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tv   Book TV  CSPAN  November 29, 2014 11:00pm-1:01am EST

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>> the. >> thanks for helping to
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break here about here this evening and these two books but also i feel compelled to make an apology to begin with when the former west german leader about four decades ago involvement was overcome with great of -- of grief when germany did to poland they apologize to the polish people not to apologize to the indigenous people who for occupied southern california gore feel compelled to apologize to people of african descent who were murdered in enslaved old clothes that were subjected to atrocities and deprivations. at the end of the day those who still believe the
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process that led to genocide and enslavement was for humanity. it is unsurprising that given that so many people feel it is justifiable and worthwhile to have that genocidal incident that we have reactionary's sentiment even for what happened last tuesday i think black scholars could have written a book like this on behalf of black scholars who should have done this decades ago and i hope you'll accept my apology for the thousands of the millions god who have suffered not the least because of the atrocities
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committed to the united states of america head al let me move on to a first of all, talk about this book. this is the book that will tell a news story about the origins of the united states of america and speaks to cultures about the united states of america and its creation and argues the creation was not a great leap forward for community. i cannot deny a they're not those to benefited from accretion. the creation but proving to the african slave trade
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ousting those from great britain. britain has ousted to the abolition of slavery as a paragon of libri -- of democracy. and one of the reasons is because of the manic energy. and with that african slave trade to brazil is one of the many reasons more than in the other country because of the manic energy of the slave traders of the 30's and four days calling all
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across the atlantic to brazil. and those that formed the united states of america leading to the declaration of independence in 1776 that they rebelled against british rule because they suspected it was moving to abolition of slavery that would jeopardize the fortune a founding fathers with patrick henry and james madison. as a footnote after the formation of the united states of america there were slave owners. the short the says is from
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london england to send the enslaved african man back to north america. hasn't the jury ruled did anybody see that? okay. the judge ruled that slavery would not be attained even though it did not speak the case to the colonies did not taken oracle said it would form a precedent to be applied to the north american colony and its -- colonies to jeopardize its portion benghazi explained
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at length and this book with good reason for the rebels to believe thereby jeopardize the many fortunes for the african slave trade. so then day is the store thesis but the longer explanation of that glorious revolution in 1888 that the rising merchant class up against the monarchy to the wake of the king this led to
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the erosion of the african company that was in charge of the african slave trade. and there is the id deregulation but those that allow to into the african slave trade that they do with a profusion. and then descend upon west africa with the manic energy of crazed beasts. tracking these across sea-land tech because as you may know the middle of the 18th-century that caribbean was more valuable and then
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sugar was not only used to sweeten t but believe better not that jamaica and antigua and barbados in particular were the major sites for profitability. now that deregulation and the onset of that era. lead to predictable results. you may know that african slave trade is most profitable and why it has been so difficult to reach the aftermath that still haunts us. that is to say that some of
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the profits of these voyages said you could invest $1 to get 17 back. i am sure you have found some good sell their firstborn child. so with the onset of free trade with the african slave trade you have a tremendous increase in the number of africans. this leads to the caribbean historians with they talk about of the take off of this system of capitalism
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that the african slave trade was the backbone of this system that is to say tremendous wealth was created. not only in terms of the africans but it led to the allied industry. because as i detail shortly you need insurance policies to compensate slave traders but to finance the african slave trade and and then the carolinas with a at the center the authorities found
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that they have to build infrastructure and roads and bridges to get demolition there the of course, building roads and bridges it is also for the takeoff. so we see the african slave trade forms the foundation for this system of capitalism and as a footnote with the reparations act so what i am talking about provides further roughen now -- rationale for the centuries of free labor. deal may question is for what it should be used for. so recapitulate but there is
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another consequence. and as you may know or confirm to be manacle and handcuffed to work for free under a white supremacist or racist particularly it in the caribbean where the numbers and ratios but the al number those europeans 20 / one so it creates of favorable condition. and down to end tiwa which often times leads the slave masters to make them a great track from the caribbean to
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the mainland. and also leads to a phenomenon whereby they escape their jurisdiction of the british to set up and there is the theater that tomato would escape just as we know from 1791 through 18 '04 the ancient evolution occurred to escape the our jurisdiction to set up their own system. as many of you may know to liquidate that slave owning class.
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it was not beyond the realm of possibility been in the middle of the 17th century that the spanish were ousted from jamaica because the africans had decided it was time for them to go. then they decided it was time for the british to go. so then you have the slave masters deciding to cut their losses -- losses. if you are familiar red south african history that may resonate because there is a parallel between the two. but in any case after making the great track with the
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slave masters and the slave owners are preceded by a revolt you know, by 70 and 39 perhaps the bloodiest revolt were the africanas rose up against the europeans because florida was controlled by the spanish. and doesn't shine state of what it is today. sova to break up the question of spain is the important part of the story. the spanish had begun to are forever, they had embarked
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that diverged from that of the british. but when the spanish began to warm africans, i will just tell you i don't necessarily prescribed to this thesis but i will repeat it in any case. felt they had to are they ever kids because of religious reasons -- reasons because of the cold war taking place between catholic madrid and londoners felt because the spanish had so many men that they had no choice but to arm africa. this was putting competitive
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pressure to do the same particularly when britain began to fight the spanish over control on the northern coast of south america and crossed cartagena via then they were in a manner stayed -- a stinging defeat to chase the redcoats from the shore at a time when the sellers of north america were reluctant to fight on behalf of the british and south america because they had to engage in then nasty business because the time was better spent doing that for the colonial conquest. obviously this inflamed the
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ire of london and i should also mention another point as well to the rivalry between spain and britain and that is as you definitely know as a british possession called another earliest colonial conquest. but many were perceived not to be reliable as well. so some of the leaders were irish because they defected to the other side. to fight the spanish. you may have of the
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referendum of scotland a few weeks ago they were threatening to leave the united kingdom and italy became part of it in 17 '07 in the midst of our story. the scottish were perceived as being politically unreliable five london helping to put pressure on london to our africans nettle the with the perceived reliability but also because spadefoots competitive pressure to do the same so they can fight the spanish more competitively. says something that north american settlers that they thought to them is to say
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they felt africanas should not be harmed but to pick the wealth for the slaveholders so they see that deepening rift between that settler class between the mainland and london and the elites in britain on the other hand,. but what happens of course, is one of the turning points in history is a conflict leading to the increase of eight african slave trade and speaking what is referred to as 1776 where britain decides to eliminate the competitive
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pressure. set out to reference about the rebellion that hiv-2 overthrow sliver in-house and there is evidence to suggest to our effort jim's from spanish florida had come across the border. you should also know the africans of south carolina is a country that invested in warfare with the civil war in angola only concluded with united states backing a terrorist against the regime.
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but many spoke portuguese and many were catholic. there was a commonality with chevrotains from the carolinas. so brigid will try to eliminate the french threat in canada because there has been those from new york city and the fingerprints of the spanish cuban africans that they were collaborating with the french in quebec against the british. so the seven year war is
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successful to erode if not eliminate and the turning point the british oust the french but of course, we know it still remains that there is a history yet to be written about a collaboration between the africans and quebec. but by eliminating the dual threats not only has more problems for itself. this is the narrative adds validity that's the british goes to the settlers to save the eliminated this on your
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behalf. so the repeat trips think the tax money goes to the of 1 percent. so that is similar to the market of the devil. it deepens the rift between the crown to -- the crown and the run-up through 70 and 76 because of the growth of the abolition in london that the british might decide to cut the deal. that is what they believe
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because when people decide to revolt if you want to come across constituted authority that is said to be against though lot. so ask yourself what would make these slave owners that are filthy rich revolt against authority to become traitors to the crown? and passed to be something tyrannosaur extraordinary. the prospect of slavery being abolished or worse case scenario with one dead and cutting a deal been the case of colonial virginia
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with the 13 colonies. and he was under threat by the sellers talked about what they did circa 1863. and rose up against washington d.c.. so that in order to preserve the devastates of america he had to free the slaves. with its benevolence even though there were like us to believe that. and likewise the lord was also moved to pragmatism
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against the sellers to revolt against constituted authority to rise up as one and overthrow british rule for the united states of america. though i say my book on the shelf it is the sequel because i talk about how after they establish the united states of america the africans online with the british against the ninth -- a united states of america in the world war of 1812. you have britain set
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washington d.c. on fire with an early form of preparation plundered the white house sending james madison and his gal dolly fleeing into the st. [laughter] one step ahead of the africans in the redcoats pursuing them and put that event with regard to the 200th anniversary. with that can get more discussion. but and in 1807 is the anniversary that tony blair
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and the prime minister and the queen of these people he would have thought there would be an official ceremony marking the end of the african slave trade. should we infer people were not happy? [laughter] i don't know. but to tell the story to understand how slavery was involved this is part of the take away to understand how slavery was abolished or jim crow to make progress is in the future you have to understand what is happening
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in the world that the defacto alliance between a the abolitionist britain and the slave population of africa. britain wanted to reclaim its territory. but part of the take away is that if you understand jim crow the system that follows at with the 1954 the supreme court said it is constitutional.
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but the international situation change. and then when people were treated so horribly this created a gimmick that led to the erosion of jim crow. if you want to understand how we could survive those adverse consequences in light of these elections that took place the last tuesday read not only have to pay attention to the concept we should try to understand what is going on in the world for the international community.
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but surveying the press the wednesday after what caught my eye was because of michael brown thus laying teenager left in the streets like dead dog after shot down by the police authorities that the parents are on their way to geneva to raise its a question of police killing with united nations. [applause] i am from st. louis . i don't know who is briefing the parents. they have a good person because that was a wise move on there part.
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it is a history not only of struggling here but to gain leverage to bring their reactionaries in washington d.c.. so now i will move from this book to this book. this is a book that deals with the relationship in the context of slavery and jim crow from the middle of the 18th century the part of the thesis is if you want to a understand the cuban revolution, let me back up. spade ruled cuba from the
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early 1500's up through 8898. and tried to implant the kinds of militant jim-crow from the north american mainland but those that had obtained on the island of cuba was not a kitten to the system in north america hired made reference to the fact freed negro population was a certain structure but when the party's move than it was a long though winds of the mainland. to make a long story short part of the argument to
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understand the cuban revolution you have to understand the revulsion for the of militants for jim crow the u.s. authorities attempted to implant the pond the island which did not go down very well. and the system could not digested adequately. so they did not digest that ferocious as part of that competition because the spanish terms of the
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africans but you should also know that spain and france collaborated with the of rebels against british rule. so one of the most powerful military is of the planet. so all of this is the 20th century foot and that the cubans from moscow or angola should be receiving assistance from the cubans
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but they should not be receiving assistance from the spanish and the french. so as was the tendency and have its for british rule repaid the spanish with the new film of the colony to say a lot of historians made of living have u.s. help to aid mexico that was to exemplify that trent but basically they did that to descend on mexico which they
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did where we're now sitting. [laughter] and you could say with latin america this interested progressive u.s. government to the rebels or would lead america but with relations with cuba is the fact after they establish the united states of america they replace the spanish. but then with slave trade is the nation's business.
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and a one-man show to drag across the lamp tech the wesley traders are in the forefront of a slave trade to cuba but not only that. texas was the independent country because it moved has of president of african descent. then moved to the abolition. and it was a precursor to the confederate states of america.
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and they started the loadstar republic the hallmark is the slave trade. and with jack johnson the heavyweight champion of the world. the also barry white. [laughter] living in los angeles for quite awhile. but the lone star flag can be found off the coast of brazil but texas is under so much pressure so they
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decided to join united states of america so to protect themselves at a furious and anchor. in any case you should though with the great american abolitionist as objecting to u.s. involvement and objecting to the fact of the coffee plantation the sugar plantation that disproportionately controls by u.s. citizens martin delaney that i considered so
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at the center of a story but only with their counterparts did in cuba but also to to put forward how cuba is the hope of america and for those of you that follow what is going on with west africa that authorities have outstripped the nation's with that epidemiologist and physicians and nurses and medics to be on the front lines in terms of combating the ebola at it -- epidemic to outstrip many larger nations not to mention the european nations cetera bartley is responsible for the system because of their
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cruel and brutal exploitation so a few of gatt and though love -- if you look at it ndola that came there that would defeat them decisively. [applause] yes. to set the stage five only to oust the apartheid the third days of for the liberation of the 1990's of namibia one of the most modern nations on the african continent with though made of population of 3 million but as the infrastructure but also
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because of the cuban military it made them more susceptible to listening to use wheat reason because there was the story that is the apartheid authorities because it might have to march with that apartheid ruler and made it much more susceptible that led to the first democratic elections in 1994 with the election of mandela when mandela had his
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funeral was one of the few heads of state was castro of cuba. [applause] in any case spanish cuba was in a quandary. of though one hand they suspected were ever won, the winners would want cuba because that is for taking it decades previously there is the effort to make it a state of united states of america. that is one idea that circulates.
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another idea is solidarity for comrades to defeat the north. then the self would oust the spanish the bennett opened airport to united states of america but after the defeat there was tremendous pressure to abolish slavery and a bloody war erupted leading to the rise of a figure of antonio from haiti was to be a hero against black americans even today carry the name.
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and eventually it was years of war as happens as they slug it out the united states decides to intervene and then takes over the island of cuba and as noted this leads to the race war in cuba of 1912 to save thousands of africans are on the island in 1912. but it is something of a contribution to highlight the role of u.s. authority.
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because they basically ruled cuba since few have africans it seems that the blood is on the hand of uncle sam. the revolution that leads to the rise of a communist party but interestingly enough it is relatively strong that is a major concern to the u.s. authority because they suspected that the africans was spent -- extend the system through jim crow. you may also know that in cuba there was quite a bit of solidarity.
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those that were slated for execution because of false allegation of sexual molestation. but the international movement erupted to save them from the gallows and in fact, this helps to establish constitutional principles still in operation that was basically not occurring to tremendous solidarity up to iran including bloodshed on behalf of the scottsboro nine. but maybe we could talk about this with question and
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answer how black americans are perceived particularly in terms of race relations as to obtain with the mainland with that becomes an issue. in any case i conclude the book by talking about the fact africa and cuba plays a central role because he is though lawyer for the naacp and the 1950's is under assault and is the chief attorney you may know you had a bus boycott in tallahassee that was more significant better known
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than the one in alabama that was named after rosa parks. and francisco rodriguez was the chief attorney and an emblem of long term solidarity between cubans and black americans and african cubans and african-americans. japan what has happened is history has been forgotten because of the blockade embargo which the united nations just condemned. and it is very important to
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remove the of mental black schaede because one of the stories i tell in the book is set a time you could be a freudian or cuban the next day but that is to say perhaps unbeknownst to many of us took it will be difficult to find relatives as long as there is up blockades always seems so we should be the vanguard to try to eliminate this cruel blockade if only for reasons to rediscover our relatives on the other side of the florida straits.
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thank you for your attention [applause] >> coming to the microphone for your questions. [inaudible conversations] >> could you please elaborate the immediate
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situation for cuba supporters that don't know? >> you are referring to a woman that was incarcerated by the u.s. authorities and was able to escape their clutches and like many before could find refuge on the island of cuba so she is still alive. the parts of the success of the efforts is the ability to have a rare base we will talk tomorrow about mexico just like there was the underground railroad to canada there was the similar underground ii mexico.
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with this relationship with the british naiad of base in the bahamas and talk about this november 1841 when they were transported to the cave art of the slave trade. they revolted off the shores of the bahamas and overthrew the captors and when they arrived abolitionist britain freed them all to the consternation of the u.s. authorities because as a lifeline cuba was the base and the black panthers found refuge in cuba for a couple years of the '70s.
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and she also found the base to escape the evil clutches of the u.s. authorities and going forward as the struggle escalates and intensifies through the rivers -- their errors through the halls of washington d.c. that we will find the need if history is a guide cuba will continue to serve as the base. because it in some ways she exemplifies not only the struggle but also how it is possible to escape the clutches of uh jurisdiction
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and just as they have done in cuba. >> we appreciate all the information you share with us this evening knu expand i.r.a. understand the spanish general defeated the spaniards to give mexico independence the somebody should be widely known not only here but also mexico. >> i want to preempt what i will say to hour. [laughter] but to repeat your illuminating words but it is difficult to explain some times that the system of taint here in north america
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is not necessarily the same in other parts of the americas. but the reason i say that is a couple of points. because when ian smith, of the ruler declared the independence of the white minority regime the argument he was walking in the footsteps their british rule 1776 he had a point they were trying to escape slavery. to escape that logic of one phot one person or one-man one-vote.
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so contrary to the opinions of our friends on the left was not a step forward for humanity. but it was backwards for the indigenous population and the african population. you should also know with that easy argument put forward the kinds of liberty's established in the united states of america at the end of the day found the atrocities. . .
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voter suppression is the hallmark of the united states in 2014. i dare say that one of the top items on the agenda big in this incoming republican congress will be ever more devious and dovish ways to circumscribe the right to vote. so it's much too easy to suggest that the so-called democratic
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rights made the atrocities worthwhile. first of all that's a callous argument certainly not very meant that make the socialist camp. they would say well they helped african liberation forces. no they don't say that. that was a disaster. if you argue otherwise you are callous and you should even lose your job. but that's the kind of argument that is used with regard to rationalizing what happened in unleashing this. another point, if this revolt against british rule established in united states were such a step forward for humanity than why is it that canada which did not revolt against british rule by most objective indices has a better standard of living because of more suitable place to live particularly like the working class people have a single-payer health care system which i keep hearing is the health care system that we should have united states. you may have heard that two days after the election on tuesday the supreme court has now
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reached out to adjudicate once again the affordable care act. don't be surprised if it's left sprawling in the dust. we have a control group as the social scientists say. cabinet that did not have a vote against british rule is a better place to live. canada has and it's been a living hell for people of color especially. australia which has a similar to that of the united states of america there is a thriving historiography that criticizes the origins even historians on the left of united states of america. they are drinking the kool-aid. they are talking about the united states as the great former humanity whose flawed democratic election. you might as well say apartheid
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established in south africa in 1948 which basically led to certain rights of people of european dissent. you might as well use segment that apartheid in many ways was before humanity. they formed the template that would then be applied to nelson mandela so apartheid not something to struggle against a celebration force. this is. this is insanity but this is the sort of mental gymnastics that many of our progressive friends have been forced into in some wonder the movement on the left is so weak in the united states. they haven't been able to escape the creation that led to the creation of this country. once again to reiterate the take-away, we have been able to advance us far from slavery to where we are today not only because of our constant strugg struggle, our constant
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unrelenting struggle but because of our ability to take advantage of international situation and having friends in the international community. and until we adjust this wasn't fully the way apparently the parents of michael brown have adjusted this i think will th the -- we will be perpetually -- [applause] >> first of all i would live to like to thank you. as you may well know i didn't know about any of this stuff. now i went to a certain university of california school in westwood and i won't mention its name. [laughter] a professor said people liked it the way was in the south in my response to her was well if blacks can go -- a vote and
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natives and women and poor white guys couldn't vote of 90% are disenfranchised how can you say they liked it the way was that i won't say what her response response was that it wasn't positive. my question to you is, if i went to theoretically a good university and i don't know, how can we enlighten society because i heard from on the left who said you are talking about tricking the kool-aid. i have no idea as an african descendent i was fighting against the american revolution. i was taught by the experts that everything was cool here and my perspective should be like thomas jefferson. i knew better than not.
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>> you are racing at some point. obviously what you're racing is the fact that there's a battle of ideas. there are many battles in this country. there are battles against police brutality and battles in favor of better housing. there are battles in favor of adequate health care and there is a battle of ideas that undergirds all of those other battles. universities are part of the battle of ideas. with all due respect to my fellow scholars as i said i mean you know some of them need to do some retraining. they need to ask different questions. they need to look at different sources. for example one of the things i found it doing this book on 1776 was that a lot of the scholars who write about colonial north america that is to say the pre
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pre-1776 period before the proclamation emancipation of america they really don't do research in london. it's like doing research on puerto rico say pre-1898 in not doing research in spain or doing research on puerto rico post post-1998 and washington for example. and then one of the theses i purport in this book is about the construction of whiteness what i call the original identity politics. it's a militarized politics. that is to say one of the many ways that the rebels against british rule are able to prevail is that they escape or they seek to escape from her the religious cold war protestant versus catholic and changes the axis from religion to race. that is to say those defined as white against those defined not as white. that latter project is much more capacious. that is to say that way as you
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know somebody of lebanese christian dissent like ralph nader could be defined as white and doesn't apple roots in europe. it helps to curb the antagonisms. english versus irish, british versus french. german versus british, russian versus pull mad pig across the atlantic and they magically are transmitted into white. the problem is for those who are not defined as white and so is interesting about a lot of the scholars is that they take for granted the concept of white. they don't interrogate the concept of why. they just take it for granted and not try to look at its historical evolution. part of the job of historians is to change over time. you shouldn't parachute into 1776 msm whites is something that has been around forever.
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it's as to boys pointed out a recent historical construction. once again there is a battle of ideas going on and hopefully what we are doing here is part of that battle of ideas that can push back successfully against these forces. [applause] >> hello dr. horne. my question is could you tie in what was going on along with the constitution at the time because there was ideas put out for sa say -- for to be abolished but those people didn't succeed during that time, but during that time there was a lot more with the constitution and the basis of that was the whole issue of slavery and their wealth being in i guess subjected to being taken away.
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>> fortunately there has been a lot of scholarship on this question of slavery in the constitution. the short answer to your question i would focus upon so-called three-fifths compromise. that is to say for congressional representation you know that today there are approximately 435 house districts and they are drawn on the basis of population but what happens if you have slaves or african become enslaved africans in your district? should you count them as a full person for purposes of congressional representation or should you not? and of course the three bits compromise is like the idea of the camel being designed by committee. that is to say this is what comes out of this debate, the debate between africans as humans and africans as
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furniture. but the question of slavery in the constitution is also reflected in the ability of the slaveowners to force legally and constitutionally states that don't necessarily have slavery to return their property. that is to say if a slave african escapes north of the mason-dixon line come in fact you probably know that the united states has only tried to enforce the rights of slaveowners to get their property back from north of the mason-dixon line and doing that on the basis of alleged legality constitutionality but they are trying to force other countries like the british empire from leaving the bahamas and canada to return this property and that becomes a point of contention between london and washington and of course that leads the war of 1812. after 1812 it repeatedly leads
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to conflicts. you are correct to suggest that slavery was at the heart of politics and the united states and reflected in the constitution that is reflected in the fact that a disproportionate percentage of slaveowners, excuse me the u.s. presidents were slaveowners and it's also reflected -- i noticed this audience carries around pictures wherever they go. this chap here andrew jackson who of course was not only a slaveowner but was probably a slave trader and of course was responsible for some of the most violent and vicious deprivations against the indigenous population. i mean what's interesting about the united states is the cherokee population. people referred to the cherokee in a state of georgia. they are willing to assimilate
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and change their dress and engage in the kinds of pursuits that euro-americans do but that does not save them from being expelled from the state of georgia and andrew jackson is largely responsible for that. andrew jackson one of the ways he is catapulted in the summer of 1816 when they africans in what was then spanish florida had established the most strongly armed of africans on the north american mainland with all due respect to my friends and comrades in the black panthers they had pop guns compared to what the folks in the ford had an andrew jackson was catapulted to prominence by destroying the ford. but i will keep the $20. [laughter]
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>> dr. horne to say the least you are extremely impressive and extremely educational. i feel like you took me from kindergarten to ph.d. level in the last hour, very impressive. but in the pantheon of our great great leaders, potential leaders like william edward berger dubois's and malcolm malcolm x they make threatened to take united states before the international community in regard to genocide and racial suppression and degradation? >> why did you ask that question? first of all dubois as you probably know file the petitions circa 1946 with the newly born united nations with the human rights violations against people of african descent but perhaps the most successful well-known effort involved paul roberson as you correctly point out approximately 1950 or 1951 when william patterson and the civil
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rights congress and you may recall i wrote a book on william patterson that came out last year, black revolutionary. this was a very significant effort. it got tremendous amount of international support. it was i think a turning point in our struggle against jim crow because it put the international spotlight on the united states at a time when it was creating -- all over the world about alleged human rights violations in other countries. and the roberson patterson petition basically made the u.s. authorities seem like what they were. and malcolm x of course also talked about taking the u.s. authorities to international bodies and traveled a great deal to that and and you may note that in 1970s an organization i once led the national conference of black lawyers
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tried to do the same thing. it's an idea that won't go away because it does not seem that our problems are going away anytime soon. there are only so many remedies and solutions to our problems one of which is trying to make for more friends and allies to lengthen the battlefield to not be restricted to the four corners of the united states of america where is tuesday's vote suggested and hopefully not but may suggest that a retrograde reactionary forces have a certain amount of capability and potency but the way we outfight them, the way we turn the tables on them is create friends and make friends not the least amongst those who have a bone to pick with them. let's start with havana cuba for example. thank you very much.
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[applause] now from booktv's recent coverage of miami book fair international kris paronto and mark geist part of security and a responded to the attack on a special mission in benghazi libya on september 11, 2012. they discuss "13 hours" the inside account of what really
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happened in benghazi. this is about 40 minutes. >> host: joining us are two members of the benghazi response team. this is kris paronto and mark geist also amount as oz and tonto. there are parts of this book, "13 hours" the inside account of what really happened in bengha benghazi. we will begin here mark geist. where were you on september 12, 2012? >> guest: benghazi libya and that night i was actually having come up me in a case officer were having dinner with people we had to meet that night to talk to and we probably had just about wrapped up when i got a call from tyrone woods on the cell phone and he said you need to get back to be annexed as quickly as possible. there's something going on and there's trouble at the
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consulate. >> host: were you at the military and why we there are? >> guest: i was working as kris was too we were both private military contractors, contracted with united states government to protect case officers while they go about doing their job. >> host: kris paronto were we that night? >> guest: i was in the annex, the cia and xml is standing by. i was on the quick reaction force were oz because he was out in the town and i was basically standing by waiting for him to come back so we could call it a night. it was basically you are an edge but just another normal day for us. their operations going on and we are making sure everyone supported. >> host: what was the cia annex? >> guest: it's basically a facility that's used to do operations, clandestine operations of the cia has there. >> host: how far was that from where the ambassador kris stephens was killed? >> guest: three-quarters of a
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mile to where the crow flies. it's a couple short turns and you are there. >> host: and was of a known facility that it was an american facility? >> guest: yeah many state departments worked nearby are known. our facilities are not supposed to be known but over time especially if we are there for certain period of time you are just going to be able to see white faces coming in and out of the compound to whether ours was known or not i don't know but it's safe to assume the locals knew it wasn't a local facility. the consulate guess it was known. >> host: why was ambassador stevenson in benghazi? >> guest: he was there to help open up, it was a school opening, a local libyan had hoped a u.s. airman or pilot who got shot down during the ousting of gadhafi. to support him he had opened up
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an american school or an american speaking school for libyans and the ambassador ambassador came down to do a ribbon ceremony for that individual. >> host: you two were not on the ambassadors personal team, correct? >> guest: no. >> host: did you see him while you were there in benghazi? goes go. >> guest: the ambassador to come by and visit us. he was the ambassador of libya and he came by the day before and had lunch and of course he is going to come and meet with our chief of base. he won't meet with the security team personally but will come in and give a talk. this is what's going on this with the state department is doing. it's more of a meet and greet to say hey thanks guys for assisting us and a chance for them, we have better food than they did so at the chance for them to come in e at our facility. >> host: what was the security threat at that time?
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>> guest: benghazi itself was a lawless city. it was part of the country that had a government but the only place that government had any effective control was in tripoli. outside of the greater tripoli area didn't have any control whatsoever. when i first got there you never even saw police cars around. everything was controlled by the militia. about 15 days before 9/11 when the attack happened you started seeing police cars but even the policeman would answer to the militias. they worked for the governments that they would answer to militia. >> guest: is a high threat environment like afghanistan and iraq. you know that day being 9/11 was more threatening and that's a better answer for it. it's always in a threatening environment every day were there especially in areas that don't have a solid government. it's very dangerous but that's why we are there. >> host: how many american security personnel such as
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yourselves, there are diplomatic security and grs and then there were some cia folks. the cia, cia. >> guest: yeah we have the diplomatic security officers. there were six of them and there was us. there is a security team. >> host: grs stands for? >> guest: global response system. 18 or 19 of them there as well and that's who we primarily -- >> guest: less than 25. >> host: is that a normal staff were diplomatic compound such as this? >> guest: for the annex there is never a normal staff. it just varies on the location and what help they need and supported things like that. the consulate now, i have been
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probably in my 30 years of being in the military have contracted 13 different countries and having five diplomatic security personnel almighty is not normal. >> host: is a low number. >> guest: especially with no security on their site. they had five libyan guards that were hired from february 17 brigades but that was it. you are guarding eight acres. >> guest: it was odd and in my opinion i have worked state department contracts prior to cia contracts and it was very low, very undermanned especially with the higher ranking ambassador like ambassador stephens. >> host: is to cover the book book. it's called "13 hours" the inside account of what really happened in benghazi. the numbers are on the screen if you would like to dial-in and talk with kris paronto and mark mark geist on-site in benghazi
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that nine. 20 t. -- eastern and central timezones 585-3891 and for those in the mountain and pacific timezones. what time did the incident occurred? i hate to call it an incident but the invasion i guess. >> guest: there were several different timelines. my timeline when i looked at my watch and i have said this to everybody i have been interviewed by and the house and tell subcommittee it was 9:32. that's what i had at my watch when we were called in the incident began when he found out about it. again there are conflicting timelines. i don't know what to tell you about those. zero i know is what i saw in my watch. >> host: at the time you are at the annex a mile and half away from the complex. what time did you all arrived at the compound? >> guest: i was out of town.
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i made my way back in by this time i got back to the annex these guys started last because i had to take your security when i got back to make sure the annex got attacked i was there to pick them. >> guest: we left our compound approximately 9:58 so 27 minutes after the initial call. we left and we were able to get halfway there where they had reinforced a lot of the positions where we are going to drive. we have to get in our vehicles and go on foot and split into two teams to get to the consulate. it took us at least 45 minutes to an hour to arrive from the initial initial call and tell the gods the consulate and by that time it was on fire and the ambassador was missing. the buildings were filled with smoke. we were lucky that we are booked to push them off and get a low where we could clear and
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evacuate as many people as we could. took an hour for us to reach the consulate after the initial call. >> host: but why? did you get the call right away? >> guest: that's the million-dollar question. we were told to stand down. we were delayed for approximately 27 minutes on our compound. we do not know as far as outside of our chain of command in libya where that came from. we know it came from the stand-down down orders and the weights and the delays came from libya from chief of station base. whether came from anybody higher we have an answer that, we don't know and we would like to know but we have no idea. >> host: mark geist did you get outside assistance from the brits, the libyans? >> guest: at 6:30 in the morning, 5:00 work 6:00 in the morning the militia that is actually part of the libyan government, libyan shield is
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what helped escort us then to the airport. that was 13 hours, 10 hours later. up until that time there was no other real significant assistance. there was, february 17 brigade there were few of their people that had shown up where kris and jake were that helps out on her but there was not a substantial force for many libyan militia for security government force that helps until 6:00 in the morning. >> host: you are in a town with a case officer new into these libyan businessmen's house on the beach for dinner. he you gave him your knife because he admired it. you drove her back to where? >> guest: back to the annex. >> host: this was before the attack? >> guest: actually it was
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while the attack was taking place at the consulate. we came back on a different route. >> host: see you did not take her back to the consulate? >> guest: she lifted our place. >> host: you took her back to the annex. at that point did you stay at the annex for 13 hours? >> guest: yes. >> host: we able to communicate to those of the compound? >> guest: the biggest thing at that point is being a good listener, making sure i understood the situation that they were giving out over the radio and making sure also that i have things ready. we knew that they are hitting that more than likely they will hit us so we have to be ready and that was the biggest thing i was looking at making sure we had positions manned and in the meantime no one was trying to sneak up on our compound and attack us. >> host: kris paronto how many people died? >> guest: on our and we did loose for. we lost ty woods, glenn
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dougherty and security officers on our team and they lost sean smith and ambassador stephens due to smoke inhalation at the consulate. it was tough. it was tough to lose everybody. on there and we had reports of anywhere from 20 to 40. there is a u.s. military element to come in and find bodies. we weren't keeping score. that's not how it works. >> host: when and how was ambassador stephens finally discovered? >> guest: he was discovered actually and we found this after-the-fact. the gentleman carrying him with a phone in his mouth was actually a neighborhood friend of ours. he actually was a friend, a live-in. when we finally left the consulate at midnight and the attack was aimed at the annex
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and the smoke died down and the fire died down the locals were able to go in there and that is when the looting took place between midnight and 1:30 in the morning. they were able to get far back enough into the villa because the smoke inhalation in the diesel fuels had died down. they were able to find his body and pull him out. he died of smoke inhalation. the reports of him being being drug in the street and tortured work and correct. we did look at his body. >> host: he was not drug in the streets. >> guest: and he died of smoke inhalation. >> host: and he had been locked into the secure area so smoke inhalation. >> guest: yes. >> host: very quickly your military background. >> guest: i joined the marine corps in 1984 and did 12 years, got out in 1996. >> host: in the mckenna contractor. >> guest: i became a police officer for six years. three of that i was the chief of police in a small town in
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eastern colorado. after that i started my own business doing private investigation held mountain bounty hunting in that kind of thing and win the war kicked off i had to get back in the game. >> guest: army ranger with the 75th armor regiment and i was with 19 special forces groups in the contractor for nine years before of benghazi happened and every country in the middle east and north africa i worked in and reported to. we have extensive experience on the ground so we are very lucky we did have that experience on the ground. i think it's what saved a lot of lives and kept us together. >> host: tactically what would he have done differently? >> guest: i've been asked that question before. tactically personally in my opinion i would have disobeyed orders earlier and left. if i had control of the supporting elements or have the ability to contact them with supporting elements would have
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been there sooner but as far as movement, the shooting that we did, the actual splitting up of teams and the compound tactically i think we did everything militarily correctly and i think that is why we are about to save lives and fight off an extremely large force. the mistakes that were made on our and and i do take responsibility. not leaving early enough and not being able to save the ambassadors like i take that personally so that's the biggest mistake i feel that we made. i don't know p. agrees with that keeps me up at night. >> host: mark geist. >> guest: well the same thing. it wasn't our job to protect ambassador but he's an american serving in an area of operations that we, when we were there we felt we were responsible for any other american that's fair.
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the fact that we couldn't get over there quick enough i was one of the biggest things. the way i look at it is and i know they are talking about i think in a recent report that the chief base was trying to get libyans to find out information to find out what was going on so they can assess the tactical situation. i'm not going to personally depend on a libyan or a third country national or somebody else to do that. i'm going to depend on americans that i know i have that are highly trained in between the six of us that were there are security contractors we had over 100 years of experience. in some more sun or something around the world. tyrone woods, he was with the most elite of the military forces with the s.e.a.l.s. a number of different teams. he had retired from that and had been an instructor.
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all of us and if you have a guard dog are you going to let the guard dog do his job or are you going to hold him them back and tell him he can't? >> host: mark geist, kris paronto awes and tonto and we have a third gentleman sitting off to the side who was also there. in this book "13 hours." this is hannah in riverside california. hannah you are on booktv. cocco hello. i heard that the ambassador had some inside information that was possible he was targeted and the victims who were, the first one had inside information about benghazi and i just wondered if you had heard anything about that and god bless the
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president. thank you. >> guest: thank you. i can speak for myself that i have not heard of any information that was similar to that on any specific information that they would have had. either of those people that would have brought that danger to them. >> guest: tactically the way they handled its tactically because of the sheer numbers is a possible they were targeting him for kidnapping? it is possible but do we have information that had taken place? no we don't have information and esparza beheading we don't have information that any of the beheadings were due to people having information on benghazi. it has not been infirmed on our and so the answer to you is we don't have a solid answer because it has not been solidified. >> host: jemison north brunswick new jersey. cocco hi kris and mark.
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when kerry was testifying and she made the statement what difference does it make how did that make you feel? >> guest: angry. whether or sin context because that is the thing i have always heard, was in the wrong context that no matter what context you put that statement and from somebody at that level within politics, i mean it always makes a difference. if you don't find out the truth about what happened you can devalue it what you did right and wrong. so yeah it angered me very much. >> guest: me as well. we had people die, u.s. ambassador high-level and their friends died. it is a huge difference when americans die on foreign soil so again context or not it was an incorrect statement and it still makes me angry today hearing that.
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i think i speak for the rest of the team that makes us hold onto telling the truth and not be swayed or bullied to not continue to put the truth out there. so yeah thank you for saying that ms. clinton because it's going to make me dig my heels in and make sure everyone knows what happened matters. >> host: eleanor is calling from sampras cisco. eleanor go ahead with your question or comment. cocco yes, gentlemen thank you for your service. i have to comment before i ask my question that i don't think it's fair to take the secretary's comments out of context. i know darned well she didn't mean what you are implying that she did. she was saying that these people were dead and no matter what you couldn't bring them back. i watched that testimony and i certainly didn't get any of the negative aspects of her response that you are implying or that you have heard. but anyway my question is i am
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sure you are aware of all of the hearings that isis has had in congress on benghazi. i'm wondering if you have any opinions about you know what has come out and whether you think it was useful and that sort of thing. i would really appreciate your opinion on that. thank you. >> guest: well, you know the hearings that are taking place at think are very useful. i think that we have to get as much information out as possible and we have to evaluate it and determine what happened and what was right and what was wrong just so we don't repeat that. and the only way to do that is do you know kick that force until it's down. we have still got to do that because we haven't reached the full complexity.
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not everyone on the ground has been talked to. >> guest: as far as a lot of the house, we were there on the ground. we told the truth. we told the house until subcommittee what happened. whether they want to believe us or not that was up to them but there were no other people on the ground but us that night. our stories haven't changed. they have not wavered so at the subcommittee or whoever else wants to say these things that don't represent the book you have them on the show and ask them. all we are going to do is keep telling you what happened that night and on the comment i appreciate and understand that you are in charge and you are a leader you don't say that about military personnel when they die especially the way they died and we didn't have the support we needed over there. i understood your position and is respected. thanks. >> host: mitchell is the author of "13 hours" with the nx
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security team. here's the cover of the book and steven in decatur illinois please go ahead with your question or comment. cocco first i want to say i thank you for your service. any time people go into harm's way that makes a difference and that's always important and we always care about you. i would like your opinion about politics gets in the way. i would like your opinion on an issue of whether the state department participated in calling closing the embassy properly. you said you didn't get out soon enough. sounds to me like our best response would have been we didn't respond quickly enough to the situation on the ground and we didn't get you out of there when we should have. what is your response to that?
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>> you know i think the thing that should have happened first and foremost before 9/11 is to ensure that any u.s. facility we have overseas has the assets available to protect itself. most circumstances that they are going to run into because you are ours going to have that number seen. but then also have her response force or her response plan in place that is going to allow those people to survive. and not have to depend on themselves only. that's the best thing to do to keep americans alive overseas is to make sure you have a strong presence and you are putting up that bigger defense so you don't look like the victim or the person that's going to go down without a fight. >> guest: you are correct and you make a good point. you either defend her keep and you make sure you have it properly defended or you pull up
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chops and you leave. we were stuck in the middle. it was halfway. you can't do that. you have to either show that force or you have to leave. you bring up a good point and i do agree. if we are not going to fully secure our facilities overseas like they should've done and we probably shouldn't have been there. you will get no argument from me there. >> host: todd is in hawaii. you are on the air. cocco yes, hi. i was wondering what do you guys do when you are off duty and these hostile countries? can you go out? can you interact with people? >> guest: usually what we do, our job is to understand the community and the environment that we work in. so when we are not on a specific mission we are always doing
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things to better acquaint ourselves with the environment we are working in and around what's going on in that environment. outside of that i mean to let go of the stress we work out a lot and we play a lot of x-box. >> guest: we are very lucky that we are allowed to go off site whenever we want to. we do mingle in town and we do go to the coffee shops. we pride ourselves on knowing cities better than the locals. also there are good people in benghazi that we became friends with, local restaurant owners that want to get back on their feet and get their country back. when these sorts of things happen that hurts us more than i think most because we do have a relationship with these people. when we leave the country they are going to die because of their relationship with us.
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i say mark and i have played our share of video games but we do read a lot too. we read a lot of books just trying to learn and better ourselves about what the heck is going on within the country the history and also just did tried to stay busy as best we can. downtown is the worst enemy force over there. >> host: did i read correctly that there was a libyan security team guarding the consulate of a compound that night september 12, 2012 and when the break-in occurred they fled? >> guest: the blue mountain group hired by the state department to provide security at the consulate local forces and i believe we saw one shot fired in a video camera but after that they were gone. this. >> guest: . >> host: they got into the villa where the investor was staying with one shot fired? guest of the bad guys, they are
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very good at planning. the terrorists are good at blending and they walked into the compound and basically took over without having to do much but fired a few rpgs and they were there. >> host: is that standard operating procedure to have non-americans guarding our compound's? >> guest: there is security of late and just like a foreign government's consulate or embassy here in united states is guarded its outermost layer is u.s. personnel guarding that. the same agreement happens in foreign countries. the people that are going to come up and come to that conflict are going to be locals from that country in the first people they interact with our local security forces. >> guest: it's to show hearts and minds sort of thing but in that respect the rapport
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developed with local forces wasn't there. in other countries works because we develop a good report in afghanistan and we tried in kurdistan but it hadn't been developed yet. the size of a local force that was there was not large enough. like mark said eight to 10 acres you need more than four blue martin guys here they carried batons. it was insufficient. >> host: at john muir on booktv with mark geist and kris paronto. >> caller: from the description of the numbers of personnel and what they were doing from what the gentlemen have been saying and from other information i received it sounds like this really was not a standard consulate. it was more of a cia operation and there was more activity
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relating to intelligence gathering and counterinsurgency activities then what would normally be considered diplomatic activity. so i have two questions. number one, if what i said is correct, is there a different evaluation should be applied to this situation in terms of security and in terms of the way the situation should be approached? and the second question i have is, and you know the man had a lot of courage and he was a patriot. i really have to ask realistically do the ambassador demonstrate good judgment in going to the place under the
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circumstances that were prevailing? >> host: thank you sir. >> guest: i will answer the first question and kris will better be able to answer the second one. the cia annex and the consulate are two completely separate entities that are independent of one another and they are operations though maybe coordinated together back in washington we were completely independent of them and them as well as us. our missions are completely different and that would be the case there are as well as everywhere else that we would be working. >> guest: i think i get what you are saying that maybe it was used for cover to help our base. whether it was or not still need sufficient security. was intelligence gathering going on? of course, we are cia. that's what we do. we have to find terrorists. we have to find anybody involved
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with aqi or al qaeda or any other terrorist organization that might hit us so yeah this was going on but that's just normal. as far as the ambassador guess you are right he's a patriot. am i going to tell you that it was his fault that he died they are? i never will say that. could he have used better judgment and had more security with him? if it was me i probably would have. i'm not going to say i agree with you on saying that maybe he made a bad judgment call. i would have made something different but he was the ambassador and he felt comfortable there. working the state department combine -- confines before and being a detail later for investors in iraq and having if and having a because protecting an ambassador i thought he was a little bit unprotected but he is the ambassador. he is the head guy and he's going to do what he wants to do. but i would not have made the same decision if i were him. >> host: what are you doing these days?
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>> guest: we all had to resign and it kills us literally. i miss the job immensely. right now this is it. we are pushing the book. the names are out there. our names are out there. we are not giving up classified information the book. enough -- the book is nothing classified in it. but because our names are out there and are call signs are out there now its affiliation and we can't deploy any more. it was one of those things we have to do. >> host: mark geist what he doing these days? is a spending a lot of time with my kids and as my wife says my new job is selling books. i'm a bookseller so if you come out and buy the book we would love it. >> host: beth in columbia south carolina we have a couple of minutes left. >> caller: hi guys. first of all i want to say thank you so much for your service and thank you so much for coming forward with your story. it's truly amazing and i'm sorry
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for the loss of your team members. i think it's absolutely shameful that you didn't have the support you need it. with that said i just wanted to know what kind of response overall you guys are getting from people now that the book is out and also can you come to columbia so you can sign my copy? >> guest: where's she from? >> host: south carolina. >> guest: first off best thank you very much for your support. in support of the people out there when we are meeting the people is what makes this all worthwhile. it's wonderful to see and hear what people have to say and it's refreshing to see the love that people have for this country and their patriotism. as for south carolina i know for was directly up to us we would hit every state and every major
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town. i'm a small-town guy so i'd like to hit every small town. we are going to try to get out that way. follow us on facebook or twitter and we will let you know when we are going there in that direction. >> host: how do they follow you? personal names? >> guest: personal names. you can call central publishing and get with the publisher and tell them you want us in your city. they're the ones that drive the train on this. appreciate your phonecall. thank you very much. >> host: thank you beth and ramona and sanford you are the last caller. >> caller: yes, i was calling about, there was just not enough security there in the first place and in the second place, the report came out yesterday they did the interviews and
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there was no stand down order. there was no obama cover-up. you guys are out there trying to push a book to get your money because you have no job no more and trying to blame it on obama administration. i think that's wrong. you should tell the truth exactly the truth. >> host: thank you, maam. >> guest: maam, during the house until subcommittee had looked at mike rogers in the eyes and i said if we would not have been delayed which we were delayed three times we would have saved the ambassador's life and sean smith's life and i will go on record again with whoever wants to talk to me on the news media organizations they begin what i've said multiple times. why he came out with a report he
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did i don't know what to tell you. he will have to ask him. what we said in the book is what happened on the ground and that is the truth. as far as the bookselling i do have my own business on the side. i don't need bookselling money and we didn't do this to sell a book. we did it to tell the truth. we also deployed for a year after that waiting for the or somebody to come forward and tell the truth which they didn't and we made a decision as a team to come forward and tell the truth. you have your opinion and you are entitled it and i respect that but the book is the truth bottom line. >> guest: ramona had we stayed working we would be able to make more money working than what we could selling this book. we did it to honor the four guys that died there because they were being honored. what was refreshing was we were up in montana and the same thing happened. there was a fireman from los angeles that built the monument in montana because he didn't feel they were being honored at
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that time. this started two years ago, a year and a half ago is what it was when he started building that. those are the things that why we did it and why other americans are doing the things they do to let that the story be told on what happened on the ground in honor of the four americans that died serving our country. >> host: mark geist, kris paronto, odds and toronto they were the members of vanik security team. "13 hours" the inside account of what really happened in bengha benghazi. you are watching booktv on c-span2. >> host: what was the security
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threat at that time? >> guest: benghazi itself was a lawless city. it was part of the country that had a government but the only place the government had any effective control was in tripoli. outside of the greater aaa area they didn't have any control whatsoever. when i first got there you never even saw police cars around. everything was controlled by the militia. 15 days before 9/11 when the attack cap and we started seeing police cars but even the policeman would answer to the militias. they worked for the government that they answer to the militia. >> guest: is just like afghanistan and just like iraq. that day being 9/11 was more threatening? that is a better answer, stories a threatening environment especially areas of him have a -- that's why they bring us in. >> host: how many american security personnel such as
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yourselves and their diplomatic security and grs. and then there were some cia folks, correct and cia cia. >> guest: we have diplomatic security officers. there were about six of them in we weren't to cheer us and we a security team. >> host: grs stands for? >> guest: global response staff and the cia staff personnel not shooters as we call them come 18 or 19 of them as well. that is who we primarily -. >> host: is that a normal staff for diplomatic compounds such as this? >> guest: for the annex there is never a normal staff. it just varies on the location and what help they need and supporting things like that. the consulate now i have been in
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my 30 years of being in the military and contracting 15 or 20 different countries and at the consulates are invasive saeb been to having five diplomatic security personnel only is not normal. >> host: it's a low number? >> guest: at a low number especially with no other security on their site. they had five libyan guards that were hired from february 17 brigade in your garden acres. >> guest: it was odd and i have work state department contracts work state department contract priorities state department contracts and was very low. very under managed especially with a high-ranking investor. it was odd and it seemed odd to us. ..


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