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tv   Washington Journal F.H. Buckley American Secession  CSPAN  February 22, 2020 9:00pm-10:01pm EST

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lead to some being overrepresented in that system and others being underrepresented. >> to watch the rest of this interview and find more episodes of in-depth visit our website and click on the "in-depth" tab at the top of the page. om>> we are joined by frank buckley, back at our desk george mason university law professor author of his latest book "american secession" the looming threat of national breakup". you argue in this book that secession is a lot closer than we think in today's america, woody-based argument on? >> partly it's my experience. i moved here from canada and i went to all of this before and i remember at one point this was something nobody talked about and a few years later we are having referendum and it nearly passes. when a very divided country. in many ways it resembles the country i left. he began to wonder whether or not we might not just be better
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off with two separate's not what i want, actually i feel a little bit like the skunk in ofthe garden party, all these people have been talking about great presidents and hearing them talk you out of breakup. ultimately i'm not arguing for secession it's just the opposite i'm saying it's a real threat and we should think about that. maybe turn down the volume a little bit. >> a passage from your book we are less united today than we been anytime since the civil war divided by politics, religion, and culture in all the ways that matters for the naked force of the law we are already divided in the two nations just as much as 1861, describe what those two nations look like and where they are. >> every morning the washington post arrives at my doorstep and seems to me like a fresh argument for secession. it just drips with contempt on the other side, it's a lot of that. i think what's missing is a tolerance and understanding of people with very different
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points of view when you don't have that, when half the country thinks the other half is deplorable you have to wonder why should they be in the same country. >> you say in your book that there are the bond that still hold america together. they are strained right now but they are there, what are they? >> maybe they are more strained than ever in a long time in the past. you have a common culture it's a world culture but a common culture, if americans see each other in a foreign country in europe, will recognize each other as americans.we are loud. we are having fun. that's very american i love it. but at the same time, we are canceling a lot of our culture. we are canceling a lot of our history we are told we are not supposed to be proud, rather we are supposed to be ashamed of
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our history. that's very divisive, if you want a country it's very important to have the same kind of mythic heroes and also forget a lot of the bad stuff. >> what can we fall back on right now? >> if it ever comes to it, what i'm hoping would happen would be a realignment of the country in some way.eay you have to imagine that one state will say, this is not working, we like to have national help.when i can get it from washington. we might get it from sacramento and a small group of states. we don't think we would like to make america great again let's make america small again. if you do that maybe things like national health become possible in any get a referendum and at that point people have to sit down and talk. what they may end up talking about is letting different people go there different way but maintaining still a united country in some respects.
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a different kind of federalism. >> bigness and smallness come up in your book at the advantages and disadvantages, smallness being what might happen if american secession happens. what are the advantages and which does the balance favor? >> this is a big debate for framers in 1787, nationalists like madison wanted a big big country when i looked at the evidence when i looked at other countries what i discovered is that bigness is badness generally. and small is beautiful and smaller countries are less corrupt, freer, even more prosperous. we are comparing the biggest countries in the world places like denmark and those countries those fdenmark's are doing pretty well. >> frank buckley is argus, the book is "american secession:
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the looming threat of a national breakup" our discussion point for this hour of the washington journal today. you can join us as you have all morning long on flowlines split up regionally, 202-748-8000 if you are in eastern or central time zone, 202-748-8000 one martin pacific time zones and we will keep that text line open 202-748-8000 three. it. >> i think the greatest threat we have right now is that we have not updated the constitution to reflect the times of the day. the constitution written by man is not a bible. it made it very easy for the
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russians to come in and interfere in our elections. for example, we have this electoral college where we only got like seven states that you got to go campaign and win to win the presidency. those states have mission educated people there is very smart people in those states but they are very easy to fool or gullible because in other words, they need to read. we need a national same rules for every state you don't need to have this thing so complicated. >> the electoral college was a big topic discussion but back in 1787 with the kramers they thought it was important for states to be represented to give the states voice. that's what we have and you are right it's darn hard virtually impossible to amend the
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constitution so we are pretty much stuck with it. frankly, that was something that the guy called roger sherman from connecticut gave us he should be probably a hero for conservatives because the electoral college cut stairway. that's just an accident, it didn't have to happen that way but that's how it's turned out. if you want to get a constitutional change it would probably happen most likely with the threat of secession which would initiate a discussion between the seceding states and the rest of the country as to how to divvy things up. a state may want to go it's own way with respect to national health but we might not want for example a passport to visit disneyland. those are the kinds of s discussions you have to have. >> played d out a little more a you do in your book about the roots to secession if it were to happen ketoday. he made the argument in your book you think americans today
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would be less willing to fight to keep the union together like they did. >> i don't think we would see in abraham lincoln in office. we were going through in the earlier hour the list of the best and worst presidents and very near the bottom was james buchanan.the president just before abraham lincoln. a lot of things wrong with buchanan and erb for a racist he was most racist of all but he said something that made a lot of sense to me. he was talking about south carolina trying to secede. he said this is not make sense we are prosperous and doing well you have no right to secede and you have no reason to secede because you want slavery, slavery is nowhere better protected in the world and in america at this point. you still want to secede and what am i supposed to do?
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am i supposed to send in the troops? if we can't keep our country together by ordinary bonds of affection are not going to keep it together by sending in the army. james madison said the same thing he said, if the federal government had made it the state the compact and the states would be over. yet when my alexandria was invaded was federal troops who don't have those issues today so i can see a civil war anover slavery but i don't see a civil war over transgender bathrooms. >> the caller talked about those people when he was talking about another state. i want to go back to gary gallagher, author and historian give a speech last year talking about northern and southern perception of each other. what they thought about each other and what their perception was reality in the years leading up to the civil war. this is what he had to say.
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>> we can argue either way and historians have that people were more alike or more different but i think often overlooked in this debate about similarities and differences between is the fact that substantial numbers of white northerners and white southerners believe that there were profound differences. in any circumstance perception usually trumps reality and d dictating behaviors because people act according to what they perceived to be the truth, however that perception might differ from reality. by the eve of the civil war many white northerners saw in the self society fundamentally and many would have said prodigiously shaped by the presence of safely. innumerable white southerners thought northerners and antagonistic and middling people determined to utundermin the slavery based social system. it matters little whether ãb separated people in this way. the new york daily tribune put it well in the spring of 1856 "the truth is that though we
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are but one nation, we are two peoples, we are a people of equality ended people up inequality, these two peoples are united by a bond of political union but whenever a collision comes, which brings up the peculiar characteristics of the two they are seemed to be as unlikely as almost any two civilized nations on the face of the earth. that same year in 1856 a young north carolinian at west point son of a slaveholder, offered this southern viewpoint.our manners, feelings of education are as if we were different t nations, indeed everything indicates plainly the separation. >> frank buckley, are we two nations today or do we think we are more different than we actually are? >> in many ways we are two nations. pick up the new york times or washington post and you are
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reading stories by people and other people very different from people in the other parts of the country. i think we could still get along but the speaker just now hit on something very important. namely that it's really very psychological. there was a convention of the states in february 1861 to try to patch it together, they thought it's crazy we don't want to go to war. let's work things out. remarkably, the northerners offered to put slavery in the constitution the most anti-slavery people said we will make it so slavery will always be part of our u.s. constitution. abraham lincoln said he go along with that. it didn't work one of the southern delegates said that's not enough. he also had to respect us and the northern you have to respect or slavery. the northerners said no we can't do that.
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the need for respect is always there and never more than today and i think it fuels a lot of the nastiness of our politics. the willingness of people to go to an extreme. >> the book is "american secession: the looming threat of a national breakup" phone line split up regionally. shelley is out of eden utah. >> thank you for taking my call. i just want to stay, respect is very important. also the fact that we have a president that bullies everybody all the time, that doesn't help our common denominator and getting this all together. i'm a great grandma and i have 18 children ãbgreat grandkids. i truly believe there's a better life for them but the way the direction we are going the middle class is gone and we are having the rich and the poor. we need to find a happy medium
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line. we need more medium class than the rich and the poor. >> those were good points and congratulations on all those grandkids. i think what you've done is you described both white ãbwhy people like and dislike donald trump. i don't want to get into politics but you're talking about basic issues that help electron. at the same time talking about t the way in which a lot of americans off american think this is the worst thing that happened. let's put it this way. in 1972 irving kristol said the call ãbculture war is over. in 2016 the left kinda got a wake-up call maybe they didn't win the culture war after all. from 1992 to 2016 there was a
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broad consensus they were not to shake things up much and now we are. , with trump, that's helped to produce the divisions we talk about. those divisions are there. >> what is the biggest secession movements in america today? >> they are all over the place. there's something called collects it in california i think it would happen this time would be politically correct. there are secession movements here, there come everywhere, texas, new hampshire, vermont and oregon. they are small now they always start small but they can build up very quickly and surprise you. >> if it happened this time i think they be politically correct, what he mean? >> rather than defending slavery and might be the wonky or states of the union staying we can't take it anymore let's make america small again. >> to herbie thomas point mississippi good morning.
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>> i think you are hitting on it. it's about racism in the haves and have-nots admin mississippi we have a big problem because the whole thing that holds america together is holding down black people. we are the people that brought freedom to america, when god said he that is last shall be first. we moved to the first position black people started looking out for one another giving themselves everything they need instead of depending on america or white man to give it to them. then why people have to look out for their own people. it's the haves trying to tell the have-nots what they need and this is where the problem is. black people are on the rise and this is why the ãbfrom the united states because i live here in mississippi, the ã
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ãwe worry about illegal immigrants, we worry about iraq, iran and everywhere else ã >>. >> thank you very much herb. you making good points. although i disagree. the goal actually i think should be for all of us to be treated equally. so no priority to anybody. that means maybe looking carefully at people who been hard done by but in general the message has got to be we are all equal in this and we all count in the same way. >> don livingston. >> don livingston is a weird guy, very nice guy who is a secessionist. he's a philosopher, a student of david hume. he is somebody who from a
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philosophical perspective likes the idea of secession. there are those people out there. he lives in south carolina, he's not a racist in any way shape or form but he is somebody who is locked up the idea of southern secession and southern distinctiveness. he is a good example for me of people who want secession. >> to o nevin out of port charlotte florida, good morning. >> good morning. earlier when you first started your broadcast you mentioned the washington post. [inaudible] >> i didn't make that out. >> can you repeat ãbwhat you are reading when you pick up the washington post. >> for the last couple years there has been not just a decided anti-trump slant but also a slant that tends to communicate that people support trump are less than human.
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that bleeds over from the front page to obviously the opinions to the sports section even. i haven't seen that in the weather section yet but it's pretty much all over the paper. >> give a follow-up question? >> am really surprised that he would say that about a newspaper that's historically been reporting facts and historical accuracy. the news section from their op-ed are two separate things. you used to the word corbels goes back to see what your bias is. you are obviously a conservative are you hoping for secession? is that you are actually hoping for? >> not at all. in fact, the book was written in opposition to the idea of secession. i just said it's out there and there are things we should do now to remove that threat. one of the things is to tone things thdown.
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i stand by what i said about the washington post. i think in many ways it's a great paper but it's a paper wwhich ãbthe new york times for example tries i think to be more moderate in its views but let's not get into the post. >> randy in millington michigan says it seems like your guests will like everything fast food style in our government and that's not how it works. it's long, slow, frustrating but it's our american way, we've allowed contentious debates but when push comes to shove and we come together as americans. >> i hope he is right. he's right about all of that. the structure of government is made to prevent bad things are happening. you have to go through a bunch of hoops. it's not like that in a parliamentary system. in many ways the parliamentary system provides better results i think. what our system lacks is a reverse gear you get bad stuff
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enacted then it can't be amended. >> wooden brexit scottish independence movement mean for secession in america. >> people tend to look to europe right now for this that or the other thing and we don't have to look abroad. for the brits brexit was a former burglar tour a reform. when i think about it, there are all these people here who might welcome secession they include people who want to go their own way with respect to national help but there also a lot of people think we are in a regulatory morass being ruled by unelected regulators and what they are talking about is the alphabet soup mixing up agencies in washington. those kind of people might prefer small country with west
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washington regulations. >> to lori and in california, good morning. >> good morning. i believe that capitalism and trump go together and every man is capitalism well trump is in office and is one other thing too. this i reluctantly have to say as for immigration there comes a time in every nation, all nations when you no longer want immigrants to come into the country. you just have too many. when you're paying them instead of them working to make the country better, it just doesn't work. >> i agree with a lot of what you said. i don't think we are straying from the topic a little bit. i would like to see zero immigration. i'm an immigrant myself.
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there's always a tendency for immigrants to get in here and pull the ladder up, nobody else after me. the immigration i think should center around whether or not the people are actually making native born ã >> what is secession light? what ãbit might be a solution to our problems, secession light is the greater grant of authority to the states or to a group of states over a whole bunch of issues. 0'it's what the brits offered ireland, the 1880s the way in which all the former british colonies have left peacefully, gained their independence, it's a form of self-rule. maybe rather than just breaking up the country maybe the thing to do is to keep the country together but allow pieces of
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the different parts of it to have greater control over what they want to do. >> is that legal under the constitution? >> everything is legal under the constitution if you amended. what i'm contemplating is something to get the game going which would be an act of secession and that begins a discussion. no state has the right of secession. no state had that right in 1861 today.ey don't have it because the voters in other states count dividing up federal property, dividing up the federal debt and begins a series of discussions and maybe what might come out of that which would bring peace to debates would be a greater tolerance for different parts of the country going their own way over any number of things. it might be abortion and it might be national health. >> what role with the supreme court and congress play in what you're talking about if a secession movement is declared and we start walking down that
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path inevitably everything ends up before the supreme court so that's it good point. there's an 1868 case which says no right of secession that was decided when the civil war was good and wover. if secession was perspective if it was in the future i think the supreme court would hesitate before giving a loaded gun to the president and also the originalists on the court would pay attention to the fact that the framers thought secession was perfectly possible. >> were talking with frank buckley the book "american secession: the looming threat of a national breakup" his newest book. joining us for another half hour this morning via phone calls phone line split up regionally 202-748-8000 if you're in the eastern or central time zones, 202-748-8001 in the mountain or pacific time zone, 202-748-8003 for your text messages as well if you send those please include your name and where you
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are from. >> mr. buckley, and concerned that the lack of understanding in the country currently about the electoral college, why it was originated in the discussions about eliminating it posed a threat to fuel more secession activity i would like your thought on that. thank you. >> we got the electoral college because anything else would've been a dealbreaker for many of the states but the smaller e states in 1787. we had a compromise on a lot of things and some of the things you might not like, slavery being an obvious example, that was kind of the price of getting a united country together. as for the electoral college
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you can make a lot of arguments or make for and against it. it runs up against the basic norm underline our constitution and that's democracy. the idea across the country totally inconsistent with the electoral college. the framers knew that. they had argue against people like ntmedicine who didn't want anything like that. the framers most of them thought, we don't want small states to be swallowed up by lithe big ones.the big ones back then were virginia and pennsylvania. the big ones today are new york and california. same argument. >> jim on twitter is one of our s longtime viewers. he often tweets every day stuff this is his comment on this segment. maybe we could start to respect the 10th amendment the 10th amendment of course the powers not delegated to the united states by the constitution nor prohibited by it to the states are reserved to the states
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prospectively or to the people.t >> maybe that would be good only it's kind of late to bring in. 10th amendment it's not had too much staying power. it's not influence the debate very much. i agree i'd like to see more devolution to the powers to the states. i think that would go some way toward solving our problems. i don't know that the 10th amendment is going to take us there. >> today the inhale michigan, good morning. >> good morning. mr. buckley my question to you, trying to juggle this in my mind about the primary election, why is it that we couldn't amend the constitution on the facts of of a secret ballot that the republicans put up seven electors up there in the primary democrats had two.
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i'm an independent so it doesn't matter to me what your thoughts are anyway. but what i'm saying is, secret ballot and then they keep it as a secret ballot until the general election and then they open the ballot and then it becomes into play. that way everybody has to evens the political side of the situation for both sides it might knock out the regular personal district. your comments please otherwise i will get off the air. >> and value your comments you make some good points. you kind of lost me when you said why couldn't you amend the constitution. that's very hard to do. 38 states. i think there probably a lot better ways of ordering
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elections, inevitably there's going to be e messiness in them but in general i think we got a system that we can take a great deal of pride in with almost messiness we do a pretty good job. >> cabin in owensville maryland ....... this secession is going to be economically driven. states deficit is at a point where it is getting tremendously out of control and it is going to at some point -- on everyone. before that happened one -- before that happens, i would see secessions and other things that get us from up under the financial issues we have. i am hoping that this secession is not a bloody secession, not a violent secession, but something that is controlled.
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something that is controlled. i would say i think it is economically -- the soviet union come i think when they became russia they no longer worked and kinda got a clean slate as far as international prime minister. >> you make some good points. i agree with much of what you said. i'm glad you brought up the soviet union. i mean,, the thing is just about every country in the world is staring down the secession movement and scum i don't know why we think we are immune from them. i would think we are ready for it in fact, with respect to the economic consequences it's really hard to just break up if you don't take responsibility for your part of the federal debt. that would be a serious problem. in secession movements in other countries have been willing to talk about that and negotiate over that, so that is kind of
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the price of exodus as it were. you have got to do that. >> a political story for a few years ago would make u.s. independence movements expired by brexit. you've talked to one of them, the others mentioned in that story, nh exit and -- which one of those do want to talk about. >> which was the last one? a hawaiian exit. >> well, none of them have gotten anywhere close to off the ground at this particular. but my argument is, these things happen fast. and, when they happen they come out of the blue. if i could respond to something the previous caller said about whether this would be violent, i talked about my experience in québec, we talked about a dance that's kind of biased my thinking as to whether such a thing could happen here.
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what got secession, the taco secession going in québec was something called bill 101 it was an anti- english piece of legislation. the english people did not call it that. they call that bill 401. 401 is the highway between montréal and toronto. about 400,000 english speakers just moved to toronto. so, one of the things you would expect to happen if there is something like this in america would be u-haul would clean up. we would sort ourselves out, we're doing it already. people are moving from california to texas real to texas or vice versa, there would be more of that. and, that is how you would sell things today, not through war. too easy to get up and move. >> union washington, glenn, good morning. >> a morning. i have a couple of comments for your guests and a question and i will be brief. first of all, ha i holistically
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agree with what your guests are saying especially the last statement. we don't need to go to war but we do need to recognize our deep differences that ideologically as people. it has nothing to do with race as the caller from mississippi didn't he say the fabric of what keeps the u.s. together is keeping black people down, i thought that was pretty psychotic. then, the caller from california compared are coupled done el chompo with capitalism. i agree with that. he represents freedom and capitalism. i would invite him to look up main radiance, she's dead now, but look up her institute and listen to her documentaries about capitalism and how important it is. i wanted to say that there is a person on youtube that has a channel called mark my words. and he shows statistics and mathematics about our nations demographics. dan, he points out many social scientists that show if donald
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trump is elected again he will be the last republican presidents because minorities of immigrants who bowed to over 2 . so mathematically if the immigration continues it will just be a matter of time before republicans will not be elected in the important.i would like to.out that are objected is this at the founding of the nation and may be your guests could confirm this, white people in the u.s. were 96 and 98% white in the call before we reform this country. in the remaining percentages were native americans and slaves. we now have a nation where white people or 50% of the population. i would ask people that call white people racist or think that the nation is racist against anyone that isn't white, how do we go from 98% to 96% unless the framers who formed the nation nature that race was not an issue and of course, we
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all know that they cannot have put the territories together by abolishing slavery right out of the gate and the constitution because look what happened with the civil war. the south democratic democrats democrats tried to separate from the union to hold onto slavery. >> when brings up a lot of points to make a couple of points glenn made. one, if as i suspect he's a libertarian and, libertarians in particular might be tempted by the idea of secession. i mean,, if they don't like the state, imagine the possibility of eliminating one entire level of government at a crack just like that. and a bad one to come in their eyes. as for the effect of immigration, it happens. it happened throughout the 19th century. all of these people who at the time without to be completely undesirable, irish people from eastern europe, whatever they came here they changed us, that
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is kind of an argument i hear from my friends on the left. it reminds me of the movie, cabaret. i don't know if you remember the song, the future belongs to me. so, i think predicting the future is a mugs game and i would not get into that. host: about 20 minutes left as we look at the looming navy threat, frank buckley is with us this morning, two words out of what we want you to define. >> nullification is basically a form of secession. the idea is, and it goes back to thomas jefferson, which by the way tells you a lot of the people i reviewed american heroes are sympathetic to some kind of secession. nullification is the idea that a state can nullify a federal law and if it can nullify one federal law then it could not
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nullify all of them in that secession. in a position with something trumped up by james madison, jeffersons friend and it's a lot lighter, the ideas were not saying that we can nullify along only what we can do is get in the way. we are not going to help enforce the federal law in any way, that is exactly what is going on right now with sanctuary cities and sanctuary states like california that do not want to enforce immigration laws. so, we are there already and it is a game that has been plagued by today a lot of democratic states and in the past by a lot of republican states. and it goes back indeed to the 1840s were northern states did not want to enforce the fugitive slave laws. so, this is part of our history. >> how did that game usually end? guest: well, it plays out the fugitive slave laws were not much enforced and that was the
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reason why the south was unhappy. usually they don't go anywhere because we don't know exactly what it means. there was one flashpoint home which even remind me of fort sumter a little bit. it was in portland, oregon, the immigration people had in the office in portland, they were stormed or they were barricaded rather by some answer for people. they were holed up there are not permitted to escape. the portland police tonight to anything to help them. they were only permitted to leave when federal marshals were sent in to rescue them. that's not fort sumter, but it was remarkable. >> orangeburg, south carolina, mary, good morning three good morning. how are you john and mr. barclay. >> doing well, go ahead three my question, kind of agree with what you're saying in part because as a child, i'm 74 now
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as a child i did live in two worlds because i did not know eyes black until i was told i was black and i was five years old at the time and, the fact that the world has changed so much, the trouble that we went through with slavery and everything and with a show that i watched last night and i think everybody should see it it's on msnbc. the title was, was feeding america i don't know if you've heard of it or not but is something to watch. it has a lot to do with -- and it undocumented people and it made me cry when i watched it. i'm still kind of crying about it now how america has not really changed or who they are and not look at their color or their nationality.
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i feel as though with if the people don't get together and respect each other, we will never stop the problem that is going on in america today. thank you. host: >> mary, there is a lot of truth in what you say, but don't you think things have changed particularly in south carolina. when you were growing up strong thurman was the senator i guess and strong thurman changed over the years and scum of the civil rights revolution has really taken hold, hasn't it? and all of the statesman south carolina. and if that is the case, then it seems to me secession should be thought of as less threatening because the stakes are so much lower. back in 1861 it was a big deal in the war was properly and justly fought to eliminate slavery. but, we do not have those kinds of horrible big issues today, we have gone through this 65 civil rights act and nobody is really
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much trying to undo that. were going to quarrel about things but when you get down to it, don't you think that the corals are over things that are a lot less important than they were in 1965 in 1865? so, i think we are more united about a lot of important issues. what is dividing us frankly in many cases seems in many cases far less important. >> janet of florida on twitter comes back to secession and says, it just sounds like a plan to permit red states to go their own way in regards to civil rights. we are either the united states of america or we are not. guest: well, that is the voice of liberal triumphalism in other words, it's our country, we have property rights to it. this is white irving kristol was saying in 1990 to the left when the culture wars. and they didn't quite, now, were not talking about, i mean, i
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think it would help if one spent more time talking to people who you disagree with because i think you would find that they are not the united races, but there are people who may have different points of view of things like for example, abortion, that's perfectly fine. i see nothing wrong with that. if that is your definition of an unacceptable difference, then we have to disagree. >> another quote from your book, other countries have their common cultures or religions. what america has this idea that constitutes our identity as americans and that ideas a liberalism in the classical sense. if we are to resist the call to secession, it is our allegiance to the countries liberal principles that will unite us. >> there is a lot of talk about nationalism in conservative circles right now and mostly they are people who want to tell
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you know, we are more than a creed, were people. but, i want to say we are a creed. american nationalism is liberal nationalism and if you're american, you have to subscribe to the basic truths, outlined in the declaration and if you don't do that, to my mind your something less than american. people who do that eventually reveal themselves to be out of sync of what america is about. host: what is america about? guest: americas about the principles bound in the declaration more than the constitution that preach liberty and equality. those are pretty good values. >> in california, denise, good morning three good morning, gentlemen. mr. buckley, i have been thinking about the fact that the 2000 bush, gore election and the 2016 election between trump and hillary clinton, both went for the republican candidate in lieu
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of the idea that there really were more majority democrat voters. so that thinking, that one person gets one vote has really been on my mind lately. and i discovered that california has over 40 million people now and we have two senators that represent us. dan, likewise the state of vermont, and many others whose populations are less than a million, they also have two senators. so i felt like the power of my vote is related to mission by virtue of the fact that i live in a very populous state. and then, to take that thought one step further and i hope my sourcing was right on this, but, i read recently that the
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impeachment vote was in favor of conviction by i think it was 47 senators but they represented 169 million people. those who acquitted, who voted to acquit trump represented 151 million people. so it's roughly 18 million people fewer. so, i feel like the power of my boats, my one vote per person is really diminished based on historical facts in the last 20 years. >> denise, you're absolutely right. your vote is diminished and what we are observing in the constitution is a conflict between what i think is a kind of a basic norm of democracy on one hand versus the way the constitution got worked up with the electoral college.
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and, if that is your problem right now i can well imagine how you will feel if, as i expect donald trump is reelected in 2020 this year and may be gets a few more seats on the supreme court. i think at that.maybe people will want to say, we respect democracy and that means secession. >> connecticut, this is gary, good morning. >> good morning. i wanted to speak to the notion of secession as a sleeper issue resulting from the failure of reconstruction and the failure to properly punish the traders who raise their hands against the constitution of the united states and the government of the united states. there have been, during reconstruction, slowly but surely blacks were suppressed, jim crow laws came into being, southerners still refer to the
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wars the war of northern aggression, and the lost cause and these people have been waiting to have a voice and they now have one of the president of the united states. if you look to the issue of monuments, i don't know if you are aware of the colfax manx occurred in louisiana but there is a monument to three white racists who participated in the massacre of 150 black women and children and it says, it is here where northern carpet baking ended. so, we have monuments to people who were murderers and unrepented traders. dan, i really think that is where this is going. i think david should have been hung, not have a boulevard named after him. and many of the monuments themselves are inappropriate. >> well, you are right, the prosecution of jefferson davis
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was pulled in a teen 68 he spent two years in prison, i don't honestly think that had he been prosecuted life would be much different today. i mean, he was prosecuted, if you had been convicted in sent to a term of imprisonment, how would that make your life or my life any different today? you are right about reconstruction being a failed project, they've took another 100 years before we began to remedy that. on the other hand, seems to me if that is how you regard half of americans, then you have to ask if you want to be in the same country is that. >> about five minutes left with frank buckley, american secession is the book, the looming threat of the national breakup. will try to get to as many calls as we can in that time. richard has been waiting in boulder, colorado.
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>> hello. i. >> are you there? >> yes. >> i have a couple comments on a few views of secession. basically it's a minimum wage. if you look at all the red states and go state-by-state, most of them are at 725 an hour in the purple states are like washington, d.c. is close to 15, colorado is $12 an hour and 13 in denver, and then the other thing i see is the separation of church and state which we are again losing. in our constitution it is freedom from religion, freedom of religion. and in the mid- 50s, they decided in the 1950s to put on the dollar bills come in god we trust. thank god was never on the money until that period of we have to be scared about communism in we
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never had the word god in the pledge of allegiance until the 1950s. it was written by socialist in the early 1900s. so it's from a creature, were running out of time. what is your question? >> well it's two forms of secession that as i see it. that states have been succeeding in the change of minimum wage. >> well, actually that's a good thing by my view. i mean, let them decide whatever they want. if they raise the minimum wage to high and you get unemployment maybe they will think better of it. the issues you are talking about are mostly issues within the province of state power, that's fine. >> alva knudsen jackson jackson, florida. good morning, your next. >> yes, i just wanted to make a statement concerning the issue of secession. and as the earlier caller
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stated, it's a complex of issues and people. i think the globalists cause these things just like the proprietors, those that come from england, especially in the southern state of south carolina. if you look at it you'll see that they were looking at it from an investment standpoint, notwithstanding the fact that they had to deal with the king of georgia the third in england concerning he was on a part of the correction of the stamp act. so, it was the oligarchs that cause these problems and the people in their situation and so we got it today, is the globalists that cause the problems, calls people to be against each other. >> well, i'm glad you got
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talking about the georgia third because if you don't like secession what he think about 1776, there was secession after all. we just exited the great britain. in the empire. >> are you hopeful? >> i am hopeful that we will not have a secession. >> even if it doesn't help for my book sales. host: why? >> because i hope that americans at the end of the day will say, this is nuts. we are dividing over things we should be in a green about importantly and when we disagree we should do so civilly and with moderation. i'm hoping that happens to make time for one or two more calls. john, here in washington, d.c. good morning three. >> a good morning. my name is john. i'm here to ask your guests concerning i caught the tail end about the confederate statues or
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other callers calling in citing, and also the civil war era, i am writing policy for the repayment of wages to black americans for the entry of slavery in this country. we have been confused for a while, this country does not or was reparations, and process compensation and benefits denied to individuals and its laypeople who just so happen to be part black, part native american, you noise you know slavery there was a lot of for sexual contact going on. we are looking at removing all of your confederate statues throughout the country because it represents treason, represents merger, it represents slavery, and there is no part of your heritage, legally that you have standing to keep data when
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you have fought against the united states of america. i must tell you, that the end of the public visual impact is over. even in our courts we have statues of john marshall who owned slaves. that is totally unnecessary. we don't see a statue of adolf hitler in the class of a courtyard or mussolini or modern-day let's look at saddam hussein. do you think we would erect statues up of him? i got your. >> the freshman ernest are announced to find nationalism as people who have the same kind of history but also the same kind of amnesia, they have forgotten things. i think that america is messy and requires compromise and requires something like less than total victory on one side
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or the other. that's exactly what compromises. so, i like messiness. messiness works for me. it's absolutely essential if you keep the country together. >> and the last minute or so, you are a law school professor, or to your students think about this issue under threat of secession? >> we haven't gotten into it. i do not want to keep those issues before them, but as much as possible if you are a law professor the student should not have a clue what your politics are, i try to keep it that way. >> do they read your books? >> i hope they will. >> are you going to have a conversation at some.on the year? >> i have a class on the framers debates and we will talk about it, it's there. >> frank buckley is the author of the book, american secession, the looming threat of a national breakup joining us this morning on the "washington journal", we always appreciate your time.
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>> thank you so much. >> here's some of the current best-selling books, and portland, oregon topping the list is on tierney, historian timothy snyder on the political climate. after that is positive america cohost stan former obama official don pipers advice. in on trump in america than in harvest, the vote, and nebraska democratic party chair weighs in on how democrats can win back oral voters. that's followed by a memoir by artist martha grover. wrapping up our look at some of the best-selling nonfiction books according to powell boxes labels thoughts on overcoming racism and median white supremacy. some of the authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch them online on >> at this years boston book festival civil rights attorney ben crump offers to its thoughts on racial bias in the justice
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system. here's a portion of his talk. >> it i was in the state of florida since we was the first state to pass the stench from which i am on record as the most racist jim crow law that we have ever seen in america. it is sad because black people and brown people in america regrettably and unfortunately, we have gotten used to the police killing us not being held accountable. but the stand your ground law made it where any tom, dick, or harry could kill us and still not be held accountable and not just not be held accountable do you remember the statistics i talk about where black people on death row, the quickest way to get to death row and america is to be a person of color kill a white person but yet when a white person kills the person of
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color often times are not even arrested. all they have to stay say is stand your ground. so that would certainly be the first law to get rid of stand your ground, not amended, get rid of it. there is nothing wrong with self-defense, there is nothing wrong with -- stand your ground was a solution looking for a problem. and, the nra suggested it and bought the legislature and said, now you have the license to use the instruments that we are selling you but don't worry about any accountability just use them. i just think that is the wrong message to young people that we have all our problems for violence and guns versus conflict resolution and diplomacy. >> to watch the rest of the talk and find more of the coverage visit our website at
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click on the fairs and festivals tab near the top of the page. >> c-span, your view of government created by cable in 1979 and brought to you by your television provider. >> now, book tvs afterwards, pulitzer prize-winning journalist, nicholas kristof and sheryl linn dunn report on the issues facing the working class. there interviewed by jeff merkley. afterwards is a weekly interview program with relevant because house interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. all afterwards programs are available as podcasts. >> i'm pleased to be with you to talk about the book you put out, tight rope and particularly because it it is taking a look at a small town in ore t


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