tv Author Discussion on the Impact of COVID-19 CSPAN April 24, 2021 1:00pm-2:01pm EDT
race in america and the historian, h w brand, discuss the history of social justice movements in america. now the impact of covid 19 in our everyday lives. >> welcome, everybody, to covid 19, how it has changed us. i can't see you but we have several guests here and i appreciate your coming. very smart and interesting men, they will tell us about themselves but first i will briefly introduce both of them but, the impact of coronavirus on the way we live, his name is
nicholas christakes, sterling professor of social and natural science at gail university. and the unending war between humanity and infectious disease. the center for global development. and and to beijing, previous books about global progress and he will tell us about the work he does. thank you for joining us. let's start with doctor chris talkis. what do you do? why you do it and your book?
change wasn't expecting to do the autobiography but i am a physician, i was a hospice doctor taking care of people who were dying, i do research laboratory and south social networks, so human social interactions, the evolutionary origin, why do we have friends at all? other animals don't form long-term nonreproductive unions with other members of their species but we do and it is unusual practice forming social networks, actually place us at risk for epidemic. if we lived as isolated individuals we wouldn't be subject to contagious disease.
we live with each other to reap certain advantages from an evolutionary point of view, and we are cultural animals, we expose ourselves to certain risk, one of the arguments i make is in a real way the spread of germs is the price we pay for the spread of ideas. i come knew you to share knowledge with you. the way evolution shape social networks to optimize back the capacity for social learning, and and and my background, and i will tell you why i wrote it, and one overarching idea of the book that can intersect with
charles's perspective on this topic. i have been studying the spread of things and social networks for a long time, spread of emotions, money, ideas, spread of behaviors and so on and i have been working with chinese collaborators to use phone data in china describing people social interactions to study the impact on social interactions of certain developments, how does that reshape social interactions, how we can use data to understand the spread of the epidemic so we have data on 11 million people transiting to wuhan in january of 2020, to accurately describe the early days of the pandemic as people spread from wuhan through china
and around the world, how does the epidemic spread. and and and all motion in china ceased. on that date the chinese saw in the virus a threat of sufficient magnitude to basically detonate a social nuclear weapon to stop it. that is how bad they thought, billion people in lockdown on january 5th. this got my attention and i was corresponding with a lot of epidemiology colleagues of mine and they were worried about the pandemic. our leaders, politicians are not saying anything to this effect.
in february, italy, lapsed in northern italy and people were lackadaisical, what can i do to help? i thought i would write a book to describe basics about epidemiology for what we are experiencing in a sweep of history. that is what the book attempts to do. and what happened in our species a new pathogen was introduced, circulating among us forever and what is known in evolutionary biology is an ecological release, like an invasive species like the rack that we release on an island and it over runs the place. our bodies are that island to the virus and it will spread and spread among us.
one thing i try to highlight is the way we have come to do this is so alien and unnatural to so many people, so strange it is crucial to understand plagues are not new to our species, they are just new to us. we think this is crazy how we have come to live but if you look at written accounts, archaeological evidence, dead bodies for thousands of years, it is clear this type of threat has been long-standing and our response to the threat, and i will shut up, our stereotypical. all the things we see, the grief making power of plague, that plagues take our livelihoods come our way of life. it is a time of loss, the blame, the fact that we ceased
to blame others and in medieval times it was the jews's fault, homosexuals or asians, always we seek to blame someone else when it is just a pathogen that is killing us mortals. the death of healthcare workers, talking about how all the doctors are dying, during the bubonic plague, all the nurses were dying, this is also typical. the fear that we see, the lies, rumors and superstition and mendacity typical of plagues. you think of plague is one of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, right behind the virus spreading our lives, you can think of mendacity as the horsemen's squier, the germs are spreading and through the
social networks misinformation and truth is spreading, a dueling contagion spreading on social networks, biological and social contagion and proper behaviors that are competing to see who will win in a sense. i will stop there except because i didn't highlight it, i mentioned the bad things plagues due to us but also elicit some wonderful properties of cooperation and teaching. we are banding together to this collective threat, working to implement social distancing, working to invent and distribute vaccines. these are wonderful qualities our species has and should be seen as counterforce is to the worst qualities i mentioned a moment ago. i was taken by a famous passage from alberta moon's the plague
which features as a protagonist a physician set in north africa in the 1940s but based on outbreaks of bubonic plague in the prior century and this is the path i will close with, the protagonist of the plague, resolved to compile the chronicle so some memorial of the injustice and outreach that might endure and stay quite simply what we learn in times of pestilence that there are more things to admire in men and women than to despise. that is how i feel, there's more to admire in times like that. >> that has been my experience. welcome to the san antonio book
festival, supported by nowhere bookshop which is a local bookshop in san antonio and please by your copies and that would be fantastic. you need to read them. through a different lens. tell us about yourself. >> my first jab, a little behind, the vaccine was injected, a woman, a nurse born in vietnam, the technology that underlies it, by somebody whose parents were sitting in germany, the company that uses
it was run by a greek immigrant, a hungary and immigrant developing the underlying technologies, speaks to what nicholas is talking about, they are spread faster. at the same time the best defense against that, people coming together is how we are going to solve this one. not an attempt to move backwards through vaccine nationalism that won't work in the modern world and to some extent that was why i started writing the book and unlike
nicholas, took me closer on 5 years to research this book. i'm not a medical doctor, there was a lot more i have to learn, i guess. the reason was i have been writing these books on global progress and incontrovertible back-to-back how the world got better over the last few decades, look what happens with child mortality. if you go back to the 1960s the average parent worldwide would accept one of the children to die before the age of 5 and now worldwide that is thankfully a rare experience because child mortality rates are much less the fifth of what they were, i wanted to look at the
underlying reasons why, fantastic tomes plaguing people. i strongly recommend them. >> my question because i read it in college. >> still, nicholas can give an important answer but most medical aspect and on the broader history but there have been a lot of new research not just on medical aspects. i'm not a medical doctor but a lot more on the knock on effects in terms of how society works in economic responses so
i wanted to get that across, the impact on -- forget huge impacts on women's equality, on violence, we underestimate how much the world has changed because infection has receded so much from where it was. all of that before covid, i deserve credit if you will for being one among another, nicholas too thought there was probably going to be at some point another global pandemic in a way that was fairly obvious. we have a lot of close calls but the thing was how much i
underestimated the impact of this pandemic, economists and others on the scale of the 1918 flu and the numbers they were coming up with with $3 trillion. we've gone through that multiple times. i think there was, and i had a widespread sense that this could happen. i underestimated how bad it could be and part of the reason many of us underestimated how bad it could be as we overestimated how bad we would do in response, we've done fantastically on a rolling out a vaccine program within a year of the emergence of covid 19. it is wonderful but we did terribly on all the things before that pretty much, controlling the outbreak,
putting in place testing and tracing system under control, honorable mentions aside, taiwan, south korea, new zealand, china, we did terribly in that, terribly in mask mandate, late in social distancing, perhaps one of the reasons some of us underestimated how bad this could get, how much we should have learned or did learn in previous pandemics. we've known about the impact of masking and social distancing for at least 100 years. there was a lot of discussion of it in 1918. there was the hope we learned our lesson and perhaps not. are we going to get the lessons of this pandemic? i sincerely hope not.
that is where the book came from. >> yes. obviously these are things everybody should read. we are all conversant in the same language, context, and history, that will help us make better decisions going forward. let's talk about these specific books. apollo's arrow. tell us where the title came from. >> it is from the iliad. one of the things i wanted to say, plagues are not new to our species, they are just new to us and you can see that because they are in the bible, in the iliad, in shakespeare. you will rethink, it is so crazy we have to face a plague but our ancestors faced them for thousands of years and so
the opening lines of the iliad which is a magnificent book that i read every few years as an aside. when you are young person you think the book is about achilles and the greeks but the only hero in the book is hector and it is extraordinary. the book opens as follows. apollo is the god of many things, god of healing and god of plagues and this is typical of many ancient religions, the bringer of wellness and the greeks, circling troy, laying siege to troy and periodically won these raids, they had killed all the men, taken all the booty, brought the women
back to camp as slaves including a maiden girl who was the daughter of a priest of apollo, crazies survived, comes to the greek camp and goes to the tent of agamemnon and also onto his knees and a great grandson and asks to ransom his daughter. not only does agamemnon who was assigned this young woman as part of the treasure refuse but he abuses of this man, smacks him and says not only will i not surrender but grow old in my house tending my loom coming in my bed, and away the greek soldiers do not like, the priest goes to the shore and says listen to me. if you ever appreciated my offerings over the years hear
me now, punish the greeks, apollo and olympus hears this prayer and is enraged and takes the silver bowl because many ancient religions the greeks had the sense that apollo would fling these unseen arrows and these arrows were disease, not just the seller but unseen germs that spread and lands among the boats, greek boats, crouches among those boats and the poem goes first he killed the running dogs, then houses, then the men, 9 days go the arrows of the gardens on the tenth day hera, queen of the gods, she saw them perishing because great numbers of greeks were dying in huge funeral pyres and, that is why the book
is called apollo's arrow. i was struck by your cover art. tell us about that and where it came from. charles kenny. >> with that size, beautiful drawing. it draws from the cover of a fringe newspaper from 1911. manchuria was suffering under a pneumonic plague like the bubonic plague but spread through the air as well. and i thought it was fantastic, nothing to do with a cover-up but a fantastic image.
it was a very appropriate image for this year because of the response to the manchurian plague put in place by the chinese doctors involved, social distancing and restrictions on travel. there are arguments over how much this play would have worked without intervention but they were the intervention doctors tried and rapidly went away. 109 years later mucking up what they managed to do, 109 years previously, something a bit depressing about our covid response. >> primitive measures, it is miraculous we live in a time,
the first generation of humans alive who have been able in real time to manufacture a specific and effective countermeasure in the form of a vaccine. our ancestors fought they could do things, you take a snake and mix the snake up and mix in onions and make a paste of snake and onions and rub it on your body, but they didn't. the tools at their disposal were the same tools we have which is to socially distance. it does not go back hundreds of years but 100 years ago in 1918, debate about mask wearing, same politicization we had now, border closures were considered for thousands of years and so on.
we have to use primitive measures but we are lucky to have more advanced measures in the form of these vaccines. >> marco polo, the trade commission, ends up in the bank with with the chinese emperor and the waiters wearing masks, silken masks to stop what is affecting the food. it would be hard to claim it was a strict public health measure but that idea has been around for a long time. it is not caused by that. one opinion has changed,
o'neill's book, serious outbreak of black death in china. there is a fair amount of evidence that there wasn't much impact as there was in europe and sanitary measures may have much cleaner and more dispersed than european cities at the time. we have had a lot of basic approach, we have a vaccine so far to test it. that isn't going to go immediately. >> i should mention this pathogen kills between one, and one.6% of the people it
infects. that is quite serious, 10 times deadlier than the flu but nowhere near as deadly as bubonic plague or smallpox or cholera which were called the holy trinity of diseases, but there is no god-given reason this pathogen isn't worse. this particular virus could have had the same properties, all the same intrinsic properties, communicative ability, but in lethality was 10 or 30 times worse like in the movie contagion, just imagine what the world would be like or the country would be like in that situation and this is why so many people, considering these, so ashamed of our response.
unlike bacterial epidemics like bubonic plague or cholera, with antibiotics and viruses, few if any treatments so a virus that kills large numbers of people which could emerge on its own accord at any time and wipe us out, we have nothing to do to stop it except these ancient techniques of physical distancing which we need to do better at or going into the future the ability to develop vaccines, we have to do these basic things while we develop a vaccine. it could have been so much worse and this is why people are worried about this because it could happen again. there is no reason -- it will happen again, only a question
of when. could have another global pandemic not in 50 years but 20 years or anytime and we should do better i hope the next time. >> what you said, the reason this pandemic has been so deadly, it is so survivable, people don't take it seriously. its genius, if viruses were sentiment, it would be genius, but it is not so deadly, that people just stay home in terror. >> let me interject the epidemiological point. you are absolutely right to highlight the intermediate and less hourly of this, it is sufficiently deadly that it harms off a lot but not to debbie they take it seriously
but the further wrinkle, manifestations of the virus, protein manifestations, suppose you have one population of 1000 people, 10 of them are infected with the virus and get seriously ill, that is 10% mortality rate in that population. and in the population, 10 are infected and one of them dies, an additional 90 people get a mild course of illness. one% fatality rate. which world would you rather be in? a world in which there is a 10% fatality rate ostensibly or world in which there was a one% mortality rate. most would rather be in a world of one% mortality but that is wrong. that world is a worse world because in addition, you have 90 miles illnesses in that world. the ability of the virus to not only cause serious illness but mild illness has muddied the
waters. so people don't take it seriously. i have friends who had the flu and was asymptomatic. not the absolutely sally, the variety of the disease the pathogen causes. if it made fewer people sick but more uniformly killed them we would be taking this virus more seriously. >> like stars one, 10 persons. what do you have to add? >> many countries that have done best are countries that had the sars experience and put in place test and trace regimes necessary to keep it locked down so i hope we all learn the lesson this time. despite the fact compared to the plague killing a third of the european population, if you
look at the economic impact of covid 19 maybe not up there with the plague but it is massive and partially because we live in a much more connected world where most people need to be together in order to produce stuff. at the time of the black death in europe most people were living in small villages, the plague, there was so little contact with the outside world and they were self-sufficient, didn't need to go anywhere. they were working on futile farms. today that doesn't work. luckily this disease came along when more people can work virtually, me included. many people still need to do their work in places with other people and faces horrible choice of do i go to work at risk my life or do i not go to work and not have any money?
the economic effects of this pandemic, another listen for next time to look beyond, we need to make sure it is affordable to stay home and we need the safety net in place so that people don't have to face the choice of risking death and salvation. i exaggerate somewhat in terms of the impact. that is a global response. all of this has to be global. the vaccine distribution, they need to stay home to stay healthy, needs to be global. >> that is a big ask, right? do you have any idea how to do that?
>> it involved checks to everybody. pakistan hasn't managed to do it for everybody but 80% of the population received payments. mobile money payments it is possible to do that part of it. where does the money come from? i would look to international institutions. if we learned anything from eradicating smallpox it is a massive benefit globally to eradicating the disease everywhere. we probably won't manage that but we can certainly control it to such a level that is economically a bit of any relevance but only if we do it globally and that will be in everybody's economic interest so it indicates where rich countries need to owning up in their self-interest in order to make sure we can make the
global response. >> you could make the argument on moral grounds that it is the right thing to do for us to vaccinate the world and i think the rich countries now include china, japan, the eu, russia, the united states to band together because it is the moral thing and as charles is emphasizing we need trading partners but also epidemiological he in our interests because we do not want countries around the world with an vaccinated populations that serve as petri dishes for the emergence of new worrisome strains of the virus. it is in our interest to vaccinate the world. also in our interest to set up a global surveillance system not just to protect these viruses and other pathogens like viruses and others microbes that cause illness, not just to detect them for the benefit of these local situations but give us a warning system. we want to know if new worrisome strains of the virus are emerging in south america because they will inevitably come to our shores and now with
6-month warning we could develop booster shots. it is a huge statement in global cooperation to confront just like climate change or nuclear war these require global response for better or worse. >> covid 19 is not an man-made disease but we have a global treaty around man-made inspection. the un body that runs it has five people to monitor compliance with biological weapons convention and it will probably be worth ramping up the capacity to monitor the threat of intentional pandemics in the future because not this time but it may be only a matter of time.
>> i want to remind everybody you can ask our office questions in the chat box and i will share them so that you can learn what you want to learn but opening up to questions, i want to ask you about part of your book that was fascinating to me which is the russian flu and it's possible relationship to oc 43. tell us about that. >> there was a worldwide pandemic in 1890, caused by influenza, but suggestive evidence but possibly that was a prior coronavirus, not influenza. there is genetic evidence of
this and clinical evidence that i review in the book and the idea was there was a great calling of cattle back then and concerned that the virus spread to us, to humans and spread worldwide, took 70 days to get from moscow to new york on train, spread by train in europe and boats across the atlantic, arrived 70 days later and causes many of the same symptoms, in 1890, jokes about how we didn't need to wear masks, this is just a racket, the bandanna sellers trying to sell their bandannas. was out to get you.
what typically happens is, the pathogen and host is kind of a symbiotic relationship, the pathogen and host reach kind of equilibrium over time because the pathogen doesn't want to kill us from a darwinian point of view. a pathogen that kills you stops its ability to keep spreading. what the pathogen really wants to do is make you mildly ill, spreading the infection to other people and that is why generally though not always, they predominate over time compared to deadlier versions, one of the theories what may have happened is over the last century this coronavirus causes the common cold like oc 43,
with 30% of common colds caused by coronavirus's, one of those species people think or some people think, one of those species may be a distant echo of a serious global pandemic from 100 years ago and there's a good chance that is true and likely ultimate fate of the current coronavirus. you will be exposed to it as a child, you will have a mild and not deadly illness, you will develop some immunity and periodically be re-exposed into adulthood to get mild courses of illness because you had prior exposure that was not deadly like common cold and other diseases like chickenpox for example. i think that could be the case.
>> one of our viewers asked if we were going to let you talk about your books but that is in your book. we are talking about your book. so thank you for that. loretta asked the question. loretta asked as we move forward after vaccines in isolation after more online work and lingering fears should we take strong steps to regain the collective benefit of our social nature what interventions will be needed? >> life will return to normal and that is a common scene we are emphasizing that plagues afflicted us for thousands of years and eventually returned to normal. you can be cynical about this joke surgeons say that all bleeding stops eventually.
all plagues end eventually. this one will end. life will return to normal. i think it will take a number of years for a variety of reasons for life to return to normal and i do not think special procedures will be required to encourage us to regain a more social safety nature. some changes are here to stay like working from home and using this type of technology to communicate, some of those technological changes will be permanent but primarily i think we will return to normal life eventually. >> jane asks you for your guess as to when we will get back to some semblance of normal life. >> depends on how you define normal but i think it will be a number of years. through the end of 2021 through the beginning of 2022 despite
rollout of the vaccine it will take time to vaccinate enough people or have people be nationally exposed before we reach the magic threshold known as herd immunity. when we reach that threshold the virus will be behind us, the virus will still be present, it will still kill us but the exclusive academic -- epidemic will be behind us but like a tsunami that washes up ashore and devastates the land, the waters reseed but there is a lot of debris and we as a society have to clean up the debris between half 1,000,001 million americans will have died, 5 times as many will be disabled. i'm not talking about long or short covid but people who recover from the disease but whose bodies have been harmed, millions of americans with disability, millions of children who miss school, millions of american who lost their jobs, millions of businesses who close, trillions of dollars will have been borrowed commenting on the
long-term economic impact of this printing of money. that will take time to respond until 2023 or 2024 and then we will into the post pandemic period which is a little bit of a party similar to the roaring 20 plants, people will seek out social opportunities in nightclubs and restaurants and bars and sporting events and political rallies and musical concerts, people will be liberally spending their money, entrepreneurship and so on and put the plague behind us and this coming summer there will be a period like that too. it is too early because of rising vaccinations and covid fatigue and summer weather and people will be outside and mitigate transmission, we will have a better summer but next winter we will have another
wave, not as bad as last winter and all of this and i will shut up, depends on various concerns. if we have newly emergent variants that are deadly or evade the vaccine then all bets are off with what i just said. >> we want to talk about the printing of money, talk about the printing of money please and print some for me please. >> things will go back to normal and we pretty much know because they have so often in the past. if you look at the words of the black death, england and france through the hundred years war take six months and go straight back at it, natural ability to get on with things if you will and people talking about this,
cities couldn't survive but the vast majority, mass infectious killers, with death rates higher than rural areas. it will go back to being no longer true very soon and people want to go to restaurants, where are the bars and restaurants, somewhat worried, the human cost is been horrible and human costs will reverberate in a number of ways. i wasn't born in the states. i came from the uk. my wife is american, 20% of the us married population married someone from elsewhere, that pretty much stopped, new
additions pretty much stopped, it is that kind of human interaction but the fact that what drives innovation is people coming to together and there were investors going off around the world and that could go on for a decade or two, a ripple effect, pretty much shutting down, that economic effect i worry about most. the world borrowed a lot of money, the developing world hasn't borrowed enough money, a greater response from the international monetary fund allow them to borrow more money but rich countries bar a lot of money, with low interest rates. it was the right thing to do and we may get away with not
paying too much, but to be frank what i'm more worried about is the thing that underpins two centuries of global progress taken away from it for years and that was people connecting. >> you have complicated thoughts about travel bans but kathleen wants to know what you think about vaccination cards and i will extend it to that kind of thing. >> as a rule the travel bans we introduce were too late to have much impact. the impact they mainly had packed people into airports and have them wait in long lines to get into the country, probably not what you want to do in the midst of a pandemic. i feel differently.
on travel bans in new zealand at the moment in taiwan i would at least want to have strict quarantine in place like they do. vaccine passports the same way, i don't think that is a great way to stop the spread of the disease, they may have impact on encouraging people to get vaccinated. it is hardly as if they are a new thing, a yellow fever card to cross a number of them, it is not a new idea. during the plague you have to get permission to travel between the cities and this has been around a long time. it is not necessarily a great tool to prevent to encourage them to get vaccinated. >> the businesses.
>> there is nothing new about this. journalists and ordinary travelers have known about the necessity of these yellow cards that have been issued for decades but to integrate into our country we require 20 different communicable diseases that is available, permanently into our country, many employers have vaccination is a condition of employment. i am required to prove to my employer about a flu vaccine. if you work in veterinary medicine it goes on and on. there's nothing unusual, whether we call it a vaccine passport or vaccine card is
irrelevant, in terms of private businesses, there are exceptions in terms of public accommodation, you can't set up a business and say i'm not going to serve people of certain religion or race for example but absent that we need to allow business holders to think twice. if i am a business holder i want my employees to be vaccinated partly because i don't want to be sued by my other employees who say i got sick at work and you didn't enforce public health precautions or my customers, i want my customers to feel safe. businesses should be allowed to make their own rules and i'm greatly amused by governor desantis and other republican governors who for years after extolling private property and private enterprise as a right of businesses suddenly want to prohibit businesses from promulgating these regulations.
the thing that is distinctive about communicable diseases is my behavior imposed a risk, if i act in a self-injurious way, make the argument the state has no role in preventing me from acting foolishly and taking my own life. if my foolish behavior imposes a risk on others, it is a can on a call case that seems justifiable. this has been understood for 100 years. famous case is about mandated vaccination 100 years ago and again and again the courts ruled public health authorities may implement a number of constraints on individual liberty in the name of the common good just like we conscript in times of war, the state drafts you into the army and exposes you to risk of death. we allow a state to do that when we face and external threats really can allow a
state to mandate vaccinations. >> just to pile on most people should get the vaccine, a small group but shouldn't because they have suppressed immune systems for some reason or another but if you could get the vaccine but choose not to get the vaccine you are increasing their risk and they have no choice, of getting the disease. you are having a really nasty and non-counter rubble effect on the quality of life of others so i agree the state has a role here. >> 74 minutes left. you can get these books, at the bookshop, there is a link, also
listen to my podcast, petri dish, and npr, so give that on spotif, and i will try to get to your question. i want to ask these gentlemen to wrap up with the second title which is covid-19, how it has changed us. how do you think it has changed us. >> made it more lonely, killed a lot of people, not only it killed a lot of people but left a lot of people with permanent disabilities of one sort or
another, not just physical, it is a disaster us year for millions of people losing loved ones, losing their jobs, housing, livelihoods, that is the way it worked. for all of us lucky enough not to experience that directly in our immediate families loneliness would be the big thing and i don't think we can underestimate how bad that is for a social species. bad to our very core. it is really bad for the global economy. what has led to 200 years of immense economic and social
progress, life expectancy going from 33 past 70 worldwide, the last few decades worldwide more educated than ever before, lower rates, what lies behind all of that is close to global connectivity and people coming together to create things and yanked out of the way and if you look beyond the immediate cost in terms of health and that is the biggest and most tragic thing. also, we understand the importance of working together at the global community to confront these threats because we understand how terrible they are. >> how has it changed us? >> don't have much to add to that.
i talk about you have to define the time horizon. what is happening in the next one 234 years and what is happening long-term. i don't think will change is very much long-term just like charles said, during times of plague people flee the cities, they will return. they always return. there has been a cessation in the progress of globalization but the economic arguments in favor of globalization are so compelling, that is how it will reverse. some others, a way in which plagues, on the relationship front if you are about to get married during times of plague people get married and if you get divorced during times of plague, let's get it over with kind of thing. they accelerate technologies.
zoom technology before the plague has been accelerated. it has been accelerated. before the plague it has been accelerated. there have been a variety of ways over the short term there are some changes in our society, education, real estate, people work from home, in terms of technology you mentioned. just to sum up long-term i don't think there will be radical changes, short-term there will be a number of them in various parts very economy and social life. >> don't have that to get to. on twitter, tweet them and you can look for their handles on
my twitter page, i don't know your handle off the top of my head but you can find them there or just share your handles or answer questions. >> if you google us. >> great, fantastic, thank you both so much for your time. this was a fantastic extremely interesting conversation. you both were extremely interesting books but no more time, no more bookshop, get copies for your self. thank you, both of you, let's say the title, apollo's arrow, the impact of coronavirus on ways we live. and the unending war between humanity and infectious
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