tv Book Discussion on Shot All to Hell CSPAN November 3, 2013 3:00pm-4:11pm EST
washington." kittykelleywriter.com is the web site. this is booktv on c-span2. thank you for being with us the last three hours. >> guest: thank you. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979, brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> mark lee gardener recalls the life of outlaw jesse james next on booktv. mr. gardener recounts the infamous james-younger-gains robbery of the first national bank of northfield, minnesota, on september 7, 1876, and the two week manhunt that followed. this is an hour and ten minutes.
>> y'all didn't know you were going to get a show tonight, but it is friday night, so got to have some kind of a show. you know, i've found that the best time machine is music. books are a close second, and i really try to transport the reader back in time with my books, but music gets you there instantly, you know? you hear a bob dylan song, you're back in the '60s, you hear a stephen foster song, you're back in the 19th century. so let's go back in time to 19th century missouri when even during the worst of times in a civil war and later the notorious james-younger game, people had great songs and great music that they sang. ..
custer and american 200 men under his command are wiped out by lakota and cheyenne warriors. that summer, a former lawman with long flowing locks was shot in the head in deadwood, south dakota. wild bill hick come. there were swarms of locusts that covered the skies in the mid-west, and they devoured the wheat in iowa, and missouri, and the damage amounted to over $8 million by 1876. the panic of 1873 was still being felt in 1876. cost all kinds of jobs. dropped the prices of crops. many businesses failed. and the grant administration was racked with scandal so they weren't much help, either. many corrupt officials were part
of the administration and congressional hearings going after various parties. there was one thing that was very exciting in the summer of 1876, and it was occurring in philadelphia. the famed centennial exposition. tens of thousands of people visited the exposition every day, and they saw all kinds of marvels and wonders, inventions, sewing machines, typewrite es, the telephone, the good good at- the good atling gun, all kind of wonders going on. there were so many people going to the exposition that there were special trains that left from all points from the west, the midwest, and you get a special ticket to take you to philadelphia.
tens of thousands of people each day went through the gates and thousands going east on the railroad to visit that thing. in minnesota, a bank cashier has gone with his family to philadelphia to see the fair, and the other employees had to fill in while he was gone for a couple of weeks in september. but while all these people were going east to the fair, in missouri, there were eight men that boarded a train in st. joseph, missouri, and they were going north and weren't going to any fair. they were going have a little fun in the place of minnesota to spend a couple of weeks up there they were the notorious james younger gang. they had about their person threes to forever -- four resolvers each, and ammunition belts, and road with dusters on over their clothing.
historically, a duster is meant to protect your nice clothes from the dirt of the road. there's not any paved roads in 1876. you can get pretty dusty. so the dusters were meant to protect clothing and also concealed weapons handily. now, why minnesota? the most successful outlaw band in american history, why go north? welly, july of 18 6 they had a successful haul in missouri near the small town of honorville. they had gotten $15,000 but their first big mistake came out of that robbery. and that was a new recruit. they recruited someone who wasn't really quite as trustworthy and wasn't quite as loyal, and seasoned as the rest of the gang. his name was hobbs carrie. his share of the loot was
$1,200 out of the 15,000 haul. but he was pretty obvious about spending his money, and after a very short time he was down to all about $20, he lost it in the gambling halls in joplin and elsewhere, and the st. louis police were on to him and they captured him and interrogated him, and he confessed everything. not only did he confess his role in the robbery but he named all the other gang members part of the gang. he also told about where they liked to hide out. he learned quite a bit in his short time with the gang. so made it fairly hot in missouri for the jamess ands could the youngers because the detectives were on their trail. so when it was hot, they went someplace where they were least expected. minnesota was that kind of place. no one in minnesota would expect this gang to go there some they were not being hunted there. but there is also another reason to go to shouldn't that is revenge. -- to go minnesota and that is
revenge. jesse james if anything is all about respring started with the civil war and always retaliation, getting back at the federalists for what they perceived had done, and someone attempted to harm jesse or his family, he was out to get them. and there was man from liberty, missouri, an attorney named samuel hardwick, and he made the mistake of assisting allen pinker ton's efforts to capture the james brothers, and hardwick set up a midnight raid in january of 1875. in the raid the pinkertons surround the house, the broke a window and toss nulled what is known now as an incendiary device. the idea was to start a fire of some kind to illuminates the interior and set the house on fire.
but it exploded. didn't just set a family. the james family called it a grenade, the dent was to blow up the house. jesse and frank were not in the house as samuel hardwick believed, but the family was there, and jesse's mother was maimed for life, they had to amputate her arm right near the elbow, and even worse, jesse's half bauer, archie samuel, young boy, was killed. fatally wounded by this exploding device. once jesse learned that samuel hardwick had a role -- it wasn't hard to learn this because the news got out to the newspapers. the pinkertons cooperate keep a lid on it. it was quickly known that samuel hardwick played a role in the raid. the federal thing hardwick did was move from his farm for protection. he went about armed when he was going about his business. of a few months the pressure was too much and samuel hardwicked to flee the state, and the place
he fled to was st. paul, minnesota, and it was nope he went there because he wrote letters back to the liberty paper, and jesse, if anything, was a big reader of the newspapers and quickly learned where samuel hardwick was. so to go to minnesota to hide out and the other to give jesse chance to have his revenge on samuel hardwick. so the eight men arrive in minnesota by train. they good to the twin cities and spend a couple weeks in st. paul insuring minneapolis. they have lots of money on them from the rocky robbery, so they go to the brothels and gambling halls, and in 1876 they're wide-open towns. brothels and gambling halls, and even though they were trying to keep their identities secret, the felt pretty relaxed and pretty safe in minnesota, and they did draw lots of attention to themselves by the way they talked.
they had a missouri drawl or dialect, which stood out in minnesota. the way they dressed. again, they had these dusteres, wore broad brim hats. tall boots and big spurs, and that was not something you normally saw in places like st. paul minneapolis. they also committed several social faux pass. wore that are hats in the dining room in the hotel and actually drew a lot of attention to themselves but the people, although they were curious and questioned them about where they were from and who way were, they believed all the lies they told. they said, well, we're railroad surveyors, we're land speculators, we're cattlemen, and once they gave those explanations, those alibis, those characterizations, the people believed them and did not question them anymore. well, as you can imagine, just like carrie, they quickly went
through their funs. spending their money free, and they started thinking about the next job, the next bank haul. and they started scouting in southern missouri. in red wing, st. peter, man cato, northfield, and looked how the town was set up. they bought minnesota maps while they were up there to figure out an escape route opposite they picked a particular location, the first place decided possible was mancato. they ride into town but there's a long crowd on the street that day, and not only a large crowd on the street in front of the bank, but they're pointing at the outlaws, pointing at them. and they're worried. they think they've been discovered. in fact earlier that day there was a man who recognized jesse
james. he claimed to have been from clay county, missouri and newell the jamesss' said, hello, jess certification how are you doing? and jesse tried toying nor him and rode away but a man went into the bank and said, you better watch out because i just saw jesse james. they laughed at him. later they believed him but not then. so all these people pointed at them. they had an encounter with someone who thought he knew jesse james so they rode out and did not commit in the robbery in mancato. the reason all these people were pointing at them, they're pointing at the really nice horses they were riding. because they had spent a lot of their money on horse flexor $200 and and more apiece for these saddle mounts and it was unusual in minnesota to see someone riding a saddle horse. generally when you traveled in minnesota, you went in a buggy or you hooked up the farm nag to a wagon and drove it into town you didn't see people riding
horses, especially groups of five or six or what have you. so these people not only see these beautiful horses but also was unusual. look at those guys. and enthe these dusters they wore were almost identical, all linen dusters and made them look like they were wearing uniforms to some extent. so win more than two or three were together, it was unusual and drew people's attention. so they probably could have robbed the bank 'in man condition cato but didn't. the second choice was north fieldfield, minnesota. it was appealing for a couple of reasons. one is, it was a town of 2,000 people, college town, carlton college, few years old at that time. but northfield only had one bank. mancato had three. so the logic of the outlaws, all the money must be in this one bank. what was very appealing to people like jesse james, true southern partisan and had very
strong southern political beliefs, one of the investors of the northfield bank, the first national bank, was a man named delbert ames. the first commander of the 20th main during the civil war, later his successor was joshua lawrence chamber loin, now famous for his fight on little round top. but ames had become a prominent genésive war. after the war he was governor of mississippi, a carpet bag governor how they referred to them town south. he had a very turbulent administration, in in fact once the democrats grained control of the mississippi legislature they threatened impeachment, and so he resigned and went to northfield because his family operated a milling business, and there's a mill square, and the mill on mill square was jesse ames and sons and they operated that mill. today molt o'meal.
so this is very appealing. let's hit a bank with lots of money any money of a carpet bagger, and jesse liked the idea of riding out of towns with thousands of dollars that belongs to this carpet bagger who fought for the north in the civil war. the date for the robbery, september 7, 1876. the gang rides into towns in twos and threes, from different directions. about 10:00 in the morning. some of the gang members actually go into the first national bank, it's right on division street. and this was a very common procedure when they robbed a bank. they would go in and ask to have a bill changed. can you change this $10 bill. this gives them an opportunity to see where the cash draws, where the safe is, how many employees are working. so they go into the bank and then these individuals leave. some go and have a meal at a local restaurant. some of the gang were seen in the saloons in town having a few drinks. and then later, about 2:00, the
men start converging on the federal national bank. three men were 0 toe go into the bank and conduct the robbery two on the street, and three would hang back in mill square to protect their escape route. the three men that enter the bank are frank james, bob younger and charlie pitt. the men on the outside in the streets are miller and younger and then jesse, jim younger, and bill chadworth were sitting on their horses in mill square. almost immediately people are suspicious in other towns people were curious, in northfield there was this for boding when they saw these men. actually individuals who thought, this doesn't look like they saw the long dusts, the saddle horses, and there was one name named j. r. allen who followed the three men, frank, bob, and charlie, as they went to the bank and went inside. j.r. allen tries to get into the bank but miller had gotten off
his horse and was going to close the door and he meets allen face-to-face and grabs him and says, don't you holler, and of course allen struggles, breaks free and runs down the street and he hollers and says, get your guns, boys, they're robbing the bank. it's heard all down the street. there's a young gentleman sitting in a chair across division street, young medical student. he is having a break from college. and he sees what is happening, and he immediately stands up and yells, robbery, robbery! they're robbing the bank! so the alarm has gone off within seconds the gang is trying to rob the bank. as soon as allen rounds the corner, round the block, he is yelling, the bank is being robbed there are men on the street. they hear him. almost immediately people start going for their guns. these citizens are not going to allow their bank to be robbed. they're not going to allow these guys to take their money. at this time there's no federal
deposit insurance, so if the money is stolen, it's gone. they're robbing each person individually. so, there's an incentive for them to resist the robbers. and they don't know who they are aft this time. only know that someone is robbing the bank. now, where do they get their gun thursday? in minnesota people don't walk around with a six-shooter on their hip. nobody is walking around with a gun, but certain places people know where the guns are and when you buy amucks at the hardware store. just around the corner from the bank are two hardware stores, and one store, as soon as they hear the alarm and shouting, one employee starts taking guns out of the cases and laying them on the constanter with ammunition. so their grabbing shotguns and revolvers. one hardware store owner had a rifle in the window in the front of the store. he grabbed his rifle, races to the corner and they start blast away at the men in the street. at this time the three men in mill square have rid can around
the corner to support the guys in the bank. so five men in the street riding back and forth shouting at towns people to get back inside and firing their guns over their head to scare them, to get them away so they can buy time for the men inside. now, you can imagine the confusion for people in northfield. everyday citizens, maybe share shopping or in the store and they see these riders going back and forth, and it does not enter their minds that something bad or horrible is happening. its just defies any kind of logic that something like this would happen in northfield. there has to be some other explanation to what is going on. now, turns out that night there was supposed to be a big show by this illusionist named professor longar, and he going to have a show, and he would have a balloon ascension that would rise up and get people to come inside and pay for the show. and so some of the first thoughts are, oh, this is to advertise the show.
this is not any kind of a robbery. or a shootout. this is a great way of advertising the show. there's a den test who -- dentist on the second floor not far from the bank, and he steps on the landing and as he steps out, the robbers are yelling get back in, and they're firing towards him and stuff is popping off the building, and the jumps back' in and asked the lady and says, what's going on? oh, that's probably a wild west show. so he goes back out and gets shot at again. took a couple of times. so beyond imagination this would happen in this little town of 2,000 people, where these horrible things don't happen in northfield. so, this is going on constantly. initially the outlaws are not shooting to kill. but the towns people are shooting to kill. they're actually trying to kill these men they determined are the robbers, the bad guys, and manning with his rifle, he takes
the bead on the robbers who are ducking behind their horses, and since you can't get one of the robbers, he kills one of the horses and it collapses in front of the bank. then his gun jams and he has to run back and get another round in. henry wheeler, the medical student, he remembered there was an old civil war carbine in the hotel or store or two downs. so he goes in and grabs, goes upstairs and has a perfect view down below to where the riders are going back and forth and he zeros in on clay miller, adjusting something on his saddle and he fires and sends a bullet through his artery, and miller bleeds to death on the steps. so, one man is already killed. and manning, a little later, draws a bead on one of the other riders, bill chadwell, and he
shoots him dead. the seconds are ticking by and the reason why is because of a heroic employee in the bank. you remember i said the cashier went to philadelphia for the exposition in the man that took his place was the treasurer, wasn't the cashier, but that day he was the acting cashier, joseph lee heywood. the three men burst in, bunker, the teller, meets them at the window and they have three revolvers pointed at his head. at first he thinks friends are playing a joke on him. never heard of a bank robbery before? quickly he realizes these men are up to no good and very surous, and they keep yelling, who is the cashier? where is the cashier. >> host: bunker is silent. frank wilcox, another employee is silent. joy receive heywood is at the desk and says calmly, he is not in today. and he wasn't. but they all jump over the counter and keep pointing the resolvers. who is the cashier, finally they
see the cashier's desk and frank james says, you're the cashiering open the safe. and he resies. often the -- resists. often people in charge of money to protect it, whether a cashier oar express agent, they would try to deceive robbers and outlaws. so heywood says it's on a time lock. you heard the story of the time lock in time locks were just coming into vogue at this time. a time lock was designed to be engaged at the end of the business day and then to be disengaged at the beginning of the business day. so no bank in its right mind would have a time lock engaged during business hours because nobody could get into the safe to conduct transactions. the gang now this. the whole reason for the time lock was to prevent outlaws to kidnap the banker in the middle of the night and force him to open the safe. there's a time lock on there. doesn't matter if you're the owner or the cashier, you can't open the safe until the clock
strikes the right time. but the outlaws new this was a lie to buy time, and says, that's a lie, open the safe. and frank james actually starts to go into the vault, and haywood tries to slam the vault on him and there's a scuffle. so all this commotion and resistance is making it very deadly for the men in the street. that's why they lose two men and the other men are getting wounded with shotgun pellets. all things that are happening out there as haywood bought time inside the bank. what the gang didn't know, what frank james didn't know, had he gone bo this vault and tried the handle sheriff was -- handle the safe, it was open. there was $15,000 in that safe. instead they're rummaging around looking for the cash drawer. bob younger ends up scooping up some spare change and script, some paper money, and it's about $26 and 40 cents is all he
gathers. they never get into the vault. never get into the safe. while they're struggling with haywood, bunker, the teller, papishings because he seize frank james draw his revolver and point it towards heywood, and then fires over haywood's head. bunker doesn't know this, but is it the scare haywood into opening the safe. bunker things they just murdered haywood, and bunker bolts and runs to the back door. charlie pits runs after and fires a shot hitting the blindses next to the door, and bunker burst out the back, pit pitts follows him and shoots again, the bullet goes through bunker's shoulder but the gets away. this is the confusion the robbers are dealing with. things are going wrong. anything that could go wrong did go wrong as they're trying to rob the bank. charlie runs a big knife long haywood's throat and makes a flesh wound.
haywood is not cooperating and is knocked senseless. yells murder, murder, and frank james hits him with his resolver, and at this point, coal younger keeps riding up to the door of the bank and say, come out, they're shooting our men. get out. he rides up three different times, and finally been younger and charlie pitts burst out the front door and look for the horses. of course bob youngers are horse is dead. frank james is the last one to leave and out of pure meanness and pure spite and vengeance, he levels his resolver at haywood and murders him. frank wilcox witnesses this murder and then he flees through the back door himself. frank james rushes out. they're all scrambling for horses. bob younger races down the sidewalk because people are shooting from threatened corner, and cole younger said, kill that man at the corner, and they're dodging back and fortharound
their stairwell, and finally bob younger starts shooting through the stairway and trying to get manning who backs off. bob younger at the corner, one more shot from the hotel, from henry wheeler, the medical student, it shatters bob younger's elbow, his gun hand. he coolly tosses the gun to his left handand keeps blasting away but as the men are riding off, he says, my god, boys, don't leave me, i'm wounded, and they pull him on the hours and they gallop out of town. it takes seven meants -- seven minutes for this to happen. and it was melee in the street. joseph lee haywood is the hero because he prevented these funds from being taken from the bank. to give you toot motivation for
haywood to resist, he was also the treasurer at karlton college and knew all the money from the college was in safe. had that money been taken the college could have been ruined. so he had lots of incentives to resist. there were other heros in addition to haywood, some individuals who couldn't find guns and so they threw rocks. so they were dodging bullets and missiles coming through the air and disresulting, extracting them. another hero is a man named george bates, who is a druggist. the first thing he finds is is a shot gun. he is across the street. but can't get the shotgun to work so he tosses the shotgun aside and gets ahold of a new revolver but there's no ammunition, so he stepped into a doorway and everytime an outlaw comes close he jumps out and says, now i've got you, and this whoa distract the robber and he would blaze away at george bait
bates would duck back in and wait for next robber and jump out and say, i've got you, and that was his way of disrupting the robbery. so these men ride out of up to. they're short a horse, what comes after is a two-week manhunt, very detailed in my book. the largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time. also wall the largest gathering of inept manhunters up to that time in fairness these people were shop keepers, farmers, a few professionals. but the james-younger gang, if they were experts as anything, it was getting away. they were experts at escaping and eluding possess -- posses and the posses helped them in a few different ways. one thing that was so disappointing to read about when i was researching this, there were two professional police
forces in minneapolis and st. paul, and they were immediately telegraphed, send men, send guns. we have had two men killed. not only was haywood murdered but also a local citizen, a swedish immigrant had been wounded and they needed help from the professionals. well, st. paul and minneapolis have always been highly competitive in sports, business, and it turns out very competetive when it came to chasing outlaws. they were jealous. they did not want one force to get all the glory so they refused to work together. had they worked together there's a good chance the manhunt would end sooner but they would not. and they were good spinning their lies riding to the big woods of minnesota to the west and southwest of northfield. whenever they encountered a farmer or someone on the road they would say we're looking for horse thieves. we're the posse after the
outlaws. and people accepted it. people were very innocent at that time. and they saw a bunch of guys with guns, oh, yeah, if you need a horse or -- can we borrow a sad until oh, yeah, here, go get this outlaws. so they were very good at fooling people as they were escaping through the minnesota woods. the other thing that assisted them, was also a detriment in their escape, was the big woods itself. the big woods doesn't exist today in minnesota, but at that thyme was 100 miles long, 40 to 0 miles wide, very, very thick, all kinds of hardwood, underbrush not really good roads through it. no good maps, and the posses often got lost, especially the ones that weren't from around there they had pousses from all over the set. built in outlaws were getting lost as well and often they had to take captive guides to help get them flee and elude the men chasing them. near mancato, what led to the downfall of a portion of the gang is when they captured a man
named thomas jefferson dunning. they wanted him to guide them around. the river was complicated and it was the edge of the big woods. thomas jefferson dung wasn't the best guide and the told stories which confused the outlaws. some were pretty obvious lies. he said he had heart problems and they knew that was probably not true. he said he was recent so he didn't know the terrain. he said his family would be looking for him because they were expecting him back. the gang has a meeting and decide we can't use this guy. hi he is no help. what do we do with them? apparently frank and jesse wanted to kell thomas jefferson dunning. the younger brothers did not. but the younger brothers prevail, and they make thomas jefferson dunning promise not to say anything. they said if you don't say anything, give us your address and we'll send you a nice gift once we get back to missouri. but if you do give us up, it
doesn't matter if it's six months from now or ten years or 20 years, we will come after you. thomas jefferson dunning is let go. he goes right to his house and he doesn't report them immediately. he is really stressed about what should i do? he eventually decided to tell his boss and hope these outlaws are captured. the boss rides straight into mancato. by this team the man hospital iers had given up. the police forces from miami and st. paul were heading back home. they thought the outlaws escaped. this put new life into the maphunt and all of a sudden the minneapolis and st. paul detectives turn around and they head toward mancato and get on the trail of the outlaws, and almost capture them just outside of mancato as a place called pigeon hill, but it was the jealousies that allowed the outlaws to escape. instead of waiting for the rest of the posses, one of the police forces decided to barge ahead
and grab the glory, and they made such a react, the outlaws realized they had somebody close on their tail and the left their camp fire. there was still food on the fire and some said they saw the brush still moving from the outlaws that just fled. so this rush to get glory defeated the evidents to capture the gang. after the gang got away they had a heat it argument and jesse and frank told the younger brothers and charliepit charlie pitts, we should have killed doning. and the others had such horrible wounds it was slowing them down. one had a shat shattered elbow, and jesse suggested they leave him behind and the younger brothers would not agree and they decide to split up. and as evidenced how much they were holding everybody back.
jesse and frank steal horses and escape all the pousses -- all the posses ride and the younger riders make it -- there's not hero in the story. named as score sore -- oscar sorville, a teenager, and he is milking the family cow, and and his fatherrer is milking another cow. it was so muddy and wet they actually led the cows out to the road where there was more solid ground, and i should mention after the robbery was committed there were two weeks of the postal downpours any minnesota resident had seen before. it would a beautiful day on the day of robbery but the next day it started raining and the outlaws were trudging through swamps and younger said i believe there were 7,000 lakes in country and in between each lake was a marsh. it was miserable for the
outlaws. so oscar and his dad are milking cows in the road. two strangers come walking down and one been says good day, and the father says good day, and as soon as they walk by, oscar, who is well aware of the man hospital i, said, dad, that's the outlaws, and the father says those were nice men. keep milking. no. no. those were -- so oscar finishes milk -- fills his pail up. sets it aside and starts following them. and his dad says you be careful. actually, as ocean scar is in the road he yells back to his dad, see how nice these men are? look at these tracks. and in the tracks were toe prints because the soles of their boots had worn off and they had tow prints in the mud. so oscar knew these guys were the outlaws. hoe followed them at a distance and saw where the tracks went into a patch of woods. and then he goes racing back and says i want to tell the
neighbors what is going on, and his father again is really hesitant and reluctant. no, these are the outlaws you're going to get hurt. so, oscar gets his sister to run to the neighbor's and alert them and he starts begging his father for a horse. guy -- i got to ride into town and alert the sheriff. and the father is, no, we have work to do. but oscar won't take no for on expanse finally his father agrees him to take the farm and it's a big old overweight house, and oscar galloping into town, and the horse is exhausted and collapses, and i they go tumbling. oscar is covered with mud but gets into the town and makes it to where the sheriff is, and he says, i've spotted the robbers, some of course everybody thinks he is crazy but he tells the sheriff something that makes him
believe him. he says one of men we saw had his arm in a sling, and the sheriff says those are our men. so they take off. shops are closed and they go racing to capture the outlaws. they're a horrific shootout, charlie pitts is killed. cole younger would said he had 1 11 wounds and more from these episodes. when the brothers are captured, jim younger and cole were so shot up that the doctors that treat them think they're going to die. these are mortal wounds. jim younger took a bull that went through the roof of his mouth and there's pictures and you sneak wound. cole younger's eye was swollen up. one of the most amazing things after the men are taken --
captured, and this was the biggest story in minnesota ever about the outlaw hunt. well, huge crowds come to the town to see the outlaws, and there is a shift. people are sympathetic to the outlaws. they have killed two men in northfield but these outlaws are famous, and they seem to be nice boys. they're christians, and there's one big crying jag after another as the people go through and they're talking about their childhood, and their troubles in the war and quoting the bible, cole younger said he quotes byron and people are -- they're -- bob younger, 22 years old, handsome, they bring him bouquets of flowers, and every town that these outlaws go through on their way to the jail, they're base basically celebrated. people want to shake their hands. this cult of celebrity. it's very, very incredible. even the minnesota newspapers
said that, these men had it not been such a horrible thing they were doing, this is one of the most amazing feats they could last this long, and two of them, frank, and jesse, escape back to missouri. just to finish up the stories -- again, i really detail the manhunt in the book. cole younger, jim younger, and bob younger, they're charged with murder for the death of joseph lee haywood, even though none of them shot and killed him. it was frank james. they're charged with murder and likely to be convicted bay jury. but there's a peculiar law in minnesota on the books that allows them to escape the hangman and that law says that only a jury could administer the death penalty. only a jury can do that. so if you plead guilty to murder, you don't have a jury, you have a judge that decides your sentence. the judge can't give the death sentence. he can only give life imprisonment. so all three men plead guilty before a judge. there's no jury called, and they get life in prison.
they spend over 24 years in prison. bob younger doesn't make it out of prison. he died from tuberculosis. cole younger felt that bob had received a wound through the lung and thought that made him susceptible. but he died in prison in the early 1900's, jim and cole are paroled. they're not allowed to leave minnesota. and you can kind of imagine guys that have never had real jobs before. it was hard finding work. after -- these are middle-aged men now. so they find jobs for them. the first job they get, they're traveling sales men selling tombstones. jim younger got a afternoon in a shop but he felt like a freak, people want to see them. jim younger suffered from depression. he wanted to marry a woman while he was in prison but he had to get permission from the governor, and that permission
was denied, and jim younger commits south dakota -- commits suicide, and jim younger is pardoned, and he told he cannot come back and cannot exhibit him for profit, and he returns to missouri and lives to a ripe old page and dies in 1916 at the aim of 72. a beloved figure. frank and jesse, most of you know the story. jesse is assassinated by his own gang memberes. northfield is a direct line to that anation because once the james-younger gang is broken up, jesse doesn't have the same men. these aren't guys that will stand out in the street and take bullets while waiting on you. these men have not fought alongside you in the civil bar and were not trustworth,y, and they assays nat jesse. frank james sees the writing on the wall. jesse was very paranoid and spurns, and frank thinks if they
can get to jesse, they can get to me, and he surrenders. part of the deal for his surrender he will never be sent to minnesota, and the deal is honored. when minnesota send as wreck we signifies for frank james it's denied and sent back with the excuse that frank has several charges to meet here in missouri first. but frank is never sent to minnesota and never goes there as well. frank lives to a ripe old aim as well. dies in 1915. but once cole gets out of prison -- frank and cole had always been friends and had fought together during the war and that friend shown was maintained especially since cole younger and the others would never reveal who the two men with them that i never said it was frank and jesse james. had they said that it would be a rope to get frank and have him tried in minnesota but they never gave the two men up. so right after cole gets out he goes into partnership with frank
james on a wild west show. called the cole younger and frank james wild west show. i said he couldn't profit by exhibiting himself but he gets around it by lehning his name to the show and getting a personal of the profits but does not appear as the show. frank jisms would -- james would appear. there was falling out with their other partners but they remained partners until the end of their days. i guess the thing that struck me the most about this story was two things. the towns people that actually took up arms and fought this back of outlaws -- this gang of outlaws, and defended their town. and it struck me how two mean escaped third largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time. it was incredible. it still remains incredible, and we really still don't know exactly how frank and jesse made their final leg to missouri.
but the northfield raid, one of the seminole events of the gang. was born and raised here and i wanted to revisit that legend i grew up with. when i grew up, jesse was hero but i wanted to revisit the real jesse, and i thought this particular episode had not been covered as well as -- and as dramatically as it could be. so i want to end with one song and then we'll take a few questions. this song i'm going to perform is a historic ballad called, coal younger, talks about the northfield raid and also on my new c.d., called pow outlaws: songs of outlaws, russ -- rustlers rogues. i usual live do this on the banjo but i brought this 1952 gibson tenor guitar so i want to play it. thank you all very much. ♪ >> love to talk about the old
[applause] >> thank you. >> we have the cameras in the back, and c-span is here filming for booktv so if you have a question, if you can come up to the microphone to ask it. any questions? >> i guess i was just going to -- after they captured the youngers and the two james boys escaped, when was the next sighting of them? was it months later in missouri? how long did it take them to get from when they left minnesota, back down missouri? >> the james boys were in missouri by early october, and they really were never sighted.
the detectives felt like they had a lead, and they had discovered -- they had spies in jackson county, and in clay county, and in fact there was one man that they tracked to a doctor's home, near independence, and this man had a nasty wound above his knee, and that was the same place that frank was supposed to have been wounded. the st. louis employing chief sent a detective to independence to sneak around, is this our man? the detective telegraphed back, yes ex-this is frank james. they sent more men to help-surrounded the house, captured the man, drug him out of the house, took him straight st. louis, let the st. louis newspapers know they captured frank james. it wasn't frank james. his name was john gooden and he was the wrong height, the wrong hair color. the st. louis police chief did not want to give up on this man. he said he may not be frank james but i know he rode with
jesse from minnesota. he is one of the robbers. well, he wasn't. he received the wound in a squirrel hunting accident. the doctor signed an affidavit saying he was being treated at his house. so he was essentially kidnapped and ended up suing the police chief for $20,000. >> so maybe a month or so when you think they left minnesota to when -- >> they, the 0 robbery is september 7th and after four weeks weeks they were back in, if not sooner, in missouri, and then they went to tennessee. >> did you ever do any research into the man who claimed to be jesse james when he was at the caverns about 30 years ago? >> his name was dalton. >> right, jay frank dalton. >> he was not jesse.
>> did you do any research on that? >> i really didn't. there's lots of stories of various outlaws who supposedly weren't killed. butch cassidy was not killed. billy the kid was not killed. john wilkes booth was not killed. the thing about jesse james, the most solid evidence is that -- he suffered two wounds in the civil war to his lungs and those scars are visible in the photographs. friends and family identified him as jesse james. so, the newspaper -- i mean, there's no question that jesse was killed. but there was more than just this dalton. there will several impostors that claimed to be jesse over the year, and there were lawsuits by the james family against certain individuals who claimed to be jesse james. and these cases led to the dna examination several years ago, i
guess in. the 1990s, where they exhumed jesse's body and did a dna test and the family wanted to end this once and for all, but it didn't. it's never going to end it. no matter how much evidence, people aren't going to believe it. >> also, i'm sure you visited northfield, minnesota, and the little museum they have there at the bank. >> yes. >> i was there a year ago, and it is really quite interesting. >> it's spectacular. it's been restored to 1876, the way it appeared at the time of the robberies. there's furnish, that are actually there at the time. and then every september -- i was just there a couple weeks ago -- they reenact in the raid in seven minutes time. it's called the defeat of jesse james days, and several times a day in front of thousands of people, they re-enact this and have bleachers on the other side of the street. there's no cars. and i will say this as a historian a really relish the opportunity to see people or
hostback, even just as a sense of scale. you don't always get that when you're researching subjects. i was in front of the actual bank, seeing men on horseback, going through the moms, and i felt like that helicopter me -- helped me in my description of the robbery in my book to preempt its as accurately and exciting and terrifying as it was at that time. >> hi. i'm just curious about some of your background and training as a historian. >> oh, you want to know. bit? born and raised in missouri. my family took vacations every summer and we went to every fourth battle field and historic house there was...
or type of instrument, i would make note of that as well. i feel, as i said earlier, the dusek is a great time machine. i really try to mimic that with my writing and make my books a ballot of sort and take you back to that time in the u.s. tory. >> i am also from missouri. i've been down highway 44 encina jesse james hideout and all that kind of stuff. so i am aware of it being kind of the sub liberty. i was taken aback he said he was
the hero. as a cue to explain because i'm not sure exactly how you've been. and then movies. which one do you think most accurately portrays the northfield raid? >> okay, sure. he's not a hero to me now. he was a childhood hero. i think obviously, the qualities that made him for that i saw as heroic was the miss. i mean, he grew to become a robin hood. we put attributes on him that he did not really have. he never gave to the poor. he gave to himself. but shortly after he was killed, the song was created by robert ford is the coward. he shot just in the back. then the movies came out. and jesse has been transformed
in the superman that fought the railroad. the guerrillas for the enemy. the medial bankers who were going to take the house because of the mortgage payment. that's a story you see over and over again. that's why he was a hero. there are people that look at jesse today that are out there. that was one of the reasons i wanted to revisit the subject. i want to really see the real jesse james what he was like and the gang members themselves. he's very, very different than the legend of robin hood. as far as movies, there've been several. i think the really good to bring up. several movies almost always in these movies, they show the track but the people know how to time. i think what that tells these people find it hard to believe
that this hardened game of criminals can be defeated by everyday citizens, which they were. that's exactly what happened. my favorite jesse james movie is the assassination of jesse james starring brad did. it was filmed in canada. i think it best jesse james have ever seen on film. robert wagner is great. robert duval is a good jesse, but what are the best of this characterization by brad pit. >> i have two questions. number one, do any of the outlaws have been a descendent. and my question is, if you file a revolver, how have you it is not armed.
>> as far as defendants, yes. they're a descendent of the james family. jesse left two children, a boy and a girl and robert frank and jamie. the younger brothers did not have any children, but they had nieces. consider tangential a guesser offshoots from the younger family that are still out there. i was actually contacted recently by a relative of the chad well and had a photograph that he wondered if bill chabrol was related and it turns out in his ancestor was a brother of bill chabrol. his name is james surgeon general. i ran into all types of people descended from the citizens that fought back but they escape to minnesota. another relative of nicholas kesterson. there's a fan of an account of
the robbers before they are captured in a shootout. the thompson's family. there's a lot of descendents out there. i get lots and lots of e-mails and not lots of people with great tories about jesse and frank watering their horses at her horse trough. a good buddy of mine i grew up with has a host that belonged to jesse source. it's very nicely polished. i mean, why would she go to all an effort to polish it and make it presentable and everything. so what was the second? begun. yes, they did not carry rifles or shotguns. they did have multiple pistols. sometimes rare for revolvers to give you as much firepower as possible. they really goes back to their days as bushwhackers. these guys are way calgary. they've multiple revolvers. at that time in the civil war,
each chamber had to be loaded. 1976 or kercher got and is carrying several in as much firepower as possible. the favorite weapons are the top buttons of the day. the colt action revolver in the smith & wesson was the perfect weapon for them and i'm like the colt, and had an ejector that was supposed to pop the cartridge is very quick to reload. sometimes they had both. and a couple scolds. at jesse's death via colt single action army and the smith & wesson as part of his arsenal. a bunch of revolvers. [inaudible] >> i think they probably did have a shoulder holster type assembly and also holsters on their belts as well. the dead bodies of the robbers
discuss their clothing and was in their pockets and bill chabrol's pockets are stuffed with cartridges they said, which i thought was interesting because if you have a cartridge belt come you don't have to fill your pockets. they said his pockets were filled cartridges. he was ready. he was prepared. >> we were in liberty last week and they robbed a bank there and got $60,000 then they robbed other banks. all that money, did they spend it as fast as they got it? >> guest: they spent it as fast as they got it. it went through their fingers like water. they spent it quickly. jesse unearthing anything and instead. his wife and children were pretty much destitute. they had an option. auctioned a lot of furnishings in the house they were living in. he was planning another robbery at his death to replenish those funds. the robbery was in 1866.
jesse probably wasn't involved in that. some of the other youngers might have been part of that. we don't know all the identities. in fact, it's really difficult to know the makeup of the games for each particular robbery until we get to that robbery in july 1876 when he named all apemen. for the first time, there's solid identification. but the game had been different before that it would be different later as well. i want to thank the st. louis county library. i want to thank c-span. i really had a great time here tonight. anyway, my next book is going to be on teddy roosevelt and the roughriders. thanks. nomar out loud for a while. [applause]
>> i never expected to write an entire book on cancer until i was diagnosed at a relatively young age. i was astonished at how different i thought it was. how different was going through treatment and what i had heard about cancer and what i expect to cancer to be. and i sort of expect that it -- i expect to be to be like a well oiled machine and which care what the numbers are guaranteed, but people know about my particular cancer. but i found was something really, really different. so i couldn't help starting to write about it.