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tv   Lawrence Rosenthal Empire of Resentment  CSPAN  August 16, 2020 2:25pm-4:01pm EDT

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chair lawrence rosenthal chronicles the history of the old right and it's role in politics today. then political consultants harlan hill and brian geer dusky offer their thoughts on the rise of nationalist populist movements in the u.s. and abroad. later booktv looks at books about democratic presidential nominee joe biden in the upcoming presidential election. it all starts now on booktv on c-span2. for more information visit or check your program guide. >> hi, i'm bill so cool and electable commute this afternoon to the osher lifelong learning institutes the first in a series of presentations on america's unfinished business. the presentation this afternoon will be with doctor lawrence rosenthal, we will be talking about the far right, white supremacists from the streets to the white house, spreading out globally, looking at it
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historically, probably dealing with terms like fascism and populism and nationalism but before we do that i want to spend just a moment talking about what we are going to do with the technology. number one, asking all the videos to stay off. so we don't get video bombed and so that we use all of our bandwidth for the conversation as opposed to video. number two, to ask questions rather than doing it orally, what we are going to ask you to do is to type your question into the chat box, to do that, if you're familiar with zoom, if you run your cursor across the screen you'll see at the bottom box that says chat, click on chat and you will see off to the right hand side of your screen a line at the bottom where you can type in your questions and comments. as we go through this
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discussion with larry rosenthal, if you'd be good enough to type in your questions as they happen, they will come directly to me, they will not be shared with the rest of the group because we suspect there may be some trolls here who may want to bomb us with hatred and rage. we just assume not have to have all of you share that, they will come to me and that's fine. i don't mind being there psychiatrist for the afternoon. if you would simply put your chat comments and questions, as they arise as larry is talking put them in there and then we will talk with larry for about 50 or 55 minutes, we will then take five minutes we will come back and take your questions. we will leave as much time as possible for that so it says interactive as possible with you. that's how we are going to do it today. let me now do the formal introduction of doctor lawrence, he's the chair and lead researcher for the
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berkeley center for research studies. he taught at uc berkeley in the sociology and italian studies to prevent and was a ãbhe studied the right in the united states and italy, is currently working on a study of the contemporary american right in comparison to moments of the right in 20th century europe. he's written several books, he's appeared in many periodical and he is the author of a forthcoming book this fall from new press, listen to the title because it's very interesting and may give us direction for where we are going, the title of his new book "empire of resentment": populism's toxic embrace of nationalism". back by way of introduction, larry, the podium is yours. >> thank you bill. i think everyone who's taking the trouble to attend to this. but i would like to do as an opening statement is talk about the cast of characters. who is it we are finding in not
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only the current right-wingers in the current george floyd protests but also one of the extraordinary facts of this extraordinary moment is that we have had two movements with people on the streets in large numbers consecutively boom, one after the other. the first one was the anti-lockdown demonstrations, the people who were fed up with being told to stay indoors and so forth. then that is followed without any interruption by the george floyd protests. about the anti-lockdown protest
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that most of the people there were what i think of as right-wing populists. there are those who don't want to use the term populist to deal with right-wingers but if we go down that road, we will never find our way back. the idea here is through the people, if you can think back to 2009 when suddenly the tea party emerged, these are largely the same people in 2009 the financial crisis had hit and they were feeling economic insecurity. the same thing is true with the coronavirus, the sense of economic insecurity is very deeply felt, the way they argue about those things is in terms
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of their notion of freedom that their rights were being violated. back in the tea party scholars use to call that point of view populist constitutionalism and what it meant was that these right-wing populists argued that what the constitution meant and how law should be understood, should not be simply in the hands of lawyers and judges that individuals can make their own determinations about those questions. what happened is the anti-lockdown demonstrations was essentially that populist original is him as it was called by sellers. populist original is him so it
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mutated into populist epidemiology. [laughter] which was the assertion that these fancy doctors can tell us what to do they don't know better than we do. couple of things about the tea party in 2009 and to some extent carried over one was at the very beginning of the tea party there was attempts by both white nationalists and extreme gun enthusiasts. they kind of take over the tea party or make the tea party adhere to their particular point of view and their particular issue into the tea parties and mets credit the counter resisted that. things became different with
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the anti-lockdown where you got guys, we will get to this, who tended to call themselves boo-boo boys, we'll get to that, who appeared in these rallies, okay, so we have the tea party populace. the next category is, it's funny because this used to be on everybody's lips and it's not talked about all that much anymore. is the alts right, the alts right is ideologically driven and ideology is quite nationalism. it's very self-conscious about that and they are self-consciously in the tradition of both fascists, ku klux klan and nazi traditions. a matter of fact, after what was called the battle of
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berkeley in 2017 that the head of "head of the alt-right" a guy called richard spencer, he declared after that streetfighting that things had changed for the alt-right. it was no longer just going to troll people online. now they were going to fight on the streets. the way he viewed this was that as he put it, ãbwhich means that he was making the analogy to free nazi germany. the way he characterized it was that you would have a as he called it the fragmentation of american politics was going to
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move to extreme polarization because you would have the left and the right fighting it out on the streets first space and for ideological space. in this sense as two chomsky recently said, the anti-for is a gift to this point of view. auntãbthe position of the alt-right in that is it people are increasingly going to have to choose and they will choose the right over the left. what's important about this is the extent to which it has been echoed by the trump administration. the trump administration has given great credence to the idea that the violence was
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something owed to antifa or as trump called it a couple years ago, the alt-left, now it's, they are the one. this plays very much into this strategy of richard spencer and the alt-right. the third category of people are the boogaloo people. boogaloo is therethere word ãb essentially about civil war. and it's about the time has come for civil war in america. these people are not as ãb distinct from the alt-right in
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that white nationalism is it their explicit ideology. their ideology is about guns. these are essentially gun rights activists who been extreme for many years. where they have gone with this moment is sometimes called acceleration is him, which is the idea that the time has come, the moment is right for the boogaloo as it's now called. the coming of the american civil war. an interesting thing and exporting point to understand about the boogaloo boys as they call themselves. not only are they gun rights extremist, not only are they talking about civil war but very fundamental to them is
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being anti-police. the presence of police as a provocation to them as these demonstrations have gone on. let me draw the analogy here or the way in which as with the alt-right point of view this kind of dovetails a little bit with what we are getting from the trump administration. at one point, i have a quote here from trump "i can tell you i have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the bikers for trump". he has conflated ãband instituted authority with
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gangs. this gives legitimacy to the boogaloo in a way that wasn't available before. he goes on "i have the tough people, but they don't play it tough unlike the antifa, as he would say. they go to a certain point and then it would be very bad. with that i would say is so much. >> in the george floyd demonstrations trying to create violence? >> without a doubt, the second
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point. there's a number of false flag incidents that have been documented they are a relatively fringe phenomenon but they have been mobilized in considerable numbers given their total in this. i don't know anyone who is in a position to attach that many people are this many people, but they also belong to a tradition of not only gun enthusiasts and extremists but also this very idea of this civil war has a long history, at least 40 years there has been kind of the right-wing militia fantasy, there would be
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an event, somebody would do something it would spark off a war. it is often thought of as a race war for example, dylann roof in south carolina ã >> let me stop you right there, larry, you are raising the issue of race and i want to focus on that. in view of the george floyd demonstrations and what's been happening for the last three weeks, i noticed that you attached the label of kind of white nationalists to the alts right but then withdrew it when it came to the boogaloo bois. how central is white supremacy and deep-seated racism to the far right here in america? >> it's fundamental. there is such a history of it and it doesn't go away. the altsalt-right is devoted to.
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the alt-right believes american, white americans, are being displaced by others. those others tend to be dark skin and when they are feeling particularly nazi, jews. so there is that side of things, which is firmly racist. the line is blurry between that and what's going on with the xo acceleration ãsome of them are sympathetic to the george floyd
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story because it was at the hands of the police. it's not entirely clear cut but in answer to your larger question of the place of race in this, it's fundamental. >> and now i want to try to say as we talk about this fringe movement obviously something very different is happened with the arrival of trump and the presidency. the question is, is he one of them? do we now have the far right in control of the white house or is he simply using them? i suppose that's the question. >> from the point of view of the alt-right, and presumably i don't know this for a fact but it's likely to the point of view of the xomp is a vehicle f
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them. they understand trump and certainly from the point of view of the alt-right, not one of them, but someone who who had allowed their politics to come into the mainstream. >> is that he inviting them, encouraging them to the mainstream? he wants to use them, which allows me to ask you, for and a half century or so i would've used the word fascism. i would say to my lefty friends i would say, come on. it's not fascism, fascism denigrates how horrible it was. now it seems to me it might be time to start using network. as a historian of italian fascism as well as german fascism, can we start to use that term when we talk about trump and the far right here in the u.s.? >> let me give you a little introduction to that answer,
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which is, i agree with you that the word fascism was used loosely can both on the left and the right. it was on either side the term of choice for dismissing people, he's just a fascist. it wasn't an analytical tool by and large. that has changed. as soon as donald trump came down his escalator you had the most serious discussion of fascism in this country in my lifetime. it's not just on the left, it was on the right. people like robert kagan who is in the ãbof neoconservatism. wrote a piece early on in the trump campaign, which was, this is america's owed to fascism. you head you are and allãbyou h
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madeleine albright's book. it wasn't fascism because fascism is a movement required a private militia, which trump with all his talking about go knock the crap out of that person at his rallies or, hit his head on the car when you bring them in or get rid of that person, all of his summons to violence did not bring about an organized fascist like militia. without that, it wasn't fascism.>> what you need in addition to that militia to be considered fascist? what does he have? >> as it were two red lines. one is militia and we can come
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back to that. >> we shall, absolutely. >> the other is what comes about in the german case in the nazi case, it was called the enabling law, what the enabling law did was allowed hitler to rule by decree. it essentially neutralized its entirety the german parliament. he had come to power and the legitimate way but neutralized it. in italy as well there was an equivalent quality ãbof the enabling act. the enabling act in germany it
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came as a result of the burning of the reichstag which was likely a false flag done by the nazis themselves. you have this movement were you have an emergency followed by, essentially, private any power. >> mats the second line in the sand. to mix metaphors, this the second fascist rubicon to cross. >> okay. i guess you would argue trump hasn't yet had the emergence allows them declare himself the all-powerful dictator but with respect to private ãbi
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would've agreed with you that relatively recently that he does it but now he has two it seems to me, not exactly private but he has private base and isis 20 to 30 brownshirts a report executive lee to the branch. the executive branch unilaterally says, in the course of the covid demonstrations and then the george floyd demonstrations he says, we are sending i.c.e. not to deal with the border but to deal with unrest in los angeles and in the south and we are going to use i.c.e. as our troops. the second element i want to throw in for you to discuss, let's do it differently, and what ãbwhat about the fact that he now has the brown shirt militia called i.c.e.
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it would seem like where we are one step away one emergency that gives a thought authoritarian control to the court fascism? >> i would say more disturbing than even the place of i.c.e. or that have been other aide pulled up, bureau of arms. >> alcohol, tobacco, arms. >> and what's more disturbing are the guys they put on the street with no badges. with no affiliation. that is closer to the dedicated militia than anything you've ever seen today refer to that as the little green men, which comes from the description of
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russian soldiers in eastern ukraine while their place there is being denied. that's very compelling that's very close to the line of a private militia or a dedicated militia. when hitler came to power his ss was essentially made part of the state. the way the organs of the fascist party in italy became organs of the italian government under mussolini. so that there is something quite worrisome with respect, the specter if you will of fascism about the developments the recent developments of the
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militias. >> we talked about the alt-right can we talked about the trump administration and the relationship there. this is not a talk about police reform what has to be done about policing? i imagine to address that with other people but i want to ask you as the george floyd demonstrations continue there been some 10,000 requests across the country. there been 130 journalists arrested, rubber bullets being used, people being rounded up when they are peacefully protested so they can be arrested. how do you define the place of police forces with respect to far right white supremacy, fascism. when we do with the fact that police now seem to be not
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simply bad apples in the barrel but seems to be some kind of real unified action with trump meeting with the heads of police force saying i'm with you 100%. >> it's interesting because in the long-standing fantasy on the militia right about the civil war there would be this spark and then the "patriots would rise up and when they rose up they would be joined by the police and by the military to some extent, the distinction we are seeing the difference between the military and the police the statement by general mattis the other day, which really took trump down a peg
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very seriously about what he was doing with respect to the constitution in terms of the army as a potential or joining in the civil war or private militia there is a kind of obstacle at the head of the armed forces. based on proper understanding of constitutional roles. it's interesting that i think trump, it's hard to know what is self-conscious because he's largely uneducated and not a person who understands political strategy in anything
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other than what appears to be what happens tomorrow. >> or what i see on tv tonight if you take something like you remember the case of gallagher who was tried by the military court on my gosh ãbfor homicides in iraq. trump intervened all during his court-martial and afterwards he had the secretary of defense do this gallagher sentenced. trump is actually going beyond he's making connection that
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goes around and does end run around the brass of the military which is not going to support him. perhaps it is developing the constituency among right-wingers in the service will one remembers timothy mcveigh who was precisely that. with the police there does not seem to be this constitutional bulwark at the top that would resist the militarization or certainly the militarization of police at all but the place of the police as enforcing trump ideals and trump's policies. that is the kind of weighing
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end of the long-standing fantasy of what's going to happen. >> we gone alt-right, we talked about the white supremacy trump white house, we've now talked about police we talked about the military, to go in another direction now, what do you think is the role or the connection or the intertwining or lack of intertwining of the religious right? the evangelical churches that have probably supported trump. correct me if i'm wrong, neither german fascism nor italian depended on close relationships with the church yet here it seems to me that we have this relationship between trump and the right and the
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church or a portion of the church. >> i think you are right mussolini comes to power at the moment when the catholic church, but in 1920 for 50 years had refused to recognize the italians which took away the churches lands during the unification of italy in 1860 and 1870. mussolini did come to terms with the church, which none of the liberal parliamentary governments before him whom were able to ãbhe signed what
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was called concorde. in 1929 than the church recognized the fascist regime and they were given significant control over education. there is a connection but in a way that was more using the organized church as a political ally. what we are getting today among illiberal nationalist leaders is a great deal more aware religion and populism merge as a key bit of support. you get that, for example, in poland where the nationalist and liberal party in power, his
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dependency on the church and his alliance with them and his constituency of believers is what keeps them in power. one could look to modi in india who lives explicitly a government of hindu nationalism. putin and his relationship to the russian orthodox church is something similar ......
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and they are most solid fit. just as an aside, i don't think that the religious right is a factor in the violence or -- the darkest parts of the demonstrations in either anti- lockdown or floyd. here's why it seems that this has happened. there are two elements of it.
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one is trump was very clearly saying to them during his campaign and has come through sense that he was going to attend to their most compelling issues. the most compelling, there are two most compelling issues. one is yea marriage, getting rid of it. in the second most important is antiabortion. trump did this extraordinary thing during the campaign which is he published a list of people he was going to put on the supreme court. they were all selected by the federal society ran plainly -- the aim was to bring down roe
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v wade. okay. so you had the judges. so you have this political side of things and then how do you square that with this plainly, morally one thing human being. and that has been a particular interest. on the way it has happened they read trump back into the bible to king david and king cyrus. king david king david said he's good to be the king but not a pastor in cheek here.
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and that seems to have taken up, king cyrus is even more popular on the evangelical side, he was the king who let the jews out of babylonian cac entering captivity as he was king of the persians. brought about the jews being freed and from that point of view, what trump represents is god's deliverance of someone who is not of us. but can deliver us. >> so it's, it seems as though it's almost as if it was inevitable or necessary in order to maintain, or come to
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terms with this extraordinary bit, that the bible turns out to be the answer. we went okay. let me now having more or less tried to cover the territory, the range of who's part of the far right or connected to the far right in these times. you studied italian fascism in particular including german with the greatest length and depth. how close, as you see what's going on here in america now, do you think we are to the german or italian experience. or how far from it are we? are we edging closer and closer or are we still a long ways awa away? >> guest: a couple of things.
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the republic was put around 1919 -- 1920. hitler was elected 19203 and bye-bye republic. juniors are parliamentary democracy. in italy you had a parliamentary regime with a king since the italian unification. it was rife with problems. so the difference between that and the usa is considerable. the institutional level. the usa with all of the errors. with the dishonored again and again and again. to the extent of which the
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people on the left these are the things you have been marching about for your adult life. we know that is the case. but the institution are much stronger than elsewhere. they are much stronger than italy. much much stronger than german part and they are much stronger and liberal regimes especially in europe. at the moment. liberalism is the kind of slow deterioration of democracy it is eroding but undermining all of the things the foundation of democracy in both civil society the people are not in the state has you will always win the votes.
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and it goes on and on, education and cultural things, and museums and so forth. so, in the same way that you know the foundations of democracy have been kind of eroded and places, let's take the lead in place of hungary under victor. under victor or braun, who gives the name liberalism to the worl world. and he has arguments for it. this is what democracy is going to look like. this is the only way democratic countries are going to survive is by illiberal nationalism. we went don't know what that means larry. we slip into that kind of slang, that kind of language, i don't know what it means to
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say the only way that democracy survives is when you have an illiberal regime or you've had an enabling act that let's one man run the country. >> that is the redline, the enabling act. you haven't had that until the emergency. in other words, your bond declared as done right? they have cross that group. they did that by declaring an emergency. he is now ruling by decree. with about past ten years or so of his rule, maybe it's a little less than that. but for the past ten years, they finally come up to and cross that line. unknown to the deposited to declare emergency there was no
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moving that kind of thinking is going on anywhere around trump? the reason i find the question that way as i want to know who the thinkers are. thought was steve bannon and that beginning he seems to been sent off to the doghouse part of the people who think this meaningful about how we are now booked two wonderful wonderful fascism? >> there is an emerging point of view called conservative nationalism. and they have had events, they have had books, there's a theorist called her zoning. basically what they argue and
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jumped up people like you and me might regard american constitutionalism, or things like the declaration of independence prayed values and the principles upon which american democracy sits. we think it's in the words for behold these truths to be self-evident. it's a propositional notion of what american democracy is. they argue otherwise. they argue that it is not the words but the people who wrote them. it was them as they are defied by above all religion. but also other elements of culture. so that is an evolving. >> what you talking about, lirc?
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describe in california there is the claremont institute. the center that the u.s. among you know well known figures, tucker carlson was very well received at these conventions. and there is, i forget which state. a senator i think is joshua holy >> missouri. spoke at spoke at this convention. and he is very well-regarded. someone who's sophisticated in his thinking it's almost as trump comes to power and how do we explain this what is trump -ism? it sounds like they are backfilling.
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it's an ideology for him. >> which reverses the way things normally happen but which is you have an ideology menu had the avatar of that. it's almost like backfilling okay, what the hell is this? that is a labor that is on going. >> host: and in the inner circl circle, i mean where do you place a bill barr, steven muller? you see these people as thinkers with ideology and philosophy? or just pragmatic day-to-day? >> bar comes out of the federalist society. i'm part of the federal society that argued very fiercely in the george w. bush administration for what they called the unitary executive. which basically meant that the
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executive is relatively unbalanced. the checks and balances that conventional thinking has around the president. we are not operative. both cheney and rumsfeld were very strong proponents of this point of view. and it actually had a great deal of impact. there are theorists of it, lots of lawyers who are developing theories around it, and so fort forth. and then you have the bulger review of it. which is trump say article two of the constitution i can do anything i want. >> right. they give him the ideology to support. so what i want to go to further places my time with the was running out for two for the things i want to touch on before he opened up the questioning.
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the first one, you've taken us all the way down the rabbit hole, dark, dark, dark. what's the way out? you've studied history. how do we get out of this? what is the way out in america? we are not even going to talk about of these anymore or boris johnson, but right here in america as i watch comey limits a site watch watch the demonstrations about george floyd develop, a great hope people were in the streets resisting in the way they haven't since 1960s when i was a college kid. i feel like african america and america black america's leading the way. there are literally hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets. how do we get from the mess we are in now to a better america? >> guest: remember the old song love me, love me, love me
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i'm illiberal. [laughter] i think of myself in those terms but the plain and obvious way out of it is voting him out. and the circumstances seem propitious for that. there are the current crises which are financial and wondered thousand people who died. so you have these extraordinary crises on the one hand in which will go if you read the right wing press. trump's handling of these things is regarded as heroic. you look at the limits his day they look at them in and say tonight. it's a very different understanding of it.
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the way you're looking at the election, you have the model of 2016 in the model 2018. in both of those cases what determines the direction of the election was what the political scientist called negative partisanship. which means in 2016, so many people deeply disliked hillary clinton that they went for donald trump. in 2018, blue america who had been somewhat indifferent to hillary clinton, blue america that had two years of donald trump and turned out in massive numbers. and took back the house of representatives. and that was also about
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negative partisanship. there is no reason to believe it, in my view, that dynamic hasn't been maintained or even become more focused. that blue america is going to turn out there are a lot of if's around that is a matter of course projects his own ideas onto others. talks non- stop again about. [inaudible] he plainly tried something in
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that ukraine and god knows what else. but one thing which is clear, is that in 2016 what the trump campaign did, above all on facebook was absolutely fundamental to their victory. and what basically happened on facebook is they delivered fake news. now that is a tricky phrase. because trump picked it up and now it's kind of in the logical soup that between real fake news and fake fake news. so it's real fake news stories like the pope is come out for donald trump. and it was micro- targeted. and this is where things like cambridge analytically came in
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, and you had someone who is orchestrating all of that successfully. >> in his back to do it again. >> not only the back to do it again, he is the campaign management. he is not the guy in the tech office anymore. he is the guy. so they pushed all their chips out on what's going to go onlin online. what that means is there's a lot of stuff were not going to see. there's a lot of stuff we are not going to know. so yes the basis of the place of negative partisanship, it doesn't look promising that blue america should win. but we don't know what's going on. we don't know even know was going on on facebook. >> host: got it, got it. we could go another hour, larry. i want you to take two
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minutes, one paragraph because the title fascinates me. one paragraph so folks can take a break, what is the book about. >> guest: thank you. eight, it's about the presidency. first when the republican nomination and then the presidency but it's about america's right wing populace who formed this immensely powerful political force called the tea party. and they had brought into the ideology of extreme free market i would call fundamentalism. to sort of point the view of people like the koch brothers. he could discuss what that is. but you are giving me a paragraph. >> host: one paragraph. >> guest: one paragraph. what trump did his he migrated
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those populace from that ideology to america first ideology. >> host: got it. >> guest: secondarily he is part of an international which i called the nationalist international. and he also rose up from the 1930s on. the fringe of american politics. the people who had no place in national politics. they could have a place in local politics. you get david duke running for senate in louisiana. but the fringe the white nationalist, clue clicks plan fringe was mobilized. they were stunned by it. they were mobilized.
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none of them and their lifetimes had anything to do with presidential politics. suddenly at the level presidential politics on stalking their language. they are mobilized. and then finally, you note trump in one debate refers to well maybe it wasn't the russians maybe it was some 400-pound kid on his mother's bed in the bedroom doing these things. he also mobilized kind of the alienated young men who were on live who were essentially nihilistic. simon got it a one paragraph on the book for those of you want to see more of what larry thanks, it's called empire resentment populism's topic embraced it nationalism out this fall. over going to do now larry is take about a five-minute break. i'm going to look at the questions in the chat box. people have time, my
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understand is lines to the bathrooms short to the bathroom sociability in and out quickly. then we'll come back and also shooting the questions at you in the chat box. anybody wants to add a question, please do. please take a few minutes to add your questions will go to those with larry, see you in about four minutes larry. >> i'm jumping in early because man are there great question sprayed there are so many of them. we'll take a break for dinner and maybe will have a low schnapps at 11:00 p.m. and go until 2:00 p.m. here we go. let me start with this one. what if white supremacy is not unique fringe elements but a court structural fact of the u.s. in protest about george floyd are not uniquely about police brutality, but about this structural reality. >> there is no doubt it's a structural reality. it is, people use the original sin of the u.s. and got away.
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i am happy to have the question because i would not like anything that i have said to suggest otherwise. white supremacy, not white nationalism some much, what makes the distinction. what nationalism is as opposed to white supremacy. what nationalism especially in its current incarnation is the idea that white privilege has been taken away. that, i have a good quote from richard spencer that white dispossession is so real, it is so obvious something one
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cannot ignore that her reaction had to occur it was only a question of when or how. it was not a question of the weather. so with this argument, and it is felt. not justifying it in any way, shape, form. but this is the feeling that woos white nationalists. it is to put it this way, they have always had a seat at the table. and suddenly there are these others whose values they don't respect. i knew they think don't respect their values who are displacing them. you think that some way different from white supremacist thinking? >> guest: yes white supremacy is not -- this is a function of the age of mass integration or the perception of mass immigration that it's about
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the 2016 election was about latinos it was about immigrants, trump was going to build a wall. the regimes throughout europe, there's comes from movements about migrants. so it's about, it doesn't deny or say otherwise. i'm making a distinction between white supremacy and white nationalism. and white nationalism, there is this notion, a theory it's called replacement theory
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which actually is an import from france. and france on the right has been talking about. [inaudible] since the 1970s. and what it means is not only are real french being displaced by people from africa and muslims and so forth. there are conspiracies at work to make that happen. and so if you remember charlottesville the chance in charlottesville you will not replace us. it isn't that which is at the heart of contemporary. >> i understand maybe i misunderstand. what you're saying in a certain sense is white supremacy in my mind has been born at the experience of slavery in america. and it's the hatred and the feeling that i must be superior and i am superior to black americans.
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white nationalism it seems to me is addressed to people who are coming across the borders, were coming from the south coming from far east and are called yellow. it could be, it could be that this movement could be based around opposition to immigration which was the explicit message of the trump campaign but what it also did was when you define the immigrants as essentially the other, what has happened is that of their has expanded and so likeness becomes kind of the most capacious of these
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categories. it is the thing that allows the greatest number of white people to identify with it. and on the other hand puts black people and brown people and jewish people in the same getter. and we have a substantial asian community also. who's not as poorly regarded. okay. let me go to another question prayed something you touched on. non- academic relatives are getting messages by facebook and other social media that insists that nancy pelosi and the mainstream media are preventing us from knowing all of the marvelous things that donald trump is accomplishing for us. with lists of great achievement how can we know what messages are being targeted at an audience we don't see or belong to? >> we don't. the problem is we don't.
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and that's what i was referring to earlier as, we are on the analytical surface, negative partisanship makes the perspective 2020 election look good for blue america. the problem is we don't know what these messages and what these news stories, real fake news stories are conveying to this highly targeted facebook population. >> we don't know and that is what puts this election in -- it is the big question for this election respect solar we haven't talked about what i would appreciate if you touch on the role of the internet. i am at the point where i feel like i am not so sure this is
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a net net benefit to have the internet you know, it's marvelous because you and i can talk a lot of people enjoying the conversation. and it seems if you took away twitter you wouldn't have trump. if you took away facebook you wouldn't have this massive support for trump. >> there is no doubt. there is no doubt. but i would increase that by how networked forces on the right are. the militia right were earlier doctors about networking technology back in the 1980s. and they have stuck with it and stuck with it and stuck with it. i would say that fox news, wasn't artifact of the coming of cable tv.
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and things like breitbart. it's an artifact of the coming of the internet. and there is no doubt that the right and these dark corners of the right thrive on it. and they not only thrive on it domestically, the connectivity international among these groups is extraordinary. the net nationalist international is very heavily networked. whether the internet is a final plus or a final negative , is, at this point a be a theological question. >> good enough. here's a questions and then we didn't touch him but it is important for the person says is it mitch mcconnell in
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congress representative of an additional faction of the far right? when that's also using trump to further their agenda. and then are there parallels in fascist italy or in germany? if you take what you can call the conservative establishment in italy and in germany. they both made a bet. and there bet was okay, these guys are going to get rid of our opposition, the socialist and a communist. they're going to do a good job of it and will be able to control them. they thought they could ride the tiger. instead they got eaten by the tiger. so there is a kind of parallel there. there is a real question about the republican party acquiesce massive acquiesce to trump -ism such that mitch romney is
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now heroically standing out for the occasional the first one was well so many move from never traverse the poster boy in all of this is lindsey graham he's can assign on our bills. and so my lord our constituency has turned trump. if we are not going after predicate the now trump voting
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of the republican party. i called in sociology one oh one. said if you read theory that if you take on a role, often enough you become it. and i think that to a large extent what would cure their fever i don't know the answer to that let me move to another question but to what extent of their penetration in the military and or the police?
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>> guest: i think it is considerable. think what we are seeing in terms of the police kind of speaks for itself. we have the head of the union of the minneapolis police force who has been lauded by trump. opposed to any kind of sanctioned against showman and his collaborators. so i'm think that is representative not only of individuals within police forces, but organized police force. and i imagine that inside those police forces, that it
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would probably be extremely difficult to counter that ideology. and again i would distinguish between the effect of the professional kind of managing class of the police. in the class of the military. in the managing class of the officers. that madison's, the kelley's. who have been -- and they have been consistent throughout the trump. there was a strong sense that we are going to be in his cabinet to keep things on the straight and narrow to whatever extent we can. and that is like trying to
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fill a glass of water with a fire hose you couldn't do it. but insofar as they represent the professional class of the military, they are not or they remain an obstacle. >> got it. got it. another question what you make of the latest beef of trump and the pope? any impact in the usa? >> guest: that is a good question since american catholics have a kind of emotional bonds on each side of this. american catholics are not as fond of francis as they were of john paul. the polish pope.
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it was a cold warrior. and francis is kind of a libera liberal. he is outspoken trying to change the churches running into great deal of opposition. and so catholics do have a kind of -- i want to very, very strongly avoid the term to loyalty. i do not mean to loyalty. but, they are pulled into different directions. it will be interesting, the extent to which the american clergy becomes more francis friendly over the succeeding
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months. >> host: got it. here is one about the boys what did they hope to establish if they win their civil war? what with the new government and society look like? >> guest: that is where the important distinctions between that and the white nationals for the white nationalists have the idea of the ethnic estate. the pure white ethnic state. so there is, where you end up. the thing about the acceleration is, is they have kind of given up on an ideal on what they are aiming for. it is the bring down on its own terms. we will figure it out later. >> host: got it. >> guest: that is the essence of which is becoming a force
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in that world in the past few years. so they don't have one. >> got it. got it. >> host: another question that we've not exported all that i think is important. can you please discuss the business interest warned against the far right. they funded the anti- lockdown protest similar family foundations funding protest some of these be scared if the far right and trump trump far right. you take something like the koch brothers or the remaining coke brother. they are not ideologically in step with trump. they will support him and things like the tax cuts.
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of foreign allies, they are appalled by what he has done to trade agreements of c importance waiver in america. there is no simple correspondence between trump -ism and big capital steven larry, i think the person is conflating two things that we may want to separate. one your time but big capital corporate america, business america. the person is also time a family foundations. the singers, the edelson's et cetera. >> guest: that's why talk about the koch brothers. but to the extent to which the family was very, very much a
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supporter of republican orthodoxy over the past. they took an extreme view of it. but they were supporters of it. to a large extent, life in the republican party, those family foundations have become trump ian's. in whether they revert back will always be like the gates in the divorce family. they will always be more radical than republican orthodox. same is true of the koch brothers. and those radical points of view have been a really susceptible to turning into a trump indirection. so that has been the case, as you can see with the devos family.
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>> sometimes larry i wonder if corporate capital needs an active growing healthy economy whereas the family foundation they just wanted absence of regulation, absence of a hit need an active government to fund them to give him the fed and the trevor treasury give them. >> there is a parallel there. if you think about what donald trump represents a businessman. he did not have a board of directors. he was not a closed shop. in which the kinds of things
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kind of blowing off contractors and not paying them, this is a man who's had 4500 lawsuits around his businesses. he was bankrupt in one of his businesses. that is a very different business formation them people who lurk in public corporations. as a really different formation is a wonderful article intensive patient and toy 15 by a sociologist called gary marks. and basically made this amazing parallel to tony, says sky is a standup guy -- who
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was it, flynn a think it was maybe. no, no, it was manna for. that kind of thing. or the plot as it were against the ukrainians. we would like you to do us a favor. c1 absolutely we just have people that call them mafia. they fell to the mafia. >> guest: that's, that's a different economic universe with different values, and different ways of operation. and they are dark. they were closed. and the koch brothers of course are privately held as well. >> host: here's an interesting one. going back i watch close to
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the live streams from pro- trump demonstrations including the battle of berkeley, charlottesville and portland were a lot of the guys in portland in particular seemed like a wannabes. how to shape middle eyes guys in armor who are not going to be very useful" battle. how many of the militia types really though they won't admit it it's sort of a game or they can posture and shout but they don't really expect to be called upon on the fighting. >> guest: that's a great question. to the extent we have any evidence of that, with the rise it never happens. there have been considerable provocations timothy mcveigh was such a provocation. dylan roof was such a provocation. and you can go on and on and on. so the fantasy so use the word
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advisedly that the patriots would rise up to be the coming of the civil war which is a notion that is been with the militia right since the 1970s since the publication of a book called the turner diaries which outline that. to an apocalyptic end. but to the extent to which we know an answer to that, it hasn't happened. okay. >> host: somebody asked about the geography of the far right. other important states where they hang out? are there states where they are more concentrated or less concentrated? >> guest: certainly there are certain states that are really concentrated. in idaho and when they talk about an f no states.
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that is the general area. of course there's northern california which is had the quote unquote state of jefferson which takes in parts of his wells idaho in oregon. which has gone on for a very long time. what's really interesting about the trump constituency in my view, is that the most -- the best predictor of who would be a trump voter was not the presence of immigrants and their mixed. but the absence. so people tended, on the call this the imaginary other. that the imaginary other was far more threatening and far more effective politically than actually living among
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immigrant immigrants. so the trump constituency is interestingly very well or perhaps in its best split nation in terms of disperse, geographic dispersal is notable for living in places in zip codes re- don't find immigrants. >> host: okay. there are a whole series of questions, larry, they're asking to crystal ball. i will throw them at you but it may be just beyond the ability of your crystal ball today. one says what if he loses the election and refuses to leave office? what if it is very close and he refuses to leave office? appeal were to lose, what might these groups do if he were to lose? questions about basically what happens if the election either comes apart at the seams, doesn't go well or is a real
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mess? >> guest: again we have history that says they don't rise up when the patriots quote unquote don't really rise up. different now, one of the things i think could make it different. this is always been there in the trump kind of catalog of what he might do is war. that would be an event which could lead to the kind of emergency situation that would affect institutions and at the same time actually motivate
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the militia to move. so that actually is for me, my biggest worry. and if you think about to use the method, not the metaphor but the example of the rise of fascism, before old world war one you didn't have fascism. you did have nationalism. you had nationalism which is not all that different from what we have today. in fact it's kind of the forerunner of the nationalism we have today. after the waurika get fascism there is a body of people who have been to war and who have come from -- these are the people from the countryside
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this is their major exposure to the nation. in their learning curve is war. and so that was very functional for the rise of fascism. asses him is formed in march of 1919. first meeting that calls itself fascism. it's the power in italy in november of 22. lessen the u.s. presidential term. okay. so the biggest worry about going from where we are in the kind of bill liberalism which on the one hand trump is attempting to institute, and on the other time which our
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institutions have resisted. the biggest threat to that that might be the darkest we are past the 5:00 o'clock hour i've learned a tremendous amount and i can tell by the number who are still here that people are founded as fascinating as i have pretty want to thank you very, very much. by joining halley in spain time with us. parsing, slicing and dicing with the far right is. i want to remind people one more time, empire resentment populism's toxic embrace of nationalism. out in the fall, right? >> out there at the end of the summer, september 8. >> okay very good it will be there. any last words of wisdom terror or fear? or let's make it hope. words of hope. words of hope is we still have
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elections in this country. and love me love me love very i'm a liberal. this is the mechanism coming out of gerald ford call it our own national nightmare. this is the root out of. sue and that's where it is folks novembers when it happens. i want to thank all of you have joined us. i want to thank halley lifelong institute that will be offering many more discussions like this about america's unfinished business. and i don't to personally thank larry rosenthal because it has been just wonderful lariats thank you so much. >> guest: thank you. and let me think all he. i understand there are people out there who are doing this
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and who have listened to this. while you are all faceless, thank you for being here. >> host: good night i think we have taken you to the nap hour of the cocktail time. >> guest: thank you very much. >> tonight booktv in prime time the wall street journal's melissa korn and jennifer levitz investigate the recent college admission scandals. former deputy assistant attorney general in the george w. bush administration john yoo ways and on presidential powers in the u.s. constitution. pulitzer prize-winning author and appelbaum looks at the riots of authoritarian and nationalism around the world. and biographer larry tie recounts the light of the late republican senator mccarthy of wisconsin for that's all tonight on book tv on c-span2 print from her schedule information is a or consult your program guide. stu met during a virtual program hosted by the library of congress astronaut h green
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reflected on her time participating in a simulation of living on mars but here is a portion of that conversation. >> this is kind of a complicated thing. we really want to practice as well as we possibly can here on earth before we send astronauts out on adventures in space exploration part even in the early days of mercury, gemini, apollo, nasa was looking for ways to train astronauts or how to do things. and just prepare them. that's her get to the if you've ever seen pictures of astronauts in a giant pool in houston prayed that the simulation that straining astronauts for how to fix things on international space station for the idea of going to the moon for a long time which is up some people are talking about and then going to mars that is not just about figuring out how to fix something on the exterior of a space station.
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that has all kinds of challenge challenges. coarser huge technological challenges with that. but really, if you are on a mission to mars you are to an half years away from earth. and that sort of isolation is something that, i mean that has never occurred in human history, so far away for so long. so these stimulations is one that looks at the ways that groups of people, astronaut like subjects come together and work together as a team. the challenges they encounter as they are isolated from essentially earth. stu beck to watch the rest of this program go to our website produce the search box at the top of the page to search for katu2 green or the title of her book, once upon a time i lived on mars. >> here's a look at some books being published this week. historian rick perlstein has a trilogy on the rise of modern conservatism in american
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politics. in ragan land. it doesn't hurt to ask come attorney and former republican congressman trey gaudi of south carolina provides his guidance on how to effectively communicate with others. and jonathan repping founder of the public defense organization gideon's promise offers his thoughts on how to change the criminal justice system. also been published this week and rick tyler his case for how conservative principles can tackle today's political issues. : : :


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