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tv   Tonight From Washington  CSPAN  August 24, 2012 8:00pm-11:00pm EDT

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.. >> they thought the president was not going to be a strong defender of american values and american principles, free-trade, enterprise, those words of apology and the statements i think have emboldened those who find us as the weakened enemy.
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>> coming up next to u.s. and canadian ambassadors and officials talk about u.s.-canada security and cooperation. they discussed order relations, energy policy and environmental issues. hosted by the canadian consulate and national security form, this is an hour and 15 minutes. [applause] >> welcome. this will be a fascinating hour, and there are a couple of reasons that we are here. the first of which is its u.s. navy week in chicago and we are commemorating the war of 1812.
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another reason is that we are here because of a splendid collaboration between canada and the united states. many thanks to the canadian consulate general's office in chicago for thinking about this program and sponsoring it. also, many thanks to the pritzker military library which as some of you know or many of you know in chicago is a marvelous institution for our cultural heritage. come visit the pritzker let terry library. my affiliation is with the national strategy forum in chicago. we take a look at national security issues over a long-range horizon. so we are going to talk about not only the war of 1812 but the common theme that we are going to be discussing that demonstrate the very close
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relationship between our two countries. we have been friends for a long time although we got off to a shaky start 200 years ago with the war of 1812 that we have done a whole lot better. we are friends, but the more one gets to know about canada and the strong relationship with the u.s., it's more than friendship, and i will say it's a section. the purpose of this hour or so that we are going to be discussing a number of themes is to demonstrate that there is a need for us to understand both sides of the border. our resources and how we strengthen each other. so with that, let you give you a little notion of what is to come. we are going to be talking about a number of things. for example the piece for
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border, some 2550 miles more or less, a very peaceful border, one of the unique traits of our two countries. no other country in joys that kind of border relationship. another is that we are partners in the great lakes. the five great lakes, the st. lawrence seaway and more of that with admiral parks of the u.s. coast guard. energy and water resources are terribly important to both countries, and national security is another issue that we are going to be discussing, and the one fact that i think that we must really realize in the united states is economic prosperity and the u.s. and canada have a marvelous economic relationship.
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canada is the u.s.'s largest trading partner. so an overly long introduction. let's get started and it's my great pleasure to introduce our panelists. ambassador gary doer is the canadian ambassador to the united states. jim jacobson the u.s. ambassador to canada, and our new pals, two admirals and the commodore, admiral -- and help me with the title. the commander of carrier strike two. admiral michael parks, u.s. coast guard and a word about the coast guard. the five great lakes and the st. louis the way. another new pal, commodore hathorne the commander of the canadian navy atlantic fleet. ak, so with those details out of the way, let's get down to the
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substance and let me start with you ambassador to her. >> thank you very much. veterans and members of the military, admirals, commodore, my good friend ambassador jacobson chairs for the cubs, cheers for the bears and chairs for the blackhawks, and other another great job representing the navy and canada. we try our best to put it together. [laughter] it's great to be here in chicago. just a couple of months ago we were here hosted by mayor emanuel with the nato summit as many in his people participated in. where we going to go in the world with nato? what are the lessons to be learned from what just happened in libya, what are we going to do about syria, what is the nuclear capacity build up and i ran for world security and how
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are we going to operate together and afghanistan post-2014? so it was a very successful meeting and it underlines again the great cooperation between canada and the united states. in terms of the war of 1812, we both brag that we won that war and the debate after that led to that -- so that really does speak to the friendship we have. i certainly have read a number of books about the war of 1812, and i think it's a couple of lessons from that from my perspective at least is the great appreciation of the military and security role of our navy working together in this region in north america and around the world. and when you think about it, before the war of the navy's budget had been cut over and over and over again and after the war, the appreciation of the
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naval role was appreciated and enhanced and enhanced again. when you look at it, we patrol three oceans together and even the great lakes represent up to 20% of the freshwater in the world so not only do we have to have security between our countries, but we also have to work together on water quality and that is what we are doing in partnership together. when the prime minister and the president get together, a lot of the media focus in on the bilateral issues of the day, but they are talking about international security issues. they are being motivated to how we can work effectively together. on international issues. i mentioned libya and iran and syria but if you go back over the decades, we worked together in world war i. we work together in world war ii did we work together in korea. we are not together in afghanistan and this really does
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represent our relationship. why is it important to have this partnership notwithstanding the fact that we are neighbors? i think obviously the united states invest more in its military than any other country and in fact invests more probably than all the other countries in the world in terms of the military. what does canada bring to the table? decides being a good friend and reliable ally on international issues, we think from time to time the candidates can bring a unique window on different countries, different information, different intelligence so that we can be informed together about the proper positions for the safety of our own citizens and for the safety of the world. so it's a great relationship after the war of 1812, but it is a very interesting and dynamic relationship and it will continue to be a strong partnership with trade, and
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environment will water quality particularly with the beautiful lakes that we share shared together and the oceans that we steward together and of course on international security where the prime minister and the president work together so thank you very much. see ambassador jacobson. >> it is great to be back in my hometown chicago and maybe i will catch a cubs game while i'm here. it is also great to be here at the pritzker library with my friend ambassador doer and all the distinguished military members. you know we are here to commemorate the war of 1812 and as ambassador doer said the results have been conclusive blood say. [laughter] i am being polite. [laughter] but to me, the war of 1812 was important for a different reason and that is what has come 200
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years afterward. 200 years ago canadians and americans were fighting, were burning each other's capitals and today as you have heard and probably all of you understand, we are absolutely the closest of friends. there are i dare say no at their two countries that are closer than the united states and canada. and to me, that is the lesson of hope for people around the world who don't seem to be able to get along at all with their neighbors. we can make progress and in things can be better and we can be sitting up here with their respective militaries and joking about what happened 200 years ago. in our more recent history, particularly our military and security relationship, has just been extraordinary. i think a key moment -- moment was back in 1940 was something that a lot of people probably don't remember but it's called the --
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declaration and it was an agreement between president roosevelt and prime minister king in canada, and it was to deal with the threat of germany and the potential of germany attacking north america. it still meets regularly. i was at the most recent meeting and we worked together all the time. in the 50s we dealt with a different kind of threat. it was a soviet threat and the cold war. we worked together in nato. we formed norad and a unique military relationship between the united states and canada. it is a joint relationship and a joint command. one of the things that i know people in canada and probably people in the united states are quite proud of is that on september 11, the person who was in command of norad and who was dealing with all of the terrible
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issues that day was a canadian general, and it is an extraordinary relationship. since september 11 we have dealt with a different kind of threat and that is the terrorist threat in north america. prime minister harper i think said it very well when president obama visited ottawa after the election when he said that a threat to the united states is a threat to canada and i think that very much captures the nature of the relationship that we have with one another. we are working to deal with managing the 5500-mile border, the longest border between two countries in the world. one of my predecessors once said that security always trumps trade in a relationship. and i think over the last 10 years we have learned a lot and one of the things we have learned is that the only way we are going to have a secure north
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america is to have a more efficient border, a better use of the resources that we have there. that has been a big part of the border initiative that president obama and prime minister harper have been working on and all the rest of us have been working on to make the border of more efficient and more effective. as ambassador doer said whether it is in libya, syria, iran, the middle east, asia, here in the western hemisphere again there are now two countries that are closer to one another than the united states in canada. there is a survey company every year that does us a survey of favorability ratings by americans of other countries around the world. last year, canada had 96% approval rating by america.
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and canada always comes in first but this was the highest that the country ever had. i don't know where they found the 4%. last year, canadians spend 44 million nights in florida. [laughter] i guess they like a stu. many thanks to the ambassadors for creating the umbrella for what comes next. the next thing we want to shift to is our military component on the stage, and it's important for us to note that our military folks, starting with the -- men all the way up to the top ranks we have assembled here on the stage are more than military people. they also are ambassadors.
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they are people who are very sensitive to the environment. there cultural ambassadors of there are many many attributes that we have and how delighted we are to have three representatives with us. let's start out with you admiral. >> thank you very much. it's truly an honor to be on the panel with these distinguished gentlemen and thank you to the pritzker military library for hosting this. there is a trend this morning based on the two investors comments. i think the debate will be who won the war? [laughter] and when we are done today we should have a vote of the panel members and if we all vote on partisan lines with our coast guard brother we will know who will win. [laughter] it is good to be here and also ambassador, i'm not a diplomat
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but we received such great hosting here in chicago and i want to continue to be treated as well as we have. we need to -- the chicago white sox as well as the chicago bears. [laughter] as was mentioned by the previous speakers one of the reasons the navy is here in chicago is its navy league but also the bicentennial commemoration of the war of 1812. is the commemoration of the war but it's also the celebration of the last 200 years of peace and as was previously mentioned. chicago is one of 15 cities in the united states and other nations in 2012 to commemorate the war. one thing, if you have been to any of them map or if you are going to the future there is one common denominator or in every single city. every place there is a united states navy ship there is also a coast guard ship and a loyal canadian ship. if he went down to the navy pier today you would see the royal
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canadian ship months than in summerside and right next to her is the uss hurricane. which is a good indication of our relationship between our military's. the war of 1812 really was a very influential part in both of our nations history. it is one of those events in our history that really didn't get much attention in our public school system but it really helps to find the united states and define canada as a nation and more importantly defined our united states navy. a lot of the traditions and customs we enjoy here in the 21st century actually originated in the war of 1812. it was the outstanding leadership of many of the officers such as oliver perry and thomas mcdonough who fought here and establish the benchmarks for leadership and innovation that we enjoy in our current officers corps, and a lot of the traits that are navy
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developed in the war of 1812 are just as relevant today. we went toward 200 years ago for sailors writes in free trade and free trade is just as relevant. what happens on the seed matters. at addis to our economy. at matters toward prosperity and it matters to our national defense. as i would like to hear the commodore say as prime minister harper i says canada's -- travels on saltwater with all the trade happening between cities and the great lakes including here in the cities and chicago. our relationship with the canadians and particularly the canadian navy is very strong. we operate together all the time. wewe are operating together here and this commemoration of the war of 1812 through the 15 cities in one of the nice things, not only were they the -- tactically together but
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also relationship and friendships so in case we have to join forces again as we get into world war i, world war ii, korea, kosovo and afghanistan we know how to operate together. we share common values and share common traditions and it's an honor to be here today and i look or to your questions and discussion among the panel members. >> thank you. commodore. >> it is good to be here and having an opportunity to walk around and see the exhibits, the quality and the weight is retreated with us such respect and seldom provide commend anybody who can come to the pritzker library to do that. we like to come in and connect with canadians and connect with americans. understanding the importance of the sea way in the first place which is why we dedicate the effort year-to-year but this year is especially in the context in the war of 1812 in and the commemoration and understanding the value of that 200 years has brought to our two
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countries as brothers. we talk about interoperability for example had to pick up on that theme we have the two militaries at every level from a staff officer. i was on general petraeus the staff and afghanistan in the eyes of. we have that at the exercise level where we work together for example in connecticut. we conducted the exercise where we had all three of our sources conducting a range of maritime security operations together. we conduct exercises such as operation québec that has a large exercise component where the u.s. cutter juniper is coming off the ocean who also does icebreaking, environmental protection and keeping oil from the surface contingency so we are conducting operations together in understanding the environment and working together to make sure both as stewards of the resources as well as making
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sure we understand the environment should we need to operate in the future there together. with those levels of preparation, a huge impact off of hawaii where in excess of 20 countries participate, canada and the united states to the planning. command and control the exercise and run it from me to navy amphibious component to it. these exercises that given these enable us to act whether its act in the arctic, whether that is acting in concert together with the conduct of counternarcotics and illegal immigration and abroad whether to make context of the immediate response after 9/11. we integrated immediately within weeks into the carrier strike group. you can't do that unless you work together every day, every single day and that is what we do. our operations are at that level
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and our intelligence sharing is at that level. the information sharing the domain that is generated by our two services put together, fused with their law-enforcement agencies from the coast guard perspective as well and that is provided as maritime warning information to norah. there is a holistic understanding of the threats to our continent so that we together as we have always done from the agreement moving forward will work together in concert and if that kind of thing when we tie it all together and we understand that the war of 1812 sprung on maritime rights, understanding the importance of that issue today, understanding the prevalence of the maritime domain to move the commodities of the world. our way of life depends on it and our shared national interests. therefore every person in uniform, light blue and white, work together to secure, free
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lawful use of the c. for our two countries. i got to know these two gentlemen and many of kenya and looking forward to moving that forward. >> thank you. i have a question for our two ambassadors. and it's not a personal one. what do you guys do when you get together and what do you talk about? threats, challenges, opportunities? >> i see and we start with opportunities because we are both officers, so we get together with admiral parks at the coast guard. we talk about the opportunities of our great lakes water quality agreement, improving the sustainability of that lake and then we also talk about threats and how we are going to work together on threats to that lake and with the agreement that we just achieved recently between
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our two countries to improve the measurement of accountability, but not have something that would stop all the trade on the great lakes. and then we would point out where whiskey island is located just outside of the shores of cleveland. apparently the breach and thus corporate of effort after the war of 1812 apparently some beverages came down from canada to whiskey island so we talk about that as a historic site but not one that we pay any attention to. [laughter] so we have a to-do list and we basically have items that we go through. some our offense of like the on the border with the prime minister and the president and some are defenses that we try to sell. that is how we spend our time together and we keep it on a pretty professional pragmatic basis. >> i will come back to you in a moment.
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admiral michael parks, u.s. coast guard, we have talked a lot about the -- in our first 10 or 15 minutes on the stage. tell us what you do and what your concerns are? >> thank you. i also want to say how great it is to be with this panel and it is one of the best parts about this as being able to be in the setting and having met all these individuals and even happened broken bread with these individuals before which shows how good the relationship is so it's great to be here and it's a true honor to be at pritzker library. the pritzker military library is home to all of us and it's great to be here. i want to say a special thank you to the canadian consulate for their generosity in helping make this happen. this is really wonderful opportunity. with regard to the coast guard on the great lakes, it's incredible we talk about 20% of the world's freshwater and if
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you look at the great lakes as a body of water from the sea way from messina new the cnet new yk to lake of the woods minnesota where people vacation on holiday and have good fishing, i think that's almost a 1500-mile maritime border for a large extent and the border between san diego and brownsville and that's something that people don't appreciate. that we really have our goal, everything that we do in the coast guard on the great lakes is really watermarked by canada. we really have that type of relationship and i think if i were to tell you the three things that we really want to focus on what comes to the safety and security and stewardship of the great lakes, it really comes down to a shared awareness, synchronize priorities and seamless operations. to just give you an example of each one of those, we just had the groundbreaking of the maritime security operations
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center in niagara which is unlike unlikely to coastal maritime security operations which are run by tsd. this one is run by the royal canadian mounted police. we are full partners and in than in fact we were invited to participate in the groundbreaking of the new building. we have a coast guard down there and we do that kind of work to try to achieve some degree of maritime domain awareness for the great lakes, working as the commodore set with their friends and colleagues and north town norad to try to make sure we understand what they maritime warning is all about. with regard to synchronize parties i think that's a perfect example of how we actually have embraced the beyond the border perimeter security issue with was something that we have up in montréal, the joint initial verification team for we work very closely with transport canada and the canadian coast guard to inspect vessels coming into the great lakes and we are currently under the auspices of
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the on the border trying to find ways to check the actual regulatory schemes of our countries to see how we can synchronize them better so we can make it easier for our commercial entities to be more efficient, but also resources for two countries as well as finding a way to do our job better, to keep the lake safe and secure. finally seamless operations, there is no better example right now that are integrated maritime law enforcement operations known as ship writer which our two governments have approved and we are currently working on the standard operating procedure where the royal canadian mounted police and the united states coast guard is too special authorities for that agreement will be able to work on each other's vessels in the longer will the border be an impediment to our first month efforts of cross-border crime. those are three different examples of how well we work together on the great lakes to help keep them safe and secure.
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>> to add value to one of the things the admiral mentioned, and we will see this now bridging over into military operations and with law enforcement entities where one may operate the canadian navy we have a ship heading down now in the care and be an basis. they probably sent three or four canadian ships each year to participate under centcom within the joint inter-agency task force and they embark law enforcement attachments from the u.s. coast guard. we will provide the vehicle. we will fuse with the united states navy and the u.s. coast guard and with the law enforcement intelligence information there, u.s. law-enforcement will operate from canadian naval vessels and conduct label operations. that is a classic example of the seamless operations which delivers law-enforcement for
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arc -- together. >> admiral jacobsen. >> i was promoted. [laughter] >> a question, couple of questions. one, focus on resources. we are looking to canada as a resource of water, energy. talk about coastal issues. who are we? what kind of people are we? what kind of changes do you see have happened in the past and what is going to happen? >> let's talk about resources. canada is a country that is amazingly rich in natural natural resources, amazingly rich. it's a fast country. it has pretty much every form of natural resources one could want. the natural resource that gets the most attention and one of the ones that is the most plentiful this energy.
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most americans do not realize that canada is by far and away our largest supplier of every form of energy. about 100% of the electricity we import comes from canada. 85% of the natural gas that we import comes from canada and most surprising, 27% of the imported oil that the united states takes and comes from canada. if you ask most americans they would say saudi arabia is our supplier of oil and they are second at 12%. we are very lucky to have canada as a neighbor and to have a safe and secure source of energy supplies. in terms of culture, you know, one of the things that i was told and it is accurate, before i went up to canada when i was
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still in washington and everybody said you know, one mistake you should never make is the mistake that canadians -- americans. is clearly the case that probably there is no country on earth that is more like the united states than canada. we have different historical experiences. while we share many of the same -- we did not share all of them, some good, some not so good. but one of the very important things that ambassador doerr and i do both on a personal level and professionally is to try to explain some of those differences and some of those different values that we have. in my case to the canadian people and in his case to the american people, but while every once in a while priorities
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bridge just a little bit, there are no two countries aligned better. >> lets get a little more deeply into some of the national security issues that are common to both countries, and admiral nosal and i had a conversation yesterday about cybersecurity. please comment on your perspective and the military's perspective and then of course the spillover is their private sector as well. >> a great question and a great topic that always should be addressed in some form or another. we talk about our military capabilities and we talk about kinetic capabilities and security cooperation but it's one of the biggest threats that we are trying to ensure that we have a defense against right now which is cybersecurity. there are other nations in the world that are probably a little bit better than the nations
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represented here on the stage today. and i will tell you there are many efforts being made and many dollars being in fact -- invests in trying to combat the cyber threats both within the military and the civilian sector. it's kind of interesting, i met a professor who had visited china one china one time and he talked to a professor who actually teaches how to hack. the way it works is, a student takes a class and is able to successfully get into a site. if he is able to get into a side, he gets a p and if he is able to get into a.-- he gets a nay. based on criteria you can see where some of the criteria so it is a real concern. we are making great strides to
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ensure that if something happens in the cyberworld and something doesn't happen every single day that we need to be prepared for for and ready to come back, but it is a valid concern. we have combatant commanders and functional commanders and the department of defense and we are in the process of looking and investigating, setting up a cybercombatant command just because of the importance of this issue. >> extremely important. we are working with the u.s. military and homeland security and the white house on cybersecurity and the critical path was dealing with military and critical infrastructure. i think we have got to continue to accelerate our work on critical infrastructure, pipelines, financial transactions. so much of everything we are doing and rely on is tied up in
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potential threats in cybersecurity. i don't want to discourage people from buying anything on the internet that when i ask military people today buy bye-bye anything on the internet? no, no, or at the spec or card because of the thread so i just give you that is consumer advice. it is critically important that we continue to accelerate our efforts in all three of those crucial areas. beyond the border, serious we manage this before gets to the border not only to make a border more efficient but also to legitimate name manage threats whether cybersecurity threats or terror threats before it gets to either one of our countries. and the whole idea of beyond the border is to really accelerate the work on cybersecurity and it's critically important for all of us. we work not only with canada and the united states at other countries like the u.k. and new zealand and australia as well on strategies and there have been
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lots of great interventions in cybersecurity risk that there is still a lot more work to do. >> is particularly important for the relationship between the united states and canada because of the interconnection of our critical infrastructure whether pipeline -- and most notably telecommunications. therefore, as the prime minister said a threat to one country is a threat to both countries and this is a vulnerability and i think it's a vulnerability that sometimes we don't take as seriously as some of those kinetic risks. >> one of the things that make sissy been more challenging is it's exacerbated by the need that we have to be partners at all these different levels, state, local, federal, international, private industry. we work so closely with all these different partners and stakeholders and we do it
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electronically. so this makes the cybersecurity issue even more challenging and vexing for us because the thing that we are trying to do his work is work with all these entities and it puts their systems at risk so that is one of the row problems we have. >> , door, if a few questions for you. one, you are uniquely experience to respond. usurped in afghanistan and up with general petraeus' staff. you saw first-hand what canada is focused on, humanitarian, counterinsurgency issues. the second issue also relates to your service in afghanistan. are returning veterans are coming back to the united states. the unemployment rate is probably double or more than our population as of whole.
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many of our returning service people are troubled, not only physical wounds but psychological wounds. could you address those two issues? one, but the focus of counterinsurgency, humanitarian aid and secondly of equal importance, canada and the united states for returning personnel. >> certainly the ambassador can add value to some of these that i address but working as they did in afghanistan in kabul, the staff in the environment i was in, we were looking at the geopolitical issues within that commander isaf and working with the 40 plus nations who are contributors whether economically or militarily to the campaign. in the context of canada which has clearly shifted from a ground-based campaign towards
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supporting the development of the afghan national security forces, in the end transition to an afghan-led environment is fully dependent on the capacity and capabilities of the afghan national security forces. from both the police and military point of view so that is where canada's nations have evolved. that was a growing need, supporting key training positions throughout the various commands in the ansf to work where the government valued its efforts in terms of supporting the campaign in afghanistan, for the next 20 years. when you consider how afghanistan is going to evolve, its long-term success is related to its own staff. that is why canada's mission up to the end of 2014 is going to support the death element of those. when we look at the sailors, soldiers, airmen and women who
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returned from afghanistan and i'm sure very similar to your experience in the united states, they're our range of issues. we talk and rightly so of the personal sacrifice and in some cases ultimately the ultimate sacrifice for individuals die on the battlefield in support of our national interest in afghanistan. and yet, for every individual who has made that sacrifice and the families that are affected by them, it's not just the individual. it's their entire center including their families. you have people who are injured in some way or another, whether it's physically, emotionally or mentally. that is why significant efforts within the veterans affairs organization increase the level of support. recently have accelerated and added to address the post-traumatic stress disorder that we see affecting it a
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substantive percentage of returning soldiers. i don't quite know the statistics but that is one of those things that is very difficult to measure in the first place and secondly putting a program in place for soldier on and other initiatives which will allow our servicemen accommodations and continued employment to the extent that their injuries might allow to the point that they are innate career transition point or whether they are provided with the necessary support whether it's connecting with clinics and specialized expertise. much is gone on and i follow with great interest the evolution within the united states military and sped seen those parallels and how we both recognize -- on cybersecurity. >> i also think when we look, and i think the united states and canada have an opportunity on security to go to energy independence over this next
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decade, what has happened with energy efficiency, free mobility, shell gas and oil both in canada and the united states which i think would be a great military security shown also a great economic security issue but with that will be a lot more dull thing that needs to go on in that energy infrastructure. and i think the idea of having -- the idea of having helmets in hard hats that are being supported at both the canadian and defense department and the u.s. defense department building trades and other organizations are very practical way of trying to say to people, we have a responsibility to ensure that there is an on ramp for military personnel coming back for those forces that are going ahead. we want to have practical on-ramps for military personnel on both sides of the border so we are building that international bridge. let's make sure that veterans
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get trained and get those jobs so they can have a career if they are not staying longer in the military. we have done good work that we have a lot more work to support those efforts and i agree with the commodore. the number of people who have survived these attacks -- the good news is they're a there are a lot more people surviving, but there is a huge amount of challenge for the veterans coming back to both countries. >> if i may serve, we have the opportunity to visit many different medical centers whether it's walter reed or -- in a wife. wife. if you haven't ever been i strongly encourage you to go because it is a very moving and heartwarming experience. you run into these young men and women and they are young, who have been injured in combat and
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to try to offer them something and you go what can i do for you young man or young woman. a lot of them the first thing they will say to you as i would like to go back to the unit. you go you were missing your leg. it doesn't matter but we upgrade capability right now. the medical capabilities have improved over the years and you'll see these young kids to go through period of depression when they come out of that they will have several different types of legs, a leg to ski with, a leg to snowboard with because our capabilities have gotten so well. we have young man who lost one leg and the other leg was damaged by an improvised explosive device in iraq. you would ask him, how is your leg the one that has the new leg on it. he goes, that's fine but it's the other one that bothers me now because the doctor say that leg but he's in pain all the
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time. he was going through the mental collaborations that i may ask the doctor to take this one too just to do away with the pain because the capabilities we have has become so much better. >> before we get onto q&a in just a moment, admiral parks, you have to hats, admiral and ambassador. talk about very briefly, talk about your ambassadorial world as an environmentalist. that is a big one. >> yes, sir it really is someone of the things i would say and i think ambassador doerr alluded to it earlier when he made the comment how we have had the pleasure of meeting before and talking about these issues and working very closely together. i think we really do have, when you talk about the great lakes, you really need to understand that it is a unique, unique area
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and we like to do the illiterate shin that it is a sensitive, shared system. seasonal, salt was, sensitive, shared system and when you work your way through that, you realize how important is that we share this. the internal waters of the two countries, and we cannot parse that in a closer. we really do work very closely together and try to work with her constituents because the watershed is for 30 million people so we have to be mindful of that but there has to be the ability to use that waterway because of the commerce and because of the things that are so vital to our economies. we have to find a way to do that safely and in a way that provides good stewardship. we work very closely with their different stakeholders whether its industry, environmental groups, whether it's her two
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countries and we have a number of agencies on both sides of the border that have equity as well as the states in in the provinces. so this is a very multifaceted approach and we have to work well together and we have to take the time. to privilege to work with each of these gentlemen for example on these issues. >> we book ends as well and we share the seas that enter our content from the west coast. that is a shared waterway. you are coming and, you are coming in the water of the other country. it's not straightforward in the weight is managed and again we have the combined control and management of this waterway and the straits on the other side. >> a lot of people don't realize the ship writer program our officers and coast guard personnel are training at the same locations in charleston south carolina and are coming together on the same boat.
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the fact that they are working together and we are not boring about a -- but working together. we have absolutely clear ability to enforce the law and protect the borders instantly with both forces together. you know it worked for example during the olympics on the west coast and its great model. i just think it's a great program. >> sera, there is a bi-national success story in montréal where two countries are doing water inspection and every vessel coming to the great lakes and we can tell you based on the science that over the past six years there have been no new -- being introduced because of the bi-national program we put in place so it's yet another example of how our country's works so seamlessly.
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>> the panel has thrown out a number of themes and we are blessed to have a wonderful live audience. it's time for q&a. lets ask for the first question. >> both countries have a 12.5-mile limit with respect to their sovereignty. what is to prevent a terrorist from being 13 miles out and lobbying a missile at one of the vital cities on the coast? >> a good question dealing with counterterrorism. who wants to take that? >> there are a couple of things. first of all the coastal region, we have the ability to monitor that kind of activity. using our different center capabilities and things like
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norad, northcom and their different naval assets and intelligence capabilities. don't misunderstand, its internal waters are you go right up to the border between the two countries so there is no international waters in the great lakes. so that is not an issue but in the coastal zone and my good friend who has spent a lot of time in the coastal zone can tell you that, that really is an area where i don't think we have that concerned where the distance offshore matters to us. we want to push that as far as possible. that is our goal. our goal is to take this away as far as possible and we have programs in place where we do that's trying to determine who is coming, what is coming and when it's coming into the united states. so much of our commerce comes through the waters. >> there is something we did not do correctly. it's hard to try to figure out because the oceans are big but
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the idea to know who is coming from way off of our coast to a point of origin as possible, that would help alleviate that problem. it's a concern that we never get to this 13-mile issue where we have a potential threat. >> certainly if we were let to look at this from a practical assistance point of view, both countries have reporting requirements for vessels that are declaring themselves coming to north america. a slight difference in timing whether it's a 48 hour or 48 r. report. both countries and i know canada for sure, each country has a fusion center that both share information but also work on its own information protocol. so for example in the operation center, we know who has declared they are coming to north the care of bound from canada and we know based on the automatic
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identification system that is a requirement now for vessels beyond a certain size to have a transponder that says this is where i'm going in this is where i'm declaring i'm going. when you have someone who is at the 12-mile territorial waters in the exclusion zone of the two countries, which relates to different levels of authorities and mandates for which we have the responsibility and authority over the vessels coming then we say we have a dog and we know that doc matches the customs related information and we know that they're coming and that allows those stocks that are friendly dogs. for those that are not believe me we send airplanes to look at the ones that don't match. we find illegal immigration vessels coming to canada and we track them in and we say yeah we leave it together with their
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partners to make sure we understand it and then we -- with of course the appropriate canadian law-enforcement agency on board that has a mandate over that for customs border service agencies because they have the immigration portfolio and mandate. so we are active in that regard. >> if i could broaden the question a little bit because it's a very good question but it doesn't apply to maritime awareness. it applies to planes flying into the country. and that is what the beyond the border initiative is all about. the whole idea of it is that borders and talk about 12 miles, whatever the physical border or the air border, borders are the worst places to make decisions about anything. if you want to make those
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decisions as far away from the border as you can and in some instances another continent, and the way you do that is with information and with sharing of information. that is what this whole thing is about whether you're talking about people driving across the border or planes flying across the border or planes flying from europe to canada and begin i. we share information. we need to do a better job of sharing information, protecting people's privacy and rights but we need to do it and that is what this whole thing is about. >> other good questions? excellent panel. we are all in your debt. it is quite possible that the global climate change that -- won't be frozen anymore. should that happen what are the implications force canadian security and for cooperation with the united states to deal with the problems that arise if suddenly the sea lanes become
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more navigable. >> first of all to mitigate, we have had not fully in agreement with the president on a 17% reduction over -- and part of that was by the way light vehicles, the ones we all drive having the same energy-efficient standards to reduce oil consumption and reduce emissions. we also have agreed to the secretary of state clinton that black carpet agreement to try to again reduce the pressure particularly on the impact of warming on the arctic. having said that, we are also very involved in that counsel together, both in terms of the environment of that region, the navigability of that region, the security of that region, the mapping of resources for example and the sea in that region and
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we continue to improve our capacity on, you know in that region and all of those areas. canada is sharing the arctic counsel for the next couple of years and then the united states takes over so we will have a little run at some of these -- we are quite pretty with everybody but sometimes it's good to hold a pen in terms of these international initiatives between our countries. but there are canadian and american ships in the arctic as we speak. >> what i would add is, it is something that is clearly on their radar in canada's decision to design and build the arctic -- a vessel that will have the capacity to. [inaudible] right now for example the canadian operation has a substantive exercise component.
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with the injection of the triton, great name and the juniper and the st. john as well as the -- operating the north we are looking at major air search types of exercises and environmental because we recognize the fragility of the environment in the context of its ecosystem. so it will affect it in the food chain in a very linear way. call-in cullen
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if they're going to go and use that. the northwest passage will be north of canada. >> another question. actually two questions. regarding the war of 1812, i've always thought of it as a british-american war.
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we see it presented here is a canadian america war. my question is that the forces from canadian british sources, where they have virtually no to the troops recruited in great britain, or what percentage of them were canadian unit, people from canada, the canadian citizens are running numbers i'm not? >> that's a good question. >> ii think the war a couple stages from the canadian side. the first stage when i think jefferson set out they had to do is march and will conquer canada and with 400,000 people in canada and 1 million in in the united states. the first stage is pretty domestic. aboriginal people, the british forces located in canada, some
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of the french military, french canadian military personnel and as they say a lot of participation of the aboriginal people at the time. then of course because britain was preoccupied, then of course after reaching 14, there is a coincidence to the timing of the so-called lighthouse, which i can't say as a diplomat after some of those victories by britain. and the treaty that was ultimately reach. so was to stages, but certainly were a british colony with lots of participation from local people in canada, including the aboriginal people. some of the analysis that the postwar treatment in terms of how canada and the united states did fairly unanimous in their evaluation. but there is also the ms opinion
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of the aboriginal people didn't get treated as well as others after the great sacrifice during the war. >> 7000 british regulars and approximately 14,000 u.s. militia men at various levels of training and readiness six. from your own structure. and there was a loose confederation under to come say of first nations and as the admiral, the investor mentioned there is always though french canadian unit that form together. many of the regiments, the reserve regimen are a direct result of the conflict and their traditions draw back is considered here. so we also had heard of provincial marine forces similar to the context of citizen sailor putting together with the responsibility to defend.
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but a not large numbers of three senior military control. >> we've had one bite of the apple. let's get another question. >> i have a statement and a question. [inaudible] >> the cold war had been accomplished together is that a side. the missile defense and the defense system. now my question would be, what and if you gentlemen speculate what kind of a world would we fit to be, would we have caused the cold war? >> very good question.
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[inaudible] [inaudible conversations] >> well, it's going to be a long and very. i don't know if we can give you the specifics. and maybe we can ponder it at another time. >> another resource question. rare earth metal. given their computer and electronics and a large number of percentage of them that are chinese controlled, for this to ambassadors, to what extent their exploration, development and accessibility of candidate in the rare earth metal resources discussed in diplomatic and trade talks between our two countries? >> the first thing that i
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learned when i got up there and people started talking about metal as they are not all that rare. the problem is that the said city sees process their prayer where. they came from the american west and their clothes because they were an economic. the chinese process them and they have the monopoly, but they had a very large percentage of the global production at the moment. the answer to the question as there is a lot of discussion on a lot of rare earth metals in canada. but it gives the issue of less where they are to get them out of the ground and issue much more the cost and processing facilities in outlying voltaic. >> another question.
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>> could you comment on what you see as the prospects, i guess the potential for the keystone pipeline? >> i'll let ambassador dewhurst talk about that. >> august 26 is the anniversary, which we were very pleased with because it dealt with some of the comments that were not factually true in a very objective way. and then in november 1st, the special session of their house, the governor called it to oppose the regime that the state department had recommended. that in turn resulted on november 10th time in the president decided to delay the approval of the pipeline. and since then, we've been working on getting an amended group in nebraska. the reason the president used the november 10th versus sandhill portion.
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were very close to having an agreement in nebraska that hopefully will be hopeful in washington. i think that there is that there projects going ahead, other pipelines moving ahead. you know, refineries and ahead here. they're built on the 27%. i really do believe that we are going to broaden the question because i think the united states is in a situation now and they haven't been there since richard nixon talked about it, president nixon talked about the ability in north america that has energy independent and that includes energy efficiency like light vehicles, proving the equality of energy efficiency and includes renewal ability, and enclose the development in a safe way of shell gas and i think it also means canadian and
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u.s. oil. when you look at the keystone pipeline, a lot of americans don't know that 20% of that oil on the pipeline is oil from north dakota and montana,. there are major improvements in canada, some of which aren't always appreciated in the debate, but i've look at the public in the united states and every poll since the decision and every poll recently as a three to one margin that the american scene go ahead with the pipeline. saturday night in nebraska, people say go ahead with it. we want that oil from canada, but we want to solve that portion, so that passover focusing focusing on now. i believe once that solves, the project should go ahead. i believe it will go ahead, but the canadian termini thesis before coming up the pitcher hits in the air, so were going
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to keep working on it. for a helmet still hard hats, we think it works on a lot. >> i would like to add something to that. the issue is not, as the ambassadors that can adjust the keystone pipeline. that is one quite frankly, relatively small subset of a much bigger issue. and the issue is how do you build infrastructure, both within the united states, within canada to get the energy from where it is to where it's needed. usually it is not where it's needed. there is a huge issue to potential of hydroelectric power, which is clinging. it is certainly better than coal, better than most other things. and happy to be in new york city or boston and upper québec,
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manitoba. and the question is, how do we get it from where it is what is true of oil, natural gas, and the issues being fought out in canada, the issue of moving oil from alberta or british columbia is a complicated question and somehow or another will have to sort this out and decide that we can do this in an environmentally sensitive way so they can take advantage of this potential energy, which may be the biggest development in america and generations. >> we have about two minutes or so. let's do a take away. and how about our panel in this one bullet that we would like our ideas to take away from our discussion. >> i'll take the first one. we have a great relationships
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with their countries and to talk about stuff in the future. right now about the world is young americans serving 24 hours a day, seven days a week, five vcr, making sacrifices we talked about earlier to ensure we have freedoms we enjoy today so the economy does prosper. >> admiral park. >> i had keep that thought obviously. but i'd be remiss if in the summer in chicago i didn't talk about safety and the importance for everybody because that's a binational issue to shared and members of the sea service we obviously share it with her and for your safety on the water. were your life jacket, don't drink about and be careful out there. >> when i first got to washington i learned some and that the special versus
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established between any two countries was the doubles per day. people from canada, usually miners, lumberjacks, farmers got trained and dropped behind the enemy lines in world war ii. and it's a great story of our cooperation together. but with all of the navy brass are today, have got to pay tribute to the bravery, the skills and the effect goodness of the navy seals and holding to account osama bin laden. so i just want to thank those navy seals. >> quick, there's a lot of very special thanks about the relationships in the united states and canada, but to me the most special thing and relationship is how we deal with problems, that unlike the way we do with problems of almost any in the world that we have a problem, you said down, talk
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about it, talk about it like grownups and try to solve it. i think evidence today, people here on the panel, particularly ambassador doer and discussions on a regular basis and i know that the american people are pretty grateful. >> i would bridge that comment because, you know, in a way if you think about what were already discussing and debating on, if you think about all the things we don't argue about, it's amazing. the number of things we do not have to argue about. and i drawback to the war of 1812 in one of the major lessons learned from a wonderful academic debate panel here yesterday on the war of 1812 was preparation and being sure that we together, as two nations, work and invest in our resources and invest in infrastructure to ensure that we are prepared and
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able to safeguard our nation. >> let me once again thank the canadian council general thought this for your initiative and sponsoring this event. the pritzker military library for hosting so many important cultural and military historical meetings. i'm once again, to our panelists, thank you for being there. we are delighted and good day. [applause] >> i think our job is not to ask got your questions. >> but it is trying to get fair answers out of him and that is how i approach my job. i am not looking to catch, you
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know, when jay carney is a press briefing, i'm not looking to necessarily catch and then they asked how she said the other day. it's just trying to get information to inform people with.óó [applause]
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>> good morning, everybody. this is an opportunity for me and for charlotte to be back in speaking again understand the stage. we had a wonderful time when we were here last year. last year i was speaking about intelligence, basically about the way particular the british intelligence services had to change in order for the changing threat of our security. this year i have rather a different hat on. i'm worried to hats really. my hat is a former intelligence officer and my hat is a thriller writer, which i now am. the fact that both those hats that my head as you might say comes about from the fact that my books are actually based on things that happened to me, things i knew about during my career as an intelligence publisher and my characters are based broadly on people i've met or heard about during that time
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and all my plots a thing comes straight out of my time at my size. so i am approaching the sub active radicalism today through these two points of view. radicals as a security threat and radicals as characters for novelists. it's a bit like a question from the university examination paper on the know, the payer and contrast. [laughter] i'm sure that during this week, different lectures have been defining radicalism in very different ways. but what i am most interested in sf i say the security security intelligence asked back msn novelists really as well on my personality. i am interested in the points where radicalism turns into
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extremism. it is true that in a stable, modern democracies such as we've had been on both sides of the atlantic, radical thinkers who talk about change or rate did not change are not regarded as threats to our security, i might go insane totalitarian countries, where you're not really about to pretend in any way. you're certainly not about to speak. you're not allowed to write. you're hardly about to think about dissent. and if you think about the soviet union during the cold war and eastern european countries, you can see an example of that. no dissent is tolerated. in the same were recently really had in libya and the return of gadhafi where you are not allowed to dissent. in zimbabwe as well, i would say another totalitarian state.
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and even maybe one can sigh and russia. i don't know if you've been reading about the group of young women who sang a song and make a drill and and were immediately kept in prison and are awaiting a try which seems to be inevitably going to end prison sentence. so that is totalitarianism in its day. in a democracy, security services like my, mi5 only get concerned that involved when radicals turn into extremists. in other words, when they start to take some kind of action, particularly violent destructive action to bring about the changes that they're thinking about, talking about. and in taking this action, they threaten the security of the state. so that is what interests
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intelligence. and those are the kinds of people to also interest novelists, the people who do extreme and extraordinary things. those are the most interest are yours to people who write novels. fiction writing is only really interested in is used, the causes if you like to this stance but they eliminate the characters and expand the actions that they take. i think nowadays, most people would agree that the job of a novelist is not to judge people, not to take sides in any way, but to observe them and analyze what they do, why they do it commit to take this piece is, if you like, and put them together again and interesting, readable, exciting sort of ways. so i want to talk about some radical extremists that i've dealt with and sometimes manage
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in the course of my career and how i can sound other novelists have presented in fiction. so that's my job for the morning. i've chosen three types of radical extremists you might say to talk about. and the first one is five. particularly those spies who are motivated by some sort of ideology. these are the people who take radical action to undermine, destroyed or changed their own countries by working covertly for a foreign power. i think there's so much more interesting than those who merely sell secrets in it for the money. they're not radical a set of. they're just selfish. my second category that i'm going to talk about is what you might call radical protesters,
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people who have some sort of personal grievance against the society they live in and to use violent against those whom they think are to blame for the things they are in agreement about. and thirdly i will talk about terror, both religious extremists who seem to regard particularly society only so it can be replaced by something else and political, people who use terrorism to receive a political end, whether it independence or whatever it might be. so those are going to be my three categories. before you get on with them, i just wanted to give resolve to the earliest writers of ascension. as i say nowadays, most fiction writers are much more interested in characters van and issues.
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fiction is not seen nowadays as it is the cause of proselytizing or pushing across your ideas for a new form of society. it is spinning tales for interest, stimulation for a good reason. that's the appraiser used in connection with the book that i was criticized for something that was a good read. but i do believe for a good read, whatever kind of ridiculous it's got to be a good read. so fiction is not really something we cannot proselytize. spinning tales enters stimulation. but we shouldn't forget that the novels actually began dashti began as a way of expressing radical and political ideas. if you go back to the beginning
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of the novel in the early 18th century to come up against daniel do so, it was widely thought and he wrote was all heard about the story of a man who was marooned on a desert island. and the story itself, the story of this man on a desert island to fund a colleague caught the imagination really a generation and this remained a favorite even to this day. but it wasn't just storytelling. daniel do so was using his story to express his own radical ideas, thomistic ideas they were about individual morality and how it shapes society. and they were shaping what turned out to be a pretty pleasant society.
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i'm not a sealskin jonathan swift who wrote gulliver's travels. he had a very different, less up to mystic view of individuals and societies. the sub title of gulliver's travels is called travel into several remote nations of the world. as remember clovers travels at all come to your members of went off and they all turned out to be extremely noddy. vicious in different ways. and they were meant to show what john swift thought was how very wrong societies and politics can go. most of these early writers of fiction are using prescription for them to put across ideas, which is not radical was certainly designed to promote discussion as was a bit later on in the 19th century, charles
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taken. he was using his novels to raise the conscience of a nation to the social evils and deprivation. but all of them were more interested in promoting political ideas, raising the issues and create incredible real-life characters. you've really got to think about all of the twists to go around thinking okay, well now here is not a dollar realistic to her when dickens' writing him. he's no more real than robinson caruso west. they were all stereotypes in those days. rather like the 18th century carriage they are, iraq's progress, for example. those characters certainly would not muster the critics today when your literary yours are due
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to be realistic and novelists are now praying for their ability to observe, analyze and reconstruct the characters they write about. so i think having given a nod to her former numbers, i watched the sub thing about these three types of modern extremists that i mentioned at the beginning. this bias, radicals and terrorists. and i'm going to talk about some of the real evil at come across during my career at mi5 and my fictional author. i joined mi5 in the late 1960s and my first job was an armed counter espionage branch. in those days, the great stink of espionage in the western world came of course are in the intelligence the soviet union and their allies in the eastern european countries.
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the most famous group of spies about. where what came to be known as the cambridge spies, five young men from middle class backgrounds, radicals and that they convinced themselves or allowed themselves to be convinced that the socialist worker the state such as communists created in russia, the town was an inspiring alternative to what they saw as a class ridden sackville-west, where much of the u.s.a. and in the united kingdom, millions of people were out of work. and i have to say that those young men, that they would different in what they did were not really allowed in that view of soviet communism. a number of prominent intellectuals in the late 20s and 30s, among them, the playwright george bernard shaw, a founder of the london
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economics all believe the same thing, but somehow, some kind of golden era was being created in the soviet union. and they visited the country during the early 1930s and they came away persuaded that the agricultural revolution being conducted with some sort of return to a golden age. they saw what the results of the agricultural revolution were, which was to the countryside and that was what people used. later of course, many did find out what was actually going on in the soviet union as they learned more and more about it. but the cambridge spies, these five young men were desperate for the active dialog's they
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didn't just talk about it. they took action. and while they were still at cambridge university or shortly after they left, they had a cleverer recruitment by russian intelligence officer in for years they supplied the soviet union with extreme information from inside the establishment and of the government department intelligence services, et cetera. and they joined the foreign office and handed over among other things diverges and labors of the foreign office where he became private secretary to the minister with all the access. kim kilby who joined at my six and was head of the department had revealed all of the sources of the soviet union, most of whom were killed. and strip him who joined mi5 and
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handed over suitcase of documents to the russian embassy in london. and maybe the equivalent of your msa. the cambridge spies, their motivation, the characters, similarities to businesses of persons they were exposed. they continue to fascinate me. why did a group of golden boys fall under the sway of a cruiser from the virtual machine and betray their own country? what was said about them that their relationship with each other and relationship with their recruiter turns them into probably the most successful group of spies ever.
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by the time i joined mi5 in the late 1960s, three had five and a reliving, no doubt having a dreadful time to the delight of the west. but they don. don mclean went to gather in 1851. when they were alerted by kim kilby who is working for mi6 in washington and who knows some of the russian had been broken and were just about to be exposed. and he told them off they went. he later followed don when he himself sellout. and when i joined in the early 17 senate really knew what is going on, british and u.s. intelligence was still formed by the betrayal, by the penetration of the establishment.
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there was a sense, i remember to this day that she couldn't trust anybody, that anybody might be working for the other side. the only one of the spies that he personally met as he came to be called with the latest, the last to be uncovered. and i conducted the seriousness during the 1970s. he gone to live in france at the time. he'd been given immunity from prosecution by the british government on the terms that whenever he came to britain he would make himself available for interviews by the intelligence services. i can remember really -- the point was what he was supposed to do was to tell us all about hiecruitment and how it came about and a lemonade situation
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that we still really haven't and we were still anxious in those days to discover whether any other young man had been recruited during that period and might still be in positions in her public service. it was an important investigation. the interviews i remember now to place in the early evenings in a room in in the early 70s in london. those places were gloomy. the furniture was all dark and old-fashioned and there was a sense of gloom about the place. when i think back now and my memory it was always raining on the eve name. on the evenings when i saw him. and i can recall this day and figure coming in out of the rain with the don depressed raincoat
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and he presented himself to me as an intellectual culture that was a young man had only agreed to work the soviet union because of the anti-sentiment. and he regarded these and a sparring match. he was not going to tell me anything more than he absolutely was forced to do. and of course so long ago he could cover up quite easily. so many investors press looking old man had conduct did this sparring match and then off he went into the race. it was all an act and i guess it wasn't all an act, but i later learned just how much of an act it was because two years later i got to know his niece. a woman just a bit younger than me. she's now a very famous redish economist and the head of one of the colleges at oxford
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university. and at the time, she didn't know anything about the spying. and i learned from talking to her about it that on the evenings when he left me and went out into the rain, you went to stay at her house in north london. we compared notes about this and she was absolutely amazed because she saw him as her rather glamorous uncle. the charming ladies man. a conversationalist, et al. are interesting and amusing stories. and we would compare notes and make it hard to believe that this was the same man. not at all the downtrodden character i met. so because of the short journey on the bus in north london, he changed himself from this great intellectual into the ladies man
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that she heard. so she was true the two faces, two faces event on the same evening. i used my experiences investigating ties for most of my bike to call them in my second novel and i imagined a young man who had been recruited to infiltrate mi5 on the behalf of the ifa because i like to bring my closet today. my, liz carlyle in mi5 investigates in much the same way as we did when her try to find out if there any remaining spies, any remaining members have you might say. she digs deep into the past candidates she has been she looks at all her contacts and what they did in their youth, et cetera. that's the way they did it and that the way they do it in my novel and other novels written
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about infiltration. and this theme of betrayal has provided for by material from its fiction. why would someone betray their country or their colleagues? and the answer that most novelists, poets visits the personality of this by rather than the extreme ideology and that of course is what interest novelists. if you think about this by book about infiltration on both end the trail, he is no doubt the trigger for espionage and hubris arrogance, the feeling that one knows better than anyone else. the spy seems to draw nourishment from his same superiority and self-worth that comes from having the seat that
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lies, playing the role, deceiving everybody. and if you haven't seen the new film, and you should. it's really great and it gets over both the gloom of that. , the gloom that i remember when i first started to serve fitness uneasy sense and also gets over this wonderful character who is absolutely imbued with a sense of his own writing and outcomes. the secretive personality of this by his as i say exporting a number of votes. but there's another wonderful one i can recommend to call began touchable by john bond sale. john bond still is later but i know this book is published in the u.s.a. because he was here in the u.s.a. that i first read it. it is a fictionalized recreation of anthony blanche and the cambridge spy ring, the other one who didn't flee to russia.
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long before it was done about, became a very respect to hager in the art world. he lives became keeper of the queens pictures before he was exposed as a spy. and that came as a shock to the queen. [laughter] in the untouchable, john bonsall portrays this old man living a solitary life in london, clutching to him the secret retractor recommit trudging the moment when it's going to be exposed, haunted by the spirit of discovery. it's very real and extremely good and very readable. unlike the cambridge spies and their sense of superiority, the genuinely convinced radical, the
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true ideological spies do not buy such a track for the novelists i don't think because it's a true ideological spies don't have a self-analysis. justice quiets unquestioning conviction that they are right and the cause they service the right because there is to british woman called the leader in more worried and she was just such a spy. she was a truly great lady, a perfect spy it turns out. she was secretary and a british research institution. she was a convinced communist from the 1940s onward and she quietly spied for over 40 years completely undiscovered. she was the longest-serving soviet by in the u.k. she was only exposed when a
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defector came across. we had no idea she was doing what she'd been doing. she recruited other people to spy and she herself handed over a secret that should have access to where she worked as secretary. the kgb and the end awarded her pension because she has served them so long completely good. but she was exposed in the 1990s, she was an absolute case to the media. there is this dark on lady in her 80s clutching a shopping bag, totally unexpected and not at all the kind of spy that the media and novels have taught us to explain, to expect. and the times newspaper with their time and that she cared or
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raised here is the spy who came in from the co-op. [laughter] with her shopping bag, that's what she was. she was not a character of a spy novel, but she was a true extremists. the other extreme, the james bond burkett is radical that we like to call it glamour and evil but eggs the elite. no character or motives analysis. the book on how much the secret service and the laboratory, which is conveniently born and he's got a laboratory out there to spread botulism and swine fever in all kinds of other hideous diseases throughout the
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united kingdom. this is a hugo track in mood breaker, aiming to destroy london with a nuclear missile. in goldfinger to steal the gold from fort knox in order to finance the beast merge. an income of these characters have always thought absolutely incredible. but i have to say that in recent years, while in recent i began to wonder whether those bond villains are actually as incredible as i thought they were. we have living in london at the moment quite a number of the russian oligarchs, those people who got very rich when yeltsin started selling off the national asset and they were able to get loaded into their hands to make billions and billions of dollars. these guys come in many of them
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multibillionaires says that all art has begun with large parts of real estates and various other desirable places, but the interesting thing is they have begun to sue each other in our court. in the latest case, concerned with the media describe as the bloodsoaked aluminium mooring. it is the struggle for the control of russia's last wealth between some of these characters. a character who was billed as one of the oligarchs of the time courted by the world's elite and a pair possessor of billions of pounds of fortune on it in her come the biggest in the world of coors being sued by another equally unsavory area described as a criminal drug czar in russia's most dangerous.
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it is a tale of extortion, bank fraud, bribery of politicians and murder. unfortunately for us, these cared very since i say have great faith in justice. last night so we've got this uncodified specular send daring and our court. still, looking on the bright side there's another ian fleming out there, he's got belinsky hand. i could go on about spies and spy stories, but i move on to my second category radicals, which are your personal grievance. in the early 1970s again, a new form of radical dissent begins to appear in europe and on the side of the atlantic as well in the shape of radical
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student groups. people broadly associated with the process about the war in vietnam say concerns about human rights. like cambridge spies, most of those got involved in the 60s and 70s came from highly educated backgrounds and didn't feel the need to escape from this sort of sheltered bush westlife but they were being brought up in and they moved into squats instead of collect eggs were they shared resources and went about discussing their grievances. many of them did no more than protest in the streets. sometimes more, sometimes less than broadly in the name of civil rights. but these protesters had to be
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pleased. however, some of the most extreme of weapons training learned how to explode, to make them explode bomb and carry out bombs or shoot them. one of the most violent as one in germany. there was another name for them, the red army faction with the red repeat in spain and in the u.s.a., you had the weapon, which some of you may remember. different groups. in the degree of stress. the weatherman group here was one of the most extreme violent radicals who planted palms in chicago and washington and in new york in the early 70s. but i i think the longer-lasting the most damaging was in germany who killed more than 30 people
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during the late 60s and 70s, including businessmen and bankers they shot them, came out and eventually murdered then and there is still on into an 1880s and they were mainly middle-class youngsters who saw themselves as capitalist establishments were former not these were running businesses and this was the grievance they had against society. i can remember the concern we felt in mi5 in the early 70s then we discovered we had group at that as well. they called themselves the atom bury brigade. in fact, because of lack of alarm by planting for bombs and offices and houses of government industries and industrialists. the ringleaders were soon arrested thomas and not a great deal of harm is done and they were and present. not that long ago i met one of those he'd be in that group. she was -- is long after prison
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when i met her head in every respect about charity in britain and looking at her and talking to her now, it's hard to credit that even when she was young she realize planting bombs in the home as furthering her cause, whatever the cost might be. novelists have long been fascinated by irving berlin solutions, just as they have this bias. the background, the different motivations, interplay of characters provides massive material to fiction writers. in the beginning of the 20th century 1996, and novelists call jesse conrad in which he explores the motivation of war
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college anarchist and he tells the story is someone who had infiltrated one of these groups than his controller had told him to book the greenwich observatory said they would get the blame and be wiped out at the mixed motives and personality. but more recently, many of you will have read the book, american pastoral, in which she explores a young woman who joins the weatherman. the story hinges on this young woman come in the-year-old daughter of an unhappy businessman. she is an only child, but she falls and what the weatherman and up a post office and kills
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the local doctor. it's 1968. there he goes into hiding. she comes destitute and gets involved in further bombings had one setback in new york. but now she's filthy, has a veil over her face. now she's dedicated to such extremes of nonviolent but she could scarcely bring herself because of the murder that is involved. she's taken her jainism to great extremes and the novel revolves around what mary has done, the death that she has cost him the question of how disrespectful it jewish businessman and his wife, who is a former miss new jersey, how could they have given her to this dislocated character and of course the question can't be
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answered but to deliver various possibilities. is it because the parents are so respect the ball, so decent, so liberal that is much against the war in vietnam, is that why the girl has to turn out this way? or is this kind of an american allegory here in different generations, only to colin violent or fair. or has the parents done everything they possibly could and should have done and do she started changing to remind us that the an explicit access? and anyway, what is wrong with their life? as the novel and, she asked, what on earth is less reprehensible than the light of the level? and he provides no answer. so it is a book that exposes the issues, that doesn't miss any answers. it's just a book of earlier
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bragging, which i think is enough. we had a british novel that won the nobel prize or literary in 2007 when she was 87, as a result i feel. [laughter] she became a feminist icon. she tackled the same theme in her book, the good parent, which he published in 1985. she shows how the certain people at certain times although the sort of hopes and hurt the disappointments in life can spill over into a hit back at something to be noticed en masse, to take some kind of action against the system, whatever the system is and the people it seemed to disregard it you and hurt you. the radicals are an assorted group of dysfunctional characters who live in a squad
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in a rundown derelict house in london. it is a group like the angry brigade i remember. they are out. angry about society, but in fact causes their own inadequacies have gone the way they are. disaster strikes this group and they naïvely offer their services to the ira and the crossover to terrorism. mention of the ira brings me onto my final category of radical extremism. these are political and religious terrorists. i can see a sharp distance between these two. politically motivated terrorist changing circumstances, whether as a new form of government, whether it's land, freedom to their own state or whatever it is. religion seems to me to want to
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wipe out the van completely and with an enormous demonstration of hate, political analysts and journalists portray terrorists in the most frightening terms aren't fast with their one idea, whether it's getting the printout of northern ireland in the case of the ira are whether it's to destroy what they see as an evil western was patient to destroy israel and whatever it might be. this is what is so obsessed that any amount of violent, and the death connect to people, children or whoever are justifiable to done. to a novelists, the question is much more complicated. how did they get to that point? people of such singletrack sessions are actually rare and
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they are not born. they are made. so why and how? let's take the higher rate as an example because that is something i know well. their example is the first capital, politically motivated terrorists. once the terror leader, though he may not deny presents himself now as the most reasonable thinking politician and he obviously enjoys an arthur mcginest who's now a minister in northern ireland, once was an ira commander looks comfortable now and is smart to commend business meetings, politicians and state and. he would say, and he does say that in the desire to give birth side of northern ireland and establish a unified country of ireland, they have no option but to report. he conveniently forgot that though he blames the british army for the reason why they have no option in order to deal
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with the violence of the ira. but be that as it may come even if what he says is true doesn't explain why under their leadership the ira became one of the better organized and disciplined and well equipped terrorist groups ever with teams devoted to the development and acquisition of weaponry of all kinds of missiles, ieds, von delayed fuses and the thought and received money from colonel gadhafi during the 1980s. how is that explained? is difficult to get away from the feeling that terrorism is of became superfluous of their lives and they wanted to be good at it. just as they now want to be good statesmen, there's no doubt that the ira was attractive and created brutal killers, but the
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most interesting people i think are the more complicated multifaceted. i met some members of terrorist organizations on both sides of the divide in northern ireland when i was responsible for counterterrorism at mi5. ..
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people who married and had children and didn't want their children to go the same way and become terrorist as they had done. there were multifaceted group of people. very few of them worked for us the money. they were all scared about what they were doing. not surprisingly, they needing constant reshiewrns and sport of all kinds. and i and i colleagues became that's their psychiatrists, their marriage guidance counselors, their financial advisers, and their -- as they went through the difficult period. they were people far more interesting and complex than the classic journalistic representation. there are some good novels written about the ira. many of the best try to exemployer the complexity of the people to join organization that behave in that way. they are not just stories of violence fop move ton my final
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category islamic extremist or islamists. i have no direct experience with these. they people enmerged in the u.k. after the 9/11 and the declaration of of the war iraq. part of the horror what they do such as the attack on the london underground in 2005. the imdiscriminate killing of ordinary people -- people waiting in airports, to get into nightclubs. what particularly horrifies us all and fascinates us all is the fact who did this similarly the salespeople who -- people who did -- my former colleagues managed to prevent these people where mostly born and brought up in the united u.n. kingdom. they are educated in british
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schools and universities. apparently rational people from respectable hard working families. sometime married and with more children. the question for the security services, and for the novelists who portray them is why do they do it? what's dissuaded them to hate their own environment so much that they want to attack it in an almost casual haphazard way to bonded their love ones and life itself even for the one idea they must punish the state, the british state in this case, through revenn really for presumably revenge for the deficit muslims in iraq, afghanistan, palestinian whatever it might be that they have not forefront of their mind. people say that the policy of multiculturalism that britain pursued which is come and live here. bring your own religion, your
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culture, and way of life, that created and has created ghettos in some of our mid land and northern cities. where there are areas that look like the streets -- [inaudible] it's produced, i think, young men who feel alien ated. they don't know which culture they belong to. people say that the situation has been exacerbated by youth and employment in our country leading to boredom. no doubt that's true to some extent as well. it is true that radical non-english speaking have been allowed to come into the country and preach in mosques. and they have been free to preach hate, largely on the unobserved because they don't speak english. most people didn't know what they were doing until the damage had been done. but none of thosest makeses seem to me to wholly sphaer or
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explain the phenomena. i've written two novel the about people my first one which was written a few years after 9/11 was called "at written." it was before we had seen the development of the home grown terrorist i've been talking about and most of us were unaware what was going on. i imagined a young afghan who had a personal grievance coming to britain to conduct a terrorist ape stack against those he specifically blamed for something that happened to his family. he was is helped bay british girl. but is joined the islamist extremist. she's educate the, isolated, middle class, with a grievance against her parents. and becomes interested in islam. and of course, she's picked up by those controlling the young man. she's european, a not the kind of person that the security authorities will be looking
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for. gain recently where after we knew about the home grown terrorists who had carried out the bombings on 7/7 and a book called rip tide. i read that young british man largely from our northern and midland cities were turning up in somalia fighting with allsha baseball. and my imagination started working on how and why they were there. and i chose for the motivation of my character a stern and traditional father, a subservient coward mother, a radical mom, a strong radical friend and a rather weak and scared young man. that seemed to be a mix that might credibly what happens in the plot and what might happen in real life. well, time is presses. that has been a pretty broad sweep approach to radicalism in reality.
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some of you, i'm sure, will have different camps. novels i haven't read. none of what i've said should be taken as excusing the behavior of any of these people i've been talking about. for all my working life, i have been trying to find them out to protect the state against them, to make sure that they are prosecuted and imprisoned and prevented what they're try dpopg as i said at the beginning, now i wear a different hat. i can looked at it from a different angle. novelists are fascinated by radicals and extremists of all kinds. and though radicalextremist believe that they are motivated solely by issues novelists on the whole take a different view. that it is of much human activity as -- i'm sorry, as in much human activity it's
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personality, background, and interplay of characters that effect their behavior, of course, it is that that makes the good stories too. thank you. [applause] [applause] [applause] >> the ushers will be and to collect your questions, if you do need to leaf, please do so quietly so we can move along with the and answer session. our american spies such as rick ames and british spies such as kim similar characters.
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>> as i understand it was motivated by money. so he's one of those people that i am not so interested in because of selfishness the search for a better life with far more motivated ames. soft fee was a more complex character as i've been explaining. he had a dominant father who was middle eastern expert, he was -- you might say a young man dominated by his father. he was a man of great arrogance. he knew better than anybody else and enjoyed obviously enjoyed clutching his secret to him. he denied even when it was pretty obvious he had been working for the soviet union. he denied it in a whole serious of interviews with my service and impressive views. cow could see he was getting enormous enjoyment out of the
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interview. i think thrchesz different character. he was more interesting than perhaps than and more classic financially motivated spy. >> what is your opinion of the exploits of julienne assange? >> my opinion is low -- [laughter] you can imagine. and it is sickens that, i think he is still in britain, and is, you know, taking -- using the every record of the law to prevent himself being returned to scanned 1/2 ya facing charges of rape. but, i mean, julienne assange strikes me as a de-- delewded young man that seems to feel it's necessary to have total openness of everything which of course is a ludicrous concept.
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you cannot runny aspect of security without some kind of secrecy and some kind of crftialty. we need to have some kind of security in dangerous world. so, you know, mindless, again, self-promoting, it seems to me the way he's gone on. i would have to say i have a crittism, i dare to say of the u.s. authorities who created what they called a secret data base, which appears to have been assessable to enormous sums of people. [laughter] including this young man who is accused of being the one who leaked the stuff. and it's, you know, looking at any of the -- it's clear that some of the us [inaudible] secret a all. and i believe, you know, if you have effective security and secrecy you have to distinguish clearly what you need to protect and what you don't need to protect. you must lump them together and dish it out to thousand of people all disaster will insue
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as it has. >> what is the difference between a terrorist and a revolutionary? >> the two can be the same. but a terrorist is one who has resorted to killing people. a revolutionary doesn't necessarily have do that. you can be a revolutionary without killing people. revolution comes in all kinds of different ways. you can promote revolution by talking by writing or gathering people around you and taking political action. i think a terrorist is somebody who sets about to kill people and -- of their objective. i know, that they say one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. but i take a pretty firm view about this. i think once you start -- obviously once you start
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randomly killing people and -- you're a terrorist and you're not a true revolutionary. [applause] >> how do we judge the morality of agents hired or kill or use violence by states rather than operating for demonstrate or antistate organizations? >> this is complex for me. i come from a country where our intelligence services are not thors -- authorized to kill people. if there is killing to be done in my country. it's done by the military. so for example, when you have a situation say a hostage situation people have been taken hostage by terrorist. and it's come to free them. it's taken by the special forces. i don't remember if you can remember we had an iranian
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iranian/london siege. it is the first time we saw them operating on the television cameras as they broke into the embassy killed those who are holding the hose ages and freed the hostages. i personally do take -- i have a difficult way of relating to state sponsored killing. and i know that the cia has got the authority to kill people, and there a lot of unmanned drones going around killing people. as i said, in my country, we take a different approach. we regard terrorism as a crime, terrorist needs to be arrested. it's easy to say that when you you're canceling with terrorist in countries. when you're canceling with tropical storm -- terrorism have a long way away. intelligence services don't kill people. that's my position, i'm afraid. [applause] >> what do you describe the rise
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of slammist extremism. do you believe we are in a protracted conflict with extremism. are you concerned about the ability of our society to survive and maintain the character? >> well, i hope we're not in a prolonged conflict between, you know, the muslim world and the western world. i hope that we're living through a period that going go away as other similar things have. i think the reasons behind all this are very complex. and therefore a very difficult to deal with. and i mentioned a few that i know about in my own society, but i think in the broader sense, i mean, there are a range of issues that have got to be dealt with. one of course is the israel/palestinian issue which provides continue yags --
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continuous which provides a reason for people take terrorist action. there are other reasons, you know, that disparity or economic progress between different parts of the world, for example. you know, the grace of disillusioned young people looking for some kind of cause, some sort of motive. some reason for being important. and i think particularly you find this in africa and obviously in countries in the middle east. i think it's very complex, and it's got to be deal with on many levels. one of them, of course, is the flil level. there is the economic and social level. there is the intelligence level, andic we are making progress quite frankly. but i think we have got a long way go. and the world for a moment is a dangerous place. but i don't see the end of the world is nigh quite frankly. i think the world will grow and the world will settle down.
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something else will crop up. for the moment this will go. [laughter] >> does literature glorify the really a calls that become a extremist? >> i hope not. i think the best literature raises questions rather than glorifying anybody. i don't personally likebooks, you know, that portray radical extremists almost heroes, you know, some brow -- brutality and violence being something we should admire and enjoy reading about. that's not the kind of book i enjoy. i think the most sophisticated novelist is raising question about radical extremist is not saying this is a wonderful thing. is saying why is it happening and, you know, answer yourself. rather like -- "american -- [inaudible] is raising questions about him.
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>> can you compare the fbi to the work of mi5. i have another question that goes to whether or not british intelligence respects the u.s. intelligence services. [laughte] >> british intelligence regards the u.s. intelligence service as the closest ali. they have done every sense the u.s. intelligence service were created. that is a given. they are -- [inaudible] and we are theirs. but that doesn't mean to say that we're not different because we are different. we respect their ability to do what they do but they do it in a different way from our own. that that discounted mean that we can't share intelligence which we don't continually every day and share information how we're going tackle issues. but strengthen the strings
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undoubtly arose during the war in iraq, you know, with these torture, for example, which abandoned my country, and so, you know, there were difficulties. there no doubt about. we've had variation -- in any country and there are inquires about our complicity and the use of torture. there are difficulties, there are differences. that doesn't mean to say that, you know, it isn't -- it is true it that every day on the ground people are meeting, people know each other, people friend with each other and sharing intelligence. and, you know, that is one, i think, the defense's all of us it may long continue. relationship with the fbi is a again very close. my five and the fbi are different. the fbi is a police service and mi5 isn't. we work closely with the police. if there is action to be taken to arrest people on the streets, that's the job of the police
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service, not of mi5. it is an intelligence gathering assessment and action service but it does not have police powers. so that's the difference. but again, we relate extremely closely with the be fbi and during the cold war and are now. >> can you comment on the security issues during the recent olympics that concerned you the most and your observations about how everything was handledded? >> there was a huge, huge security operation surrounding the olympics, and it will have been going on from the day it was announced that london had been awarded outed limericks. at that moment my former colleagues, the police, the military and all will be putting their heads together to decide with the threat was likely to come from and how they were going deal with it. that's is the kind of things the
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security action that you didn't see. you didn't see it at all. then this was the kind of difficult side where the military put -- [inaudible] bought flats in london to the horror of citizens i are and people who lived there -- there was a large worship. that was the sort of, you know, superficial thing designed to deter terrorist. there was a day-to-day security on the 0 olympics site which is what caused a bit of the fuss when the company got the contract to provide the people who were going to search your bags as you came in. suddenly announced a few days before hadn't been able to recruit enough people. so, you know, panic but not panic. the military smoothly moved in immediately and did the job in conjunction with the siflt begans. so i think that the security operation went extremely smoothly.
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the being concerned. i know, any colleagues. and mi5 were not allowed to take any leave. that was what was occupying them. it was successful. we have the power of things to get through. but, you know, i think they have got it taped. >> please describe the personality and characters of characteristickings of people who join intelligence agencies. [laughter] >> that's an interesting one. i think all intelligence agencies are different as i said. i can only comment on the personality and characteristic of people who join the british intelligence services. i think -- i know my group looking for people who are able properly able to be discreet. who don't -- who is self-confident. they don't feel the need to go around blabbing what their going and talking about to everybody
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about the wonderful secret operation they've been involved in. [laughter] and they're also looking for people with two outfit personality. people who are bright, who are able to underline complex information and make sense of it. who are able to use common sense to make judgments about what is likely to be true and what isn't. that is one aspect of the permit. the other aspect is looking for people who are able to go out out on the street and persuade people work for us. like those people within the ira that i was mentioning. to do things you might say no sane person would actually do. they have to have the kind of personality that convince people that this is the right thing to co. and if they work for us, they will be looked after. their information will be dealt with carefully. it's two aspects to a permit. -- permit. and the third bit you need
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people who want to work for the state. who regard this as important. that the state is protected and defended against threats. but who also do not want to live in a police state. you have to have people who obey the law. that we preserve our civil liberty and kept safe. that is two essential sides, it seems to me, of intelligence services and democracy. [applause] >> how did you balance your career and family life? >> with difficulty, again, i would say. when i was working in mi a 5 i had do two daughters. still have. and working in mi5 particularly in the sharp end recruiting and human sources isn't a 9 to 5:00
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job. you can't foresee when you're going to be there an not. that caused difficulty when my daughters were growing up. they were looked after by nancys including grammys can which i can sympathize myself. it's not easy. and it was more difficult in a way because i joined the service that entirely male-dominated and women had to actually fight to be allowed to have a proper career. you know, that took dedication as well. the worse time, really, when i became general and i was made a public figure by the government. they decided the time had come to announce the name of the person who was holding the job and that resulted in a big focus from the media particularly at the time when the ira was active on the streets of london. and at that stage one of my daughter was at university and the other one living with me and trying to do her up.
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public examination. he suffered a lot. this is the mother of my granddaughter here today. she suffered a lot really from both, you know, the media entryings -- intrusion outside the house and the fear the attention might bring the ira creeping up the starves in the back response it was difficult for her. in the end we had to sell the house and move and really live covertly in order to avoid the publicity this the announce had produced. it was difficult. we're still friends. we -- and they, i think, you know, think on the whole it was a good thing. and neither wanted to go into the intelligence service themselves. >> ladies and gentlemen, please thank stella. [applause]
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we're in the count down to the conventions. in three days gavel to gavel coverage of republican national convention. live on c-span. coming up on c-span2 a discussion with lawyers and activists about transgender civil rights in the military physical follow bid a look at u.s. candidate international security security operation. a former head and the british secret service. and every weekend the latest non-fiction authors and books on booktv. you can see past programs and get our schedule at our website and you can join in the conversation on social media sites. >> seven years later, ab hanl lincoln called upon the people of all america to renew their dedication and their commitment to a government of, for, and by
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the people. isn't it once again time to renew our freedom? to flog -- to pledge to each other -- [applause] to pledge to each other all of the best in the lives. all that gives meaning to them for the sake of the our belostled and blessed land. together let us make this a new beginning. let us make a commitment to care for the needy, to teach our children the i have chiewrs handed down to us by our families, to have the courage to defend those values and virtues of the willingness to sacrifice for them. let us pledge to restore in our time the american spirit of voluntary service, of cooperation, of private and community initiative, a spirit that flows like a deep and mighty river through the history of our nation. as your nominee, i pledge to you to restore to the federal
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government the capacity to do the people's work without dominating their lives. ronald reagan 1980 speech is one of the many we'll show you on saturday. it include dwight eisenhower. barry gold water and we'll hear from richard nixon, george w. bush and john mccain watch them this saturday starting at 8:00 p.m. on c-span. the annual conference hosted by the lgbt bar association continues this morning. with the discussion about the rights of transgender people serving in the military. attorneys and transgender veterans will participate. you can tornado watch live here on c-span2 or any time at the c-span video library. c-span >> attorneys and activists talked about the challenges
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transgender service-members confront in the military. they share personal stories and said ending don't ask don't tell was one step forward for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities. this is about an hour and a half. >> thank you for being here bright and i didn't recall thiso morning. we're looking to having a great discussion before we start off, we must take a moment to acknowledge today's breakfast sponsor. i'm sure you've seen the scar in the front. [laughter] it is my true honor no announce the bmw of america is the first of the history much lavender law. [laughter] [applause] the lgbt car is honored to be working with an organization that is an industry leader not only in engineering and design, but may i say beauty. but in social commitment as well. and i am pleased to introduce mr. ken berg who is here to welcome you on behalf of bmw of
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north america. will you come up to the micropho for a moment? [applause] >> thank you. of course, the only question i would ask since i have gotten here is who gets to take it home with them? you the answer is you can all. we are not chips but we can make more. it's a really big pleasure to be with you today. i have to say, darcy, and kelly, you have been kind in working with us as we were arranging our sponsorship earlier this year. we were truly sphriedz find out there had never been an automatic sponsor for lgbt law before. it's special for us to be the first as well, and we are always a bit moved in fact when our sponsorship of whatever event it
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might be has so much meaning for the individuals because we are bmw. we have a big name. we are actually a small company. we have been around for 97 years ago. we operate in 140 countries around the world. we have a nor natural diversity. because of our size, we have also a great deal of emphasis on the individual. so the whole idea of corporate citizenship and responsibility is something that is endemic to company. it's natural for the individuals that are involved. when we have the occasion to be involved in an organization like this, and somebody thanks us, it reminds us of the role that we do have as individuals and when people like nelson mandela stand up and publicly thank us for having helping save his country from economic chaos by investment and hiring and training in south africa, and when organizations like the dow
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jones sustain ability index rate us the most sustain able car company in the world, we really do stop and notice things like that. because for the most part if our normal day by day business we're focused on what we do in our name really tells you everything about the company. bmw is -- literally bra variance engine works. our focus has never changed. our name has never changed. our chairman is a doctor engineering. his boss the chairman of the supervisor vise i are board is the professor and doctor of engineering. which is what we do. we make finally craftily luxury performance automobile. we do at the same time try to be a good corporate citizens and at the heart and soul. our business strategy has also been a very simple phrase it's popular, it's been picked up by other companies now. it has been respect for the individual. and that is really what moves
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and motivates us. thank you, it's our pleasure to be your sponsor. [applause] >> good morning, everybody. good morning. my name is dru levasseur i'm sorry the transgender attorney and i'm excited to be moderating the panel. this panel significant. it's the first forum of the kind. the national lgbt bar association and dart candidates in particular should be commended for putting this front in center. an issue which is often overlooked. [applause] where so for context this is the first time the national lgbt bar has allowed recruiters at the conference in the wake of the repeal of don't ask don't tell. however, a portion of our
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community is still barred from service. transgender people and the term transgender is an umbrella term refers to people who gender identity the inner sense of being male or female differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. transgender people are still barred from service. this panel is called the next frontier. with the repeal of don't ask don't tell, the military took a great step guard. the barf transservice-member is regulatory rather than stage. in the way we can strategize as we move into end the discrimination. the panel line up is an amazing group of heroes. z the civilian moderator i came into the topic from an advocacy perspective. in the work i do for transself right the military issues are at the bottom of the list of priorities when we are fighting
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for every day survival needs and dignities of people. i was reminded by today's panelists that the work we do is as activists would not possible if it were not for the service of the military. i'd like to start off the panel by acknowledging the service-members and veterans in the room. if you can raise your hand or please stand. it's an opportunity for us to acknowledge your service and thank you. [applause] >> including the panel. [applause] as an outtransgender attorney and activist i often people say hue brave i am. you all so brave for being out. as we know, coming out is who we as transpeople risking losing everything. family, friends, a job, housing, you face daily discrimination, harassment, and even violence. the bottom line is that's it's
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hard enough to be an out transperson in the world never mind serving your country. here i have the distinct honor to be in the company of heroes who have gone beyond the call of duty. even though you can read the bios in the program. i want to give highlights to the four people speaking. we have -- [inaudible] she graduated with distinction from the u.s. navel academy. as the qualified service warfare officer she served as sea and shore on active duty as a reservist dering operation desert storm. she became a r.n. certified in emergency nursing and specializing in adult emergency drama care. she graduated from a law school in michigan from staff attorney and currently co-chair of the sldn military advisory counsel in expert on military policy
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related to sexual minority. we have denise. she is currently the senior legislative counsel at family equality counsel. she's immediate past executive director of the quality michigan, the state only statewide lgbt ain't violence organization. denise was the first openly transstudent at the university of michigan school of law where she was a driving force in one of them behind the school addition of gender identity and gender. and as a u.s. navy submarine force veteran on the vietnam era she spent a long time advocate of don't ask don't tell. we have brijt wilson. in san diego, california. with three decades plus of experience representing and assisting service-members in matters related to don't ask don't tell she has two decades of experience in representing transpersons in military and
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civil matters incoming danger military matters. she serves as a consulting counsel to -- [inaudible] a think tank in sexual minorities in the military. she's a veteran of the u.s. army reserve. finally we have everybody knows call person ya adams who did a beautiful rendition. she's an actress, musician, author, and activist. known for the work and for the transsexual community. she's a recipient of the randy shuls video award. and many others. she cofounded the company deep self with andrea james which produces entertainment and educational material. her memoir details her southern childhood and service as field medical combat specialist we the
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navy and reins the saab. she was on act i.t. duty in the u.s. with the u.s. marines as a member of the navy hospital. she's hon rabblely released from active duty. her awards include many. for the rescue of down chinese airliner. these panelists are here this morning to share the expertise on transmilitary issues. their decades of work on the issue as well as their incredible personal stories also push the issue forward in the larger dialogue of the lgbt movement. i'd like to start off with denise giving the review of the
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current status. transpeople have been present in the military even in the revolutionary and sieve wars. can you give us an overview of the service or transmilitary members? >> thanks, my pleasure. thank you everybody for coming out this morning. it's nice to see a full room at 9:00 in the morning. before i get too far afield, i really am going to defer to brejt to plush out some of the bars to transgender service. before i go there, i want to acknowledge one thing. as drew said? the first time we had military recruiters at lavender law, i personally applaud that. and i also personally applaud that we are nearing the one-year repeal anniversary of don't ask don't tell. but please let's not forget that don't ask don't tell ending of
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adopting ask don't tell doesn't suddenly create a nirvana for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters. under so the called deferencive marriage of act, the relationship even when legally married are still not recognize by the military, not recognized by their employer, they don't -- they're dependents are not offered health care insurance, they're not notified, they don't get -- if a service-member or family has been wounded orb worse. and they're not eligible for survivor benefits. so the families of our gay and lesbian and by sexual brothers and sisters in the military have gained the ability for not being fired for who they are. but that's only one step in recognizing the families and the risk they're families are still
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at in the military service. [applause] as far as transgender military service, right now as drew said, we as transgender people are not barred from serving by the law. there is no law passed by congress and signed by the president that says transgender people cannot serve. as there was for gay andless bee began people, under don't ask don't fell. we are barred from service instead by a group of outdated stereo type-based regulations that suggest that we are either physically unfit, or mentally unfit for service to our
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country. and i have a list of the various regulations that actually are in play here. but they are promulgaterded by the department of defense and every military branch has similar regulations that prohibit based on one of these several of these basis, actually, service by openly transgender people. brijt, would you like to add anything to that? >> yeah. the department of defense has series of regulations that bars people for a gender nonconforming and actually intersects people as well. all lumped together in the same regulation. you can be booted out in two ways. one of those is under the other physical and mental conditions which means psych issue for
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being trans. or by having defects of genital ya change of sex, ambiguous genital when you're looking at that when you're looking at regulations what you have are medical regulations, which to some extent may be more difficult to challenge than a statute. the courts will recognize they're entitled to discuss a statute with you. what they will not do very frequently is discuss the regulation especially one that sets off medical qualifications for service. that is the first prong of the exclusion of transpeople. trance people, inner sex. people of almost any kind. the second problem of that is criminal law, and i always tell
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people in the discussion that the military is a place you can go jail for being late for work. and in this context, it's place you can go to jail for wearing the wrong clothes. something that i think most -- when you understand the scope of the military's control over an individual's life. something that has been verified over and over again in the courts, you understand that you can be prosecuted for wearing the wrong clothes. the marine corps. has regulation that says that men cannot wear earrings. not they can't wear an earring when they're uniform. drew would be subject for court martial for wearing the earrings he has now. not because -- it would be an orders violence. the military justice system has so many ways making of your life
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criminal you need to understand the scope of that. unform regulations are orders. it's usually one of the first places we run into that particular problem. so i have a client who has problem not only administrative but also potential criminal liability for being in essence being who they are. because you -- in is no exception. i do not i don't know if any of the rest of you have heard. i have never heard of an individual who received a medical waiver to serve as a transgender person in the u.s. armed force. >> i want to clarify too to context yulize the information. we don't necessarily even have a consensus at this point as for what exactly we want toed a vote callet for in terms of you know what direction do we go if we are advocating for people transitions on active duty, for example which i don't advocate
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for. or are we looking at people being allowed to serve who are experiencing gender -- there are a lot of different, you know, directions to even decide where the advocacy is going to go, but before you can make those decisions, you have to have a lot of this information to know what you're even up against. >> so one of the things we're looking at here is how can i become a criminal because i don't dress right? and there's really only three published cases on what they call cross dressing. and they're slightly older. they're all prelawrence. i have not seen in many years the last of these cases was decided in 1995, a cross dresses case in front of the military criminal courts. and i think that postlawrence it would be a tougher stretch, not a completely out of the question
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issue. it two provisions of military law put you at risk for criminal prosecution for not are dressing right. all right. one of those is article 133 most of you have heard at least on television. conduct on becoming an officer and gentleman. the other is 134 which we call the general article. it criminal loses all disorder and neglect and crimes not capital to the detriment of good order and discipline. or that will bring disrepute around the military as an institution. the detriment to good order and dismoney which i tend refer to as g. o. d. which has been used to prosecute people. to keep the level of regarding the thing called cross dressings. in the 18988, the only one three cases involved herself to the
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court as a transperson. karen went court and said no, we don't recognize this. you had been transvestite. she was ab in a therapy group and went on base. what the court said that when you're determining detriment, by the way, i think karen's case would be thrown out on how --s to leer cases as we call them. but it comes down to is this detrimental to military service and they said any idiot should know that dressing in women's clothing when you're a man is criminally deficient. okay. it's a crime because we, like pornography. we know it when you see it. you should have known it would be detrimental to good order and discipline. we know that because she admitted she had coworkers who would refuse to work with her
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because they found out that she was dressing in women's clothing. and she appeared on base, unfortunately a couple of times. the military connection. and it started, it took us to the second case, and last two cases both involved individuals who were not transidentified per se were but -- for, you know, simply wearing clothes that the military didn't like. the unfortunate chief petty officer had a gas in which there was a vigorous dissent and subtle change took place. when you're dealing with military law, i guess any law, the subtle changes matter a great deal. what gur row row told us it's not criminal. now that's a big support change by 1991. cross stressing per se but when you have unusual behavior, right, that's how they describe
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it, it may not be criminal and they parallelled it to first amendment law. unless we can consider it a problem because of time, place, manner and purpose. and that is how the military decided to criminalize cross dresses. four years later, colonel who had the life that was trashed found himself in the same place. where, you know, the issue of private came up. this is all prelawrence, remember. and in his case, at the end of the day, you have to understand the man now has colonel got a felony conviction out of this. officers general to a general court marshall this to be broad is the functional -- the privacy was doing it alone. so the court did open the door
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to the idea you can actually might not be able to prosecuted to dressed in women's clothes totally alone and privately in your own house and no one saw you. okay. so that's kind of the status. i have not seen a criminal prosecution for cross dresses in a long time. most of these cases in the past and now have been dealt with administratively. it's only been within the last decade that the service has actually developed specific e regulations to address what they call transsexual. and so the prohibitions are multilayered. out there somewhere are potential criminal sanctions still. the other potential criminal sanction is under the sexual assault provision of the ucmj article 120, i would have a concern that someone would accuse my clientd of coming on to them and they didn't really consent to having someone that they thought of as the same-sex
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come on to them and therefore lack of consent renders as a sex crime. it's still out there over a potential problem which i why i tell you transclients you must be out. so, you know, i come at this from two ways. can i get my transclient sentence in people come to my in a different way. my job is to keep them safe. i don't want them getting killed or beaten, right. my second thing is to make sure they're not getting into trouble. they're not in jail, they're not a psych hospital and not having actions taken to the detriment of their military record and benefits. how do i get you out of here and protect you. it's a different perspective than walking into civil rights.
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except to the extent that i do have the chance to educate command as i go. and i think paula and i were talking this morning about the fact you have to understand about the institution. it's a one-note song. in almost any command you go to, somewhere in the operations division you're going see a sign up that says mission first. and anything that distracts from mission is bad in the eyes of the military. so, you know, you really want to make sure that what you're doing is making it clear who is in front of that. times get better at this stage of the game, it's almost possible to have commanding officers who have compassion for your client. okay. which is better than the hostile one get in the past. i think the air force and the navy may have been the first services to use the term
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transsexual in the physical mental disorders danger provisions. but definitely a problem if you're transwhere you're in. if you're trans when you're in, you face another difficulty. how do i transition when i'm in the military? actual to reality for the most part, you can't. i've talked to several ftm individuals over time especially reservist who have been able to transition while they're in. no one looks at them many. they're two weeks there a year. they can shave. and as i was explaining at lunch. you have hair this short and they put you in what the navy call you you utilities or call acu the fatigue uniform concept. you're looking butch anyway. so [laughter] so those folks have the ftm have a little easier time be passing
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during the course of service. at some point your flat top will get you in to trouble. but the other problem is that you are -- things like getting medical treatment from nonmillion providers. the service have regulations to say you can't get treatment from nonmilitary medical providers unless you have given you permission to do so. that means my trans client technically unless they want to face an order sleighs -- under the penalty of what we call article 92 orders violation. if you don't do what the boss tells you, that's an order. that's a crime. okay. so it's a crime to get unauthorized medical treatment. the good news for transclients who are in the process of discovery, and the process of
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beginning the process of transition is that two things have happened to make life easier. one the military now has the psycho therapist patient privilege. doesn't have patient physician privilege. secondly, more often than not, the military medical establishment believes that hipaa applies to them. so actual it's a little easier to hide. but before anyone would want to start mething around with that i would i want to talk to them first about how to forward that strife. how to not put yourself as risk anymore than e necessary. civil let gracious. few cases no real results. kinder. you're stuck fighting military
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deference.. to tell their personal stories that explain. now thri


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