Skip to main content

tv   Book TV  CSPAN  November 30, 2013 12:00pm-1:16pm EST

12:00 pm
you're watching booktv on c-span2. >> you're. watching booktv. coming up next, sheryl sandberg, the coo of facebook, discusses why it's still difficult for women to achieve leadership roles in the united states. she also talks about her own career choices and experiences. this is about an hour, 15 minutes. [applause] >> let's begin by thanking the computer history museum for putting on this seminar along with the sponsors, and in the place has been such an interesting place to listen, to learn, to not only understand history, but to understand the future. so thank you, john, and thank you, everybody. >> thank you. [applause] >> i met sheryl in the late '90s when she was running what appeared to be about a third of the treasury department. impossiblily young and impossiblily smart be, she
12:01 pm
impressed all of us with what she did in the clinton administration in the first and second terms. so when it came time for her to choose a job, it became pretty obvious that she should be at google. and so she and i chatted -- [laughter] she and i chatted, and i figured this is somebody who we could use, a genuine talent. of course, we didn't exactly have a job for her, but at google it's fine. i will hire really smart people. and she came in and wandered around, worked on our financing, learned the business, and then she and -- [inaudible] figured out that we needed to have a different kind of sales force. in the subsequent six years, she built a business that today is somewhere around $20 billion and established the recruiting practices that led the company to its current excellent condition.
12:02 pm
>> then shockingly, shockingly -- [laughter] she shows up and says i'm going to go work for mark. and i said, how could this be? [laughter] i mean, is there something wrong? no, no, no, no. i'm interested in this new area. okay, well, whatever. [laughter] so we did various things to try to recruit her, but her heart was set to go to facebook where, shockingly, she did extremely well. [laughter] and, in fact, she repeated the success a second time which is really -- which has really not occurred, i think, very often in our industry. maybe once or twice. and i thought, wow, that's pretty impressive. so i figured, okay, she's doing really well. so then she decides to write a book which immediately becomes a
12:03 pm
number one bestseller. [laughter] so i have no idea what she's going to do as her next encore, but we're talking about one of the great leaders of our industry and today, of course, we're going to talk about very, very serious subjects. but when i think of sheryl, i think of somebody who has built two multi-billion dollar businesses already, and she's got a lot ahead of her. so with that, i think it's extraordinary to have you here, sheryl. >> well, thank you. and i want to thank eric who hired me at google -- >> yes. >> when no unelse will. gave me, as i say in my book, the best career advice of my career, which i'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about. but we all get to do the things we do because of great mentors, great advisers, and eric has been that through google, through facebook -- which he was lovely about. >> i think the book she's written is just extraordinary. [laughter]
12:04 pm
what are they laughing at? >> they really like your book. they like the title. they think it's great. they think it's a bestseller. [laughter] okay. let's try to give a serious interview here, because these are serious subjects. let's start by why did you write this book? i mean, what -- frankly, you're busy, right? >> as you are. >> yeah. but you're like seriously busy. [laughter] >> you know, i wrote "lean in" because no matter how much progress women have made, the world and, you know, get ready for the blunt truth here, the world is still overwhelmingly run by men. >> with i'm shocked. >> and i'm not sure how well -- [laughter] i'm not sure how well that's going. [laughter] [applause] >> economic growth, war, pestilence, disease. >> climate change. >> climate change, i forgot that one too. gridlock in washington. >> you know what's really
12:05 pm
happening is women have made great progress, right? from the generation my mother was in, my grandmother was in til now, but it's still true that men run every industry and government in the world. that means when decisions are made that most impact our world, women's voices aren't equally heard, and that's true at the corporate boardroom, the pta meaning, and so i wrote "lean in" to try to talk openly about the stagnation women are facing at the top and to give, you know, just practical advice to both women and men who want to do their part to change it. >> what i'd like to do, is i'd like to cover some of the topics in the book which i actually really enjoyed, i think is great, and i recommend you all buy it. i suspect that every single person in this room has already bought it, right? but if you haven't, we're going to be selling it here, book signing, the whole bit. but let's start with i'll give you an example. let me give you -- i want you to sort of, i'll read a sentence or
12:06 pm
two to give a sense of it. in addition to the essential barriers in society, women are inhibited by barriers in ourselves. we lack self-confidence, by not raising our hands and by pulling back when we should be leaning in. finish that thought. this, i think, is the rationale for the lean in movement, what you're doing, the extraordinary social phenomena. there are now lean in parties, extensive use of facebook, i might offer, to make all this happen, etc. >> yeah. so women are held back. women aren't making it to the top, and it's stagnating. women have had 14% of the top corporate jobs in america for ten years. you taught me very clearly that trends that go up for a long time and then are flat for a long time don't go up again. they often go down. so you have to be worried about that. and women are held back by all kinds of external barriers. institutional, bad public policy, institutional barriers, sex schism discrimination, and
12:07 pm
all of that is really important. we're also held back by the internalization of stereotypes. so at my wedding -- which you were at my wedding, so you remember this -- my brother and sister stood up, and they gave a toast. they said, hi, we're sheryl's younger brother and sister, david and michelle, but we're not really, we're really her first employees. employee one and employee two. [laughter] because sheryl never really played as a child. [laughter] she just organized other children's play. [laughter] and everyone laughed. and it is funny. it was funny then, it's funny now. they said it with love, but there's something not funny about that too because what they were saying was with i was a bossy little girl. >> tell the truth, were you a bossy little girl? >> absolutely. the question is how do we experience that because of these stereotypes? little boys are almost never called bossy, because when a little boy leads, there's
12:08 pm
nothing to note. that's expected. but when a little girl leads or organizes other kids can, she's bossy which we're communicating very young. and so it is those stereotypes that we internalize. everyone can do this. go to a meeting tomorrow at work, and watch where people sit relative to the same level of position more men than women sit at the front and at the center, and more women sit at the back and on the side. in reality we hold ourselves back as well. if we're going to fix the problem for women in leadership, we have to solve the external barriers and the internal barriers. >> in the book you talk about the problem of an executive woman at the table. and you point out that some leaders who are ceos actually see this interruption phenomena, and they will call it out in the meeting. >> that's right. >> it's the only way, in your view -- and i agree with this -- to get this behavior where men just dominate the conversation and interrupt women. >> that's right. >> just like i'm interrupting you. [laughter] >> no, no, this is an interview.
12:09 pm
it's not interrupting. this doesn't count. but what happens is that more men -- more women than men get interrupted at every level, and i've seen you do this as well, when that happens, he will interrupt the stories in the book, and he will say i'd like to hear what she's saying. you go around the table and ask everyone what they think which accomplishes the same thing. the point is that all of us need to do this. what's really important here is not just ceos who can do this. you don't have to be eric schmidt or ken chenault to do this. the most junior person in the world, male or female, can interrupt and say i'd like to hear what she's saying, and that is a power move and something that will get everyone's great respect. so the thesis of "lean in" is if we understand the stereotypes and call them out, we can change them. >> so in the book you talk about the situation in education, and you point out that what is now becoming clear is that we, in
12:10 pm
fact, have a crisis of men, not women, in the educational system. roughly speaking, and these are broad generalizations of female performance in math and science on a broad basis is roughly equal that of men. it is higher in verbal than in math skills for women, again, there's always exceptions, that furthermore 58, 59% of women are now completing college. what is happening when these women graduate from college, right? so we're producing extraordinarily talented women into the workplace. what happens to them? are they -- is it -- are the men holding them down? this are hay being discriminated against? are they failing to act in how would you describe it? let's talk about this, there's this huge cohort of women that are sort of your age and slightly below that have come into the workplace and changing it, and yet they've got notten to the top. >> that's right. the answer is all of the above to everything you said. women graduate at higher levels than boy withs from college. they get more graduate degrees,
12:11 pm
and they get more entry-level jobs along with their college degrees, and then it just win knows out. so every year, you know, fewer women than men get promoted, and by the time you get to the top, at 1% in the united states -- 14% in the united states, and there's not a single country in the world that doesn't have 95% of its top countries run by men. so it literally goes like this. some of them leave the work force if they can afford be to do so, some of them stay in the work force but don't go for the promotions. >> in the book you talk about a fact which is called the stereotype threat where people actually underperform if they're told they're a member of a stereotype. >> right. >> do you think that's one of the things driving these behaviors? >> yes. and it explains both the dearth of women in leadership skills and the death of women -- dearth of women in computer science. stereotypes, as you said, if you become aware of a stereotype, you will act in its accordance. so this is why if you remind boys and girls that they're boys or girls right before a math
12:12 pm
test they have to check off m or f, the boys do the same, and the girls do worse. >> really? >> just that intervention. if you tell the same girls right before the same test girls do really good on this test, they do better. our stereotypes of boys are that they're better at math and science. we think more boys are computer scientists. you know, i put my son -- 7 years old last summer -- in camp at stanford. at 7 years old you have children, the parents are making the decisions. 35 kids in that class, 5 girlsful of those five girls, i put two of them in, it was my niece and her friend. [laughter] you know, it is silicon valley. like, let's wake up. parents, our generation, my age, are putting their boys in computer science camp at 7 and not their girls. that's stereotype threat because those boys are being told they're better, and they will be better because they went to the computer science camp. same thing happens to women in
12:13 pm
leadership. we don't ascribe leadership qualities to women, so when a man leads it's natural, and when a woman leads, it's not. i'll ask the audience, if you're a man here please raise your hand if anyone's ever told you you're too aggressive at work. [laughter] there's always a few. you're a woman, please raise your hand if anyone's ever told you you're too aggressive at work. that response -- >> okay. i think we're clear. [laughter] >> i mean, you have to ask yourself who do you think's really more aggressive, the men or the women? >> more women brought up their hands. [laughter] that was a joke, guys. [laughter] i mean, one of the great things about your book is you take people through some of these phenomena in society. another one you talk about is called the imposter syndrome which also, i think, drives some of this behavior. and what you say, for example, is both men and women are susceptible to the imposter syndrome, but women tend to be more limited by it.
12:14 pm
the beauty of the imposter syndrome is you vacillate between extreme egomania and complete feeling of i'm a fraud. how does that lay out? first, is it true, and it sounds like it is true. and how does it play out, in your view, in the minds of women who are trying to you can seed in the workplace? >> -- succeed in the workplace? >> you don't believe you own your success. the data tells us that given the same level of performance, men remember theirs slightly higher, and women remember theirs slightly lower. we also know that if you ask a man why he was successful, you know -- >> she said, i've got to read this to you. >> yeah, please. >> ask a man to explain his success, and he will typically explain his own innate qualities and skills. never! never! that's completely wrong. [laughter] >> i'm sorry, i'm an interviewer. shut up, eric. ask the women a similar question, she'll insist she did well because she got lucky or had help there others. >> that's right. and if she doesn't say that, other people will say it about
12:15 pm
her. and so what happens with the imposter syndrome is that relative to levels of performance, men feel more self-confident. the amazing thing is that i just wrote a whole book on this subject, and it's still happening to me. so after my book was done, published, out there, we had a meeting at facebook. it was a meeting of our senior management team. and there's an issue that for years this one, one of our senior technical leaders and and i both wanted facebook to do something, and no one else did. for years. and then over the last couple months people, mark and everyone decided, you know what? that is an investment worth making. so we had this kickoff meeting, and i'm pretty open emotionally, so i start the meeting by saying i am so grateful we're here today because for all these years i really believed in this, but no one else did, so i thought maybe i was wrong, and this is just fantastic. jay looks up, i knew sheryl and i were right and you'd all come along. [laughter] so i'm facebook messaging with
12:16 pm
jay. jay, can i use that story on my book tour? sure. jay, can i use your name in that story on my book tour? absolutely. he's the nicest guy, so i write, jay, don't worry, i'll make sure you don't look egotistical. oh, i'm not worried about that. [laughter] i mean, inconceivable that i would have any reaction like that. and relative to levels of performance, we continually do this. and it is that adjustment we have to make. what i say in my book is i can't change how anyone feels, i can't change how you feel, i can't change how i feel l because i'm still doing this, but i can know that as a woman i am sitting next to, on average, five jays. and i can know that he feels more self-confident, and i can know the data which is that women apply for jobs when they meet all of the criteria and men when they meet some and help women like myself adjust. >> you saw one of her gifts is
12:17 pm
she really can motivate. this is literally how she did all of these things, but getting people to feel very, very strongly and the passion that you've just noticed. a little snippet of sheryl's success right in front of you. we're going to come back to the whole person idea, which i think is important. i'm still interested in the sort of stereotypes and the perceptions and so forth because if they're true -- and i believe they're true -- they govern all of us. success and likability are positively correlated for men and negatively for women. you will remember that as part of the recruiting that you did, we studied correlations of male questioners versus female questioners and when men would hire people, they would correctly predict the person they hired's success if it was a man, but when they scored the likelihood of female success, it was anti-correlated. in fact, the prediction was exactly wrong. so i'm quite concerned that this stereotype bias even in nice liberal, open, well-run
12:18 pm
companies is quite profound. >> yeah. so the gender bias we feel, we all feel. myself included. so one thing that happens with gender bias is as women get more successful, powerful, they are less liked. and as men get more successful, powerful, they are better liked. and what's really important to understand about that is it's true of women and men. because often someone will say at work or, you know, life, oh, she's not as well liked. and the next answer is, oh, but women don't like her also. [laughter] gender bias affects all of us because we are all raised calling little girls bossy and not calling little boys, so that gender bias where we dislike success in women holds in all of us. i have it too. you know, i find myself in these patterns, and i think it is admitting that we are there, making it safe to admit that is a really important part of the answer. >> now, you know, i want to talk a little bit about how to sort of deal with these things as a woman in the workplace or and
12:19 pm
men reacting to it. and one of the things that's been covered the most about your book is the advice that you have about negotiations. and i agree with the way you describe this. so let me prompt the question by saying that you observe that women are much less likely to go for that extra part of the negotiation. you tell some stories of your own life where your inclination was to accept the offer, but your brother or friend or whatever said, well, ask osar another. and you actually make a suggestion for how women should process this -- >> yeah. >> and it was the way you summarize it is when you go back for the offer, the second offer, this is in negotiation i just want more, manager says, hey, guys, i want more. >> i deserve more. >> what's your problem, like god, right? and the woman in your advice is to legitimize the request, right? and i think this is very important. women i've worked with have not done this well compared to the men. >> yeah.
12:20 pm
so because of these stereotype biases we have if a man negotiates for himself, we all like him. it's totally fine. he's supposed to want more, he deserves more. he's great. if a woman negotiates for herself -- now, this is an important distinction, women can negotiate on behalf of others just as well and as aggressively as men, everyone likes them. >> by the way, you describe it as crossing a minefield backwards in high heels. [laughter] >> exactly. >> something i've not tried to do. >> which is difficult. >> i'm sure it is. >> with it's almost as scary as your chapter on terrorism in your book. [laughter] you guys have to realize this book, but that chapter is truly -- >> we get back to your book? [laughter] >> what i would say about is when women do the same thing men do, they might or may not win the discrimination, but they will be dislined, and then they -- disliked, and they will pay a penalty in terms of future advancement, their relationships. this is really important. >> they will pay a price in. >> they pay a penalty. >> they absolutely pay a
12:21 pm
penalty? >> not in every case, but on average the data is super clear. so when women negotiate for themselves, they have to legitimize it. i'd rather women and men were treated equally, but i think as long as we're not, we might as well understand the stereotypes and use them to make sure we get those promotions and get paid fairly. and so what women have to do is legitimize the advice. so a woman can say something like, and, you know, i did this in my book with mark, i said this is the only time we're going to be on op sit sides of the table, and you remember that you're hiring me to run your deal teams. you want me to be a good negotiator. i'm about to negotiate. reminding the person these are skills i'm bringing to the table. other things people do i say in the book, you can -- the data shows you can legitimize your advice by saying someone else told me to do it. i talked to a supervisor. one thing that's been funny since the book, there are all these articles people are marching in and saying sheryl sandberg told me to ask for a raise. [laughter]
12:22 pm
i mean -- >> leading to a profound salary explosion. >> when i suggested that you legitimize it, i didn't really have me in mind, i had someone in the company -- >> the best investment you've ever made. $14, 40% off at your local bookstore. >> but when they say, you know, sheryl sandberg wants me to get a raise, i do. because joking aside, women get paid 23% less than men for the same jobs in this country. and that's a problem. and it's not just a problem for people who work in -- >> let's repeat the statistic. 23%. >> women get paid 23% less, 77 cents to the dollar in this country for the same jobs. and, again, that's not a problem just for the women who can come to the computer history museum and work in our industry where people are well paid. that's a really big problem for the single mothers out there. 30% of our children in this cub are being raised -- country are being raised by single parents, almost all single mothers.
12:23 pm
that 23 cents is a big deal. and what "lean in" is about is about equality and equity throughout our economy and our country. and we have to change that. >> you talk, you talk a little bit about career advice, and you use -- >> so much fun. >> you -- >> no, no, no. okay, so i -- >> no, no, i like the jungle -- >> okay. so in my book the best career advice i've ever gotten was from eric schmidt, and i've talked about it, but never with him on in this stage. [laughter] the way it went is i was thinking about joining google, and google, i loved it, and i was really excited to work with them, but there was this totally non-job. so i didn't have a job, so i had a chart of all my criteria. >> this is, by the way, typical of sheryl. she has all of these detailed analyses. >> right, a chart. google met none of them, except
12:24 pm
i loved the mission, and my other offers had all of them. i really want to take the google offer, but look at the chart. it doesn't meet any of my criteria with. it's unclear what i'll do, i have no goals, i have no responsibility, and eric put his hand on my paper, and he said don't be an idiot. which is excellent career advice -- [laughter] i mean, that alone was worth the price of admissioning to this. but then he said what is the best advice i'd ever heard and i have passed on to now, you know, thousands and hundreds of thousands of people which is he said get on a rocket ship. google is a rocket ship. yes, you're right, we don't though what you're going to do exactly, but if you're offered a seat on a rocket ship, don't ask what seat. because what eric said is that when industries are doing well, everyone in those companies strive, and when industries or companies aren't doing well, people don't do as well. extrapolating advice i give people is go where your skills
12:25 pm
are needed. not everyone can join the high-tech rocket industry, but there are areas of every company, of every industry, different specialties where your skills are more important, and there's a growing need for them. and i think that has been the most important career advice i got, and i'm so grateful. >> thank you. thank you very much. let's return to -- >> the book, yes. >> i want to go back to, i'm still upset about this 77% number. >> i'm glad. i am too. >> well, we agree. [laughter] now, when you talk about child care and you talk about the decision to have children which, obviously, is a complicated decision for professional women, one of the problems that you describe is that for -- unless they're in high-tech and they can own stock options and so forth -- the math doesn't work. and to me, when i look at single moms with, you know, kids and so forth, i can imagine how tough their lives are. if any single component of their life in a day breaks down like the car or whatever, a major
12:26 pm
crisis as for me, you know, well, you get a taxi or what have you. is the solution to that to get salaries up? how do we solve this core problem women feel? i've got to have a family, i'm the prime -- and you point out in the book that women are doing the majority of housework and kids' work for better or worse. how do we solve that problem? the biggest area that i worry about is a single mom who's got all this pressure on her. it's amazing to me that women can get true this. >> no, it's true. so the child care issues exist on both ends of the income spectrum. at the lower end, it's very clear that we need public policy reform and institutional reform. you know, we need jobs that are more flexible where the only developed country in the world that doesn't offer one day of federally-paid-for and mandated maternity leave. something like 40-50% of women in this country and men don't get a single sick day paid, a single one, to take care of themselves or a child or deal
12:27 pm
with paternity or maternity. so we must provide affordable child care and solve some of these basic issues, and nothing else is as important. on the upper end of the spectrum, i think what happens to women is they sometimes do the math wrong. they look at what they're making today. these are college-educated women whose salaries are going to go up to afford the child care they need over time, and they look and they say, well, right now if i pay for child care, i'm barely breaking even. why do it? and i have a friend from my story -- a story from my friend anna who did that clues, was about to drop out and someone said to her, wait a minute, you stay in, you're going to make more money. ten years later her salary covers plenty of child care and all kinds of other things. so we need both the public policy reform and better negotiating for women and women to look ahead at what's coming, not what they have right now. >> you know, and in the book you talk about in this in the context of choice of a husband.
12:28 pm
and you say i truly believe that the single most important career decision that a woman makes is whether she'll have a life partner and who that partner is. you on in -- and let me just quote you -- [laughter] when looking for a life partner, my advice to women is to date all of them; the bad boys, the cool boys, the crazy boys, but do not marry them. [laughter] >> correct. >> okay? the good things that make bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. >> correct. very good advice. [laughter] >> i'm just reading from your book. you must believe that. >> i stand by my dating advice, absolutely. you can date whoever you want. you can date whoever you want. it's marriage or life commitment, however one does that. now, if you're a woman and you're thinking about making that life commitment to a woman, you don't have a problem because two women or two men will split household responsibilities fairly evenly. it's when you get a man and a woman in an ongoing relationship. and everywhere in the world women do the majority of child care and housework. here they do 30-40% more than
12:29 pm
men. so as a couple, a man has one job, and a woman has two. 70% of the mothers are in the work force, and they're in the full-time work force, and they can't leave news they need that money -- >> they need the income. >> that's right. and they're doing two jobs. i know no women who have jobs like mine or any of the women who occupy leadership positions, most of us have husbands and children. and all of us have supportive husbands. all of us. >> and i can actually say having attended the wedding and know dave, indeed, you made the right choice. he is, in fact, perfect. [laughter] now, i wanted to -- as she goes into his perfectness, which is true -- [laughter] but in the book you also describe algorithms that -- sorry, procedures that women can use. [laughter] to a little test. >> that's right. >> you quote, probably unfortunate that you quoted my name, the way she would do dating was to determine if the
12:30 pm
boyfriend would support a career, she would arrange a date and at the last minute reschedule and see how he handled that. the next date would be scheduled and then it would turn out that she had to fly somewhere like sao paulo, and he had to fly there to. did this work? .. and i think it is -- >> and sorry to interrupt you. >> yeah.
12:31 pm
>> we're -- >> you point out that there's a myth that female ceos are fhfa fact not married. the vast majority are not only happily married but have kids and the whole bit. >> like men. the reason the partnership thick is so important. the expectations we have about men and women are deeply held. if you're a man, please raise your hand and you work and have children. please raise your hand if anyone ever said to you, should you be working? don't be shy! [laughter] exactly. if you're a woman, and you work and you have kids, please raise your hands if anyone ever said to you, should you be working? our assumption is that men will do both and women will not. women have to choose. that assumption is wrong, because in fact, most women have to do both. we have an economy that is
12:32 pm
society where most women have to work and most women have children. they are doing both. and all of our narrative is about how women can't and shouldn't do both. that's unfair to women. >> so the the point of which a woman making a decision to have a child. she's now confronted by the limited amount of time off. i argue is too short. i think you agree compared to western europe. women are forced to come back to work with the child care and staying up all night and show up at work. you talk in the book about how eventually the solution is to give up sleep. and so -- >> a bad solution. >> clearly a bad solution. >> and further more, you sort of give advice about life in this. it's sort of another one of these core messages, i think, the way you argue and perhaps projest your list making self. it worked when the kids didn't exist. now you have to accept you --
12:33 pm
right. who says embrace the messiness of life. embrace the messy. be complicated but rejoice in the complicationed. don't be frightened. you can change your mind. i've had four careers and three husbands. [laughter] so fhfa particular case, you ultimately in the book say under the enormous pressure of this. you are running the extraordinary structure at google. you decide to melter your time. you had to give up something. did you give up organization? what performance -- you managed to sort of full off. how did you do it? >> i think what happened is funny, i was in europe two weeks ago. a man said you want to hire the most efficient person hire a mother. she said i'm going take this job. i'm going to work eight to 3:00 and i'm going to be the most
12:34 pm
productive copy editor. it was smsh you could measure. she is. i thought i was relatively efficient before i had children. i wasn't. >> you were really efficient. [laughter] once i had children ever minute became precious. when it became precious for me and other people. my tolerance for unnecessary meetings which was never that high went way down. i think what is happening to womb working women is working mothers is the following: we compare ourselves unfavorably on both sides of the ledger. we compare ourselves to our peer at work, largely men who have fewer home responsibilities than we do and we fall short. it's easier for them to take the trip and stay later. then we compare ourselves at home to the women who are at home full-time and full short there. as a working mother you can spend your entire life feeling bad. when you dpornt, people will do it for you. i have a story any book about dropping my son off at local the public school we go to.
12:35 pm
i dropped him off on saint patrick's day wearing his favorite blue t-shirt and a woman says it's saint patrick's day. he's supposed to be wearing green. i think really? really? i'm lucky he has a t-shirt. now this would never happen to my husband. if any husband dropped my son wearing the t-shirt the woman would say you're a wonderful father for driving your son to school today. i'm a woman so of course it didn't happen to me. i did what everyone would did. i spent my entire day worrying about it. should i drive to target buy a green t-shirt. will i be the annoying mom? >> and the man would have forgotten the transaction about four minutes after. [laughter] >> half way through the episode of panic i call thed my husband and i explained how everyone has a green t-shirt and our son will never go to college because he didn't have a green t-shirt and
12:36 pm
it will be my fault because i'm a working woman. and my husband laughed and said you know what? our son learned something so important today, he learned he doesn't have to be like everyone else. and that is the difference because my husband and i with do about the same with our children. and i feel guilty all the time. even having written a book telling everyone not to feel guilty. and my husband thinks he's a hero. [laughter] a hero. a hero of blue t-shirts. and the difference is about letting ourselves off the hook. most of the things we do we do 80% of them -- >> and the way i express that redefine the situation you're in to be success. that's what your husband does. >> success at 80% or doing the best you can. >> one of the things you talked about when was news to me. primary care giving expectations
12:37 pm
working mothers have gone up. we somehow think that people are spending less time with their kids but in fact over the last couple of decades the number has gone up by 60%. >> it's an important fight for the other side of the ledger. working women, working mothers but all of us. expectations are going up on both sides due to the wonderful technology erick and others have built. people work longer hours. my mother said work in my generation was 9:00 to 5:00 there was no android. you couldn't be bothered on the weekends. we work longer hours. mothering has gone through the same expectations. if you think about parenting. my mother was a stay at home mother, full-time. we didn't have play date. she didn't arrange a single play date. we road our bicycle down the block and played. and so it's called intensive mothering. the data shows that a full-time working --
12:38 pm
full-time mother working outside the home today spends many hours engaged in direct child interaction as a non-working mother in the '70s. it's an amazing thing to understand. when i think about that -- that's a pretty hopeful statement. >> absolutely. >> the generation of kids are going to be pretty good. >> when i figured out i was spending as much real time with my children working full-time as my mother did we actually talked about it. it turned out to be true. boy, was that a relief. and the expectations of full-time and more than full-time work and this intensive mothering, they're hitting women. it's not possible to do both of those. >> and i want to finish up and get to your questions. i have a couple of more questions. you talk in the book a little bit about how women treat other women. and you also -- when you went to facebook you -- let's call it increased scrutiny because you were seen enultimately truthly someone as
12:39 pm
a significant power force in the industry overall. marissa was talented has gone through this -- yahoo!. we told her to stay at google too. [laughter] >> you train us all to do well. >> they don't listen to me at all. [laughter] >> and to me you have a quote in here from madeline albright. there's a special place in hell for women who don't help other women. what is sort of the message here? what do you want women and presumably men who are supporting women to do based on this set of criticism? >> yeah. i think look, there's a lot in the work force and women not helping other women. some is true, particularly historically. that in a world where only one woman was going get to the top, and only one woman, then it made sense those women were super competitive. i don't think it's true anymore. every company wants more women not less. the other thing that is
12:40 pm
happening we have different expectations for men and women at work. if a man is asked for a favor at work, everyone are supergrateful. it what a great guy. he doesn't face a penalty if didn't doing it. if a woman doesn't do it she faces real penalties. and if she does it no one is particularly grateful. so part of what is happening women have been and sometimes still are legitimately men to other women because they feel competitive. i think a competitiveness that is rooted in our own insecurity. we need to face it and support each other. some is different expectations. i think the observation is turns out we're 50% of the population. >> shocking. >> right. and if we work together, if there are no more mommy wars. things change. i have been working with the folks who run an important mommy blogger site. bringing women who work at home and in the work force together. i published ours.
12:41 pm
letters to thank our mothers. we're all doing it. some are beautiful. and women need support each other because when i think about the women at home i can either feel insecure because i don't feel like i'm as good as a mother or grateful for everything they're doing at my kid's school. and i think the same thing for mothers looking at mothers like me working. it we can feel better about ourselves and stop beating ourselves up so much. question also be more generous to each other. >> let's talk a little bit about the book and the book tour and the reviews and so forth. with the typical courage you have, you managed to launch in to it at full blast. and number one on the best seller list for the last two months. likely to be at number one for many months to come, i think. it's essentially unleashed a global conversation. it's incredibly important. let's start by asking, what is
12:42 pm
the stupidest criticism you have ever heard of you and your book? [laughter] >> the stupiddist one? >> no one has criticized my book. everyone loves my book. [laughter] i think that the criticism that i don't think is that thoughtful is saying that i don't believe that other things need to change other than internally. the criticism not grounded is i'm blaming women. if you read my book it's hard to decide i'm blaming women. >> those are people who didn't read the book at all. >> i'm clear we need institutional policy to change. i do a lot to explain why we are holding ourselves back. encouraging women is not the psalm thing as -- i think that is one that is -- >> sort of -- >> yeah. >> so then the sexual appeals
12:43 pm
-- what is the most sophisticated criticism? what is the criticism been the most accurate that you actually said no that person is pretty smart. they read the book and understood either missed that or right or something i need to explore more. >> yeah. the best criticism of my book. it's one i struggled with a lot. is that it's sophisticated is that in trying to change stereotypes i am embracing those stereotypes. so, for example, i tell women in that book to smile and say we and justify their ask for raises. that is embracing a stereotype. i'm acknowledging you will be more successful getting a raise if you smile, say we. i don't want to embrace a stereotype to change. i struggled so much in the book. i decided that i'm pretty much a pragmatist. the world is what it is.
12:44 pm
if more women justify races, become ceo. then people will ascribe leadership to women and the next generation won't have to smile and say we. >> so this is sort of feminism 2.0. feminism 1.0 was a specific view, i think largely a correct one that women need to be empowered and treated the same. feminism 2.0 there's a way to do it which gets you to power. >> what happened for me. i struggled because of the criticism. i struggled with giving that advice on negotiating. i decided the following: i decided when i negotiate and you were the one of the people who taught me how. you go to the room you win or lose before you go to the room. it's how much you understand about the other side. and so i decided that empowering women to understand the stereotype and use them to their advantage was part of preparing well for a negotiation in an unfair world. but it is still hard for me when i give that advice.
12:45 pm
it's fair criticism. >> let's ask some of the audience questions. how do you feel about the book's reception. did your point really get across? do people really understand it? >> so erick makes an amazing point in the book which was that revolutions are hard to -- easier to start to and so i don't know if there is a revolution. but i wanted people to notice that women were stagnating to understand the stereotypes that are holding us back. and men and women to try to change them. i've been -- look, if you're a business person and write a book. the risk is no one will read or care. i'm gratified that so many people have read it and it's doing so well. it's been eight weeks. and the real question is, what happens now? does anyone remember that with too many women are called aggressive two months from now, two years from now, 20 years from now. my book can only do so much.
12:46 pm
to try to help women all of us come together. we hope you join us. we're this close to 175,000 participates. to you go on facebook and like us. we're there. but we want men and women to -- it's unclear what happens from here. and this is going to take some more voices. men and women, men as well trying to change the stereotype. >> another question. how do you respond to the critical feedback in the book that the movement has received. has it changed anything about your approach? have you move -- modified based on the exception? the against and so forth? >> i don't think there's anyone said about my book i didn't try to address in my book. so i think what people said wasn't surprising. the volume, that's positively a negative. completely shocked me. you know, -- >> but your book is a level talk
12:47 pm
abouts that. you point that women face greater scrutiny. you and your book face scrutiny. >> that's right. >> it's called recryings. >> yeah. [laughter] i think what try to do get the -- i set it up with debby and others as a book but a community. we did it in an open way. the community westbound iexists on the website. and the the community exists on facebook. by the nature of the community created by the community. one of the things we're helping do is set up circles. usually women that are starting all over. it's exciting to see. and a circle is whatever people want to be. we envision them probably as women, who were meeting, you know, maybe they were the same industry or a different industry. and they would meet once a month and support each other. i heard today there are a group of circles being started by
12:48 pm
fathers and daughters. they are starting circles. never thought of that. brilliant. love those fathers. those daughters are so lucky. we created a platform we put out idea and people are running with them. we don't control. it. your book is clear that the internet is the first thing we invented and don't control. >> people will go and we will follow and try to support. >> another question. what was a pivotal transition event or moment in the career who defined who you roar what you did with your career? was it something you anticipated or did it occur randomly? >> so many of them. certainly joining google with you. understanding the mission and how important the mission was to me. and what was doing. whenner rick recruited me to
12:49 pm
google. an of our initial conversations what google was doing in the world. you kept saying -- >> sorry to interrupt you. >> wait. did. >> one of the simple secrets to motivating people give them the mission to change the world and they'll work for you hard. >> that's right. and so when erick and i were first time at google. he was announced as chairman. you were about to be ceo but the world didn't know. he kept saying look what google is doing in the world. look what google is doing. my createst hope is all of those women who have gotten raises. and those daughters whose fathers are having monthly meetings with them to give them the self-confidence to believe they can do anything. >> another question. would you have had the same success with women mentors as male mentors? and the corollary question, how do you make yourself available as mentor, and will you be my mentor? [laughter] this person hasn't read the book. i say one of the worst questions
12:50 pm
you can ask anyone is will you be my mentor? it's interesting. i only worked for men. erick is among them. i've had a couple of female mentors. mainly men. i worked for men. one of the point i make in the book if we rely on only women to mentor women we will never succeed there aren't enough women at the top. and there are unspoken things that are holding us back from mentoring women. so a man and a man in a room having a meeting alone or maybe at the bar having a drink looks like businessmen or iting. a man and a women meeting alone or having a drink looks like an older man and a younger woman. meeting alone butlet be clear. if we're talking about getting more women in to positions of power, you know, 86% of the people in power are men. and they're older than the women who are trying to get there. it's all about not just making it safe but cheering on men to spend time alone with women.
12:51 pm
>> in fact you tell the bob story. a friend of mine sort of running half the city of new york says that he treats men and women equally. he has breakfast and lunches but not dinners. >> i didn't know him but wrote the story. i have met since. >> fantastic guy. >> 15 years he announced one day he had daughters he didn't feel comfortable having dinner with women. he would have no dinners. and they -- >> he had dinner with his family. [laughter] yeah but no dinners at work. he was basically saying i understand this bias. no one wants to talk about and i'm making it e qualm. let's make it equal. some men -- he was asked will you have dinner alone with women? he's ceo of american express. he said absolutely. it's part of my job. some will say yes. some will say no. let's make it equal. >> subtle biases we need to
12:52 pm
overcome. >> yeah. and we may have some more questions in the audience. maybe somebody could -- additional questions you have. let's get them to carol. what tips do you have for women and men who have taken time off and finding it tough to get back to the workplace? >> yeah, the issue of reentry is big one. it's usual lay issue for women because they are the ones more likely to take time off. with the exception it's been an issue for men as well. my best tips are again looking for areas where your skills are needed and being adaptable at skills. i think silicon valley and you in particular. we set a good example for the country in this. a lot of people hire based on experience. and silicon valley hires based on skill finance you hire based only on experience as industries change experience is less relevant. if you hire based on skills, you can then adapt.
12:53 pm
i think other industries should look to silicon valley which has done well by basically adopting that. it will help a lot of people get back to the work force. >> one of the other ways to promote women's interest in getting promoted. the company is to have a growing economy. and there's lot and lots ways. the simplest way in my view to solve the problem is have hiring going on. just a essential recession. >> right. >> it's been different to get hiring going orphan -- on and so forth. >> it's a problem. we struggling with two public policy issues in this country. they are directly related. i think your point is we should make the whole economy a rocket ship and there's plenty of seats. >> revenue solves all known problems. first principle of a business. >> he staid for a long time. he would say we want cash. cash. [laughter] >> cash in the bank. >> cash in the bank. not hype threat cat cash but in the bank. >> we have a big question facing
12:54 pm
our country. which is our economy going grow at the same rate it has grown historically? and the answer we're providing is no. the reason it's no we do not have the work force we need to grow our economy quickly enough. there are only two answers to this. education and immigration. we do not educate our children close to where other countries where educating. you look at the computer scientists and you are i are seeing it coming out of indian yean and china every day there where more and better educate. we from graduating 11% of our kids not being able to read. and immigration a lot of the great companies of silicon valley. the companies that are celebrated were built on immigrants. you know, facebook we opened -- >> indeed. there's a group that we're trying to get it done. and we may break that log jam. in the spirit of the certain audience question.
12:55 pm
have you had much response from washington? what efforts in the work for policy change? you are setting out an agenda. is anybody listening or ignoring you as usual. >> i think people are listen. i think the private moves faster thant public. the fastest change we have seen people in companies and individual women and men. reseeing women start circles all over. men and fathers start circles. see a lot of engagement. a lot of people asking for raises. men, like, which is great. please, keep telling everyone. i want you all to have raises. on the corporate sector, you know, men like john chambers, he saw me speak. assigned the book to the top 400 people and said i thought i was good at this. we're going to get better. and he stood on a stage. i joined him and he said the only way to be the best company in the world have the best. women are 50% of the population.
12:56 pm
warren buffet talked about women this year and talked about women as competitive advantage. i want men and women but men running companies to invest in women not to be nice but because it's their bottom line. >> the other argument in favor of investing women if we face the global competitive -- asia continues to discriminate against half the work force. it's clear you need all of your athletes in play in order to compete. the globalization argument favors your argument for women. >> that's right. there's studies saying economic growth has been caused by women entering the work force. if we want the economic growth we have to continue to do that. >> my favorite question so far, what made you so brave as to call erick smith for a job? what is your mother and dad affirming you positivively as a child or chastise and correct you all the time? [laughter] >> i would say both. >> that's what the question
12:57 pm
says. i'm not making it up. >> it's mother's day we are talking about our parenting. i think my participant were incredibly encouraging. incredibly. you can do anything your brother and and sister can do anything. but they weren't oh, you know, go sit and ice have if i was in college and drank a little my dad said the best thing for a good hang over is a run. out of bed on the street. my parents were definitelily, you know, go out and do a type of parent but incredibly supportive. >> many political problems seem to be driven by old men in policy positions. [laughter] climate, health, gun control, environment,..., women tend to have different view. i'm passionate about getting women in to politics. the book is arguing for more women in positions of power.
12:58 pm
and positions of government are really important. i happen to be in london a few weeks ago when -- and she was elected 34 years ago. she was the only female head of government in the world when elected. fast forward 34 years, there are 17. there are hundreds of countries and that's just not good enough. i believe that if we had more women in politics we would have less war. >> i agree with that. [applause] >> so following up, question, from the audience. do you think it's hillary clinton's time to lean in and women the presidency? [laughter] that's what the question is. [applause] >> yes. i want hillary to run. i told her. i'll tell you. one of the reasons i wrote "lean in" my daughter we brought home a song for president's day. we played the song and she
12:59 pm
listened and said, mommy, why are they all boys? and i think hillary to be the first female present. -- i hope she does it but i hope it's not too long before another. do you think an increase in female entrepreneurship could solve the issue of women not receiving promotion by giving women the power to make decisions? >> yes. i believe there is strongly that women in leadership positions helps not just the women but all women. companies with more women in senior roles have better workplace policies for women. and so yes, we need more women in the big companies and congress and more women entrepreneurs. we have a lot of female entrepreneurs in silicon valley. we don't have nearly as many as men. they don't get funding at the same level. interestingly, if you look at the return there is a recent study done that the return on investing in a female
1:00 pm
entrepreneur is higher. and that they ask for the money they need not the money they might need. and so we need more female entrepreneurs. we need to ask for more funding and need to get it. >> and more cash efficient. >> and more cash efficient. >> excellent. you built the hiring machine, as i describe it at google which was fantastic. your legacy in the company i see every day. i'm sure you feel the same way about facebook. i know, you did the same thing at facebook and built quite the organization. one of the question, what do you look for when you're hiring someone. how do you actually make these decisions? >> the most important i look for when i hire someone. i think i learned it from you is skills. not experience. experience is great. if you can get the perfect skill base and the right experience that's great. our industry changes so quickly almost none of us have done anything we do now before. it's all new. you have to have skills. i ask people how they would
1:01 pm
handle specific situation and i'm looking for flexibility and looking for the skills they can adapt. one of the things we look for is flexibility. we did it one summer. a lot more than medicare a students they were asking about their career path. the worse question you can ask at google is the career path. it was good advice. you were saying we want you to be flexible. >> the way i would describe is it when people call me up and say i'm a vp now and i need to be senior vice president or chief operating officer in your company and i would say, click. it's not how we operate. we want you to join our cause. what you believe and what we're doing. and you will do just fine nap advice worked well for the people who managed to not screw up. ..
1:02 pm
as much as the opportunity to impact. >> another question. you shifted to a new company to get a better role. does it take to get that new opportunity? >> the data says that for women it often does, but not always. for our negotiating we've talked about. as we educate yourself on the
1:03 pm
biases, we can change that. i don't think it takes moving on. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. i think it takes solving problems. the right way to approach her career is to say what problem can i solve? one of my favorite hiring stories. i just joined facebook. she joined me and said i think i want to work with your facebook. so i thought about calling you in telling it that things are good at and the things i like to do, but i figure everyone's doing that, so instead i want to know, what is your biggest problem and can i solve that? >> my jaw hit the floor. no one says that. i biggest problem is recruiting because i didn't have anyone running recruiting. you can solve it. she came in a nashua adult human resource da vinci's magnet that because she's trying to solve all the problems, not hers. >> this is a great question. pay attention to this question. do you think that part of gender bias behavior, men and women may
1:04 pm
be genetic as well as social? >> it is such a profound question. i try to be really clear on this in the book he or i do not think men and women do not have genetic differences. >> too many negatives. >> to negatives is never good. i have a son and a daughter. my son will take any joy and hit the other toy and my daughter will take to and make their case. [laughter] there are differences. >> and you are trying to solve these by first demand -- >> yeah, but here's what we know. i believe they're a genetic differences between boys and growth and mad women. i don't believe leadership is one of them. leadership can have typically male traits, typically females get the best leaders have both. the best leaders have both. so we can associate with his femininity with leadership. as much as we can associate masculinity with nurturing.
1:05 pm
>> another one of these interesting unloader questions. what is your opinion about a woman's physical appearance in the workplace and how it can help or hurt her career? >> you know, the physical appearance one is the real issue. it is much more at an issue women that are meant. you now, i used to tell women that google to dress appropriately. dress for success. by boz at the time caught up on my dress for success talk. we would hire these amazingly smart women from great places with great skills and, you know, sometimes they look like they were going to a nightclub. that wasn't going to help the network. it is the same advice. i didn't like telling them, maybe you should dress a little more -- a silicon valley. i was suggesting genes, not shorts, right? but i actually thought presenting themselves as serious professionals commotion the silicon valley area can meet
1:06 pm
genes was pretty important. i don't overly focused on it. i'm not someone who's very into fashion or close in any way shape or form. presenting ourselves appropriately, the same way we walk in and get something done. >> how do you get more women into real and perceived places of power such as public company boards of directors? should we do what some european governments are doing and mandate a certain percentage of women report members? >> said the issue of quotas is a very raging debate. not really particularly in europe. i think the issue is each country has to pick what it wants to do. i am not arguing for quotas for corporate boards in the united states because i don't think it's the most important invention and for us right now. the reason i don't think it's the most important is because if you look at countries that put a man such as norway and from scandinavian countries, it hasn't moved any other numbers.
1:07 pm
so if you look at norway, they put in a lot in 2006 that require quotas for women on corporate boards. they're up to 40% and hasn't moved any other numbers. having both coming in now about what we really want to do is move the numbers all the way throughout two operating jobs for ceos. she think i would miss the numbers throughout, not just in one place? >> another question from the audience. how do you react to external signals goals such as you are too aggressive at work. how do you handle that? how you behave? the most important thing "lean in" is trying to do. i'm trying to help it be easier for people to address that. i notice that jill abramson, who i know, a friend of mine, a talented women, editor of "the new york times" had an article written about her, and a whole bunch of other people row, wait a second, she's saying she's too aggressive. that happens to women, not men.
1:08 pm
>> said the ability for the credit to krauser is the response mitigated to some degree. >> i am hoping "lean in" and things people are doing help to change that. before you start from scratch and they appreciated. what are the ways into aggressive? you know, we are getting help. training managers is so important. there's a man who works for me at facebook is started this conversation by saying i didn't read your book. which is a little weird if you work for me, wouldn't you at least pretend you read my book? [laughter] is that i haven't read your book, but i have listened to you for the last five years and they listen to what you say. we just did our performance fees and he got feedback that a woman who worked for him was too aggressive. rather than write down too aggressive, he went back to the people who gave the feedback instead what did she do this too aggressive? and the answer and then he said, if a man had done this exact
1:09 pm
same thing, which are thought it was too aggressive? they said no. the best thing we can do is i want men to read my book and engage in this. i want the people in power to understand that. >> the core messages men have to sort of police? >> women will be a lot to say there's a lot of data that says i want to ask you specifically. the best thing with the bachus never be too defensive. mena ran, we all know you want them to be open to it so you continue to give it to them. give them feedback, but let's say let's talk about this. to make it specific? i think it's appropriate to bring up gender and family duty to change my behavior. i'm grateful for feedback, but let's also talk about if a man had done the same things, would he have been too aggressive? >> let's do a couple more and will finish out. "lean in" gives lots of practical advice for internal
1:10 pm
issues. what do we do to solve the external issues, which is referring largely to public policy and institutional issues. >> there's a lot we can do. we can elect my women. i also think we can run those companies and change the policies ourselves. the book starts with the story that happened at google. i was pregnant, very pregnant. they told me that project whale was named after me. [laughter] is actually very fair comment. one day i was late for a meeting and i had to park far away and i was really sick because they try to run that doesn't work. i talked to my husband and he said bursa pregnancy parking? i'd never heard of pregnancy parking. he sold the yahoo! had it in front of every building. immersed myself into the office. he was doing yoga and i said
1:11 pm
sergey and said when he pregnancy parking. he looked up at all of me and said we sure do. [laughter] but what he said was i never thought of it before. let's do it immediately. i'd never thought about it before. the pregnancy parking is still there. my point is if we get more women into these jobs, we will make those changes. >> in the book you said you have to ask in its okay to ask. >> i felt more comfortable asking because i was senior. i was running a good chunk of the company. a lot of other pregnant women wanted pregnancy parking, but they weren't in a position to march into sergey's office in an rock. actually sergey is so nice he would've said the same thing. but they wouldn't have the self-confidence. but every senior in my .. is
1:12 pm
that we need all the institutional reforms, but one of the best ways of getting at is the women in this audience. go run these companies. put in pregnancy parking. pay women equally. hope when they negotiate. train your managers not to tell women they are too aggressive. women can be a huge part of the answer here. >> final question from the audience. are you carrying up for political run in 2016 to help shape some of the policy discussion to speak about and if so, which offers? >> i'm not running for office in 2016. >> again, i am rooting for hillary for that job. i am not running for office, but i think more women need to run and more women need to run companies. i am happy at this vote. i love the influence facebook has on the world. i want to help more women get into those positions.
1:13 pm
>> this has any tree for me for reasons you all don't know. in 2006, cheryl and i were chatting and we thought it would be really fun to have distinguished people come by and talk in the company. so in her typical organized way, she put together a speaker series, which i was fortunate enough to be the interviewer for. in all those years, i never had a chance to interview cheryl at google. i did in fact by virtue of your initiative will end up interviewing extraordinarily famous people, including the united states. this has been an amazing, amazing personal experience. i thought it would be interesting if maybe you could read a little bit of your boat. you choose the length in the area to give people a sense. i hope you all understand the unique and extraordinary leadership that cheryl represents. if all of us get a meal style.
1:14 pm
>> i want to end by thanking eric for everything he's done for my career and everything you've done for us. silicon valley -- this is interesting. i haven't read for my book ever actually. >> you didn't do your own audio book? >> i did not. >> did you choose the person? >> yes, she's fabulous. >> if you don't like rented books or electronic works, by the audio book. >> i'm going to read a little bit at the end. i've written this book to encourage women to dream big, forge a path through the obstacles and achieve their full potential. i am hoping that each woman was that her uncle and reach for them with gusto. i'm hoping that each man will do his part to support women in the workplace and in the home also with gusto. as we start using talents of higher population, institutions will be my project is, homes will be happier in the children growing up in these homes will no longer be held back by narrow
1:15 pm
stereotypes. critics have scoffed at me for trusting that once women are empowered they will help one another. since that is not always been the case, i'm willing to take that bet. the first wave of women who ascended to leadership positions are few and far between and to survive, many focused more on fitting in and helping others. the current wave of female leadership is increasingly willing to speak out. the more women obtain positions of power, the less pressure there will be to conform to the more they will do for other women. research are to suggest that companies with more women in leadership roles have better worklife policies, smaller gender gaps in executive compensation and more women that mid-level management. the hard work of generations before us means that equality is within reach. we can close the leadership gap now. every individual success can make success a little easier for the next. we can do this


info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on