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tv   Book Discussion on Going Clear  CSPAN  November 17, 2013 5:30pm-6:31pm EST

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>> some of the best sellers from 2009. visit our website to watch all the programs we have erred of the last 15 years. in anticipation of live coverage we are featuring the five finalists for nonfiction. and no lines right, staff writer for the new yorker reports and the church of scientology, national book award nominated tunnel going clear scientology, hollywood command imprisons a belief. it is an hour. [applause] >> thank you, bradley. thank you all for coming. this bookstore is a great institution. i have been here many times,
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spoken in many times. my son used to be a breeze to year. we have a lot of old ties to politics and prose. and you know, i thought i would talk a little bit. and so much to say about scientology. here i am in washington which has a unique role in scientology at the other would talk a little bit about the history of how washington plays into scientology. born in 1911. and when he was 12 his father was stationed here. he came through the panama canal with this family. that was a memorable trip for him because on that ship there was a figure who would change his life. his name was lieutenant commander snake thompson.
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now, many people used to say that that man did not really exist, but he did. he was a real figure. part of his assignment in the navy camille best buy in japan. he was also a cat fancier. he was responsible for her introducing burmese cats. he was a fascinating figure. he trained cats. he added trade canseco. the young ron hubbard was on this ship coming to the panama canal on is whether washington. snake thompson had just been to vienna to talk to floyd. he was riding in the count from the navy. and to do with the mental health of veterans and serving military personnel. he had gone to vienna to learn what it could. and he drowned some of the
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information into this very impressionable at the man. so when they arrived in washington a couple of things happen. hubbard is a boy scout. he claimed to be the youngest eagles got ever. but regardless of his marriage in that regard he came and made calvin coolidge at the white house. cloudy was here he went to the library of congress and read up on floyd. well, that was a turning point in his career. it happened right here in washington. it is appropriate that we need here also on a boat tour meant talking about scientology because if there was ever -- i mean, every movement in a way has a book behind it. you can always look through
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these movements. someone has written a book contains the world that first world shaking book was diabetic which came out in 1950. ended dominated the new york times best-seller list in a way that i hope to emulate. so much so, the category for self-help books. became so popular after the war. diphtheria dynamics is the you can hear yourself. you don't need to spend a whole lot of money. all you need to do is get at the root of your problem which are in a section of your mind, the reactive mind. and there are buried all the fears that have grown out of bad experiences you've had in your lifetime. and if you can just recall the,
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lead them of your energy will clear your reactive mind. when you achieve that state you will become clear. that book sold millions of copies. hubbard made millions of dollars and lost them as well. he even lost control of the name dynamics for its time. he decided that there was another way. that job data myself. i missed a valuable part of west ministry he really wanted -- to get another life and mine for self. president of the gliding club.
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quite an adventure is character. but he did not finish. he was a miserable student. he often claimed to have completed his education here in civil engineering. really wasn't true. he did go on to write dynamics. after that he invented the religion. it's called scientology. well, what is scientology exactly? is a lot to know about it. it's a very eccentric world view created by a writer whose specialty was science fiction. and so there are many elements in scientology the sound like science fiction because there were written by somebody who had written very similar things the idea is that you are and immortal soul and you live for
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and you will live again. remember the past five times and chief your salvation. this is good news. in the course of therapy called on the between you and your auditors a device. toucans. in the old days it used to the campbell soup cans with the label scared off there's a small amount of electricity passing through those wires. one-third of an actual lie detector. it measures your skin responses without your pulse of respiration. it does do something. and so when you're talking to your other the kneele is
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constantly registering. now, in scientology they think that it measures the massive your thoughts. they think the onset of mass. you can see the movement as they disaggregate it read a painful memory might show up on the meter, and if you continually go through and training of its painful qualities in the middle slow them. present it no longer affects your behavior. if you have that happen to you, the next thing might be you would be asked to fund an earlier advance. there's an argument with your wife some of the moment in your life that resembles the moment? you might say, yes my mother once said the same thing to me when i was about to and then on never forget it pretty soon it
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calms down. you go back further and further. one of the things that happened during this time, hubbard moved again to washington d.c. in 1957. moving right around dupont circle. i share many of you noted fun of the historic churches of scientology, one of the most beautiful buildings in this neighborhood. one of the original church is scientology. much of his theology was invented here. during that time people began to have memories and the one. this was a controversial experiment in the history of scientology. you really remember that far
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back. remember arguments the appearance and while there were having intercourse is something like that. then they began to have memories even further back to my previous lifetimes. hubbard himself began to resist that. eventually he endorsed it wholeheartedly. now just imagine you've had that argument with your spouse, remember the argument with your mother suddenly in your other than you might have an image. in your other says, stop right there. well, i don't know. and just had an image of a farmhouse. well, look around. what d.c.? you might say, well, i seeresses, straw. open the door and walk :.
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what it looks like in the 17th century. well, bear in mind, it might be saying this is true if you believe that it adds validity to this image that is then amplified into what feels like a real memory. that becomes a past life. for many people this is real and valid as other real memories live at. think the important that would be, that knowledge that, yes, i did live again. therefore i am immortal. another thing that happens oftentimes is that people have the experience of leaving the body. scientology is called drawing exteriors. they sense that they have floated away. they can look around behind, go the other planets. i'm not trying to denigrate the
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sperry says the people of in scientology or other religions. what other people sale of scientology, a criticism that they might launch against the church is not going to really reach them. they had a chance for me experience, got information that they find valuable. now a couple of questions that people often ask me. and going to treat them kind of quickly, but i think there are important. was hubbard crazy? he is often seen that way. he did have concerns that he expressed about his own mental health. he actually wrote to the veterans of ministration per some assistance. some kind of psychological assistance. he never actually -- we don't
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have any record that he actually got that. many people live given me their diagnosis. some professionals have weight gain. malignant narcissism. and certainly if elected is behavior you don't show a lot of a thing nobody in history has ever mounted his own mentality choir is carefully as l. ron hubbard. meticulous the examining every detail. here we are in the bookstore. i have to take by halftime. he holds the guinness book of world records for the number of titles republished be more than a thousand. he continually rope mostly what
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he wrote about to buy his own interior journey. that is what scientology really is. and when he enters the church of scientology, it's like a breadcrumb cheryl in his mind bit deeper into his mind to go. one way and look at hubbard, if we were in another culture, an aboriginal culture, anthropologist's sometimes talk of schizophrenia as being a shaman disease. people who have these experiences, sometimes in our culture we would say they're crazy in need to be on medication. people who have extraordinary mental breakdowns attorneys come
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back and feel like the heal themselves. they are the people that people go to to be healed. he added. the his life that he propagated as the truth. he said that he was a guerrilla veteran of world war ii peace said that after the war he was so badly injured that he was blinded and crippled and that medicine cannot help them. so he developed his own techniques of healing, and those of the techniques that evolved into diabetics. it then became the root of scientology. but, the record shows that he was never injured in the war. he did have conjunctivitis, but there was nothing seriously wrong with them.
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the idea of the shaman's journey is buried in the legend that he created about self. now, was he a con man? this is believe the most common perception. i think that if he really were a con man at some point in his life there would have taken the money and run. he never did that. he spent his entire existence alone with those kansas and staring at the meter trying to find will was going on inside the vast universe inside his mind that was how he passed all of his time to be creating a bureaucracy to support this amazing theology that he come up with. now hubbard died 27 years ago today he was succeeded by airing
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a man named david this damage whose 25 years old. he was not the designated successor. he shoved aside his competitors and ruthlessly to control the church. his one great legacy also took place here. when hubbard died he mated decision to not raise taxes. the church of scientology. and by 1993 the church of a billion dollars to the irs. it did not have a billion dollars. it was an existential moment. the church had to get a tax exemption. in in order to do that it had to give the irs to recognize it as a religion.
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and there's only one agency in the country that can determine whether your religion and not, and that is the irs. the organization is very ill equipped to make such sanctions. so how did the church of scientology go about acquiring that exemption? well, they began by launching a series of lawsuits against the irs, 2400 against the irs and individual agents. they hired private detectives to follow agent spivvy the evenfall of them to conventions and see who was drinking too much for fooling around. it would write about those episodes in their own magazine. intimidation, forceful responses to the irs to menderes was brought to its knees.
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it was really overwhelmed by this cascade of lawsuits. but there was a problem the church still had. it of a billion dollars. both of these entities with modern dance. one day take it was here, the current head of the church now. he was having lunch with one of the attorneys here in washington along with his wife who represents. and they were having lunch at the bombay club. and suddenly said, look, i've had enough of this bill we were going to go over to the address. the lawyers were kind of stunned
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. indeed did jump in again and went to 1111 constitution avenue and 110. we're from the church of scientology. you want to see the commissioner well, the commissioner was not really available that very moment, but he quickly was. they had an interest in getting this resolved as well. now, then maybe it merits the reason the irs made the distinction that the church of scientology is a bonafide religion. i don't know. i don't know what the standards they use to determine a religion are. in any case, the circumstances, the trade off was that the suits stopped and the agents and was granted. once that happened these vast privileges and protections of the first amendment guarantees of religion surrounded the church of scientology and protected it until the stay.
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so those events all took place in washington d.c. i thought i would just give you a little bit of historical background before inviting you to respond with some questions. thank you. [applause] >> thank you so much for coming. can you speculate as to the future? you seem to be. [inaudible] >> yes, i'd be happy talk about that. i'm not the first to talk about this. i've had 12 people tell me that they did physically assaulted them.
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more than 20 witnesses. he was not the only one inside a church that was beating people up, but he was the head of the church. and it was quite remarkable, that some -- that kind of behavior could go one. some of the people who were beaten and others were confined. the re-education camps in different locations. especially in the desert compound in southern california which is where the c word, the clergy of scientology has its headquarters, 500 acres. on that compound there are two double wide trailers. at one. he decided that he was going to start sending some of his top level executives there for re-education.
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all the furniture was taken out. they slept on the floor, sleeping bags. only allow the once a day for a shower in a rush. and during that time there were supposed to query each other about what their crimes are, what's gone wrong. until you what went wrong, there was a lot of physical confrontation, a lot of abuse. more than 100 people of one. really the entire top tier of scientology management was confined. this is gone on for years i friend could tell you stories about having interviewed in years ago. he's been locked up for seven years.
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i speak as an amateur here about tax law. i understanding of the 501c3 is that at least the one that the churches given, there are layers of accountability. there has to be responsibility. one entity is accountable to the next. when you have one individual who can put all the other individuals into a double wide trailer for years on end, i don't know the you can say that there is any other individual who has any power in front of the church of scientology. i think the churches and a crisis point in its future not willing to come forward and confront his accusers. people and mr. chair responsibility. a moral responsibility to address those abuses. that particularly charm the
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celebrity have been used to promote scientology. nobody else has done more to bring people in to scientology. they have a responsibility to understand what's going on. the supreme court, with the basic form of fund-raising, fixed donation was not an income tax deductible on. in october of 1993, evidently its independent from the eaves and organization. normally it gave tax exemptions overruled the u.s. supreme court and gave them that tax deduction . cal in the world can the irs of rule a judgment of the u.s.
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supreme court? >> your obviously better qualified answer that and i am. one thing i would say, when they gave that exemption they also awarded the church the power to determine which of its own entities are tax-exempt. i have been seeking a power myself another thing that they have, hubbard wrote in a memorable novels. those are also tax-exempt. they had nothing to do with the church scripture, but according to the irs this capacious judgment that was given to the church kamal of that falls under this jurisdiction of religious literature. indicated publicly that they had spent $1 million in investigating the iras before that was given. who follows up on something like that? well, you know, i think it first
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of all the when you have a situation like that it's an ideal place for an investigative reporter to go in and say, no, that many of the same questions. i think the windows need to be opened. i've tried as much as i possibly can to crack them open. i get very little cooperation but i think awareness in the public and demand a public officials of we know more about it. >> said he personally been intimidated by scientology? a time reporter, said that after changes in the case is quite
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became so intolerable. prevented the publication of your book in england. the second part of my question, you know, people disappearing in being held against their will, where is the justice department? >> you will have to remind me if i don't hit every point. i just had innumerable legal letters. i am not intimidated by them. my last book was about al qaeda. [laughter] one thing i have learned, it al qaeda doesn't have any lawyers. if they did there would be a really dangerous organization. the u.k., yes, it's true. by british publisher backed out.
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it shows several things. one is that my american publisher offered kurds and was willing to withstand all these kind of shots across the bout of we have been receiving. i'm very grateful to have that kind of support. and been asked by the international writers' organization to go to britain and talk to members of parliament and the minister of justice about the libel laws which are foreclosed in many cases, the flow of information to people who might really need information about an organization that could be very dangerous. i understand the stance of the brits and this kind of thing. we're going to turn to will begin to change it can and hoping to find another british publisher who is willing.
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okay. while i was doing my story for the new yorker i stumbled over an fbi investigation. they're line of attack was human trafficking. .. and the fbi ran up a white flag.
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so, -- but according to one of my sources, they were thinking of doing a raid. it's got high senses and motion detectors and formidable, but they were going to break in and go into the hole and open the door and liberate everyone. they go so far as to think that david would try to escape in tom cruise's airplane. so they got the tail numbers on tom cruise's airplane to make sure it didn't go away. what my sources told the fbi if you broke open the hole and said, you're free, people would say we're here by our own will so the book is the prison of belief. >> i was wondering if you came across a dollar amount of what
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would be needed to fight -- defeat -- >> seems there's always money coming in but it doesn't good anywhere. >> well, there is a lot of money in scientology. when hubbard left the church, they didn't have that much money. he had a lot of money. a lot of money was transferred to historied account. but when they had that huge liability to the irs, they just didn't have that much money in their coffers now they have a billion dollars in asset in offshore accounts. the catholic church would have trouble coming up with a billion dollars in cash. that's a testament to the emotion of the members to amass that amount of money.
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whether or not they had money or lawyers as they have, what they really need is members, and the future that george is going to depend on itsability to actually bring people into the church, and in that regard they're really failing. >> very interesting. i wanted to know, are there other movie stars other than tom cruise that have become involved in this, and any thoughts as to why movie stars might by attracted to it? and many years ago, growing up in another country, i had a friend whose brother disappeared into a ship, boat, it was -- i don't -- do people still disappear into this organization? and is there no legislation at all to try to stop these characters? >> let me start with the ship. in the mid-'60s, hubbard
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created a little scientology armada, and they sailed the mediterranean and then the caribbean, and the young people that he hired to be the crew, young scientologists, were called the sea org. the sea organization, that became the clergy. if your friend went into that, he probably became a member of the sea org and may have gotten closeted in one of their compounds. they're not encouraged to deal with the outside world. as for celebrities, the church of scientology was designed for celebrities. it was founded in los angeles. celebrity center is there in hollywood. it's one of the major landlords in all of hollywood.
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and early on the church published a list of prospective celebrities for the church of scientology. hubbard wanted exemplary figures, who would be pitch men for his religion, and the names on the list were like bob hope, walt disney, malena deitrick. a long lost of some of the most notable people in america in the '50s, and people did go in. gloria swanson, for instance, former silent movie star, who came back in sunset boulevard. she joined the church of scientology. rock hudson made a brief appearance in the church. there's some other names that are not as current today, but steven boyd and karen black. but the big fish, the one that would be the transforming figure, eluded capture.
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the first of the biggest fish was john travolta, and his story is exemplary. he was a young -- troubled young actor who was doing his first movie in mexico, and he became friends with an actress, and she decided to give him a copy of dine diane yetics, and he went exterior. he had an out of body experience. this really made a huge impression on him. and then when he came back to los angeles, he started going -- taking courses at the celebrity center, and one day he told his teacher he was trying out for a role in "welcome back cotter.
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" so the teacher had everybody in the class -- if you can imagine you're the encloses -- orient themselves toward abc studio asks telepath include send the message, john travolta is right for the part. and he got the part. so, after that he always said that scientology put him in the big-time. i have a -- some concerns about travolta brings up a story that i think is also an important one to understand. one of my sources, delightful woman named spanky taylor. she joined the church when she was young teenager, and because of her charm and bubbly nature, she was assigned to help young actors, and one of the young actors was john travolta who was just beginning to have this burst of fame, and it was hard for him to handle, and spanky helped them through that emotional difficult period.
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and his mother died, and he really leaned on her. now, spanky had a little girl, and she was pregnant, and a friend of hers was dying, and she felt that the church wasn't taking good care of her, and she got angry and was sent to this rpf thing, this old hospital on the edge of hollywood, big blue building many of you have sin with a big yellow sign of scientology on it that looms over the district. it's an old hospital, and there were so many people crowded in old patient rooms by the dozens, that spanky was put on the roof in a soggy mattress. she is pregnant. she is eating slop out of a bucket. she is in hollywood. look around. you can see sunset boulevard. just imagine the contrast, and her baby is taken from her to a
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scientology child care place, where there's only one woman overlooking dozens of children. at one point spanky went over to see her baby, vanessa, and vanessa had whooping cough, and her crib was soaking wet and and her eyes were glued shut with mucous, and spanky thought she could die. and since she was pregnant and was losing weight, she thought she would lose her baby as well. so, she was really, really scared. and at this point members of the church came to her and asked if she could get a print of "saturday night fever" from travolta. the deal was she -- if she agreed to call travolta's assistant and he said he would give her the print -- the only copy left, his personal copy, but the deal was, she had -- he
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hadn't heard from her for months, and he didn't know what was wrong with her. i think he must have suspected. he said the deal is i want to have dinner with you. so, okay, the scientology executives agree to the dole, they get the print, show the movie, and then she is taken and forced to call travolta and break the date. he sent her flowers that were taken up to her in the rpf. but i have to say, what did he know? what did he know about his friend, who had taken care of him? she finally made an escape. calling travolta's assistant to come pick her up as she going to supposedly take her daughter for medical treatment, and she jumped in the car and fled. but i still wonder, you know, when people like john travolta and tom cruise stand up and say what a great place scientology is. if they remember those occasions and acknowledge the abuses taking place right under their
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noses. >> thank you for being here. you're fascinating. i love your writing. >> thank you. >> my question is twofold. why aren't there any police reports like this other woman asked about all the abuse -- when people get on the freeway, take their passports away, don't have any money, can't escape no where to go. there was a show on tv this week about a pregnant woman who was forced to actually live in a parking garage while she was pregnant. why don't these people, after they defect -- why don't they report this? and number two, why do people stay even though they're mistreated. >> these two questions are tied together. let me put you in the mind frame of someone who -- say, someone who has been abused on this gold base in the desert compound.
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and it could be that if you're that person -- suppose you joined, like many of the people, when you were a child, or maybe you were born into it. let's say that probably, many of your family members, maybe all of them, are members of the church. your whole show site is composed of people like you in the scientology and probably the sea org, and you don't have any education to speak of. you're impoverished. you're paid $50 a week. when you become a member of the sea org, you're given two shorts and two pairs of pants and that's your lifetime allotment. so all of your other needs come out of the money. so, you don't have very much contact with the outside world. you're taught to be very suspicious of it.
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scientologists are called wog, a slur that the brits had for south asians but hubbard adopted it for nonscientologyist, and wog justice is something you would never do. so, say you've been physically abused, or some other reason would cows you want to leave the church. you could good through the front door. that would mean turning your back on all of your family and friends, into a society you're very ill equipped to go into, but if you did make that choice you would also be given a bill. a freeloader tab, and it's a bill for all the services you might have been getting during that period of time, or whatever else they want to add into it, and typically this is hundreds of thousands of dollars. your bank account probably is not that flush. and you're also made to sign a confession of crimes that you
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supposedly committed, and in case you ever say anything against the church, they'll have this document, and i've seen such documents -- to be used against you. if you decide on the other hand to just simply run away and you're able to get outside of the gate and escape, as a number of people i've talked to have been able to, they'll go after you. and try to bring you back. accomplish the -- i talked to the guy in charge of that -- they call it the blow driven at it chilling. they're able to call airlines and persuade them they're relatives and medical emergencies and fine out what flight you're on, send people out to sit outside your relatives' houses and monitor them. it's out in the desert, so they usually get you before you get very far. one guy -- they know so much about you. got all of your financial information, everything.
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you have to confess. one guy -- what really got him, he was well-known for his love for baseball, and they picked him up in the san francisco giants parking lot. so you can see this is a totalistic universe and it's very difficult to break away. yes, sir. >> two scenes. one is follow the money, and the need for plaintiffs who are inside who want to bring suit, and just recently, a couple in -- named the garcias, filed suit in district court in florida for fraud, for $400,000. naming various scientology organizations as well as by name, and supposedly with some contractual basis for their suit. to what extent would this be a way for the organization to face a new reality, where it's not an
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individual simply trying to break free but someone going after the money, something which is important to scientology. >> well, as i said earlier, this is an organization that has really lawyered up, and i talked to one of the lawyers who created the architecture, the bureaucratic architecture of scientology, and there's so many different departments, it's impossible to break the bank. they're isolated from one another. i met louis garcia and his wife, and i wish them well. i think it's a formidable task to take down scientology. it has to take itself down. somebody inside -- the reason i take on the celebrities and
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assign them this responsibility is the other executives are so cowed and have been locked up for such a long period of time, they have no power. the only power that anybody has in the church of scientology to really effect change are those front men that you constantly see, and they're the ones that i charge with changing that church. >> how much fidelity is there in the portrayal in the movie "the master" and the processes of the church? >> i love "the master." a lot of people don't agree with me, and maybe it is very obscure, and maybe because of my reading of so much of l. ron hubbard's work, it's more interesting to me than -- i thought the performances were really compelling, and i felt phillip seymour hoffman was a very plausible recent car nation of l. ron bub -- hubbard and you
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can see the charisma and contradictions in his personality that made hubbard such a compelling figure, great figure to write about. there were actually bits of dialogue in the movie that are in my book -- not that i wrote but someone else -- sources i used that turned up in the lips of some of the characters in that movie. so, yes there was fidelity in that way. and -- but it's elusive. it doesn't intend to be an exact depiction of the church of scientology, but just the allure of powerful personality like that. >> are you aware of any meaningful serious effort to challenge the 501(c)(3) exemption or go -- >> no. i am not. >> my question is about a set of abuses or alleged abuses you mention in your book. you say that the scientology
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organization does not believe that its seaorg leadership, women should have babies, but denies to you that it's ever pressured any pregnant woman to have an abortion. but your book also says that numbers of pregnant women have said to you and to others that they have been pressured by scientology organizations to have abortions that they didn't want to have. >> right. >> so, can you explain how specific are the allegations of the pressure on the one hand, and how specific are the denials as to the particular contentions, and have you drawn a conclusion? >> i've talked to a lot of women that said they had abortions and they were told to have abortions, and men who said their wives were pushed to have abortions. it's not just women that feel
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the laws. and some of those people are out now, and will never have families. they missed that opportunity. so it's a really tragic thing. but the leverage that the church uses -- used to be there were children in scientology. used to be onboard ship. they caused a lot of trouble. and hubbard had a theory that children are not different from adults, they're just small. and therefore they should be treated as you would treat an adult, and so when a child misbehaved, he came up with a -- one of his punish. s was to put them in the chain locker, where the anchor chain is stored, and it's cold and dark and dank, and they would be fed but were not allowed out to go to the bathroom or go to
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sleep. just nut there for days and some for weeks. and he actually but a deaf girl down there in the hope she would regain her hearing. so, the treatment of children became a huge issue early on, and finally it was decided, we can't have them. we can't have kids here. they had a ranch for children, and the children essentially built their own dormitories dord gave themselves schooling and so on. very, very little adult supervision. so, it came to pass that the decision was made no more kids, which meant that you get pregnant, you have a choice. you can leave the seaorg with all the consequences, losing your tie to your family and so on, and having very little to look forward to, and the sense of losing your eternal salvation, or you can wash out
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of the seaorg and be sent off to some remote location as a staff member. in the face of that, a lot of people chose to have the abortion. and what they do is they go to the county health in riverside county and charge it to the taxpayers. >> my question is whether the allegations of pressure to have the abortions or to get your wife to have the abortion -- are they specific? do they mention time? place? and you about the denials? are they specific? either that person was not in scientology, or the wife wasn't in scientology? the personperson doing the pressure -- are they specific. >> the allegations of abortion are personal. women withs women or a husband would say this happened to me, and you see sometimes in court suits where they specified dates like this. the church's response is categorically, we don't do that.
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>> i've read a couple of your articles and another book about scientology, looking forward to reading your book in total, but mr. hub bar comes across as a ma levi lent leader. has hey really denatured scientology or is what he is doing a follow-on from the principles instilled by l. ron hubbard? >> well, david and l. ron hubbard are different in one way. david grew up in scientology and l. ron hubbard did not. you can't say that david is not a creation of scientology because he joined it when he was a young teenager.
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he joined the seals when he was 16 after dropping out of high school. his entire adult life and most of his entire life has been lived inside this organization. so he is a manifestation of it. although many ex-members think that he has taken the church away from the original teachings of l. ron hubbard. every religion faces an ex-extension shall moment when the founder dies, and whether it's brigham young or paul after christ or whoever, is going to -- either the religion is going to survive because of the successor or it's going to perish because the charismatic founderes now gone. david did save scientology when he got the tax exemption, and the church would not exist if it weren't for that.
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however, the church is in disarray now, in part because of the behavior that he has exhibited according to many of my sources. so i think that it is now time for the church to examine those. thank you. >> last question. >> i'm wondering if you can talk about their hatred of psychiatry and the things they have done involving that. >> psychiatry -- you can say that psychiatry drives them nuts. l. ron hubbard was under the illusion he was going to be acclaimed by the american psychological association and the american psychiatric association. he sent the manuscript to them and they laughed at him. and to the point of scientists -- this is like
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psychological folk art. who would take this seriously? where are these studies he is citing but there's no evidence that they actually exist, and his intuition he drew upon to imagine human behavior was something that, in the field of psychiatry, was seen as incredibly naive and disturbing. so, ever after that, hubbard took no -- left no opportunity to attack psychiatry, but he was more than that. he alleges that psychiatrist is at the root of all human ills, and everything -- terrorism, racism, genocide, psychiatrists are behind it. when tom cruise jumped down matt
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lauer's throat about brooke shield and said, you don't know the history of ski, -- psychiatry, matt, i do? what he is referring to is that. he is referring to hubbard's belief that four trillion years ago, which i in the scientology calendar, when the universe began, psychiatrists were there, and the -- you know, the evil galactic overlord who is responsible for so much of the damage, he was surrounded by psychiatrists, and they came up with a plan to -- because they were overpopulated in the galaxy at the time to bring in the surplus population, supposedly for tax audits.
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freeze them, send them in rocket ships that resemble dc3s to a prison planet, and drop them in volcanos and blow them up with nuclear bombs and then capture their disembodied spirits and re-educate those spirits and about england and the catholic church and that's where we come from. about it's psychiatrists that are behind all this. so, in brief, that's the relationship of the church of scientology and psychiatry. thank you very minute. [applause]
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>> november 22, 02013 is the 50th anniversary of the assassination of john f. kennedy, and there are several books to mark the event now. month's book tv become club we want to know what kennedy book you're reading. join other readers to discuss the kennedy books from this year. go to the chat room and check out the book club resource wes have posted, including book reviews and videos from the book tv archives and log in as a guest through your facebook or twitter account to post your thoughts on the kennedy books you're reading. then join book tv on saturday,
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november 30th for a live google plus chat to discuss books on the 35th president. contact book tv via facebook or twitter to sign up for the live chat. >> 2013 marks booktv's 15th 15th anniversary. this weekend we're looking back at 2009 in january of that year a panel discussioned the publication of the late william f. buckley's final book, "the reagan i knew" details his relationship with former president ronald reagan and contains correspondence between the two. including this program is an hour. >> thank you for

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