so for thean people who want to just the republic there's one group of folks. some of their problems would even out, they would get protection from mexico they would join a larger economy they would go forward as part of the united statesth of america. for lots of people that was the plan all along. failures to the republic might not of been surprising to them. the ultimate goal was something else in statehood. >> roberto is calling in from texas. >> river history teacher here in texas i have two points to make doctor gordon reed. one, you kind of evaded the issue. but critical race theory is going to be coming up this month in the state

legislature. they want to forbid it. i think you should put on your joan of arc armor and come to austin and speak about the issues are to be the stumbling block any kind of glossed over which i hope you give more thought too. tired history teacher i haveet a concern too. when is it age-appropriate to bring up the issues, the true history? we have a book that states forget the alamo. why not come up with the true history. you keep mentioning the state competition in this constitution and that that is much too highha a level for gradeschool kids to be reading. so i wish you would give more thought. i do think that's going to be a crucial question someone from the republicans here in the state want to hear from

you. >> i think we got the points, annette gordon reed? when is it age-appropriate to talk about race in history? myra kelman is a writer who wrote a book about jefferson the biography of jefferson for children who are five -- seven years old. she talks about sally hemming. she does it inng a way that is brilliant and completely age-appropriate. i don't see why you couldn't talk about or raise the question about the texas republic and younger grades. i don't think there is a problem. not reading the constitution but there are ways to talk about anything.

i have seen all really good books for young people, kids that i am talking about now certainly to elementary school , middle school natalie is on a wonderful biography of thomas jefferson that comes up all of thes stuff. it's an age-appropriate way. i think there is a way to do it. coming down there talking about all this, there are plenty of people on that hamatter. i do know people gotten very, very aggressive about this. this is the citizens of texas to stand up, stand up against censorship. stand up against the idea you can't talk about the truth. i am of a mind kids are more interesting than we think they are. i've seen so many examples of writing about the issues about

race in children's books. i think it's not the case that there are not ways to bring this to the floor in a sensitive and reasonable way. we went another text for you know city or name, is renaming a school from jefferson middle school like so many in the u.s. jefferson -- hemmings middle school a solution prompts rather than ripping away history? >> i don't see a reason to call the jefferson hemmings we name schools after people because of their connection to either a community or their contributions to the nation. that is why jefferson named a school after jefferson.

i don't see any purpose i would not say saying jefferson hemming school solves the problem the issue was that he is a person who has such an effect on so many aspects of american history that it's kind of hard to move him to the side in a way. i am for in that situation, you name that to keep that name if you want. on the other hand jefferson himself said the earth belongs to the living and every generation of people has a right to pick their heroes. if you want to renamets your school or somebody today is doing something you think represents your generation, represents your place better he would probably say and i

would say is will do that. i would not see it as imperative the d naming we call it versus renaming. jefferson hemmings i would not be opposed to it i don't think it solves a problem with jefferson what people are concerned about with jefferson as a slaveholder. stu went kate in sacramento follows up on that then, her question is your thoughts on removal of statues prominent federals. >> prominent federals of been on the record to say i don't see any reason why this should be statues of confederates in public spaces. that's not just a racial question people fought against the united statesin of america tried to destroy the united states of america,s battlefields coming up gettysburg is on everyone's

mind at this point and vicksburg to matter fact, battlefields is one thing, cemeteries is one thing, public squares i don't see is ans insult to union soldiers. you can talk aboutyo reconciliation. we cannot make that choice for the people who were killed and died during that war. there is the values of the confederacy which are announced in its constitution. the corner stone that says essentially that africans were meant to be enslaved it's an inferiority it is a cornerstone of society. there's nothing we can get fromet them we cannot get better from other people without all the baggage that is there.

confederates i don't have any problem withal the removal of the statutes. we will continue to learn about them. people don't learn from statues or names of buildings you get the history book will always talk about robert e lee and jefferson davis. and what happened there secession from the union and the destruction of the united states of america will talk about those kindsri of things but it does not have to be a statutes. i would be for removing those statues from public places, private properties, cemeteries, battlefields. >> host: does it surprise you right across the river here in arlington, virginia they rename the highway about a year ago? >> it does not surprise me. it's an attempt as david said

to reconcile a country that of been torn apart but going too far, going too far with that. not thinking about the feelings and the sensibilities in one part of the citizenry that african-americans have been enslaved in the confederacy. and unionism. white people in the north and south remain loyal to the american nation which we talk about johnson that was a good point he believed in the american union. she went back to kate in sacramento's text she has a follow-up question, who is yourur next play in a book subject in my i suggest clara barton stone both outspoken abolitionist. speech i have a couple of projects i had to interrupt to do juneteenth here and i ended

up pushing aside for the moment. i'm doing a second volume of the hemmings family story. i am taking them from charlottesville after jefferson dies in 1826 and taken up to the civil war. and dropping them off at the beginning of the 20th century the first couple decades of the 20th century the great war. things change after that, world war i. a lot of the world began in the old world they were part of theyy are not a coherent subject matter to me anymore after that. maybe mention some people who continue on. basically ending there. and i'm ensuring a jefferson reader on race. i have been perhaps been preparing for a while and i want to knock this out pretty quickly.

all of his significant writings on race. not just those in the state of virginia but looking at his memorandum book, his letters and his comments about race and i do a commentary. that is what i am working on now. and my editor has been asking me foror a while to do a book about texas a big book about texas. this will take a career for me too do all three of these things. those are the next things in the fight. >> host: john is in new york, you are on the air. john, before we begin turn down the volume on your tv. otherwise we get an echo.

go ahead. >> caller: john is gone. let's try evelyn in philadelphia, evelyn you are on the air. three hello. >> host: hi evelyn. three i want to make two comments. my husband james and i have been doing genealogy research all of our life. and my husband his great-great-grandfather's killed by the union troops by stealing horse. [inaudible] we found some of the articles in the "new york times". what my concern isn't what i'm i'm looking at is the fact that, were both in our 80s we have a story to tell we tell every chance we get, we tell the story of her ancestors. what's found through dna testing that my father was married a second time. my mother the third time. in pittsburgh and got

involved the convict leasing system for and if was born 1894. he was jailed for three months working the coal mines in the convict leasing system. very cruel system. how that abolish slavery it shdid not burn because of that leasing system people were put back into bondage and treated worse than others slavery time. could you speak on that in terms of why do we always say the 13th amendment got rid of slavery but it did not. it existed under the convict leasing system. could you speak on that please question mike i have all of your books i am sitting here in ode juneteenth easy-to-read not many pages i thank you for that. >> evelyn q tells a us a little bit about you and your husband?

[laughter] we have been married 65 years. we are very close to our grandparents. we were kids coming out you did not ask elderly people questions. one decigram for you a slave? she said no i was not a slave. but i used to have to wash the white women's feet reticent to my grandmom, you had wash the white women's feet? i did not have the wherewithal to ask her a ladies maid. i find that doing research. as i said we traveled all over the world we do research on the blacks were. beginning with the black b story , i had a nephew who had a dna test. this young lady reached out to him they communicated back and forth and back and forth. finally she said and looking for my grandfather. oh yeah? and she asked in these questions he said you need to talk to my aunt honey. that is what she does. so he said is it okay if i

give your phone number andoe i said yes sure. so he gave her my telephone number and she called and we talked and talked. finally she said yes i'm looking for my grandfather and i wondered if you can help me. i said let me get pencil and paper. he said i will e-mail it to you preach she did and my erhusband was on the computer he said honey are you sitting down? and he handed me the paper and i found out this young lady, her grandfather is my father. that's what started me doing the research. that got me doing records he was in jail he is not led to read or write. so we have stories to tell her trying to get our program together and get our paperwork together so we can pass this on to our future generations. that's it would do all the time. we go to senior centers and schools and we teach kids. and thatrs we just do it if someone says looking for

so-and-so i just did research for a lady they are very prominent in this area. i found out i had never done research i found a slave who gave a narrative when they are doing slave narratives. >> evelyn thank you for that extra progress we appreciatenk it. speech is an interesting point it's the 13th amendment the things that have happened in the leasing system being arrested for vagrancy. they try to enact laws that brought things as closely back to slavery as possible. we talk about the aftermath of the war the principal difference is work at the will of others.

on the things people celebrated juneteenth was the end of the legal ability to sell peoples spouses, their brothers or their sisters are raised from one another. slavery was working without pay, but being labeled property or chattel meant and the slavery died and he had children the enslaved people could be separated amongst the children they could live in different places and people could be separated from their families. sales or money or whatever. those kind of actions were traumatizing for enslaved people.

at the end of slavery besides going to the freedmen's bureau was to look for relatives. to go out and find my mother, my kids, my sister, my brother. i really do think one of the reasons juneteenth has become one of the aspects of juneteenth that keptt it alive for 166 years as it is a family holiday. people come together. they gather togetherer with families those airports in the summer and people walking around the garish t-shirts on the reed family reunion, the shaw familyhe reunion. the notion of gathering people together i am convinced was out of trauma and desire to keep people together for hundreds ofve years.

and slavery is to be separated and the never to be seen again you see that never to be seen again. just imagine that we use relatives to death and sometimes estrangement. but not somebody coming in and saying no we need money so your three children were going to sell them into louisiana or whatever. that kind of thing left a marker. people have tried to recruit from that evert since. >> annette gordon reed, aaron and her husband dr. jo pierce aree prominent couple in san antonio i've mentioned several times ates the texas book festival in austin. mrs. pierce e-mailed me separately to say texas history museum has abruptly canceled the speech by the author's new c book a on alamo.

at above you are familiar with that book. in texas is to keep the truth from competing with myth, this is crazy andel related to censorship. i know we touched on the alamo a minute ago. i wanted to acknowledge that e-mail. speech have heard about that situation. the streisand effect. i think when you draw attention to things like this this will probably make people go outve and read the book even more. people don't like to have ideas kept from them. that is an unfortunate situation i have not read the book yet. that should be on my nightstand next too. >> host: will be on the book festival circuit this fall? >> i think so. i'm supposed to be in the book

circuit this fall. i'm hoping we will be able to be there in person. the virtual things are nice but it's also nice to be out and meet people. you know what those are like. stuart yes texas is in person this year. in cleveland ohio go ahead neville. >> my question for professor gordon reed is related to sally hemmings. the name sally hemmings and we know her story. what i miss is a visual, and image, a depiction of sally. you see from time to time descriptions that she was mighty white and she had a

long straight hair down her head. that was three-quarter european. but i don't see many sketches. i don't see many images. i don't see many pictures which depict sally hemmings. conductor read say something about that for me please? >> host: thank you neville. >> guest: we don't have many pictures of her. they have imagined ideas of looked like. they do those reproductions of her. but we don't have any pictures there's nothing to go on. we don't have any images of jefferson's wife. there may be a couple silhouettes of her. strangely enough she didn't have portraits a or the

portraits were destroyed by fire. it's interesting she did not sit for a portrait is a married woman. these two sisters completely different places in the hierarchy, neither of them do we have any visual images of. we would expect to have one of martha, maybe not sally mi hemmings. the first images of the hemmings family of her grandchildren. but we do not have portraits of martha or of sally. a high school social studies teacher my tenth grade colligan i have assigned

juneteenth is for a tenth grade honor students in making the decision regarding conversations with students are mostly white involved with the local rights committee a few students expressed to us about race and gender or identity as a teacher i respect and understand where students areta coming from wanted to discuss this further the summer a lot to digest th there. >> guest: students only want books by people writing about a community for which they come from. other words they don't books from white people about black people? t see when think that's were headed here.

>> guest: from the best books about slavery for example have been by white authors. i understand their desire to use people who are writing about personal issues, it's a history book but it is a memoir as well. talk about growing up as a black person in texas in general i can understand why you're talking about straight history, white authors write about black people. there is a book on frederick douglass paired i write about

thomas jefferson. the memoir part is more personal. the number of people call me doctor gordon reed. i am not a doctor. i am fortunately an appointment in history in the do not have i did it backwards but i wrote a my book and then i got into the department. so i'm just professort gordon reed or gordon reed or annette depending on how well you know me. went the next call for annette gordon reed is from martha in maine. go ahead martha. >> caller: hi peter. i missed a part of the program so i hope i'm not repeating a someone else for professor gordon reed. i am a retired maryland public school teacher.

i am very upset about the controversy you 1619 project and the pulitzer organization offering $5000 to underpaid school teachers to teach, whatever that is supposed to be. i'm really quite upset about it i would like her knowledge or opinion please. >> host: thank you martha. >> guest: i knows is a controversial subject for people. i don't know about paying people, i don't know anything abouteo that program or what she is referring to. i think it is a point of discussion. it is a point of discussion. 1619 project from what i have read is a number of essays is not just one. have the lead essays the one

that cause problems for number of people, other people that is problematic for one reason or another. i think it should be discussed. i think there are other parts of it that i think be very illuminating to students. and would be useful. there are opposing viewpoints that could be discussed as well. as were talking before forget the alamo in other instances. i don't think censoring things from being discussed is the way to go. if it's out thereit it's in the public eye. students have an appropriate age should be made aware and discuss it. if it's problematic you could raise those. you could bring opposing views , i think it's much better to

discuss things for the bottom line on this. >> were going to close with this text, high annette remember meet david hoover covid 1977. [laughter] i just text mark evans to say you were on, question have you seen your mural on the square? what did you think, love your work. >> thank you this is amazing. david and i were very good friends. yes i've seen the mural, i've seen the bust. also learn the going to name a school after me in my hometown. which shows you some of the changes that are taking place over the years. people are kinda very supportive of me. what we have 30 seconds left gives a history of this mural, what happened? >> guest: some admirers and my

mother's friends put a mural up in my hometown went down for the availing of the bus i could not go down the for the mural. >> host: which school is going to be named after you do know? >> guest: an elementary school that they're building is going to be opened in august. >> host: annette gordon reed we often ask our authors or theirut favorite book and annette gordon reed sent us this list to by james baldwin the devil finds work, hg wells experiment and biography, the little prince in a single manned by christopher currently reading a book called the hidden of the cruelty is the point by adam and the papers of thomas jefferson the price is another book she's currently reading annette gordon reed has been

our guestroom book tv for the past two hours. very much appreciate your time. >> thank you for inviting me. ♪ ♪ weekends on cspan2 aren't intellectual every saturday american history tv documents america story and on sunday book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors prints funding for cspan2 comes from these television companies and more. including. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ medco along with these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> looked out some books being published this week. and here brightman is a tenant

colonel alexander bennett reflects on his career indecision to report president trump's call to the craney and president that led to his first impeachment. national security peter bergen looks at the life of osama bin laden and the rise and fall of us, bin laden. an honor bound, amy recalls her military service decision to enter politics and run against mitch mcconnell. also being published wall street tech provider is sealant musk and powerplay. in the ambassador, historian susan reynolds describes joseph p kennedy time as ambassador in great britain in the lead up to world war ii. and rebecca daughter tells a story of american mildred who led an underground resistance group in germany during world war ii and all of the frequent troubles of our day. finally settles this week or per books are sold and watch for many of the authors to

appear in the near future on book tv. >> 's on book tv cnn analyst former federal prosecutor argues that william barr is the most corrupt attorney general of modern times. then an in-depth look at the rise and fall of shared workspace company we work. a profile of its founder adam newman. and later american enterprise institute senior fellow, winner of the isi conservative book of the year award for a time to build, delivers his acceptance speech. find more schedule information booktv.org or consult your program guide. :