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tv   Jack Barsky Discusses Deep Undercover  CSPAN  May 29, 2017 12:30pm-1:26pm EDT

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relationship between china and united states. in destined for war. an historian take as closer look at the end of romanov's rule over russia in the, the russian revolution. look for titles in bookstores this coming week. watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on c-span2. [inaudible conversations]. >> good afternoon. thank you for joining us here. welcome to the national spy museum. i'm joins houghton. i'm the museum historian and curator this was not exist ad few weeks ago. we put this together quickly. we appreciate you coming out. we couldn't miss the opportunity to have this man, jack barsky sit in front of you today.
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>> you're on. this will take care of you. if you don't know his background. we'll talk about it today. give you a brief introduction. this is a life that is as improbable as it comes. we talk a lot here at the you museum about how spy pop culture is not necessarily true. in many ways about how it overexaggerates what espionage actually is. here we're going to see a true spy story that really got its beginning in very humble back warts, if i can use that word, of east germany but turns into a downright fascinating story about a man recruited by the kgb to infiltrate the united states. and then spent 10 years actively spying for the soviets. he resigned, i joked earlier i'm not sure you can actually do that, from the kgb. but then embarked on very successful second career in information management.
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when he was finally discovered by the fbi in the 1990s, he had wealth of information to give them. in return they let him become a real u.s. citizen. now he is a patriotic as you and i living as an american. in taking advantage of all the things that he couldn't have behind the iron curtain as a normal life here in the united states. one of the interesting things he is longest surviving known member of the kgb illegals program that operated during the cold war. so you have seen shows like "americans." those are soviet illegals. jack is the longest surviving member, operated for many, many years here in the united states. he is the author of the book "deep under cover." my life as kgb spy in america. we'll have it back, if you stay to sign them be happy to that. >> thank you. >> jack, very welcome to come to
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the spy museum. >> can i say something? >> absolutely. >> longest surviving member is still very important to me. i'm still very competitive. the person who had the record was also known as colonel able. his real name was eddie fisher actually. he was featured in the bridge of spies. he managed to stay here undetected for eight years. i actually managed for 10 and another nine until the fbi finally found me. but after 10 years i did that resignation thing. >> i would say the longest surviving is the key word. look at that one also. i want to start by talking about luck. i think luck plays such a key role in your story, both good and bad. starting with where you were borne. a lot of people have conversations about, we're so lucky to be born here in the united states. i can't imagine being born in the third world. not having creature comforts you have here. you were born in east germany. >> right. >> during the beginning of the
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cold war where there really wasn't a lot of creature comforts. wasn't that just east germany was behind. during the second world war and after, the soviets stripped essentially what most mattered inside of east germany. that is the world you were born to. >> as far as east you could go in germany without being in poland i consider myself as a result of world war ii, because my parent met because there was, towards the end of the war, people would flee the oncoming russian army and they would go west. didn't get very far but they wound up in the same space. that is how i got created in 1949. so without that war i wouldn't be here. and without, and i wound up in the soviet occupied part of germany which then became the german democratic republic, a communist satellite to the soviet union.
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so without communism, i wouldn't have signed up with the kgb and without that i wouldn't be here and without that i wouldn't be an american citizen today. this is a bit bizarre but there is a whole lot more to my story, you shake your head, that really happened? >> i think what is interesting without the war even more so you wouldn't have been in this position because many people here may not understand, in east germany during that time the war was still very fresh and hitler was still very fresh and fighting fascism and communist and stalin and soviets leading the fight, doing all the heavy lifting against the germans during the war. how did that shape your youth? >> sure. well the soviet union as some of you may know bore the heaviest fight in the fight against hitler and so we, east germany
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became, came under soviet influence and we were very glad that we were, we were an anti-fascist type nation and, i tell people this is one of the biggest mistakes i think the united states made or the cia are whoever made that decision was to co-opt nazi military intelligence, also known the organization, reinhardt kalin was head of that organization that we know was co-opted by the cia and eventually became the western intelligence agency. they were nazis and which were on the other side because the only political force that actively fought the nazis in the streets before they took power were the communists. so we were the good guys, they were the bad guys. i believe that juxtaposition
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allowed for years and years and years of propaganda in addition to some, nazis, ex-nazis, there was a chancellor had been member of the nazi party. i was idealogically fully convinced we were on the right side of history and that was the major reason i jumped in and said yes when the kgb knocked on the door. >> it is one thing to learn basic tradecraft and skillsets that the can be talk. it is another thing to have psychological makeup to be an effective undercover spy in the united states. what of your upbringing and tell against and everything you learned until you were recruited by the kgb made you the right person for this kind of a job? >> well, it was a pretty tough life. we were poor. we didn't know it though. but there was a lot of delayed
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gratification involved. there was a lot of discipline. my parents were typical germans and you know, i, i had to be followed, their rules to a t. and, i learned early on that nobody really cared about me, so i should take care of myself. there is bunch of examples in the book about that. there is a mental toughness and my mother kicked me out of the house early. she, that was, she meant well. she sent me to a boarding school when i was 14. so i learned how to say good good-bye. i went to university so far away i didn't have a chance to go home until summer recess. there were a lot of things that were in combination made me a good from a psychology aspect a good candidate to say good-bye to everything i knew an
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everybody i you knew and start over someplace else. i could still do it today. i just moved my family from upstate new york to atlanta. didn't bother me one bit. my girls are a little bit, my girls, my wife and my daughter, they have, they are home sick and i'm not. >> lot of training to get out of that. today if you wanted to join the cia, go to cia.gov and apply there. the kgb had a different way of doing things. when they recruited you they didn't say come work for us. what is interesting you laid this out in the book as well, if anyone is interested in the process it is done hire, such a great way. they really slow-played your recruitment. they didn't say jack or albrecht, we want you to join the kgb. they took time to make sure you're the right fight. you talk about the recruitment process. >> there was initial feeling
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out. initially the question was asked would you be interested in something like this. at that point it was quite clear to me i could have said no. but i said well, let's take a look. they needed to find out for themselves whether they you thought i was the right material because, you know he, from early on, it was clear that, if, i were to sign with them so to speak it would be for undercover work. as vince pointed out, it requires a certain personality to be able to do that. so they learned about me. i i met with my handler. we talked about everything. we talked about life issues. we became very good friends.
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he got to know me little well. he gave me little tasks. write about this particular object. write a report. on and on. i bet he wrote a report back to the center every time we met. at my end it was he gradually introduced me to the idea what it would be like to do this kind of work. took about a year-and-a-half before they popped the question. when that question was popped it was done by a very senior person in berlin. i had 24 hours to say yes or no. i could have said no at that point still because you don't, for this kind of work you don't work with somebody who you are encouraged into the service. it needs to be a volunteer. >> i want to ask you about your first i am prosecutions during -- impressions during training mission in west berlin. that was the first chance to see the west that had been given to
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you through propaganda and through other ideas. what. what did you see when you went to west berlin? did that change your ideology or change your opinion or reinforce what you were told? >> first of all i need to give folks a perspective. in those days we didn't have color tv and i lived in a an area where you couldn't get west german tv at all. we were, we called it the valley of the clueless. and so i had no idea what i would find on the other side of the wall. first impression i got, oh, my, there is a lot of color in this world. you know the buildings had color. the people were dressed nicely. in the east everything was gray and brown. so that was interesting but it certainly didn't make a dent in my ideology.
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the other thing that, it i was scared out of my mind. i thought i was running around with three letters on forehead saying kgb. every copy saw, does he want to talk to me? it was stressful this was enemy territory. this was the folks that i was going to fight in my sort of way >> we thought we would convince everyone with german accent. you didn't grow up speaking english as second or tertiary language. many people have probably taken a language in school. i took spanish for the better part of a decade. i only know the bad words but i can pronounce them really well
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but learning english, learning a second language to be as deep undercover as you were, wasn't just learning vocabulary. >> no. >> it was about learning nuance and slang. how did that work for you. >> you're doing that again. asking three questions. i took, we had compulsory russian in school starting in sixth grade. i studied russian for six years and i remembered next to nothing. we also had voluntary english. we could take french or english. i took english. that came very easily to me but i didn't retain much. when i was in training in berlin i was supposed to be headed to west germany. that was the normal way to send a german to the other side of germany undercover. that is really easy. but i also was told you need to learn one other language so i picking like. i started learning english.
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as i told you before, i'm pretty competitive. and i worked hard. so i would start and i learned and i learned. and so about the year-and-a-half into my training some visitor from moscow came over and asked me, so how is your english. i said, oh, i pulled out a book. i'm reading this novel by the way. i don't need a dictionary. ah. make a tape. see what you sound like. i made a tape, sent it to moscow. and they immediately flew me into moscow and had me interview with two ladies. one was a professor of english, russian at moscow university, worked for the kgb obviously and the other one was an american who had emigrateed with, she married a russian most likely kgb and they interviewed me separately to determine whether i could, i had the ability to learn english as well enough to
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claim to have been born in the united states. and its -- was a tie. american said he can. russian professor said no way. in this way wishful thinking comes in. the comrades made the decision, figure let's give it a shot, it is too tempting. so then i spent two years in moscow learning english, my tutor was this american lady. and then, then a couple who is well-known in, amongst, in circles such as folks run the spy museum, and i threw myself at that task and i really wanted to succeed and it sort of worked out. >> -- i now speak english much better than i speak german. that's a fact.
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>> do you still, do you still identify with your german name with your german background? have you completely left that behind or is there still something in you that looks back and identifies with that? >> i went back to germany three times since i became a citizen, and those folks call me by my german name or german nickname which i hate. it okay over there but i'm certainly more the american. i have proof of that. i was driving with a history professor the other day in atlanta in a car and i was talking about germany and the united states and i used us and them and we and they. and he said, i caught you. you constantly referring to germany as them. so i am now, first generation immigrant and immigration process was a little odd. [laughter] but american.
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and, you know, i have long since stopped anying in german. one thing i read in a book and it is still true, i count in german. >> this is a weird question. do you ever dream in german? >> not anymore, no. >> okay. >> actually about a year in the u.s. i proudly reported back to the center i'm now dreaming in english because i remember that very well. >> let me ask you, who was jack barsky? where does your name come from? >> it was stolen. this is standard operating procedure. this is how the soviets manufactured a false i.d.s. they would look for records of individuals who had passed away at a young age. in my case there is a, there is a cemetery not too far, someplace in maryland, i forgot the town where there is a grave
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stone that says jack barsky, born in 1944. passed away in 1954 i believe. he was 10 years old. one of the resident agents who probably worked at the embassy here found that and got the birth certificate pretending to be the father of that young boy. then it it was sent to moscow. i took that with me when i came to the united states and used this to build an i.d. and identity with genuine american document. >> wasn't just about building a name. there is a whole backstory. >> oh, sure. >> covering an i.d. is one thing but the kgb helped create a entire person behind jack barsky. >> sure. according to that birth certificate i was born in '44. so that made me already in my,
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my early 30s when i came here. made me five years older than i was. i was born in '49. so we constructed a cover story that started out with a birth certificate and then there was an agent in new york who went around the city and took pictures of places where i could have lived. where i went to school. middle school, elementary school, high school. and even found information about a took -- a factory that i could have worked out, a factory in downtown manhattan that manufactured chemicals hand had burned down. so there was no mirrored of that factory. so we covered a period of my life in the u.s. having worked in that factory. and then we came up with the idea that, that i dropped out of high school since i didn't have a high school diploma.
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and my mother passed away during that time and then i just moved up and went to work on a farm in upstate new york for several years. i dropped out of society and then i came back to new york to give it another try. so that's when my real life started kicking in. i never really used any of that legend. it was necessary to have just in case -- it gave you the certainty that people ask you questions, that you have answers. >> the kgb gave you extensive training as we talked about. there are only certain things they could know, nuances, cultural differences you had to learn the hard way. two stories i want to bring up. about a beer bottle it in canada and a passport in chicago. give the stories and how the kgb would not prepare you for every circumstance.
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>> no. no matter how much you think about what would happen, there are things you are not prepared for. so here is some weird issues where i didn't have the cultural training to be an american right away. it took a while to assimilate. so my, i took a test trip to canada for three months to learn to live in, speak the language and you know, be as close to the united states as possible you can be without being in it. first night i went to dinner and, at a restaurant, got a bottle of beer and i'm looking around and there is no bottle opener. so i asked the waiter, and i was, i was proud of the fact that i knew the english word for bottle opener, can i have a bottle opener, he looked a the me like, huh?
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i said i need to open this thing with a smirk on his face, he took it and twisted the cap off. we didn't have twist-off caps in east germany or russia for that matter. so that was, that was like weird, wasn't it? and i traveled with a west german passport. so they did have twist-offs. so that is one. the one only funny in hindsight. so when, when i entered the united states through o'hare airport in chicago, i was traveling, i was using a canadian passport. and i had sown into a piece of luggage i had, i had this birth certificate of jack barsky. when i went to a hotel, that's where i killed off the canadian
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and brought to life, became jack barsky, except that killing was much harder than expected. how do you destroy a passport? not that easy. they're flame retardant. you couldn't even burn the paper, never mind the plastic outside and picture t started smelling. this doesn't work that way. you start sweating. you're making, making a stink in a hotel room. hopefully nobody will stop by ask what is going on. fire alarm didn't go off. eventually i took a pair of scissors and cut it into small pieces and flushed it down the toilet. that was not part of the curriculum, how to destroy a passport. >> the book, there are hilarious moments where i put the book down laughing. there was another one i put myself in your shoes. i haven't been a undergrad, you had the pleasure, for lack of a
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better word, you would be a chemistry professor before being brought into the kgb, but because he didn't have a degree, much less a high school degree, you had to go to city college of new york, take fresh man classes you had to teach as professor like chemistry 101 and calculus 1. >> yeah. >> obviously you did pretty well, almost too well. >> i taught actually at much higher level than anything i was exposed to at the graduate level. chemistry 101 was like mickey mouse stuff. calculus 1, 2 and 3 i taught more advance level at that stuff. these subjects were all a breeze. i got to tell you i did not, i did not cut corners, for foreign language i did not take german. [laughter] i did not take spanish which i
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had acquired on my own first couple years here. i took french. but, anyway, there was an outcome that was unplanned and it had something to do with still being ignorant about certain aspects of society. i aced the whole program. so now i'm a valedictorian. they called me into the office and said, okay, we would like, you need to give a speech. i said, what? no. yes, yes, you have the best gpa. that is it. but i don't really deserve it. let some younger kids do this. no, no. by the way, if you feel uncomfortable, you can write it, let somebody else read it. that i couldn't accept. so here is the undercover kgb agent who is giving a val givina
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valedictorian at a college in new york city. in new york city. >> nobody noticed this was a little bit odd, in terms of my age. that i went through the program in three years. i mean, there was, nobody was alert to that. there is something kind of unusual about this guy. >> shows how good you are. another great story from this time shows how good you were, you befriend ad young man from hong kong who you taught english too. >> yeah. >> which is fantastic, the fact that you, he asked you, your english, you're a native speaker, can you teach me how to be a native speaker. >> right. i noticed something. he was in political science class. he was sitting next to me. he underlined a lot of this book. i told him, hey, listen, you have so much yellow here it is useless. you're underlining the almost entire book. he said, these are all the words i don't understand.
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the kid came from china and he was learning english while he was in college. so i took him under my wings. i applied what i learned in moscow. i bought a book, phonetics book and we did phonetics exercises together. i helped him learn english. he wind up, had to write a essay or couple essays for his application to law school at columbia. one of them he wrote about me, how i, how -- >> this nice american helped him learn english? >> yes. he is now a very wealthy, very successful attorney in new york. >> well, now, you have multiple degrees from different continents. you go on to your career, working in information management. >> right. >> for metlife, the big bad, nasty capitalist pig insurance company.
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>> right. >> not exactly what you expected when you got there. >> this is not an exaggeration. there were, insurance companies for some reason were singled out as he epitome of evil in capitalism. so, and when i started working at metlife they were all still mutual and were very paternalistic. in other words. the compact, directly spoken compact if you start with us, you will retire with us. you will work here until retirement, you will get a gold watch and going to get a pension. wow, it felt like i'm back home. [laughter]. instead of the insurance company back home, it was the state, it was the government, they told you where to go. . .
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to its capital at the mentors united states. up until that point, i had no point of reference because there's a bike messenger, i wasn't really a member, a fully functioning member of society msas in i wouldn't have known it there. >> selector tenures working in the united states, you got the emergency signal to leave, which is people may have seen this in a tv show or movie where you got no radio signal, but also a signal from a secret signal on the street saying drop everything and go. >> now, that is real. that is one of the more poignant moments in my life.
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i had to tell the kbg how i went from my apartment to work. they knew the footpath i need to get to the subway station. there is his body described to them with signals in the emergency signal was ever a.about this size. one day i walked to the subway. we are being filmed. i can't say the effort, but that is what came into my head. that meant it was in order. get out of here. no questions asked. so i have some emergency documents that were hidden in a pocket. i was supposed to retrieve them and made a beeline to canada, get in contact, toronto would
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have been a delegation, something like that and they would then x would then x will treat me to go back to moscow. but i didn't do with a ordered me to do. >> why not? why did you stay? >> unbeknownst to to the folks from moscow, i had a daughter here, 18 months old and i had bonded with her, you fathers in the audience know what i'm talking about. the first child that i was with, watching her grow up. the first instance that i experienced unconditional love. that means you love them no matter what and you don't want anything in return. it broke my heart thinking that
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i might not be able to ever see her again if i go back. even more so, i was afraid that she might not have a good life growing up without my support. it was a tough decision to make, but i did make it eventually and i stayed back. >> this is 1988. you are 40 years old. he talked about the fact that for those 40 years you'd never have that attachment they just couldn't get up and walk away from. >> that's right. i was able to walk away from everybody and not include rather shamefully major men's spouse. >> so the kbg does intend to let people walk away, especially in the united states. how did you -- i love this story. somewhat disturbing, but had to duke them than kbg to let you leave? >> i wanted to make sure that
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they would come after me or possibly even do harm to my german family. so as racking my brain, what'll he do do? what do i do? i need to tell them i'm not following orders. so i wrote a dear john letter and it went something like dear comrades, i have to tell you i decided not to come back because i've contract today and the only place i can get treatment if this country. and then i added some supporting information and actually trace it back to somebody i got the aids from end of work. i know they believed it. how do i know it? because i also told them to give my german wife the money that was saved on my account and they
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did. >> they told your german wife you had died of days. >> yes, they did. i know that because my son who is now 33 years old, we have been in contact the last five years. he told me the story of what it was like to be at the other end. >> your story shifts pretty dramatically when the fbi shows up at your door. how does the fbi find out about you in the first base? >> another germanic moment. you know, when i was in the clear, after three months with the resignation, i thought it was okay. it is sort of blend in with american society and live out my life as a middle-class an individual with the family. my wife and i bought a house.
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we had another child. everything was very normal. i forgot all about my past. unbeknownst to me, there was a fellow busy copying the notes in the kbg archives. he smuggled them out and then transcribe them and buried the stuff in the milk in and eventually at first he approached the cia. i believe the cia -- the american embassy, somebody an american embassy and didn't believe them. so he went to the british and they got them out of there. just after the soviet union came down. certainly they wouldn't have let them out that easily. so in a suitcase full of information and one piece of information was saying illegal.
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they didn't have much more. that came to the fbi and they started looking for jack barsky. they wouldn't have found me that there were too many jack barsky. pretty soon they zeroed in on the fellow who lived in a village in pennsylvania and started investigating me. now, they were very, very careful because it was at the time that there were a couple of really bad cases of espionage with moles in the cia and the dia. so they were concerned that i might be running somebody in the government and though it took them three, four years to investigate me very, very carefully and supposedly at that time, i was the number one case on their list of
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counterintelligence cases. and then, one day eventually they started to call for the kill so to speak. that was a tense moment, transmit. >> the manager said hello, angel riley. >> yes, i am. actually, i spent four days at a house. i'm on a book tour and we went to the lehigh valley and i spent some time, he hosted me and it's also the godfather to my last child, my daughter. we were really close. we were close in many respects. we like golf. politically had the same ideas and obviously we also have a similar background except at one point we were supposedly enemies. supposed to tell you sometimes you associate your up for the
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group and become an enemy of another group. individuals or the other group could be just as good a friend as the folks in your group. >> let me ask you a couple of broader cultural questions. when you are trying to explain to lay people like were coming here today, like phillip jennings from americans except he didn't kill a lot of people. what he think of that? especially the americans. a popular tv show based on the program. you just watch it and chuckle or do you go okay, there is some truth to this? >> the best show ever made because i'm going to be on as an extra. may 9th, episode 510. i don't have a speaking part, but i know i have a relationship with the creators and they know
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what they're doing. they are doing entertainment. what they are doing really well is the psychology of existence because it is constantly drawn to the american way of life. why don't we just stay here. she is the one who's bringing back their mind. that is quite realistic and the other thing is that guy really delicious when the daughter becomes a christian. but other than that, i'm not aware of the work i did. >> we talked about the drive to become america. one final question about all of us who grew up in the united state and avarice or nostalgia about americana. we grew up watching baseball or
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american movies. when i was seven years old. i can still quote you, and movies from when i was a kid. how much are when tissue embrace american culture. what do you say now is that they knew embrace most? are you yankees fan? are you yankees fan or is there you will love john hughes movies. you might not be the right generation for that. part of americana you really embrace. >> i lack some of that background. i became a yankees fan when my son became a baseball fan. so every birth day from a certain age on a tape into a yankees game and pay a lot of money for good seats. i understand baseball better than football. that part i like.
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what i liked the most about this country and this will not be sent and you might expect. it is the constitution and the bill of rights. if you go back and read what the founding fathers meant to create, it is awesome. unfortunately, there's some forces that work together away from matt that sort of makes me sad. >> we are opening up for questions. i'm sure you have son. if ua, amanda and shauna both have microphones. let them come to you. peter the executive director gets first question. handing it off. >> thank you very much for your presentation. you haven't talked about your collection. what kind of information did you
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collect and transmit back to the kbg? >> well, i was in political intelligence. quite honestly, i never handed any state secrets were handed them over. i was not in a position to do so. one of my tasks was to identify individuals who might be candidates for recruitment. i never knew what happened to those, whether people were being recruited, successfully recruited. i would occasionally, not periodically send reports on the mood -- the reaction of the american public to certain things. because i was living in society rather than looking at it from the outside. and then i did a few one-off
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tasks in towards the end of my tenure as they asked me to see if i could get my hands on the technology. people ask me, were you successful? probably not very much. so i've been illegal, i couldn't do things that the resident ages, folks of diplomatic cover couldn't do. for instance, i don't know if there still is, but the soviets were on the restriction they couldn't travel outside of 30 miles or whatever it was a d.c. or new york. if they did, they had to get permission. one time i was asked -- they
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actually first asked me if i was going to do this, if i was ready to do this and i've no idea why they asked that question but it must've been some extremely sensitive. go find a drop site someplace in new hampshire and when the time comes, we may ask you to collect some pain of a certain size. they told me it would've been a suitcase or something. i think it was most likely to be a go-between a mall in the united states and me to avoid and have direct contact with the resident agent. so you now, some of the value they ascribe to an undercover press. i also was supposed to observe the goings-on at a military check. the naval weapons station in red
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paint. i think it is still called carol. kind of odd because i was supposed to go there to see if there is any movement that could be preparing for war. had the operate in world war ii. lastly and again, in hindsight to me this backward thinking, the value of an illegal if they decide is being able to move around in the country this guy for good relations are really bad, they would still have son behind enemy lines. you can debate whether that makes a lot of sense, particularly when missiles fly around. >> in new york would not be a particularly good place to be. usually stayed behind all that
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much. >> first of all, thank you for sharing your fascinating story with us. it performs an article service. i also think that speaking as an intelligence officer, and you may have been more successful than you realized. in other words, a number of people you spot it or recruitment are not really sure what the follow-on what the follow on lies and it's possible they followed up on the people you spotted. find your story about the kbg fellow buried the information, that was victor metro to. the cia did turn him away. he had a trunk full of secret. the reason i understood that he turned him away, the officer at the time and they know who it was. thought that was just historical. this was probably not at the
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entrance. >> it wasn't that they just believed him. the fellow then took his story to the british and i understand there is a woman and they told her story and i spent it down. would you like some tea? they realized the importance of that trove of information. let me ask you one question. i was struck by the fact that when you first came, i think it was when you first came to the west, and you commented you were struck by all the colors. what really went the impact of the western way of life, the quality of life. it must've had an extraordinary impact. i always thought the people who came east and west would just impact on them so strongly. >> yeah, the material wealth was overwhelming. a couple of trips to west berlin
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i didn't get to see much. when i spend time in canada, montréal particularly in a big storm, department store and then i spent hours totally blown away by the rich assortment of things you can buy. i wanted some of that. and already, this was the beginning of a dichotomy that all of us flipped through and we coveted the good that came from a society that we wanted to destroy. data sent and we all buried. we did one of ink about it. it didn't make a dent with regard to my perception of capitalism versus socialism because the rationalization behind again was america and
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west germany were rich because they exploited the third world. they got all the while thought of south america and africa and so forth. that is what we were taught anyway. >> high. i'm from the german spy museum. i have two smaller questions. the first one, what do you think it is -- being born at far east in germany, [inaudible] in the second line as you mentioned that you saw some of these that turned out then. i've been living in germany for 32 years and never sold one of them. >> i just told you guys alive. i didn't know that.
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interesting. >> as an historian, you basically have a lot of the marshall plan of america and west germany. so maybe there were budweiser and others. that's my story and i'm sticking to it. it's an interesting question. we handed off to the kbg because you are potentially so good? >> well, i'm not sure that even my first con at ways. i thought so but in hind sight, it actually was pretty well walled off. the german news magazine did some research and they were looking for anything about me from the archives with no trace of it. i'm one of the few germans who
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doesn't have one in there. i'm guessing somehow the russians got to me first and then told me to stay away from the sky. i don't know what mechanics were, with most of them. they had a couple thousand and west germany. and so, you wonder why the russians, but they had me go there first. >> not that i know who you are. comes with a microphone. >> my question had to do with the family dynamic. a jet rather shows up at your door, says we are the fbi. how does this go to your american family who had i.% didn't about your history and
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building back that trust, my dad is someone you didn't quite know what their back story was. >> this was one thing that i told vince that i don't remember at all, but i once told her, we had an argument and i tried to make clear to her what a risk to stay back with her and my daughter chelsea. i was a time when the fbi added doug in my kitchen. they had me state and on tape. that backfired by the way because her reaction once i'm not legal either. >> at the back story behind that. she had married you to stay in the country because you are a u.s. citizen. >> yes, thank you for pointing that out.
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>> we have to save time for signing. that's what i'm trying to catch a ride. >> she was more legal at that point than i was. anyway, my kids were react very positively. i waited for both of them until they were 18 years old. when i told my daughter, she cried because how do you prove to a child how much you love them? that was the big one other than maybe throwing yourself in front of a bus. my son, when he heard the story, his eyes grew bigger and bigger because he knew me as a really not lurking just jacking corporate america. i could never explain to him what he did because i was a manager at the time. he once told his friend that i overheard him. he just said they office all
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day. all of a sudden the faceless bureaucrat became an international spy. said dad, they're going to write a book. >> speaking of the book. >> please join me in thanking jack barsky to taking the time to speak with us today. have a book signed, say hello. [inaudible conversations]

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