>> on the fight author discussion from this year's san antonio book festival, features mark up de -- updegrove, look to go relationson between george h.w. bush and george w. bush. discussion. >> folks, we're just going to get started. someone close the door back there, please.

thank you all for coming on this blustier day. my name is dan goodgame, the vice president for communication for a cloud computing company in san antonio, 7,000 employees and five continents. and our author today is mark up degrove who is ceo of the lbj foundation in austin, and before that he was director of the lbj presidential library there and just any of you familiar with it know how much energy and creativity mark put into that. he is really a thought leader about the presidency generally, he is in hot demand on all kinds of division public affairs programs, and writes for the top publications about presidents and the presidency so we're fortunate to have him. it's a special treat treat for me because mark and i are old colleagues from "time magazine"

back when people read magazines and there was a "time" magazine and i was on the write are side he was on the publishing side so they got more money but it is to his credit he very quickly realizes we had more fun. so he moved over to the writing side pretty quickly and one of the rare people who has the blend of talents to move back anding for between those worlds, which i think served you pretty well at the lbj library. >> sure did. >> the second reason it's a treat us because i had the privilege of covering the bush 41 administration as out who correspondent, and -- white house correspondent and traveling around the world with president bush getting to know his son, all his sons and getting to know the man who would become 43. and so just a lot of fun to revisit those days through reading and rereading mark's book. and i'm in a better position than the average bear to tell you what a remarkable book mark

putting to, how measured and insightful it is. i think we're in for a right to. now, get it started with questions and then open the floor to questioned from the audience. i'm told we'll have a microphone to pass around so when you have a question and we call on you, wait for the microphone to get to you because this is being recorded. might want to watch your grammar. and after the talk, mark will be signing books in he signing tent, which is next to the brightly marked barnes & noble become store tent on augusta treat and a portion of every sale goes to the children reading programs and other activities of the san antonio library foundation so please open your wallets and refresh your bookshelves. so with that let's get started. mark, what gave you the idea for this book and what made you want to do it? >> well, i'm happy to answer the

question but i want to pay homage to my friend, dan, who i haven't seen in some time. dan was the white house bureau chief for "time" magazine while i was running the west coast for time, and wrote a marvelous book on george w. bush called "marching in place". >> hw. >> excuse me. i'm mixing up my bushes and we only two minutes into the program. but a book called "march thing place" so prescient. i read it at the time in 1992 and reread it upon riding the book, and he and his colleague, our mutual friend, michael duffy, really nailed george w. bush. it portended his dem 1992 and predict he would get a fair shake and n history and one of our better president, which is the case. dan, this was book that just had

to be written. the bushes are a political dynasty. they -- he have only had one other father-son duo hold the presidency and that was john adams and john quincy adams. but there was 24 years between the presidency of the two men, john adams, the second president, and john quincey adam, the sixth. johns a domes -- john adam was not a resource for his son while his son was in the white house so he didn't have muff of a direct effect on his son's president si. might have had influence on him a runup to his presidency. only saw each other one time and john adams was narled and toothless in the last 1 months of his life was a five-day stage coach ride away in quincy,

massachusettss but the bushes come alonging are eight years is within one another. george h.w. bush leaves the president? i 1993, having been defeated by bill clinton as you more or less predicted, dan, and george w. bush comes along eight years later. one represents the end of one era, the cold war, with the tearing down of the berlin wall. the other, the entrance so into a new era, the war of terror with the fall of the twin towers. so, i can remember there was a lot of speculation. you are in new york, i think, during the george w. bush years, as was i, for most of the -- i'd be at cocktail parties and people would imagine these shakespearean mcnations between the two bushes. what was really going on. what did old 41 really think with what 43 was doing in iraq and was he really schooling him

by using brent scowcroft as a mouthpiece. all these things were thinking were happening. why was george w. bush in iraq? trying to prove himself to his dad? was he trying to -- >> get him back for trying as nate him. >> right. so many things. this is a story that needed to be told, and fortunately the elder bush and the younger bush agreed and cooperated. so i was delighted tell the story. >> before you sat down to report -- before before you reported you read everything you could. quite a few trees felled in books and articles online about the bushes and then you went about, i thinks a mr. by, talking to everybody who knew them, family, friends, people who worked in their administrations. at the end of that what sticks tout you as the incident that surprised you the most that added to the understanding of

the two of them. >> there are a lot of revelations, again. the bushes are famously circumspect. very wary of psycho basketball. not people don't hang out on the couch. so we all have this view of what i this father-son dynamic would look like while the son was president, we administrative conceptions. one -- miscon sense one, a was that the father disapproved off his son going into iraq. there was a wonderful symmetry of events. in 1990 the bush clan, with whom dan spent a great time of time, had gathered at camp david, as they did every year of george h.w. bush's presidency. but this particular year george w. bush had a lot on his mind.

he was about to launch the ground war in kuwait to drive out the iraqi captors and having been a van veteran of war himself, he knew the profund profundity of that decision and has dream during that holiday in camp david, dreams his father died in 1972 is once again alive, and he hears this while he is out on a golf outing. someone says his father is in a hotel room not far from the golf course where he is playing. sew jumps in the car and goes over and opens the door and there's his father, and his words, big, strong, highly respected. just as he he remembered him. and he throws his arms around him and say, miss you very much. flash forward a dozen years and improbable by, the bush family is gathered at camp david around the presidency of george w. bush, and george w. bush has a

big decision to make. whether to march into baghdad and take out saddam hussein, same enemy bedeviled his father. but he has his father and he's right there and it's he one and and only time he asks his father what to do. she said, son you know how tough war is but if the man notice complying, eluding to u.n. sanctions, the provisions put on the agreement that saddam hussein made you have no choice. so, that is just remarkable and -- so ethic in so many respects. why didn't it eh go back to old man for more advice and why didn't the talk further but is? all things are questions i delved interest more deeply be talking to the two men. it is a fascinating symmetry and

we may well never again have a father-son president or a mother-daughter 0, a mother-son or any kind of combination like that in our history. >> there's one detail of the dream, weird detail that it attach to that part of the dream was george h.w. bushes playing golf on a good golf course and can he dream is his father is next door at a muni, a letters golf course. >> who knows what that means. that it doesn't fit there is the bushes -- all the bush offspring of the george h.w. bush offbring, enormous respect for prescott bush, his father, this larger than life figure and that didn't quite -- i couldn't quite reconcile that either, dan. in the same way that george w. bush -- the kids that gorge and

barbara bush had, all revere george h.w. bush, almost this -- this larger than life figure in their lives. they have this absolute palpable he reverence you sense when you're around them. that's sort of hard to navigate when you're telling the story. >> you're an expect on lbj and i wonder how you compare and contrast lbj first with 41 and then 43. what's in common and what is different. >> well, they're all from texas. >> automatic texans. >> consider themselves from -- they consider themselves texans in a major way. i think the one thing that strikes me -- we were talking about george h.w. bush's legacy before the talk today. i think that he may well be remembered as our best one-term president. certainly the best one-term president of the 20th century. there's no doubt in my mind. other presidents who compete for that, maybe back-handed compliment, james polk and

others, but i think he'll be considered one of the best. so his one of the few presidents who will see a clear indication of his legacy before he dies. he starting to get a sense now of how he'll be remembered. i think that impression will hold. george w. bush, however, the jury is out on his legacy. the -- >> getting better lately. >> looking better lately. i think what he is getting -- i hope my book helps -- people appreciate that he is a decent and good man, truly is. particularfully comparison with our current commander in chief. there are inevitable comparisons you'll make between our living presidents and our dead ones and the current occupant of the white house but hi is getting his due for a decent person.

didn't go to iraq for oil or to vindicate his father. that's nonsense. but there is going to be at least two generations before we get any clear indication on what history will say about him. that same was true for lbj. we're finally getting a sense now of how lbj should be remembered and that is because vietnam, which is a principal part of lbj's legacy, was so divisive, it took that long for parks to recede. we're remembering him for the great society, particularly civil rights which built the foundation for modern america so he is looking better than he did when he left office in 1969. considered the top ten of our four 44 president, 4 because trump is the 45th president, but grover cleveland was both

the 22nd and 24th president. so there have been 44 men who held the office. george w. bush is hard to say what his legacy will be but it's going to take us i think at least that long for parks to receipt around his presidency -- for passions to recede around his presidency. >> i asked that question about 43 of the father of a good friend in midland, texas, who had known 43 very well. they lived near each other in midland and he also known lyndon johnson pretty well. i said, judge, how would you compare the two? he said the picture of lyndon johnson where we has -- the man by the -- that was lyndon johnson and there was a force field around him. and he you would promise anything to get out of the force fold and with george w. bush when he announce -- when george h.w. bush who said he was running for offers, we said we

all have to get involved to make sure this good man does not get hurt and and he said that is another form of power. >> i think that's right. the hallmarks of the bush family are -- one hallmark is humility and george w. bush told in the relation to donald trump is one thing my father told me is the most important thing in leadership is having some humility. particularly when you're me president. you have to in the what you know -- have to know what you know and concede what you don't know, and bring around you the people who are experts on those topics and rely on them, and know that you can take that information, co less is in your mind and make a decision. but you don't have to be the expert. never going to be the expert. there wasn't a great deal of humility with lyndon johnson. he had his strengths but humble

is not a word you would -- that would redly come to mind when you think of lyndon johnson. >> the title of your book came from something w said do you. >> she spring of 2016, we were thinking about titles for the book and my original title was "the diplomat and the decider." the dip plot being george h.w. bush the decider being -- >> this is better. >> then it was very clear in the spring of 2016 that hillary clinton would be the democratic nominee for president and donald trump would be the republican nominee, and it was also clear to me that regardless of who won the election -- there was last of a kind of republicanism in the meantime, george w. bush

purportedly said to a bunch of aides in texas, i may the last republican president. when i went to see him a week or two later he said the same thing to me. and i went back to new wife and said now can call the book that at all and she said, this is exactly what you can call the book because you just got sanctioned from the 43rd 43rd president of the united states. >> you married well. >> very well. a good adviser. so it was -- it was very clear that even if donald trump won the presidency, that a type of republican is this establishment republican jim would be out of fashion, and may become an -- >> is that true? ten years from now will we look back and donald trump will be an

aberration and the republican party bit be like something that the bushes -- >> define what the establishment republican -- and george w. bush and i first met in 2010. we had shaken hand but i first interviewed him in 2010 for texas monthly. at the time he was deeply concerned about the nativism, protectionism, isolationism he was seeing in the united states. this is eight years ago. and deeply concerned that we would no longer be as engaged in the world as we should be because in his view if america doesn't play a real in the world there's a vacuum that no one else can fill. and other republicans presidents felt the same way. look at the great achievements of republican apparatuses they're about our engage independent the world. richmond nixon will be known for water but also be known for opening china.

gerald ford is best foreign policy accomplish immigrants the helsinki accords which helped pave the way for the end of the cold war. reagan you think of standing in front of the berlin wall saying, what? mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. we're party and country that stands for the tearing down of walls and the building of bridges, not the build offering walls. and so -- building of walls. we were seeing something very different from donald trump. whether it us -- your question, dan, whether that returns or not i don't know. i'd like the think this is an aberration and this is a failed experiment. not that i -- toy end want this country to fail but i do think that there's a role that we need play in the world, and foreign policy -- don't see foreign policy as a zero sum game as the

current administration sees its. it remains to be seen. there's a great book that dan knows well by are her she is lenger called the cycle -- arthur she is slangier and how we wax and wane and being engaged in world and being isolationists. there are all kind trends in our history and we are just at the extreme of one trend. >> good time to open questions from the floor. >> i want to circle back to your comment about the bushes being humble, and i think more but papa bush but -- i see that as a

significant contrast in their styles. i'd like to get your comments. >> i think you're referring to -- >> host: mission accomplished. >> there seemed to be a lot of hubris in bushes a, and a lot of swagger. he would attribute that to the state we it? right now, him being a texan to a large extent. >> what did he sigh when people called -- accused him of swaggering, he said we in texas we call it walking. >> that might not have been particularly evident when he was president but if you spend time around george w. bush there's a certain humility there. i think he can be very defer rein shall at times, stumps you don't readily see when you look at the public image of george w. bush but i think- -- one thing

he'll talk about is -- talked to me about it at agreeing length is what informed his presidency. he said that the biggest influence in his life before we was 40 was his father. the biggest influence after he was 40 was jesus christ. and talk about the humility that he learned as a result of taking up the bible, and i think that -- there was a statement that he made to bob woodward, which you all may be familiar with, when bob woodward asked him why he didn't seek his father's counsel further in the white house he said there's a higher father i appeal to. and there's a certain truth to that, given the history of george w. bush's life. on the doorstep of middle age, at the threshold, he takes up religion. quits drinking, almost cold turkey, and he accepts jesus christ as his lord and savior

and it changes his life. and it does make him a more humble human being but i can't square that with the public image we saw of bush except he was also a texan. >> like to jump in with a followup. the george w. bush i knew when hi father was president is clearly smart, charming, great sense of humor, when he wanted to and then he could be a bit of a punk, frankly. just defensive of his nature a way that wasn't very attractive, and when he announced he was going to run for governor, i said to mutual friend, sam 2009, gwen, i said anne richardss will crew him up and then sam was call hing me and saying he is doing great, not taking the bait, very calm, keeping a sense of humor and just seemed to be this transformation in terms of

temperment and it's generally attributed to, well, he found religion and stop drinking, and you think there's more to it than that? are there other ingredient to that transformation? >> dan is absolutely right. there are was a -- i thing one thing that you -- that he had before that transformation is the able to be very disciplined. he is an incredibly disciplined guy. for instance, painting, great example. he wanted to be a great painter and has thrown himself into understanding the art of painting. he has done a pretties a michelle -- admirable job from a guy who his with a said didn't have an artistic bone in his body. he wanted to be a good golfer and cracked down and became a pretty good golfer. a very interesting guy. one of the misconceptions is -- goes back to that race you were talking about with ann richards -- is that he was not

political heir apparent in the bush family. that he was the ne'er-do-well, he was the screwup, and that is largely -- >> jeb was the man. >> jeb was the man. that's largerly mythological. george w. bush ran a very good campaign for congress in west texas in 1978 when he was 32 years old. >> a campaign -- >> the -- this is in a heavily democratic district. george w. bush wasn't expected to win the republican nomination,let alone run a pretty good racing in that district. ken hans was the favorite. and yet he came within a couple of percentage points of winning that race. largely because ken hans exploded him being a carpet bagger, ostensibly a carpet bagger. tells a joke but a limousine that glide up to a ranch ins we e west texas with connecticut

license plates and the window goes down and the gentleman in the car asks the rancher where a certain ranch was ask the rancher says go up the road, take a right past the first cattle gord and it's your first level. the guy in the limousine says, so, what color uniform will that cattle guard be wearing? and he said -- when it drove away,ry below damned if i didn't see connecticut plates on that. believe that was george w. bush. so it reinforced this notion that he was a carpet bagger and a yankee, sort of elitist, which is a misconception. if you know george w. bush. but he ran a good race there when his father ran for president, as you know, dan, because you covered this so well, george w. bush was probably his father's closest advisor and george w. bush moves with his family and his two young girls to washington to help his father wage that campaign. they're largely successful. he sees that his son has a

natural political mind, and so -- but the misconception comes in 1994 when jeb bush is running for his state house in florida and george w. bush is for ours here in texas, and jeb was squaring off against a candidate who was thought be easily beatable, lawton chiles, and president bush u-was going up against an riches who had a -- ultimately he triumphs, jeb loses and he is the best position become his father's successor in the white house. even his mother says, he can't win hitch did say -- true story. that's absolutely contradict. but i think it's a great misconception that he is not a natural politician and that jeb was or is. >> i think we had another question over here somewhere. anyone?

>> [inaudible] >> i have a comment. >> get the mic to you. >> i just have a comment, not a question. talking about george w. bush's artwork, i do not work for the -- i'm affiliated with the -- they're having an art' exhibit display this summer, i think it starts in june but it's the summer. check it out. >> a remarkable -- i think it is a testament to his character that he is -- the subjects of his paintings are their very soldiers that he put in harm residents way in iraq and afghanistan. spends a great deal of time with these folks. has got ton know them over the years and so i think those paintings are very revealing on a number of different levels. >> someone else? i thought i saw another hand other. questions?

>> i've got a few more. w's relationship with bob bullock, leading democrat in texas, his father's relationship after office with bill clinton. this is something that seems now -- wasn't that long ago but seems like it was another century that people would have those kind close relationships with people from the other partiment i wonder what you -- what you learned about that in your research. >> you saw this in washington when your were washington bureau chief for "time." there was a time when bipartisanship was a natural institchings, the way you got things down. talk about lyndon johnson. he is the civil rights president but wouldn't have been without the northern republicans. civil rights was a bipartisan effort. the southern democrat were standing in the way of civil rights. the way to get things done is through consensus billing and forms relationships that come to bear when you're trying to get things done.

the relationship that dan mentioned between george w. bush and bob bullock comes when george w. bush becomes governor of the state and bob bullock is the powerful lieutenant governor. many people say the lieutenant governor is more powerful than the governor in some ways he is. so he really needed to have that relationship if you wanted to get the reform through the-that was part of his agenda, which education reform in particular. and he and bullock become this very unlikely pair of friends. they're deeply devoted to one another and there's great mutual respect between the two men so much so that democrat bob bullock says that george w. bush has to run for president in 2000, and is one of his staunchest and most passionate supporters. flash forward to 2004, and there's a tsunami that strikes

southeast asia and george w. bush pair his father with bill clinton, former rivals -- >> two more different people never born. >> unbelievable. dramatically different. here's bill clinton, who is -- >> sloppy -- >> always tardy. exactly. and then there's george w. geor. bush, which means always on time, never talking to much. and so there's this odd couple, and it's a testament to them that they became very dear friends, and continue to be. >> the family called them the two amigos or something. >> they call them the -- my brother from another mother. went up to kennebunkport and that's what the bushes called him. a wonderful sense of humor the

bushes have and people gate clear sense of now. it wasn't as manifest when he was in the white house during some very difficult years but there's a great story about bush when he is supporting supportine president's emergency plan for aids relief. little known about george w. bush pumped billion offed dollars into africa during the aids crisis, thinking about the biblical proverb, to much -- to whom much is given, much is required. hi felt we were in a position to help save many of the people who were ravaged by this disease, that was ripping itself way through africa. so, he invites bono to the white house. the lead singer for u2 president bush prides him another nothing knowing anything but popular

culture even when hi does. his chief of staff wants to milwaukee sure that george w. bush knows who bono is before he cams into to the oval office. he said, mr. president you know bono is, and bush says, yeah, rock star. guy starts walking away. and he says, used to be merit to cher. -- used to be married to cher. >> al can go. -- one part of the book that particularly struck me, you know how you read history at different times and it means a different thing to you. i don't know how many of you are familiar with hayden white, who was the author of the idea which seems now that every generation needs to write history in its own way, from its own perspective, and i was reading the pat buchanan section of your book and i thought, wow. covered his challenge in the primaries to bush 41.

and you read it now in the context of donald trump and i just would love your thoughts on was pat buchanan like the morning star of trumpism. it was like make first. >> that's exactly right. >> a lot of nativism, talk about protectionism, what do you think. >> i think that's exactly right. george w. bush be was never -- george h.w. bush was never trusted by the republican right, always hem him at bay, rather him warily, bush tried to come across as being very diversify win their trust, after all the vice president for ronald reagan for eight years, which i think largely led to his being elected in 1988. but he never really engendered their trust. and pat buchanan ran against him in 1992, and talk about fire and

fury, as dan indicated. many of the things that we saw from donald trump in 2016, we were seeing from pat buchanan in 1992, particularly when he was defeated for the nomination and spoke to the party faithful at the convention in 1992 in houston. >> take back our cities block-by-block. >> exactly. bordered on demagoguery which is a lot of what we saw from donald trump in 2016. these are -- there is populist fervor that springs up in american life throughout the course of our history. donald trump didn't invent that. this didn't start with the election cycle of 2016. it's very clear when you look back at 1992, that it was alive and well, albeit advocated by a much smaller number. >> there's a line of argument that i guess the crude way to

put it is that trump is the fault of the bushes and the clintons and these establishment dynasties who elevated themselves and their narrow view of the world, their elite u.s. view of the world above americans with whom they had fallen out of touch. is there anything to that you thing? >> i don't know. that's hard to say because i don't know that the bushes were necessarily out of touch. i think you could say that the trump presidency owes itself -- we could have a five, hour session on the and is not scratch the surface. you can attribute it to george w. bush in one sense. look at iraq, to some extent, afghanistan, as american adventurism. those were wars that had gone awry. i think we became more ice lacist perhaps as-do --

isolationist as a consequence look back at the cycles of american history and the gargantuan advance we made in progressivism during the obama presidency, the first african-american to take office. that's astounding when you look at our history. and you look at the progressive policies he espoused. the supreme court's decision to legalize gay marriage. then we were talking about transplantation sex -- transsexual rights. that wasn't even on the radar screen. the trump presidency is a major reaction that. >> i think -- if could i make one pore point, dan, going back to the business we were inch i think there was some false equivalency in the media to that is responsible for donald trump's rise. donald trump got great ratings.

he got eyeball's then internet, got viewers on -- in broadcast, and he is good copy in the parlance of the old media world, and the media companies made some major compromises in order to exploit that. when he became candidate -- the republiccage candidate, there was almost -- in the us a as stones by balancing -- balancing the two, people would say donald trump did -- you have the hillary rodham clinton emails, the e-mail server, so there was this false equivalency that played out and i think to some degree character became a wash in 2016. people would say, yeah, i'm voting for trump and he's a bad guy but hillary clinton is bad, too, so i'm going to invite --

vote for donald trump because he is going to put america first, or because i want my job in the steel mill again or in the coal mines. and i -- >> we tried these establishment people from both parties and that didn't work out so well for me and my community so let's try something else. >> i think that's part of it. >> i want to ask you about a really annoying thing that happened to me after we did our work, people waugh talked to many of them very helpful and once the book come otherwise they said you need to know but those anecdote. i said where were you when we were writing the book? why are you telling me this now? have you that nat? people called and said, okay, now i can tell you. >> there's a lot of the record stuff but the stuff i got, i was so happy with. again, as a historian you want to tell a story in the way it hasn't been told before. want to go to this source of the

story and if you can. you want to disspell misconceptions. a story not the book but a that relates to barbara bush that i love. last year i did a speech at the kennedy bunk port public library. the night before we had seen the elder bushes for dinner. >> which would hold 30 people. >> a little more than that. an old vaudeville venue, and it was a little bit bigger than that but very historic place, and so we were with the bushes the evening before, and barbara bush said, george and i are coming tomorrow. i said i'm honored. she said tell me the format again? i say i'll speak for 40 minutes and take ten minutes of questions she said make it half an hour no questions. then she got in the car and

drove off. i spoke for 29 minutes. >> you don't mess with barbara bush. >> yes, ma'am. >> we have a microphone for you. >> speaking of barbara bush, i wonder what their similarities and differences were as husbands to the first ladies and did you see anything that was -- stories where they similar in threating their husbands -- >> that's a good question. >> i think they're both exceptionally close relationships. george w. bush and barbara bush relationship and the george w. and lawyer relationship. you need a spouse when you go into politics who can support you and compliment you and you have that in beth of those spouses in barbara and laura bush. the laura-george w. relationship

is interesting because in so many ways they're polar opposites. talk about odd couples. you couldn't have predicted this, this relationship. and yet they really work. one of the promises that george w. make dozen laura in 1978 when he marries her when he is running for congress, he said you'll never have to make a public speech. >> host: she rolled her eyes. >> they didn't have a honeymoon. they went right on the campaign trail. she would recognize that she is given -- he's given her a life she never would have had but for him, and i'm not sure it would have been possible for george w. bush to have the life he has had without her. they're perfectly complimentary souls in many respect. >> the two first ladies are

alike in that they can call them out using humor and teasing and so forth? what was it laura said after the wanted dead or alive -- going to get him, bushy. >> this show you how far we have -- how different things are. so, when osama bin laden was at large, and we were launching the biggest manhunt in history, george w. bush said, there's an old poster out west, i believe, that read, wanted, dead or alive, and he is almost immediately lambasted for this cowboy rhetoric, which fits into the stereo type you talk but earlier. this swaggering texan who is a cowboy, and she says -- by way of repry.ing him, bushy, you

going going toget him? >> and brash barbara did that. >> you need that from a spouse. somebody who is going to tell you the truth. support you but give you candid feedback. going back to lbj, great telephone tape of lbj calling lady bird johnson and they're relationship is like george w. and laura and he calls her after his second press conference and she gives him this long credit distinct at the very end she says, i give it a b-plus. and i play that for the obamas when they were at the lbj library for the civil rights summit four years ago and there were -- have you been to library? please come of the it's a wonderful experience. but through the exhibit you have hand sets where you can hear these wonderful conversations of lbj contemporaneous

contemporaneously and this conversation is something that michelle obama listened to. while barack obama was on the phone in another part of the exhibit. she says, oh, barack has to hear this. he listens the the conversation and put is down and says, some things never change. >> i think we're at time. thank you all for coming and thank you, mark. >> thank you very much for being here. ... the tv is on twitter and's book and we want to hear from you. treat us