operation capability of the aircraft carrier. this comprehensive military modernization supported by robust increases in defense resources. on march 4 this year, beijing announces an 11.2% increase in military budget from everything publicized budget to 106 billion u.s. dollars, continuing within two decades of sustained military budget growth. however, estimated china's actual defense expenditure remains difficult to toylike of accounting transparency, china's incomplete transition from a command economy and china's public defense expenditure also doesn't include large categories of expenditure areas. so for example, lester's public defense budget cost $91.5 billion but all of a sudden military expenditure for lester includes $180 billion. i don't have the calculations for the current year. while we welcome actions china has taken to improve openness in
the amount of information made available about military, many uncertainties remain, which only underscores importance of building a sustained and sensitive military dialogue. in this report we describe her efforts to work towards a healthy stable, reliable and continuous military to military relationship with china, which we view as an essential component of a positive corporate comprehensive u.s.-china relationship. some of the highlights of the key engagements of last year include dissipation by china's deputy chief of general staff in third annual strategic economic dialogue in may of 2011, which also included participation in the inaugural strategic security dialogue held for the first time on the sidelines of last year's strategic and economic dialogue. we'll saw the annual defense policy coordination talks and disaster management exchange in a meeting under the auspices of military maritime. now the prc postponed several events that were scheduled for
the end of the year, citing a september 2011 taiwan arms sales announcement. however, working level contacts in high-level dialogue continues in december 27 the undersecretary defense for policy than, michele flournoy travel to beijing to participate in the annual u.s.-china defense talks. more recently following a successful visit to the united states by china's vice president, xi jinping, they constructed a military to military engagement plan for the remainder of this year and this robust plan includes a mix of high-level visits, operational engagements and academic exchanges. just a few weeks ago, the united states and china held the four strategic and economic dialogue and a second round of strategic security dialogue and a shame. as many beano, china's defense minister, liang guanglie traveled the second week of may interindustry preferring the need for continuous strategic communication and the need to enhance strategic mutual trust through dialogue and
constitution. in the future, we are looking towards u.s. pacific commander admiral locklear to travel this summer as the secretary panetta has been invited to visit china and the second half of 2012. we'll continue to use military engagement and several means to demonstrate u.s. commitment to the security of the asia-pacific region and will continue to encourage china to play a constructive role in the region. in conclusion, the report has a lot of interesting information we hope will continue in a responsible way to the debates ongoing today with respect to china's military modernization. so with that brief summary, i would like to take a number of your questions. >> david, boppers from ap. on the topic of cyberespionage promotion mentioned very prominently in the report, d.c. signs of an accelerating the capability in particular as it
could be applied if the u.s. target? >> well, we continue to highlight in this report some of the concerns that we have about china's investment and cybercapabilities. we note to china's investing in not only capabilities to better defend their networks, but also looking at ways to use either for offensive operations. we also highlight a number of theories say barak kennedy focused on computer network exploitation. if that continues to be a concern of ours and we have raised it and talk to the chinese about it during the strategic security dialogue in beijing as well as secretary panetta raised the general john and their visits. this is something we continue to pay careful attention to. >> doesn't seem to be accelerating their development of those capabilities? >> add-on specific data on accelerating. he seems to be sustained in his continued efforts in this area
reflecting on the importance they place a non-cyberwarfare, but i can't say whether or not it's accelerating. >> hi, betty lin of the world journal. can you elaborate on that a2ad's capabilities and what he discussed with them and what was their reaction and not the u.s. and chinese neighbors address this issue? and chinese just complained to his trail you about the u.s. marines -- [inaudible] >> well, you know, as they talk about in our report, we see that china's investing in a whole range of capabilities as part of the comprehensive military modernization program. some of the areas we pay special attention to her capabilities that we would consider anti-access area denial types of operations. there is not one particular weapon and we see china investing in a range of layered capabilities that start with
under siege where come and benefits inside wearing an advanced surface combatant, advances in their capabilities are integrated air defense or to contact, you know, precision strikes at great distance from china. we have concerns because these types of capabilities could, if they are employed, affect the ability of our forces or other forces in the region to be able to operate in the western pacific. so we highlight that is sent a note we are paying very, very careful attention to an something that was raised in the context of broader global concern that we have about anti-access or denying capabilities in the january strategic. >> paul eckert of reuters you didn't mention the opening remarks that the report contains considerable language to the
dual use technology and china's active leveraging of its commercials economy for military to find military technologies. are there traits policy implications are there things depending on what they want to see as the u.s. deals with china on the trade front, where there is pressure to relax export controls on certain pressure and constant requests from china? >> this report does not address the question of export controls, but we do pay attention to china's investment in the interest in improving its own defense industry and its capability to produce indigenous or their own domestic variants of a variety of military equipment. obviously, we pay attention to the dual use aspects of it. in particular, we know in some areas where china's commercial industries have bleed over or
spinoff effects that can benefit and enhance their defense interest. shipbuilding is one example. so we pay attention to that in this report, but we don't deal with the question of export control on that site. >> jon harper, asahi shimbun are they working on the armed drones and how would you compare their capabilities with u.s. capabilities in this area at this point? >> well, we know china is interested in developing unmanned air systems and they have in the past acquired a number of different types of uavs or unmanned aerial vehicles, both from foreign sources they have israeli made a harpy uavs and domestic variants
of uavs. this does make an assessment between china's capabilities for unmanned air systems in the u.s. capabilities, but that is married to china's interested in developing those. >> yeah, i am kitty wang from ntd tv. my question is the sudden i released a report earlier this year in china was able to develop -- was able to develop an indigenous technology in a military weapon faster than u.s. expect it. so i'm wondering, what's your response and how do you do? do you -- [inaudible] >> i'd like to let u.s.-china economic security commission report speaks for itself. though we have seen in the past instances where china has developed weapons assistance capabilities either earlier than we expected or that we were surprised ourselves. several years ago we were surprised by the current survey in a new class of machine that
we hadn't seen before and i think that is something that we have to anticipate and expect. we are paying very careful attention to the military modernization and we been surprised in the past and may be surprised and turned for the new weapons and equipment in the future. but part of this report and part of what many professionals in intelligence may do is minimize the extent to which we are surprised by it. >> mike others from the times. you mention your last report that the pla set up its own special cyberunit to develop cyberwarfare technologies. have you seen the subelements of that and you see it as perhaps part, potential emergence, threatening type knowledge she of the national security infrastructure?
>> we continue to see china expressing interest in making operations in cyberspace. and that is something that we pay very, very careful attention to. there is the potential for these types of operations to be very disruptive, not only in a conflict. it could be very disruptive to the united states, but other countries as well. it's one of the things about military operations in cyberspace is that can be cascading effects hard to predict. we do have concerns and this is why we have created joint military and civilian platforms like the strategic security dialogue to talk about issues that we deal with this potential having potential for friction in the u.s.-china relationship. fiber is one of those areas we don't select our top with china of space, nuclear and missile defense areas as well as part of the strategic security dialogue.
>> you mention that last year the defense spending is almost double what to acknowledge that was. can you give a specific example that means they are spending on this year. i know you didn't want to speculate on the number, but what they spend this year that was not publicly acknowledged? >> for example, we think some of the nuclear forces modernization occurs off budget. some research and development that goes to their defense industry rios at the comes from a different budget, a different account of their overall national budget. the foreign acquisitions comes from a different account as well and there's a number of local contributions that go to local military forces in china as well. when you add all that together, that helps us to develop a more accurate estimate of the totality of military
expenditures. >> can you give us an idea of what those are? >> i actually don't have data on what they're currently negotiating. in the past they've required a number of complete platforms from russia, for examples, signed sovremenny-class, some keough class submarines, [su]-27 and [su]-30, so they've acquired weapons systems that also include foreign acquisition in defense related technologies as well. >> thank you. jim garamone, afps. used the term and is in the report to, informative station. what exactly is that? been doing this 30 years and never heard anything remotely like that. >> well, the best way that i could explain it would be, this is how china is interpreting the revolution affairs.
this is china's interpretation and understanding of the role of information and information systems not only as modern combat, but a fundamental attribute of modern warfare and they watched very carefully u.s. military forces from the first persian more in 1991 up until our current operations today. one of the things that it pla has consistently highlighted is the rule of advanced information technology, not only for intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance plus enabling five years and when they talk about fighting and winning local wars under conditions of informative station, that is a type of war fighting environment that they are talking about. >> thank you. >> marcus weisberger with defense news. you joke about the j-20 earlier.
can you talk about what i define as an iac 2018 -- >> now, we don't expected to have an operational capability before 2018, so that's what we expected to have an operational capability and that reflects our judgment and interpretation of how far they are a long and doing the research and development and flight testing of the prototypes. you know, in terms of having an operational capability, we are talking about having a sufficient -- sufficient numbers of the platform committee integrated weapons systems to conduct the types of missions that sell firewood be designed for. i have to differ on further specifics. that is something you have detached the air force about. >> hayek, kristina wong with the
"washington times." i think you mention china projecting its power are beginning to project its power outside into libya. is that a concern for the u.s.? >> we continue to watch as china's military is developing and as i indicated at the top, we see the pla contending with this new set of missions that the president and the chairman and who shintaro has given to them. we see their opportunities to be able to partner with china and a variety of different ways, highlighting piracy as a common threat and, challenge that all nations face but truly you no one nation can capture on its own parent would like to have a conversation with china and china's military on how we can build the type of cooperative capacity to where we can work together in support of a common
object is. obviously we have concerns about china's activities that would run counter towards greater cooperation that is some thing that will continue to monitor and talk to them about. >> had a penny any such trends at the operations that run counter to our interests? >> we highlight in this report as in previous reports, some of the areas where we do have concerns. we have concerns in china's investment capabilities, precisely to support anti-access. we have concerns about china's investment and take allergies and capabilities to deny others access and use of space.
safeguarding peace and promoting common development. and so, we see the pla adapting to these missions and looking at ways to rate further and further from china. we see an opportunity to work with china as they are adapting to these munitions. we see as china has greater capacity and capability to operate at distances from china and has the responsibility also international norms and rules and do support the international community's interest in peace and stability. we see opportunities to work with them and would like to continue doing those things we have that counter piracy, for example where we can cooperate. >> very positive potential. there's also potential challenges. >> yoso furumoto, japan's mainichi newspaper. going back to cyberattacks come in this year's report states many of which are written in
native within china, this expression in the last year, some of which will appear to have originated and why specifically will change this expression. >> i wouldn't read too much into that. we have concerns about a number of computer network operations and activities that appear to originate from china that effect dod now works at night is over trying to highlighting the report, that we see there's a number of these operations that appear to originate from china. as we learn more about them, we have a better understanding of the nature of this operation and that helps say with greater confidence.
>> the chinese government or the china -- are they coming from the chinese government? >> i think i just sat in china. >> but i am also asking the nisei from china, you may chinese government. >> to be clear, i just said it comes from china. i didn't specify the specific attribution, but we have concern about a number of potential -- this particular operations that appear to originate in china. >> otto kreisher w-whiskey power magazine. i haven't had a chance to read the report. on anti-access area denial weapons there's been some question as to the status of the carrier killer of long-range ballistic missile. is this report deal with whether that is operational? >> we highly continued development of the anti-ship ballistic missile or the df-21d. it's got a limited operational
capability, and i think that's reflected in the report. they continue to work on and develop that and deploy that. and i think that's -- one more? >> luis martinez of abc knows. when he spoke about ioc of the j-20 come he talked about it being ready for the missions it was designed for. i believe it's a stealth aircraft, and attack aircraft. are you talking about any game changing offensive weapon in the region quite >> we have to continue to watch this as it develops. it's still in the prototype phase, so we'd like to continue to monitor it and monitor developments on it to understand exactly what it china may intend to use it for and i don't want to speculate for what the specific missions may be. >> okay, sir, really appreciate
it. thank you for coming out early again on a friday morning and anything else you would like to say to wrap it up quick >> now, thank you very much. and appreciate it. and i hope you get a chance to review the report this weekend. [laughter] >> thank you very much. [inaudible conversations] >> when immigrants start to show up in significant numbers, which is somewhat the case in the
1820s and 1830s, but really very much the case in the 1840s and afterwards, they show up in a political environment in which they're already qualified to vote as soon as they become citizens. to get a sense of the politics we talk about, this is an invention from harper's weekly, just after election time and it shows a fill-in and a polling place. if you want to go, you see the doorway all the way in the back. you have to go to go in there to vote. >> i work a lot now especially on the bill of our new site with this younger generation of digital natives. and from our point of view, they feel like old media is insufficiently fact checked. one of the things that drives them crazy is anything that
doesn't have a link to the source. so actually been inaccurate with your sourcing is much harder online than it is in print because you can just go check the link right away. and i think the internet community keeps you alive -- can keep you alive are honest. >> both the house and senate were cannot separate versions of the 2013th farmville. the crimefighter bill expires at the end of september. today house agriculture subcommittee took up session dealing with biofuels. they also look to water and soil conservation. this is two and a half hours.
>> good morning, everyone. at this hearing of the subcommittee on conservation energy and forestry will discuss energy and force to programs and events of the 2012 farmville will come to order. first of all, let me extend my apologies. those have a way of getting in the way of things here, and so i apologize for the delay of the convening of this that committee hearing. i really appreciate the patience of all of those who are here, certainly our witnesses and we are looking forward to hearing your testimony. the started by saying, you know, this is the final hearing of the senate committee -- hearing that the subcommittees will hold review this farmville tester
review the farmville progress of our writing legislation next month. we have witnesses from usda testified before the senate committee last summer, offering information on the scope and purpose of each programs and today we hear from stakeholders to work with these programs and can offer insight on these two and heard the functionality. the first energy qaeda was written in 2002 farm bill to help spur development of renewable fuels across rural america and is designed to help develop renewable fuels and increase energy efficiency as well as energy supplies for farmers and rural americans. the two 2008 bill expanded and made $1 billion in mandatory funding to existing and new energy programs. this money was provided for the purpose of biofuels beyond corn ethanol. very many examples
i should note that the last two farm bill's were written during more favorable budgetary times than the situation we find ourselves today with the federal deficit increasing national debt. indeed 37 programs on farmville do not have a budget baseline beyond its expiration, including every core program and energy title. this means not only will they not have the $1 billion made available for the last farmville , but will not have allocated any mandatory money for continuing these programs. this is a tremendous challenge any siskel times as we look for ways to cut spending and make government more efficient yet still achieve our desired goals. our panel will offer feedback on what is most important event in the energy title given budget constraints we
though many of the forestry programs do not need to be reauthorized, it's important for us to review these programs to ensure they are carried out in a manner consistent with the purpose. we will hear ideas for improving program delivery for forest landowners in this and the timber industry and will also hear about tools to promote harvesting, which is critical for forest health across america. in addition, our witnesses in the second panel will discuss related topics such as how forestry fits into discussion of energy and conservation programs and regulation of forest logging roads. i like to briefly address the topic of forest road regulations and say no to fix several of witnesses today. i've been very concerned about this matter since the ninth circuit ruled last year that forest roads can be considered a point source under the clean
water act and therefore subject to permitting process before any trees can be cut. the ninth circuit decision has been appealed to the supreme court and the court does not choose to hear the case is likely the epa will move forward with applying decision nationwide. putting a tremendous economic burden on workers for and everyone who depends on these groups feared this would be an unnecessary action given the best management practices administered by states since 1976 that worked effectively and not put an undue burden on the industry. we will continue to monitor developments sep news for the nationwide permitting process i believe congress must actively clarified state specific practices and adequate for protecting water sources. further regulations are necessary and will carry a heavy burden for rural america. what you think of witnesses and i look forward to working with you as we move forward in the
process and i now yield for purposes of an opening statement to the ranking member, mr. holden. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for having this hearing today that they could think of witnesses and guests for being here as well. this presents an important opportunity for members of the subcommittee to look at usc energy programs and events over the next farmville. it includes many new provisions to include agriculture will play a role in moving towards energy independence. it also expanded many renewable energy programs originally authorized in 2002 farm though. 2008 moved towards advanced biofuels by promoting research, development and demonstration of biomass renewable energy. it also provided close to $1 billion in investment demonstrating to a promising but fragile industry our commitment commitment -- demonstrating to renewable energy production. unfortunate implementing many
energy title programs has been slow, leading to uncertainty in an industry we intended to strengthen and support. it's also unfortunate a farm bill title does not have mandatory money for programs once it expires. this puts us in a difficult situation, and made even more so during this challenging fiscal environment. similarly, the forestry title impacts land management in the 155 national forests in the national forests or stands does not have any mandatory son team. accomplish our goal of a well-managed agency dedicated to forest stewardship that continues to meet the needs of present and future generations we must make sure that forestry title policies are fulfilling the mission of the quality land management. at the same time we have to ensure that forest land owners continue to have access to conservation programs in order to further private land conservation to sustain healthy
productive forest and expand renewable energy we must all work together to make searching we spend taxpayer dollars wisely. thank you, mr. chairman. i look forward to your inner witnesses. >> i thank the gentleman. the chair would request that other members submit opening statements for the records. the witnesses may begin her testimony to ensure there is ample time for questions. but would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses who are now seated at the table. the first panel will be hearing are joined by the honorable jim greenwood, a pennsylvania congressman and have enjoyed the opportunity to work with going back to a state legislature days. he is currently president and ceo of the biotechnology industry organization located here in washington d.c. were also joined by mr. ryan
stroschein. excellent. you come only in with this world and leave with one thing and that's her name so i hate to mention method that. somewhat of a neighbor of mine, neighboring just over the line from pennsylvania and geneva county, mr. steve reinford, honoring operator of wrightwood farms. mr. jerry taylor, chief executive operator mfa oil company, oil biomass loc in columbia, missouri and mr. jerry haer, bio diesel toward washington d.c. thank you for being here and bring expertise and experience to set committee hearing. congressman greenwood, please begin when you're ready.
[inaudible] >> general tommy out of this. >> i usually have somebody do that for me. >> mr. chairman thompson in breaking member hold an undistinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you i appreciate the opportunity to be here today. i'm the president and ceo of the biotechnology industry organization. bio is the world's largest biotechnology organization with an 1100 members worldwide. with its broad membership qaeda innovative industrial and agricultural biotechnology companies are developing new feedstocks and biological catalysts that production of advanced biofuels, renewable chemicals and bio-based products. because these feedstocks manufacturing methods and products based on plants and biological processes that they are more efficient, sustainable
and environmentally friendly. importantly the development use of biomass for fuels and chemicals is an american bio-based economy by necessity cannot be outsourced to other countries. 10 years ago this week, less than a year following the attacks of september 11, president bush signed into a farm bill that for the first time ever is the vital role in american farmers and foresters can and must play in producing domestic energy and therefore proving national security and rural economic prosperity. because a bipartisan congressional support in 2002 and again during the two decimate farm bill, agricultural energy programs are revitalizing rural communities, reducing firmer dependence and commodity support programs in ushering a new generation of advanced biofuels, renewable chemicals and bio-based products to the cost of commercialization.
in short, the farm bill energy programs are working and member companies begin to put steel in the ground. please allow me to share with you a few examples. there is the first slide. and he is bio and nuclear and energy are preparing to open the indian river county iowa energy center near dearer beach florida in the next two weeks. the refinery is a major landmark of this country. it is the first commercial cellulosic refinery. as you can see, is for real. it's a lot of steel in the ground. the bio refinery is a valuable energy initiatives, helped obtain debt financing from a foreign credit tea with a long history of working with usda lending programs. blending in turn created over $130 million in private projects that will produce
based in lamborn fell away leveraging the refinery assistance program to secure private capital for commercial scale cellulosic by yo refinery in greene county alabama and. it's expected to create as many as a thousand new jobs. farmville energy programs such as the market space program are also fostering innovation and domestic job creation in the renewal call chemicals products sector. the members investing in the
united states by building a $30 million a pound per your commercial cynic acid lay-bon keogh refinery in lake providence louisiana. the market's program is expanding consumer awareness of these promising alternatives to petroleum derived chemicals, products through consumer labeling and preferred comes procedures. opening the refinery program to renewable chemicals for further accelerating these promising technologies. my written testimony you have before you include several additional examples of the tremendous impact energy programs are having in rural economies ha. it's a mocking the potential lack of culture to create new opportunities like these for their role economic prosperity in energy security. for in bill tener to begin such as the bio refinery program and
the markets pergamon combination with the complementary federal policy like the renewable fuel standard are supportive policies and speeding technologies to commercial reality. it's vital for the nation's future that we continue investments in america's energy and agricultural futures. as the senate agricultural committee acknowledged it passed mandatory funding for these programs and the bipartisan wilkie that passed the committee last month on the vote 16 through 05. to reauthorize the energy programs with meaningful mandatory funding. thank you mr. sherman. >> please go ahead proceed with your system money for five minute testimony. >> thank you, chairman thompson, a ranking member, good to see you again. i appreciate this opportunity. my name is ryan, co-director of the agricultural energy
coalition. i also was raised on a farm in south dakota which my family still operates and i've seen firsthand the positive impact of renewable energy production and the economies. the agricultural is agricultural renewable energy and environment award positions and private companies that represent a broad spectrum of renewable energy efficiency and advanced biofuel power and product which created in part to support the important energy programs contained in the farm bill towards continuation of the founding of the programs and to promote policy changes would make them even more effective. in the 2002, 28 farm bill's bipartisan majorities in congress recognized the potential for american farmers, ranchers, land owners and entrepreneurs to create clean domestic renewable energy products by providing significant resources to the programs in the energy title. the foundational policies transform the promise of an emerging sustainable agricultural sector into a growing reality.
a continued commitment to accelerate the momentum and it's a vital component of the all of the above energy strategy that has significant bipartisan support in congress. across the country we've already seen successes from these initiatives as pointed out. first of the kind refineries would be producing and fenced biofuels and florida and elsewhere and wind turbines are powering farms, ranches and businesses remaining in california. solar systems are used purposes and products such as plastics are being produced in states like pennsylvania and michigan and ohio and other places for industrial of applications and the investments delivering the benefits have been a relatively modest. the farm bill allocated only seven tenths of 1% of its total funding to the policy programs as a result of that investment programs have a funded project some of 50 states and leverage tens of millions of dollars in
the state and private sector investments that wouldn't have helped these programs. it's also a significant job creator estimates the by a refinery programs alone have the potential to create as many as 700,000 jobs. the market's progress estimated to have the ability to create 100,000 new jobs and these programs along with their role energy for america program is along the core program that our coalition is supporting and urging the congress to fund with of an ongoing commitment to this effort america's leadership position on the bio product innovation bloody road race to commercialize the clean energy technology this would undermine our economic energy in their mental and national security and could put the u.s. in the position of importing the technologies from foreign companies in the years ahead. they cover the entire renewable
energy by yo product energy efficiency landscape. wind power works well in the midwest and solar power works across the country in the west and the south. biogas is huge and livestock areas and by you products manufacturing has begun to develop industrial hub is and the potential to utilize biomass exists from coast to coast and other corners of the country will benefit because the programs allow them to exploit their individual in her and natural resource stations. the committee recently agreed that these investments in these energy title programs are worthwhile by adopting a bipartisan farm bill but maintains mandatory funding for the programs and several of these programs lee energy coalition supports this outcome and peaveys it should include these investments. america has been at the epicenter of the nation's renewable energy by yo product industry. farmers, ranchers and businesses in the economies of already begun to realize the benefits. american agriculture and the
rural community that supports demonstrates that it has the vision, the entrepreneurialism, the optimism and the tenacity to continue to develop these industries that it provided with the tools to do so. a continuing commitment to the farmville energy title programs will permit the expansion of american energy jobs, dr. innovation come foster the cutting edge technology we can export to the rest of the world materially benefit in the environment and the national security and to ensure that we continue to lead the world in the development of the new industries. for these reasons we urge the committee and the congress to reauthorize these vital energy programs and provide them with a robust mandatory funding that would enable them to continue to do their good work throughout the next farm bill. thank you. look forward to your questions. >> thank you. mr. reinford, please, go ahead with your testimony. >> thank you to michaelene thompson and members of the committee. i wasn't aware of it until i got
your invitation that you are one of my neighbors, so it was a joy to be here. this is my first time ever doing something like this, and i feel privileged and honored to be here. i'm not quite sure how little turnabout but i had like eight days of preparation time but i want to take the time to thank you for allowing me to share my experience and it's now been for eight years to share my experience on the renewable energy and thanks so much to the incentives i got. we put a new system and the forms to so i'm going to share a little bit of that story and one of the main reasons i did it was because of the reduction in pennsylvania i did have a gentle man moved into my area, a police officer and his complaint was i
want to work and we put together this system, and i guess a lot of people looking what i am doing and that is one of the reasons i am here to share and promote this technology to move forward in the next years ahead. additional income i've received the first couple of years. the last in come state we got on the net profit as low as $300,000 on the dairy farm and that's pretty good when you start making as much money it's really kind of an appealing thing to us here, so that is drawing attention and it's environmentally friendly. the community likes me. i haven't add a complete. right now while i sit here writing this 24 active digests and we are shooting probably 28
to 29 by the end of this year, so we are kind of a front runner - ink for the digesters and i am proud of that along with other states here. my experience started when i sent my son to college. you never know what you're going to come back with. he got me started in this whole technology of energy and i right now i guess and one of the front runners in pennsylvania so i'm here to tell my story. i'm sure to help promote this technology to move forward on the economic and practical things. one of the things i want to familiarize with in the next statement, it's kind of a different thing unique energy and can supply energy to your neighbors and everybody seems to like that, so that technology i
can't explain it but it does work. this amazing technology and it's come alive and i noticed of pennsylvania hasn't been in the states. i talked to an older gentleman and he's the guy that got me started on this. i did a lot of research and work before i got started here eight years ago and made something turnaround a pretty good profit. one of the things i want to say besides the digest for 1,000 cows close to the future expansion on how big we were going to get in pennsylvania, 500 cows. i got a phone call from a partner with wal-mart and grocery stores with some other investing so i start putting and we doubled production.
they have more energy so i'm hoping somehow on the road we can partner with food waste industries and be a big part of that especially in the very end of the hog industry and put it into something we can actually make. it is a win-win for everybody in the community. we power right now about 800 -- 80 to 100 houses. it's kind of an amazing technology. it used to be a waste product people would turn that into a commodity. another basic technology. the heat from the generator is where we make a lot of our money in the house and everything in the bar and you can read the power and i just bought my wife asia the vault parting the
transportation a lot of attention in that. came down to washington with our chevy but ran out of energy coming up the river waiting to plug that in and there's plenty of outlets now to plug in. the deciding factor for me for putting the system and play was because of the grants i got from the local bank so i'm a big supporter of this whole technology and i want to say a big thank you to my family. you got the paper and sent them here. i want to say thank you to my son publicly and also it helps the next generation, so i'm passionate. i'm not used to running on a time clock. i'm passionate about this
technology and unwilling to stick out my neck to promote this for future generations of the agriculture. it's an amazing technology so think you mr. chairman. >> thank you. we will make sure the folks in washington that can't find a place so that there is a form where they can get that done. if mr. taylor, we recognize you for five minutes. >> bring the memory and members of the subcommittee thing to for the invitation to testify today on the energy bill entitlement programs in particular the glioma system to imprisonment and ceo of a farmer owned energy cooperative in missouri with 40,000 members we supply the tools of lubricants and propane to customers in the states. we have a long history --
conversely if profitable production is 20 kurt van a viable consumer base must exist to purchase the product. in our experience this couldn't be truer. it is a difficult process to educate farmers on a strange plant. just two years ago it was a crop that was too expensive and planted by hand. the usda approval in 2011 to fund the project. combined project scale up to
50,000 acres to drive down the cost of the best perennial crops and increase the efficiency of which they are planted. no other federal program has this broad attack on america's biomass renewable energy industry. it is a game changer would only if it is administered properly and funded consistently. while the u.s. stay committed resources to fund the first year of a seven year model, we had a the model and the pace of implementation deutsch of the drastic funding cuts of 2012. despite our significant success in the absence of a clear direction federal policy is forcing us to scale back in each of our product areas. we are in a situation where it's impossible to plan six months out let alone three to five years necessary to run a
business. consistent funding is the story. expanding the renewable energy industry cannot be done in a laboratory or in fury. farming is advanced by doing. you cannot sort out all the complexities of such a unique crop and independently skillet to 200,000 acres in the project areas after only one year of funding. the program that is funded one day and discarded another will ultimately do more harm than good. it will support to the cassette the industry back years and farmers will lose faith in the industry. i strongly support reducing our nation's deficit and tackling the rising debt. in fact, u.s. farmers have led the way establishing a fiscal record that is unique among federal policies. i understand tight budget constraints will be a major issue in the 2012 farm bill and encourage careful review of all the programs. in doing so i vv if you will find that is worthy of
continuing and should any funding be available for the energy title i strongly encourage you to direct it to the game changing program. the authorization has the potential for finding my written testimony offers suggestions related to the programs functions. most importantly, usda needs to have the flexibility to see existing projects through to maturity. in closing, they've found it america's pioneer spirit to advance opportunities for our members, and we are overcoming the chicken and the egg problem unsuccessfully leveraging the cap the way it was intended. >> thank you mr. taylor. now we recognize you for five minutes testimony, please. >> thank you, chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee and the full committee, on behalf of the life
of eisel board and grateful for the opportunity to testify regarding the farmville energy title. i'm vice president of sales and marketing for the renewable energy group a leading u.s. by a diesel producer headquartered. our company has by a diesel production facilities in minnesota, texas, iowa, illinois, and we are working to reopen the facilities in louisiana, mexico and kansas. our focus is on converting the national fact, oil and grease into advanced biofuels. currently i have the privilege of serving as the chairman of the national wiota eisel board and the trade association i will refer to as nbb deride by moody's and lizilo carvin diesel replacement fuel. it's used in trucks, trains, agricultural equipment generators and heating oil.
by you diesel was used in existing insurance without modification and has made some broad diversity including recycled a cooking oil, agricultural oil. there are approximately 200 by you diesel production facilities and last year those plants produce a record 1.1 billion gallons of advanced biofuel breaking the billion gallen mark for the first time in our industries short history. by comparison, the u.s. uses approximately 55 billion gallons of petroleum diesel fuel each year. our trade association, the nbb, works number of diversity organizations including the national vendor association, the american savings association, the kashmoula association and the national restaurant association. our industry has production facilities and all but a few
states across this land. in fact, 13 of the distinguished members on the subcommittee have least one plant in your district including representatives lucas, peterson, thompson, gibbs, dole's camp, mcintyre, walls, owens,. the other nine members of the committee have but you diesel production facilities located in your states and nbb estimates others like them across the country supported more than 30,000 jobs in all sectors of the u.s. economy in 2011. the household income of more than $2.1 billion created more than $3.8 billion of gdp. many of the hour protection facilities are located in rural america where in many cases they are in the primary economic engine for the community.
in addition to creating manufacturing jobs are diversified stocks and products represent expanding markets for u.s. farmers, livestock producers, renters and restaurant owners. given this overview you can understand why programs are a critical piece of the next farm bill. particular, we have a strong interest in the existing farm bill energy titled programs, the value diesel fuel education program section 9006 and the value energy program for advanced biofuel, section 9005. first, the education program plays a vital role helping expand marketplace acceptance and the use of coyotes oil and we help to urge modest funding for the program. with the help of the bayou diesel education program the industry has conducted market outreach, industry coordination, fleet and truck outreach, petroleum supply chain education
, wide wiota eisel research and we've worked copper roughly with the petroleum marketers association of america, the international liquid terminal association, the ilth and societies independent gasoline marketers on the key infrastructure education. we also garner significant support from the manufacturers currently 34 u.s. automakers and into a manufacturer's warranty their intentions to accept the use of by a diesel blends of 25% or 20%. many manufacturers are actively promoting the capacity and capability and forcible, ford has recently began featuring the emblem prominently on the side of every new super duty truck. finally because the agricultural committee we should talk about tractors blends are covered for use in john deer, new holland and international equipment as well as the lawn equipment such as fairness and toro.
in fact many new tractors are warranted up to the b100. in addition to the education program it is urging the committee to reauthorize the energy program for advanced by aerofuel to read the program has left the industry maintain a stable and expanding manufacturing base as we work to establish ourselves in a competitive marketplace with the petroleum diesel industry. by ehud eisel is a part of in all of the above energy strategy and the recent price spikes should remind us why this is important with domestically produced alternatives to oil, we can reduce the influence of global forces such as opec over our economy, a concept that is well understood by consumers to purchase gasoline and diesel fuel. a recent gallup polls found roughly two-thirds of americans and putting majority from both political parties support continued incentives for developing american made alternative fuel and the industry is proud to produce the
only domestic commercial scale advanced fuel that is readily available and accepted across the country. we have both the capacity and feedstock to increase production and further expand markets for agricultural feed stock and the farmville programs we've discussed will help our small but growing industry gandy sustainable place to read again i appreciate the opportunity to to beat his defeat could testify on behalf of the industry. we look forward to working with you on the development and continuation of the programs the support the growing u.s. by a diesel industry. thank you. >> thank you. we've -- there were votes on the house floor called a minute or so ago. my intention is we will get throughout ten minutes of questioning and then we will have to recess until after this vote series is out on the floor
so we will reconvene ten minutes from the start of the last vote on the house floor to give everybody a benchmark and i appreciate everybody's patience on that. the chair would like to remind members they will be recognized for questioning and the order of seniority for this to start during and after that members will be recognized in order for libel and i appreciate the understanding and recognize myself for five minutes. you mentioned by leo gas can be utilized in the existing infrastructure. can you elaborate or talk more about this and what kind of future applications and opportunities might there be for this energy given your on the field on the ground experience on the farm that you've seen? >> i have access right now so we
are looking at compressing it and using it in pickup trucks and dump trucks so utilizing that technology is a farm in indiana they are hauling milk with a compressor so that's the kind of thing we are looking. we're actually making too much so there's other opportunities. we are largely self-sufficient. the only thing we can bring something else is we can be fossil fuel free and if i can get something like for the other technology that is what we are looking at right now. stomachs and you are looking with your trucks, tractors, that kind of thing? have you looked at the numbers come is that something that works for you in terms of making that conversion and you obviously have the fuel available for the methane. >> the numbers are about $0.60, a dollar 70. for the larger it would be the
numbers coming out so right now that technology needs to be approved and they are still working to make it more affordable for the reforms so the technology is there. >> you suggest energy programs such as the bible base market programs are fostering innovation and the refinery in with cnn. can you give any examples of the programs help drive innovation especially of new technologies. >> thank you for the question. the newest part of this is the ability to convert cellulose into sugar that can pay in ethanol and we've known how to take the starch part of the plant and convert into sugar, but the cellulosic part of the plant, the stems, they've evolved over millions of years to the structural and hard to
breakdowns of the challenge was how can we use biotechnology to develop and signs and bacteria that can break down that material and that is what our companies have succeeded in doing and we are moving towards the commercialization. the ability to then use to take the crops when they take their corn kernels and so them the way the ordinarily do but to be able to use the corn stalks to be able to use blood products from the industry and switchgrass, all of that on land might not be that usable. this is the biofuel the nation is ultimately if we succeed going to depend upon and will give us all of the benefits for mothers of energy independence
and a more environmentally sustainable way of producing energy. >> what kind what you said just to help the dollars are being spent where they were intended. >> i think as we all know it got off to redstart with matching payments with the difficulty of solving this problem but the one recommendation that we would make would be the project there is a tendency in the rule to spread the money as much as possible. my suggestion would be to allow usda to see projects through to maturity would be the number one recommendation.
>> i would now recognize for five minutes of questions. >> to set the record straight besides you and mr. thompson we are pennsylvanians as well and we know the home county is not pronounced juanita as a senator did that didn't work out well. those of us on the committee that were here in o2 and in 08 are proud of the work we did on the energy titles but we are in el jam. the super committee had no mandatory funding, the united states senate committee has $800 million. we want to fund as much as possible but we are in difficult water. if we could only find three programs, what three would you recommend, and where would you suggest we take the money from to fund them? >> he used to be my neighbor
>> that's a fair question and difficult question. the budget situation here is a very austere and you have to make tough decisions. i don't know that i can name three. i did name for in my testimony that we are very supportive of as members of the coalition. we think that these programs, the energy programs demonstrate the value and there is a national interest here in finding the resources to keep the funding going and we are appreciative of the work the senate was able to do to find $800 million. it's less than the 08 bill but it's a significant investment. we think there are environmental national security and economic benefits to doing this and so we encourage the committee to doing that. i don't know if i have a silver bullet answer for you as to how to find the money but we are there to make the case that these are vital programs and we will work with you to try to find that funding.
spec our priorities would be to find a program come on the cap and the bio based markets program and certainly as one that served with you for 12 years, and i understand the streets the nation is in and facing in terms of our spending problems and our budget. this farm bill as a whole is a subsidy bill and it's a question of establishing priorities, and my message to you folks on this committee is to be very visionary in terms of where is the future for our children, and i would argue that the future is going to depend upon our ability to make fuel in ways we have not been able to before. the science has brought us to this point and shortly the commercial of the market will take us the rest of the way. what we need from the committee is a bridge, the bridge to enable the entrepreneur is to
demonstrate the commercial ability of the technologies and we are quite confident that once they do with these guarantees the commercial bankers will move in and be on a grand adventure. >> anyone else care to comment? >> thank you. islamic they are not just among the decisions in the subcommittee programs but as well as national priorities. most analysts would predict what we would see in the energy costs for the next decade are going to be substantially higher on an average level than we saw the last decade so a lot of the programs, which was a difficult chicken and egg problem to solve, this has made i think the possibility a very successful results are possible because the
bar is in essence no word because the price of energy being significantly higher. that's one reason and the reason we try to set priorities is that 75% of the oil in the country is transportation fuel, and cellulosic fuel on the renewable fuel standard, too to be 36 billion gallons by 2022 is a very important goal. if that is to be achieved we are now just on the cusp of making the breakthroughs we need to make because higher prices in the markets there is a great deal of activity of entrepreneurial activity to solve its problems and cut the legs out from under the programs at this time and of least in my opinion would be bad time because it's all starting to
work at this point. >> time is expired and for the vote as well. >> i would ask for your patience. we will recess and reconvene for further questions. ten minutes following the start of the final vote. thank you. >> [inaudible conversations] >> the subcommittee of the agriculture [inaudible] will reconvene.
i apologize for the recess we had to take. the only good news i can share is the votes are done for the day said no more votes on the floor. at this time i placed to recognize the gentleman from ohio for five of its. >> thank you for holding the hearing. i've always been excited about the agriculture of major solutions. mr. reinford come on your digester what is after? what's left? what is the byproduct or what is the material that's left? >> we brought it through and as you see and hear we use that as
one of the biggest in comes for technology that's been a good response in the cell counts we are running around 120, 120 mark and that is a big plus for the industry the last years we began the bonus because the good quality so that's a big area. the nutrients it doesn't change or take the nutrients out but it does change the former nutrients it's more available in the first year of planning so that is a big plus for our farmers. we doubled the crop a lot and we actually by no commercial fertilizer except the nitrogen so it is a big plus all around for us. >> i couldn't quite hear you. for the first year it's more available? >> that's right if changes nitrogen to a soul for so it's more available to the crops.
it takes up to three years and that is a big plus for the digesters in the whole way of the watersheds. we do all so it is a win-win for pennsylvania. >> that's one reason i was so excited about the digesting this because it is a great energy source and it's also the environment, and you just said that because unless you use phosphorus you are using it the first year so it's not sitting there in the bank of the soil and you see erosion or wash off or become soluble, so. the second question, i know there is digesters in europe and germany.
but there's still only about 200 in the country. for the livestock operations to put in the digesters? >> that's a good question, too. the number one thing for the farmers educating i'm not doing the pioneer work dimond in different places educating farmers to rid germany like 1600's digesters they got it over there and have the count to be very profitable with smart digesters. >> would you think the ballpark would be on the capitol investment for a small digester let's return to the real prevention.
how many would you have to have? >> if you allow us to put fuel in there we could go down as 200 of 300. we have other food stocks like from wal-mart and the other chains coming that they want me to come on board with but i need more digest so we could go down as low as 300. my digester cost me 1.1 million. that's topnotch so with some of the regulations right now and even going in half, something like it can sustain itself but we need more support to keep the farmers encouraged and there's money available to keep it going but it's good stuff. >> what can we do to make it better?
ha >> i think the one issue is a strong tendency to try to diversify and take as many projects into play as possible, and i can't people enough for having the complexity of these programs because they're very complex, and i used to emphasize them. but the emphasis needs to be not just shot gunning. eg need more emphasis on the whole process. so the money doesn't. >> thank the gentleman. i have a question i wanted to ask, and extend. of the energy title in the 2008 bill was to spur the development
of the cellulosic ethanol and advanced. it has been blended into the fuel supply so it's a two-part question for the panel, anyone on the panel there would like to respond. what challenges need to be addressed in order to address that issue? does the current energy title provided the tools to move towards the advancement of the commercially viable cellulosic at tunnell. as i mentioned first let me say i understand the impatience. we've been in patient as all the science is progressing. of one of the things most recent recession. as i mentioned in my hour original is completed, the
structure is complete and they are going to produce cellulosic ethanol literally within the next couple of weeks, so we've demonstrated down to the sciences there and we've demonstrated the construction of the plant you can build the facility and now. this is the final step to prove the whole concept. spec congress ran. we are amassing a significant amount. it takes 1,000 acres even a million gallons of cellular like ethanol. in missouri we have had a companies as far as japan come
to missouri because of the awareness of cellulosic ethanol owners of the price of oil is hires a they are more competitive. number two, they are finally figuring out the chicken and the egg problem which is you can develop of the technologies and if you don't have the biomass, you have a mismatch and it does take a significant amount and because of the cap and boots had been the number number ohio congressman in eastern arkansas and the two in missouri we've had numerous global players to investigate. >> you asked about evidence to biofuel and while i can't speak about cellulosic there's one
that is commercially available and from our standpoint the education program that has a modest amount of funding we ask that that continue her because it does of its vital to having marketplace. it is here and available and being accepted we just need to continue that effort. i recognize the gentleman from current over five minutes. specs before mr. tryon and for being here. this first kind of. if you need more supply we have resources and a. mr. taylor i would like to ask you a question. in the small business that i chair talking about a the.
>> the water tower once this published it does better but it can survive on less water. a factor of 300-acre propagation field which is northwest. it does survive and prospers in. >> you commented in your testimony that we need to be able to see the existing projects through to maturity. can define. because part of our job
obviously here as well as to be good stewards of tax payer dollars it needs to be all of the above. can you speak to that a role for me, please? since. i've had almost no conversations about texas strategies. they don't have an emphasis on if we get started what is your strategy to get off the public trough? when do we start to see a return on this investment?
we are trying to break the chicken and egg cycle and get enough in place to encourage this technologies and to bring them. >> to effectively see a three-year window and there will be sustainable and be able to build those reserves and its current be the next panel, mr. chairman. we have a lot in reserves in my area on public land standing timber. >> there are all over central program the crop set aside program which pays farmers not to plants. a lot of that.
even though you have one year of exposure, it's in place. it works very nicely. those types of pieces need to be put in place. >> one thing i think many of us have a problem with is the continual overreach when it comes to the regulatory process. the current regulations dictate the a loveless effect can you tell us how some of the regulations are in having your ability to make a cash forum productive project? >> the whole particularly a crop that is never been planted. but the regulations i'm not sure in that statement if i
understand it right where they are looking at regulations as it pertains just to this crop. on a contempt during how the regulation as written. the fsa we had one year of funding and had an application this year and may not receive anything which seems preposterous when we are actually a successful and proven direction making the progress because the emphasis is on starting new projects to get going better than seeing through to fruition a project that's already going in biomass because it's not a one year event. it takes a long time to read you
have to do it to get it done. >> thank you to read on your back. >> i recognize the gentleman from wisconsin. >> thank you mr. chairman and the panel for coming. i will start right away with mr. reinford cycle when did i pronounce it correctly? i come from part of wisconsin as the second-largest dairy producer and the united states and digester is becoming more popular by the day. would you mind sharing with the panel what type of capital expense you are going to put in the digester technology in your form? >> there we go. back in a 08, there was the guy just called me -- cost me 1.1 million. >> how much of that was subsidized through a hypothetical perham? a pure subsidy grants or -- >> we had grant money through
penn and harvest. >> 50%? >> 50% and i should say right now low-interest money. >> sort of about 550,000? >> that's correct. estimate how long will it take to pay back? two years, three years. >> and myself to say that without the subsidy it would have taken four years? >> past year we had a good year simply because we are bringing least in from other sources and that is a tipping fee so that gives about one-third of a percent for income coming from tipping fees so for the farmers that don't have access you're going to be looking down the road five, six, seven years. i will say this my science's way through the process right now he has a form down the road on replacement animals he's putting eight digester in the new regulations he 7 million planned
67 regulations are changing and the cost is going to be higher but we are finding ways we can make it profitable. more profitable let's put it that way. estimates are there other forms as effective? >> horstman dvorkin note. we keep that in colorado. pig manure is good. we have an essential operation going well. chicken manure -- >> i was at a conference in wisconsin, and about wisconsin digesters. good place. >> appreciate your comments on the strategy. comments are none of this bill are the closest thing to eternal life as a government program and one of my concerns with all the programs and to relieve you could respond in the timeframe we have here it seems to me and
i may former business owner it seems business owners have a tendency to build pricing based on whatever the subsidy is and then without an exit strategy they are always back here wanting the program to establish an marketplace based on a false market premise below the price product how do we know we are not falling in the same trap with you all? >> i can only speak to the biomass portion of that but i think that the rule as was written was absolutely the thinking was so dead on. the payments that we received didn't go to mfa. they went to the farmers to commit into the program and with that, knowing that they're in the program we invested the money in the environmental assessments which are hundreds
of gazans of dollars in designing a plant with an english company that we are now producing in the center of kansas to plant this by hand two years ago. the bye umass is making all of those investments, and what is happening in the rules they play is the vertical integrators biomass is a complex problem to solve because nobody knew where to start. it's not only a nonexistent crop for the most part in the country, it is a non-existing industry so where to start was a huge problem hence the fits and starts with the industry. it's not what it was intended to do. it was intended to break the problem. the crop is being planted by you need to plant enough so you have a critical mass to support the
processing facilities to attract a 25 for 50 million cellulosic ethanol plant which we know the technology is advancing takes 25 to 50,000 the one project in central missouri we had to demonstrate that there was three times that amount of available -- this doesn't compete in the food versus fuel debate this is for the most part nonproductive and so in our particular case i think was very effective and it did exactly what it was supposed to do but it takes one, too, for three years because we didn't have a planter when we started with planting 5410 acres a day. >> is it possible we will be here five years from now and still another three years? >> in the technologies i couldn't answer that.
>> yearend out change in this will complexion now signing contracts of the first four installments turning suhler into waste-water. we are planting this two-stage the soil complexion below ground irrigation and contracting with those offshoots if not for the program that starts and stops this crop to get off the public trough. >> you have a unique perspective.
>> you are wise to express that concern. sources of energy whether nuclear power were zero real and gas subsidized for a very long time. if the price builds in the subsidy you cannot have it. in a relatively short period of time will guarantees have provided the private-sector some confidence to invest $130 million of private dollars. but our scientists believe this product once we could through the scale of full-scale commercialization can compete head-to-head gasol reem with the price of
oil we will be competitive and will not have to come back year after year to be replaced by others with the same story has the story to tell. >> thank you for being here. i yield back. >> thank you for your experience a and testimony. and penny members have further questions irresponsive be greatly appreciated. now to call for word witnesses we have a virginia ed tree farmer from one
heard virginia. and president of national association of state foresters. and from the national of assn of forest from alabama up. and rehab the procurement manager with the southeast would producers' association and the executive vice president and ceo of american foresters from bethesda maryland. i now recognize mr. berg if you would begin with your testimony.
>> thank you for allowing me to appear rude for you this afternoon to the chairman and ranking member and others of the sub committee. of bit of an introduction remanded just family forest in central virginia parker have the pleasure of working with the american forest foundation a nonprofit mission to promote healthy forest. we speak for 10 million landowners. allow me to set the stage for my testimony. the property and manage has been in our family six generations. we've produce paper products , pallets, hardwood lumber, cabinets, flooring
lumber, cabinets, flooring, and other uses. in addition to these to the economy of our state we pride ourselves on the water quality because the forest is the watershed for our water. we also brighter selves on the wildlife and a forest is no more than a habitat. i will try to move truncate to ensure we and on time but focus my comments on two particular areas. first, to encourage this committee to recognize the farm bill a add the secondary as testimony is to speak zero refocus the
market's program to better recognize certain products that are not now. there are a number of stories about land owners who work hard for their property and benefit from the forest conservation programs. some things we have done such as the clip we can do things that in and of itself would not the lourdes day chile viable we improve wildlife habitat, water quality and reduce the risk of fire through certain technique. so -- and improve the forest. we realize we face a significant budget issue.
my request if cutting has to cure is that forestry this not be cut disproportionately. second, i refer you to the written testimony for additional details. the usda program does not fully support products that come from our farm with respect to labeling and federal purchasing despite the fact legislation refers to forestry materials. year please chairman thompson is considering the inequity to consider a bill that would be entitled the
fair day's the forest berry this act to square with what should be billing on a dead in particular a program that could be changed without incurring any additional costs but open-market for the bio based product and it could be done with little or no cost. in conclusion we appreciate the work of the committee and hope you continue these programs to enable landowners to continue to be good stewards of our land. i look forward to your questions. >> mr. dye please proceed when ready. >> chairman thompson, the members of the subcommittee they q for worthy opportunity to appear as the
word of two-thirds of state forest they deliver technical of reach the assistance with wildfire protection in partnership with u.s. forest service's. my comments and recommendations for the 2012 farm bill endorsed to support the nation's forest. where reinstatement precludes priority recommendations. the development of statewide forest resources and strategies was the important outcome of the farm bill. these action plans will delineate of the landscape
issues. , and among the threats invasive species, wildfire species, wildfire, threats to urban and kennedy force force, and also provide long-term strategies to apply state and federal resources to where they will most effective the stimulate the desired action with multiple partners. they recommend the 2012 farm bill provide the necessary support to implement the forest action plan. joining in the form bill coalition to support the recommendations to help implement the forest action plan. the coalition recommends
including strong provisions for four stand conservation programs, without reach, and inventory programs and combating invasive species do improve the forest market our -- opportunities. included in the strong provisions, with consolidation of conservation titled programs providing a forest landowners is maintained in the streamlined program. we recommend the 10% cap and this esp be removed for those that is a enjoyed by farmers and ranchers. inventory programs managed
by the usda forest service is the only comprehensive a good tory system to access the hof and fed to be related to forest species composition of and health data to give base line inventory estimates used it action plans. but to give strategic implementation in the programs including transition to a fully implementing program to engage state foresters of fia data to reevaluate and foster greater cooperation between state foresters and the station meters.
-- beaters. combating force -- poor's related invasive species. the only pest detection program the usda health inspection service is vital to rapid response to invasive species. with continued authorization and defending. with the reauthorization the stewardship contract the authorities is essential to help the forest service to provide sustainability and employment opportunities in rule communities. we support the reauthorization of the contracting authorities that are currently set to expire. these represent conclusions
driven by forest action plans driven in part from the last farm bill. i stand ready to answer any questions you may have. >> mr. holmes you are recognized. >> thank you chairman and members of the subcommittee. from the conservation districts 3,000 member districts and the supervisors across the country, i thank you for this opportunity to be here today. reserve does the board member and chairman of the forest resources policy. we have a homestead company in alabama where we have a tree farm operation using a variety of conservation practices over 200 years
including rotation preissing and burning. we received our first farm plan 1939 and have been certified tree farms since 1941. we currently have a registered forester to assist us with our management. the importance of conservation cannot be stated the deaf. that is why the passage of the 2012 farm bill. districts throughout the country are supporters of the programs that provide it has produced over 270,000
resources and 301 million acres of private land developing a sound reserves but to nacd is one of the four partners of the forestry team with the forest service and also with the national association of state foresters. the management plan template serves us up are married guidance. >> i was chairman and saw first the and in 2010 to not just the stewardship program but as a whole. i have seen in the direct benefit of the program.
restoration was the product of it. today i have restored more than 700 acres in an effort to restore native tree to or forest park and forest make the program allows landowners to protect her are meant to leave for four important areas from expansion to invade the process to develop the conservation plan. in the 2012 farm bill framework kravis $200 million annually and a do not believe it is a negative impact to successfully carry out responsible conservation per barrel in sex continue to have a direct havoc by
infestation and disease have been direct impact and put their lives in danger due to the laws of timber and increase the risk of wildfire. we feel more needs to be done. the steps we're going in the wrong direction. they show a track record of success in their dollars spent is saved in return. but to we want to insure the stability of our forest burper i am harper. >> thank you.
>> thank you mr. chairman. thank you for the opportunity to hear the at -- told the hearing and look of the programs of the 2012 farm bill. florida's highest by you'd agricultural product is trees. 16 billion isn't used in to the florida economy each year. forestry contributes and supports many communities including 133,000 employees and provides a nervous bedrock to the community. and it resides in my congressional district i am proud to welcome the witness from our district
district, mr. richard schwab with over 22 years of experience and representing southeastern would producers' association. as well as the american and loggers council. rethink him for his commitment to strengthen the future of forestry and for our community. i yield back. >> they give for your introduction congressmen. >> i apologize. i want to do housekeeping this is for the purpose of unanimous house consent the. >> i think you for you to deal with but unfortunately i have to go public by have unanimous consent to submit
from the i a was natural heritage foundation the floor in energy and conservation to you give them more options to implement the forest legacy program and i have questions to insert and i think my colleagues for the courtesy and would like to submit that for the record. >> without objection. >> we need to work together. >> i apologize mr. schwab. start over with your five minutes of testimony. >> i am a third generation of log per two has been educated and july -- trained
in a master logger. representing my head companies we are harvesting company in florida and we practice sustainable farming over 22 years. but being a part of the national bloggers council at. >> the first concern is toward the analysis program. is the best resource we have to measure outcomes. the date is used to create jobs. i have worked with other companies to help develop regions in their country. the bush ask you to reaffirm the analysis program to mahan's feet it means there
is no federal forstmann to prepare contracts used for healthy forest and increase projections. we have $0.4 a was first we of rise congress to reauthorize the 2012 farm bill. we ask you to reauthorize national institution is food act to maintain their current funding level. like company has worked with the extension to harvest biomass on a project and i personally have seen the
crops and then excited about the future growth i am not sure this would happen today. before militates 84 o one provision for qualifying contracts. of the 2008 farm bill it is safe to say receptor is in economic depression. federal timber sales holding contracts are now are priced to hide and cannot harvest without sustaining losses brian know that the small businesses contribute greatly where the unemployment rates to hover between 15 and 20%. these businesses need additional time as we continue to wait four or markets to recover. please extend 84 o one for those of ford did jittery
first 2,008 and and dain 2010. there are some but there renewable biomass found we need their current definition as maintained and as broad a base but that to interfere with the existing markets. the assistance program is a prime example of a program gone wrong. we took part of the program but had methane but extra paperwork but although those
operating cost never know markets established as a direct result. the program may have worked well for the agriculture sector but it was a disaster for other businesses in the harvesting community. alas programmer like to address and to the current law we like to see the language of the 2012 farm bill to create parity between other bio based broker at -- products that apply the innovative approach with cardis of the date of entry into the marketplace. i am working with american progress is completing construction on the ethanol plant to take waste-water from a plant and use that to put would ethanol.
the company sought in media saw when needed and made the investment. thank you for allowing me to provide comments on the farm bill i will be happy to answer any questions you may have. >> buydown recognize mr. goergen. >> members of the committee i am the chief executive officer and i appreciate being here today to talk about programs that have the american economic picture prefer i am pleased with the panel much of what our like to tell you has been said today which is outstanding. i will try to save time but i want to point* out represent more than 12,000
people across the country who dedicate their lives to the professional management and those who have committed themselves to ensure they are taking care of and managed that some programs contained are important for the ability for them to do their jobs. also other items contracting authority and also the issue we have been in the western part of the united states. talking about contacting i want to talk about the success of a program starting off as a us pilot project and to make sure that the tool can be used on the ground and the blm can benefit to the taxpayer as well.