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from you. tweet us, twitter.com/booktv. or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook.com/booktv. >> the book is titled "first in line: prime ministers, vice presidents and the pursuit of power." the third book by kate p andersen brower. thank you very much for being with us. >> guest: thanks for having me. >> host: let me begin with some news from the book which is the selection of mike pence to be vice president. walk us new the process and who was involved. >> guest: well, for a while donald trump had michael flynn on his list of people that he wanted to consider. newt gingrich was a finalist. i interviewed a republican lawyer in town who did the vetting for john mccain also as we talked a bit about sarah palin, which was fascinating. and he said that it terrifies him, and those were his words, that there is no fbi process involved. and so you could have had potentially a president michael

flynn because there is no fbi vetting. cabinet officials get better vetting than vice presidents do. is so he. said, you know, it's absolutely terrifying, and i just thought that was a fascinating. the t vetting process is intention. they have these white collar attorneys who do it for free, and it's kind of like being a private eye. it's a lot of fun for them. i interviewed hillary clinton's vetter for the 2016 campaign too, and he described the process and how he would dispatch attorneys all over the country to interview, you know, times kaine's nursery schoolteacher and things like that. i think vetting is fascinating process. >> host: and the lessons from past mistakes like thomas eagleton with george mcgovern. >> guest: absolutely. and i talk about that a bit in the book and how there are these very detailed questionnaires, hundreds -- i mean, dick cheney was, when he was doing the vetting for bush, which is funny that he was then chosen as his vp, of course, he had 100

questions where a lot of the or very deeply personal questions are done on the phone though. they are not written down because no one wants any evidence, any written evidence of that. so,ne for instance, when sarah palin's daughter was pregnant, she actually spoke to the lawyer or about this on the phone. and one of the most fascinating things, i think, was in 2008 when a.b., the republican lawyer, was vetting john mccain's running mate, the main question heed asked was if you had osama bin laden -- this was in 2008 -- in your sights and you knew that taking him out would involve mass casualties of innocent civilians, what would you do? wd he said sarah palin's answer was the best. she said i would do it, and then i would get on my news and pray to god for forgiveness. and he was just taken aback by how. shrewd and how perfect an answer that was. >> host: with regard to vice president pence, you write the following: at this final, decisive meeting, it was melania

trump -- the aloof former model -- who drew the bottom line. whoever is chosen must be, in her words, clean, she insisted. that meant no affairs, no messy financial edge tanglements. in short, it meant no drama. because as you write, newt gingrich but z also on the short list. >> guest: absolutely. and here was someone who was married three times, had a very messy past, and i thit i says something about who melania trump is. there's another story in the book i have about president trump saying that she would do an interview with a fox news host and promising this interview, and she said, no, i'm not going to do that interview. so she does, you know, she's very stubborn, but she's also shrewd, and she's also involved. >> host: did walter mondale change the vice presidency? >> guest: absolutely. he was the first vice president to have the weekly lunch with the president. ir had the west wing office. and he and jimmy carter really outlined an agreement that has

ndsted to this day with obama and biden reinforcing that agreement where every piece of paper that came across president carter's desk walter mondale had access to. he wanted to come and go into meetings as he pleased and really have no definitive line between his access to the president. everything about the vice presidency depends on the power that the president is willing to give the vice president. >> host: because you write in the book not only his tenure as vice president, but his agreement to become jimmy carter's running mate, quote: the deal between mondale and carter included three major requirements. unimpeded access to the president, the same access to classified material as the presidentac and unimpeded institutional responsibilities. he also, as you indicated, wanted a west wing office which he got, and he wanted a weekly lunch with the president which he also got. >> guest: absolutely. and walter mondale's fascinating. i interviewed every living former vice president, so all six of them including vice president mondale. and he actually, i learned he

called the german ambassador at one point and apologized on behalf g of the united states wn president trump did not shake chancellor merkel's happened. so this is -- hand. so this is somebody who is very much aware of what's going on, still very attuned to american politics and watching kind of surprised at the turn the political landscape has taken. >> host: and you paint a picture of the relationship between john kennedy and lyndon johnson and how that changed when kennedy became the nominee. and with joe biden you write the following, obama clearly had the upper hand in their relationship. accordingg to ron klain, his perspective was simple if not condescending. this is my house, thesehi are my things. i'm interested in your views, joe, i want you to be happy here, but you are a guest in my house. >> guest: i love that you're a. best in myt house, because that really sums up the vice presidency so well.

they are completely at the service of the president. and i think you see that now, of course, with mike pence and donald trump. but you did even see it with joe biden and barack obama. and when i was a white house reporter at bloomberg news, i never got the sense that there was any tension there. so that's what i thought was so fascinating doing this reporting, and i interviewed vice president biden about it. it wasn't love at first sight for joe biden and barack obama. si did take time for them to build trust. but, of course, by the end of those eight years, they did something that no other modern prime president and vice president have done, they actually grew closer over those a eight years together, and that's unprecedented. >> host: who had the most acrimonious relationship? >> guest: i mean, if you go back, i would say eisenhower and nixon, that was not a great relationship. izeenen hour wouldn't even endorse -- eisenhower wouldn't even endorse nixon. he was asked by a reporter what the vice president's greatest

accomplishment had been, and he said i'll have to get back to you, and he never did. of course, johnson and kennedyed had a very fraught relationship, but more currently i think dick cheney and george w. bush. their relationship really unraveled towards the end. >> host: do you think that george w. bush was serious in naming a replacement in 2004 to dick cheney? >> guest: i think that they seriously considered it even more seriously than president obama did, because there was, there was thought of replacing biden with hillary. and someone who worked for obama told me that, you know, the only person who would have been less happy about that than joe biden would be hillary clinton. she did notwhbe want to be vice president. a lot of people don't want to be vice president. it's a difficult job. but i think that, i think that it's an incredible opportunity and especially for someone like mike pence who very well could have lost his race for governor of indiana. now he is in a position where he could one day be president, and

his name is known nationally are. very few people knew who he was outside of indiana just a couple w years ago. so it's a steppingstone. but, of course, it's also infantizing too. i interviewed mike done lin who worked for joe biden, and he says the vice presidency makes you wonder or if you matter very much. and i thought that was a great quote because here's joe biden who was in the senate for almost four decades. like lyndon johnson, had incredible power. and then he's made subservient. >> host: did the trump plane have legitimate problems that forced donald trump to spend the night in indianapolis that led in part to the selection of mike pence? >> guest: we will never know the real answer to that. i know that paul manafort or played a large role in mike pence's selection along with melania, which i thought was more surprising. >> host: tell the story. >> guest: well, that they were in indiana, eric trump and donald trump were there

campaigning in indiana with mike pence. there was a problem with the plane. stay overnight. because of that, they had dinner with karen pence, mike pence's wife, and mike peps. the next morning they had breakfast at the governor's mansion. the children, ivanka, donald trump jr., flew in that night, so the next morning they all had breakfast together, and it's kind of an amazing scene where they're all sitting at the breakfast table at the governor's mansion in indiana, and is mike pence and karen pence serve them breakfast, and the trump children are shocked there's not a staff there serving them. i think this fascination that the trumps have with the pences is really interesting. the pences had less than $15,000 in their bank account, and to someone like donald trump, that's really shockingly little amount of money. and they hold hands, they're deeply religious. i think that there's one story in the book where the pences say they're praying for the trumps, and the trumps are just kind of taken aback and say what do you mean you're praying for us?

they said we're praying for guidance and leadership and for your well-being. and it's almost hike are they're just an alien -- it's an alien concept to donald trump, and i think that's what's so fascinating about this old couple. >> host: this is your first book, the residents, first women and now first in line. have you thought about your next project? >> >> guest: i have been mulling over some ideas. i will say it's a very -- i write nonpartisan history books, you know? i really am not taking a political stand. i'm a reporter. but things are so divided now, it's been, it's certain certainly a more difficult landscape than it was in 2015 when the residents came out, and ids think it was relatively qui. now the news is, as you know, so chaotic. >> host: let's yet to your phone calls. from texas, daniel is first up. good morning, independent line. >> caller: hello. >> host: good morning, caller. how are you, sir? >> caller: doing just fine. >> host: go ahead with your

question. >> caller: okay. i was listening to her, what she was saying. mike pence was picked for vice president because donald trump needed to get to the religious conservatives. and he's a devout christian. y'all make fun of him all the eftime. i'm sure that woman is trying to sell a book, she don't know nothing about christians there. we're to be scorned and spit on because we're mostly nonviolent, so we can be made fun of without retribution. >> guest: well, i am christiany myself, so i certainly don't make fun of mike pence's religion. there is a separation of church and state in this country, and so i do point out in the book, you know, when he was head of the republican conference when he was in congress, on the wall

of the conference room one of the first elements of his credo was glorify god. and as someone who is christian myself, i do think there should be a separation of church and state, but i certainly think that he is a moral person. he did have a bible that would be open on his desk every day when he was governor of indiana. he is deeply devout. he does stand by that. but you can't deny that the access hollywood tape, for instance, caused problems for the pences, because they would not behave in that manner that the president behaves in. and so i think there's an obvious charges of hypocrisy do come up, and you cannot ignore that. >> host: the weekend thatt that access hollywood video was made public, when did donald trump and mike pence have a phone conversation? >> guest: i believe -- i mean, it was a couple of days, i believe, where they weren't taking his calls, and then

president trump -- and i have in the book he calls up mike pence and karen pence and asks to apologize to both of them for the tape. and i interviewed mike pence's brother greg who said my brother would never have behaved in ma manner. and, of course, it was shocking. been you talk to people around the pences, they go quiet when you ask about the access hollywood tape because it was something that they had to work through, especially karen pence. >> host: our guest is kate andersen brower. our next guest -- caller is from oklahoma city, robert, how are you? >> caller: good morning,in stev. how are you this morning? >> host: we're great, how are you. >> caller: i'm wonderful. two things that i see that nobody in the united states are talking about. something happened, steve, when barack obama was president of the united states. he allowed the monroe doctrine to be alleviated that stood for many, many years. the second thing is that i've

been trying to call for years on this, you've had this on quite a bit, and that is the -- [inaudible] agreement that has all these people migrating all over the world and having no place to go. because turkey is, part of nat. but that agreement, which was instituteed in, i believe, 19 -- it was 1916. in 1916 -- >> host: robert, i've got to scwump in because it is off topic. if you want to bring it back to the book that our guest has written, we're happy to take your question. >> caller: well, they're trying to cut down president trump about what has happened -- this happened, this stuff happened on barack obama's watch. when the people came, when the

pope and the archbishop of the russian orthodox church met in cuba, are you familiar with that? most people have forgotten that. >> host: i'm not but, robert, thank you. we're going to move on unless you want to respond to what the caller's -- >> guest: i don't know enough about it. >> host: the book is titled first in line: presidents, vice presidents and the pursuit of , wer. go ahead, john. >> caller: thank you for taking my call can. i'd like to ask kate, usually when you get in the vice presidency, you have to have somebody that you're very comfortable. could you elaborate the day that barack obama invited joe biden in the white house and gave him the honor, the highest reward if you know anything about this or if you can tell us if you know something about the day that barack obama was making a decision about going after bin

laden, and he probably talked to joe biden because at that moment probably he's saying that this is -- if things goes wrong, we doomed. so it's really something that i believe that having a vice president that you can, he can give you his side of the story clearly and no politics involved and knowing the consequences if things goes wrong. >> host: thank you, john. >> guest: that's a great question because joe biden was in the room when the navy seal raid was being discussed that took out osama bin laden. i talked to joe biden about it, and he had said he was against the raid because they weren't clear enough on if it was definitely bin ladeney and that inlot of people in the room were against it. in fact, he said many people have said hillary clinton was also not as supportive of the raid as she later said she was. but joe biden, you know, fell on

his sword, he says. he wanted to make it clear that lthis was a decision that president obamad took and made. and he realized that it could break badr for him -- bad for him because it came out in the press that he didn't support the raid which was, of course, a big success. so, you know, it's a part of being vice president is taking those kinds of risks and is just saying, you know, this is where i stood on this issue. wiz wrong, now -- i was wrong. joe biden told me later on he escorted the president to the oval office and that he took obama aside and said i think you should follow your gut. and if your gut tells you to go in, go in. his real message to obama, who althey called mr. spock in the white house because biden said he had so much gray matter. he was just s so -- meaning the part in your brain which was mathematical almost, you know? he was so smart. but sometimes had trouble being in touch with his emotions

really. and joe biden saw it as his role to really get obama to trust his gut. >> host: and he wantedht to be e last person in the room, the vice president. why? >> guest: because he wanted to be one of the final voices who could influence policy and decision making. and it's really, it was literal, it was figurative. he wanted to be there when these tough decisions were being made, and he really was. toi mean, they were very close. they had these lunches together and, of course, when beau biden was ill from cancer, joe biden told me that he stopped bringing up his son because at the lunch with obama because president obama would become so emotional about it. and he really, really cared about the biden family. barack obama didn't have a big family. he was brought into the fold of the biden family which was very sweet m. >> host: let's talk about two vice presidents, first dick cheney. as you indicated earlier as vice president, cheney rather enjoyed his image as one of the most

polarizing figures in recent american history. his relationship, you write, with george w. bush was all business. they were never especially close to begin with. regard to lyndon johnson, you wrote the following: when kennedy won the nomination, johnson sent him a telegram. remember those?hn [laughter] lbj now means let's back jack. johnson was not so subtly are signaling his interest as kennedy'san personal secretary would later write, it was almost as if romeo and julieted had gotten married. >> guest: i mean, the scene in the hotel during the convention where robert kennedy is trying to stop johnson from agreeing to be jfk's running mate is just incredibly brutal. because it went on, basically, for hours where rfk is shuttling up and down the stairs trying to convince johnson not to do this because they just hated each other so viscerally. >> host: but john kennedy wanted him. >> guest: he did, because he needed him. they did not love each other,

but he needed johnson to win the south. so a lot of this is, you know, very machiavellian, they need to win. and so back then they would get a vice president who could win certain sections of the country. it's changed a lot since then. i think that the caller was right that mike pence absolutely helped donald trump with the conservative base and the republican party. he's someone who had been in congress for six terms. he had great -- he still does have great relationships on capitol hill. he's a politician, and that's why joe biden told me that he attalks to mike pence at least onceth a month, which i think is shocking to people that they have that relationship. but joe biden says, look, you can work with mike pence. and joe biden tells foreign leaders who he's in touch with to call mike pence and not donald trump because pence has experience in government. he compared it to bill clinton and newt gingrich and the relationship that they had where they could work together even though they were completely on

posing sides. >> host: let's get back to to your phoney calls. us on thening republican line with kate andersen brower. from tyler, texas, good morning, bob. >> caller: good morning. thank you so much for this great show. i want tode ask kate about mike pence and the president. do they have a weekly prayer meeting? and also was there anything significant about june 2016 and pence maybe bringing trump to jesus? >> host: thank you. >> guest: thank you. they do have a weekly -- mike pence has a weekly prayer meeting with members of the mecabinet and friends in the executive office building next to the white house and that he will cancel meetings in order to attend that weekly prayer meeting because, as you can imagine, he's very busy. he makes that happen every week. g.it's very, very important to him. i don't believe that donald trump attends that me meeting. i don't know for sure. and as far as whether or not

donald trump prays as regularly as mike pence, i would doubt it, but he did call mike pence before the vice presidential debate and said he was praying for him. >> host: but the calendar was critical in terms of when vice president pence, then-governor pence, was nominated because of what? >> guest: well, i mean, because there was a requirement that he would have to have been running for governor of indiana at that time. so he had to withdraw at the last minute from his race as governor of indiana and kind of make the gamble that trump was going to offer this to him. and there was a lot of back and forth about whether or not trump really wanted pence. hetr really did get along with newt gingrich and still does. i think the two of them are, obviously, more alike, but i think that he was convinced by paul manafort or and maybe a little bit by his wife that he needed somebody who could nelance himle and didn't have te baggage that he had. and newt gingrich has some of that baggage. >> host: between the two of

them, they would have had six wives. >> guest: yes. [laughter] >> host: our phone lines are open for republicans. 202-748-8001. democrats, 748-8000. we have abl line for independen. you can send us a tweet @c-span wj alan is on the phone from little rock, arkansas. good morning. >> caller: good morning, ms. brower. great work on your book. two or three quick things. one is this prayer reference you made to vice president and how valuable that is and how it was surprising to the president's family. and the fact that they served them breakfast is an incredible story to convey for the background. i notice this week on one of the pressers where the president was having a luncheon, a prior luncheon and one of those five

minute question and answer comment periods where just before the mics went off, someone said i believe the president said mike's going to lead our prayer during lunch. so that's a powerful thing as an example. and, of course, i'm calling as an independent, and just to clarify that, that's a conservative call, higher on the political food chain in my sense. but a call specific -- i called specifically because of your reference to church andre state, the separation of church and state which i promised to the always correct if i get the opportunity. stateis separation of from church. it's just opposite. and it comes from our history from henry viii and the catholic influence and then henry viii's influence of where the state imposing itself on faith and the universal freedom that we have as believers. and you said you are christian,

and so i just hope that in the future you would reverse that reference to be more accurate that we're wanting to separate the state power over the church. break that connection. and it's in the first amendment, the very first thing they say is that congress shall not establish a religion, and it continues, nor impose or infringe on the free exercise thereof. >> host: thank you, alan. thank you,u, sir. >> guest: well, i don't really , see a contradiction between those two things. the idea that there's, that the government should not infringe on religious rights or that religion should to not be part of government. i guess i don't fully understand the conflict there. but -- >> host: every vice president until gerald ford lived in their own residence or apartment until the naval observatory was funded by congress in 1974 and, ofnt

course, former governor, vice president nelson rockefeller the first to use this home. where is it, and why is it significant in the story of the vice presidency? >> guest: well, it's about 3 miles from the whitegn house. it's in a beautiful, leafy part of washington. most people have no idea it's there when you drive by it. it's so gorgeous that when i bush, shed barbara said that she didn't want to leave the naval observatory because you could go out in your bathrobe and walk your dog, and no one would know you were there. when you go to the white house, you're obviously in the epicenter of political coverage. so there's just no privacy in the white house. but in the naval observatory, there's a beautiful pool. for people who have been there, joe biden would have these great parties in the back of the house where he would run around, actually, with a water gun and invite kids and families of reporters to come, and it was just a really fun environment to have kids. i know that dick cheney loved

having his grandkids there, joe biden loved having his family there. it's a sprawling queen anne-style house. the admiral who lived this didn't want to leave and was really angry about having to leaveer it. >> host: western virginia, democrats line with kate andersen brower, her new book on the vice presidency. good morning. >> caller: good morning. good morning, kate. i want to talk about separation of church and state. and vice president, i respect his christianity. i'm a christian. i came in '73 from jordan. but i know when one mayor religion -- major religion control -- [inaudible] minority don't have the freedom. and i want the ask all the christians, we used to have -- [inaudible] i know christianity is love and forgiveness and love your

neighbor and love your or -- [inaudible] but the danger is this is what extremist muslims talk about. god appointed this leader and god appointed this, and they don't want separation of church. how would they feel if buddhist majority became a president or a vice president or a muslim? how would they feel if they want to impose their own belief on other people? >> host: thank you for the call. has religion ever been a factor in the selection of a vice president? >> guest: well, i start with nixon and eisenhower. you know, of course when -- there was a lot of discussion about joe lieberman as a devout jewish man. you know, that was a big issue -- >> host: kennedy was considered in 1956 briefly. >> guest: yes, of course. and it's amazing now to think that the fact that he was irish

catholic was a huge issue at the time. but this book isn't about religion at all. i mean, it's about the relationship between presidents and vice presidents. of our 48 vice presidents, 14 have become president. most of whom became president because of the death of the sitting president. thet, last vice president we had who won an election on his own is george h.w. bush, and that's the person who mike pence most admires. and it's because he pulled that feat off. it hadn't been done since martin van buren. it's a big deal. ..

>> they have their chief of staff listening in on that conversation and that is very telling of the nature of their relationship this is a personal moment to the vice president is the only member of the team that cannot bees fired a fact that joe biden like to repeat and is usually one of the last people left standing after others are pushed out. vice president cheney had his influence in the second term

and then joe biden and barack obama are the only exception to the rule. so vice president al gore there are three pictures that tell the story about that relationship on the campaign trail bill clinton's famous remarks about monica lewis -- monaco e back i cannot imagine what was going through his mind at that moment because he lost the election and the recounthe was going on they were swearing in it was very difficult for him. it was a relief whether or not they lost the election and said no. one of al gore's friends said it was lucky.

and of course was a famousoran tennessee senator. so it was always understood would one day become president. so joe biden never said i could beat barack obama that al gore did to clintonlo and thought if i could just connect with people they are virtually the same age both are moderate democrats and then had trouble connecting with people. >> caller: good morning. you talk about obama's relationship with joe biden

voted mike penn that same role to create policy? >> with romance between the president and vice president and to that point? >> it is genuine they had a great relationship. as far as the question the caller had it is a great question but mike penn and donald trump spend about three hours a day together they talk every night. just like biden d and obama began biden was much older he had four decades of. in the senate biden's mother

mother was there with obama and in chicago election night and she whispers in obama's he or don't worry honey it will rr okay. i thought it was so sweet now you see obama laughing but with that relationship. pence rarely disagrees with donald trump. this is even more than the johnson hubert humphrey relationship there have been a couple instances to get involved who would become speaker after paul ryan. and then pence said let

congress do its thing. so occasionally he was to really keep that up on the hill. as often as he can on capitol hill to get his letter taken with people so with the understanding of pence is how understanding he is. >> 's experience as vice president and how he thought he was railroaded and he thought he was unfairly pushed out they had a really tough relationship. if people know him at all that

he was forced out of office. he was not a great ethical politicians by any means but also working for somebody who refused to meet with him and kept trying to have private meetings and it became this scandal hovering around and then he became vice president pand then president. >> good morning go ahead caller. >> caller: i'm sorry i missed the first part of the segment but speaking about al goreor he was raised in washington d.c. he could not

even win his own state because we didn't look at him as a tennessee but a creature of washington. so basically his father was a very racist semi cracked that's all i have to say. >> it's true. it was funny when i talked to him on the phone i could tell by the facial expressions i like to interview person and i asked him what it was like to be in the white house the most powerful first lady industry we haven't seen a family member that powerful he said i think our conversation is almost over.

like get into that relationship it was the president and vice president and first lady imagine how hard that is to navigate. and they did get along really well but then it unraveled at the end to let clinton go and campaigned for him and that was a huge mistake because at that time clinton was radioactive because of monica when b he -- >> you talk about most of the inner circle opposed al gore that he would never want to play second fiddle after

closing the grand jury testimony he did not publicly defend him. there is a photograph in your book that you could just read what they are saying with a very pensive president bill clinton. >> with foia i tried to get a list of the conversation al gore had during the recount and there were not that many. less than a dozen in that period of time. who wouldn't want to be a fly on the wall to know what they are saying in that room? they didn't see each other again until after 9/11 there is a great story of the two of them reuniting of course that was very hard to get anywhere

and then the two of them and it must have been very emotional for them because they are under attack it was the first time they had spoken they left office. >> dictate he absolutely. we really appreciate history to know all the major players general board and then and he was there when reagan tried to convince or to be in running mate. that is an incredible tory. >> the dream ticket and ford considered it and jeannie was there as an advisor.

telling me how much the reagan gives to gerald ford. thend described that as a co- presidency that was just too much. and now says where is bush? he had to get him on the phone at the last minute. i did interview george hw bush about about ray getting said history will have to judge his accomplishments. it is very like him to be humble but after he was shot on the floor bush came to visit him and reagan was on his hands and knees wiping up water. that was a week and touching moment.

>> hot springs arkansas good morning. >> i look forward to reading your book i was a tadpole is grade school when jfk was assassinated that lbj was in the same city and the governor was in the same limousine and lbj was on the same plane when he took the oath of office today take serious measures to avoid after that? >> it is interesting what is happening at that time and johnson social secretary talks

about coming into office when the white house is straight in black fabric there is no inaugural celebration it was a dark cloud and a difficult time and i described it in the book and then to put the windows down and that was part of a larger conspiracy jackie kennedy said she wished almost wished it was a conspiracy that the idea that her husband would die because of one man was upsetting to her. when jfk was president he said i feel like i am hovering over shoulder and those moving

across the white house at lafayette park and then i didn't want johnson listing for my heart be every morning. that is how they become president. so theha drama of the fascination and very difficult and johnson tried so hard with the pony that he gave kennedy and they really didn't want it at first. he was constantly trying to ingratiate himself to earn their love and respect and he never really got it.he he was a laughingstock and keopthey made fun of him to be from texas. be at the harvard box in the mafia but they were a group of

eden. >> there is a lot of conflicting evidence because now the personal secretary and they said they would drop him. jackie kennedy talks about jackie kennedy as well and then she did speak about it. it is very unusual george is trying get his father to drop in while which i thought was interesting. but bush would not do that in 1982 because it makes the president look like they are reconsidering their decision and if he had dropped quail it

looked like he was doubting himself. being a republican line. >> because you are political and have done a lot of' research, where do you think the government is so corrupt? what? >> that's a great question. >> how much time do we have? laughmac. >> i just know how to answer that. i do answer in the book third with succession bush 41i asked if if there should be a more cleara delineation when cheney had a couple of vice president -- heart attack he wrote the memo and said if i become incapacitated give this

to george w. bush he left that house with a social security card and this folder that has a memo. owowhere is that today? >> i don't know. it's a good question. i wonder if it is in the archives.. a lot of classified information is redacted. if something happens so to the president and vice president to show that if the vice president is incapacitated. we know the succession of the president that it is the unclear chain of command with the vice president.

>> good afternoon to you go ahead before teen good afternoon. your book in the fascinating interview clinton during the president that still the case today? in my question he was that kind of vice president who initiate the process that he arguably needs to happen? and i must do that music for you. y thanks much. >>guest: might then says have relationships with democrats and does have have relationships on capitol hill. t

one thing i learned about the relationship with pence is that he said donald reminded him of their father was a real tap and could be abusive at times reportedly. so i think mike pence has grown up in the environment with as anan irish catholic and voted for jimmy carter and not ronald reagan because who want to have a movie star president now he works for a reality star president but he does believe in this administration. and it is not an. an act. he does believe what trump stands for but he does not tweet that his boss says it is more in the ways of washington. he would certainly be more of what we are used to in a

president. i think donald trump has changed presidency in so many ways it is incredible. >>host: you quote that the job occupies what the late journalist called the strange know me and plan between legislative and executive power that is only slightly more defined out of the first so the authority coming from the president? >> i interviewed mike pence first chief of staff who no longer works there but now he has people who are skilled in the ways of washington. and you will notice he is not part of the rumor mill they are isolated or cushion that

they succeed the president that mike tends has -- pens has broken. i'm sure they have been divided quite a bit but mike pence chief of staff and essentially keeping him happy. i think they will do whatever takes into believe in servant leadership with the chain of command. >> was there the hot moment? >> i do think that mike tends reminds him of his father his father when they were locked

in the room they would force the kids up on thed seat and to see that were he is gushing about donald trump so sometimes that is uncomfortable to watch frankly. >>host: first in line president and vice president in the pursuit of power. thank you very much for being with us. please come back again

>> you have the work that i was doing in yemen. i only had $20 in my pocket so why would i leave that? because that is the only way and when i came to the united states i was thinking i would say in the united states. at that time it was just

something that happened to me. but the most amazing thing you can be you want to be in say what you want to say. but for me it was the only way to stay safe. they said the things that sounded bananas that our message which is postwar or build a wall and all that kind

of stuff they believe that they got the right candidate then they could gain power. so it turns out they were in a way they were right because they knew back then white voters of america would be willing to accept the ideology and the mindframe of conditions were right. >> and when does he start uniting all these groups? >> he always wanted to but it was never the right time that you have to become a known entity and that he tried to start his own thing. he was relatively well known

that he started the university of maryland and then that this is not good and then to become a faculty advisor and then they had the faculty advisor and said no. so after that he decided to form political party which at that time was like a proto- fashion left ideology very prounion and workers he was very populist to gain any semblance of power. so to see that he is a

talkative guy so he went to skinheads and recruited them and then to recruit some of them but finally to come across the socialist movement and then to dress up in those ss uniforms and that is what all this comes down to have 35 guys. and that feed on the far right

but they still managed to get together with that new alliance of sorts.

the neck ladies and gentlemen please welcome sheila tate. [applause]