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tv   In Depth Annette Gordon- Reed  CSPAN  August 13, 2021 6:01pm-8:04pm EDT

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regret it. it was what i was feeling and it was four years of pent up anxiety about what was transpiring in front of our eyes. we'll also hear from democrat jaime raskin orion pet fitzpatrick of pennsylvania by january 6, fuse from the house sunday at 10 eastern on c-span, c-span.org or listen on the c-span radio app. >> host: annette gordon-reed are we that exceptional mace mason we often tell ourselves we are? >> guest: we are trying to be. >> host: in what way? >> guest: i think there are a number of people in society who are working to make the ideals of the declaration a reality the ideals that are expressed in tht
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preamble about equality and about happiness i think we have that idea and trying to reach that potential. >> host: would the founders and this is one of those silly questions that would the founders recognize who we are today? >> guest: no, of course not. some aspects of it they would but most iof of it women participating in politics blacks participating in politics all those kind of things would have been foreign to them of course and the power of the united states. at the time we were talking about 1776 this was the 13 colonies in the middle of nowhere and they don't have the power to obtain an empire and be a become an empire. i don't think they would have seen all that has happened to the united states up to this point. >> host: annette gordon-reed if he weighed in on the 1776 versus 6019 debate that we are having in the country right now? >> guest: i mean doing
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interviews and things like that but i not written anything about it. i may have had a few tweets or something but no in depth about it. >> host: what are your initial thoughts? >> guest: well myni thoughts are and what i've said before is 1619 if that's what you are referring to talked about the beginning of slavery in the north american colonies and it sets the context for 1776. 1776 because it's the beginning of what we call the beginning of the country and these people were acting within the content. there was slavery in all 13fo colonies.ut and it introduces new dilemmas and we can talk about that are not.
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this idea of all men are created equal of the society which a good number of people are. there is no paradox in 1619. the anguish at that time are not saying things about all men are created equal. it comes an issue in the united states breaks away and on the basis of the document that proclaims this universalal idea. >> host: where did that clause come from? >> guest: this was a way of trying to apportion congress in the south wanted to discount slaves totally so they'd have better representation and this was a compromise between the northern states in the southern states even at the beginning concern about who's going to have power in society. these were different colonies but the regions were different in lots of ways. thege individual colonies were
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different but the regions have their own ways of life and not just between big states and small states but states that have people. this is a way ofof compromisingo allow colonies that were used to being alone for them to come together in union. >> host: this was not an easy process, was the? >> guest: no, not at all. when we think of states as states within the union but they sell themselves as different places and when jefferson talked about virginia he talked about his country and that's what he meant come his country of virginia because it had been a separate colony. it didn't become a nation all at once but they created a union and that was a difficult process and a lot of compromises were made and compromises that were ending up sowing the seeds for
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papering over differences that came to a head in the 1860s. >> host: one of those founders that you've written three books about thomas jefferson when did your and just start in him? >> guest: my interest of mr. jefferson started an element orch school and in the classroo, with a separate library but in the back of the classroom we had a library and it had the kind to books you would expect for third-graders. it was when i was in the third grade and biographies of various american figures dolley madison, booker t. washington george washington carver thomas jefferson and i read the jefferson biography that year during my third grade year and the book was supposed to be a biography of him but something that was told by a fictional boy who was supposed to be
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jefferson's companion. the book bothered me because it portrayed the boy as not wanting to learn and exacerbate -- exasperated with jefferson. and they knew at the same time as the lack person that my classmates -- as in black person at the same time they were asking jefferson about his intelligence i thought of myself as intelligent and serious and i wanted to learn how to read. i loved reading and i couldn't see why the slave boy had to be portrayed that way. from that time i've read other age-appropriate books aboutre monticello and the time to think about slavery as well and here's
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a person who wrote the declaration of independence but at the same time was a slave owner and what is that about? my interest started in school and it continued well up until now i guess. >> host: was your schools segregated at that point or had he been integrated? >> guest: actually this -- i integrated to schools in my hometown of connor texas when i was in first grade and by the time i got to the third grade things had changed. there were more black kids in the school. i was there by myself at first but then there were supreme court cases that required the immediate integration of all the schools and they were more of blacks at anderson which is were i was when i wrote about jefferson. integration was new at the time.
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>> host: you write in your most recent book "on juneteenth." >> guest: my parents and the school district and the town newspaper decided we would makeh a big deal about it and they wouldd make a big deal about it but i would just go and it would be nothing unusual. of course it was very unusual. i remember during that first year there started delegation of educators and people coming to stand in the doorwayng to look t us, me and these five or so white kids who were in class with me to see how the experiment was going. it was an intense time. my mother said at one point --
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which might have been a stress reaction by the a look back at that time period and i remember some of the bad stuff but that i spoke of my overall feelings which was of excitement at doing in school and learning things. that was galvanized. there were some white kids who wereni not nice to me but my teacher my first gradeto teacher in my second grade teacher these were my formative years were just fantastic and wonderful to me. they did everything they could to make everything run smoothly but they were bombs and as you can imagine. >> host: in her book annette gordon-reed has written three about thomas jefferson, thomas jefferson and sally hemings and the second "the hemingses of montcello" guccione the national book award in the pulitzer prize for that book in her most recent
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along with author peter ana is most blessed of the pager ex-pat whyy did jefferson referred himself is most blessed of the patriarch's? >> guest: yet c a farm and he had people and he had power and all these kinds of things. he was the patriarch of this particular era and he found himself that way. i insisted that we put that in quotes in the book because i didn't want people to think that we were calling them that. it was his identity. we look at this as negative and that's why i didn't want to be associated with calling them that but he saw himself as a person who had responsibility and that's what he meant.
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we look at him as a slaveholder and a father has control of his daughters and this was a bit much. hean sighed as oh here are all e people that i'm responsible for that i'm supposed to take care of and that was his image of himself. we thought that phrase he calls himself that a couple of times for scott how long have we known about sally hemings? sqa dependsab on who we are. people in the african-american community have this story from the 19th century and referenced it. the story came out in the 1790s and sally hemings names
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in 1802 so it had been in the public sphere since the beginning of the 19th century. it was rediscovered in the 1950s whennc they found matteson hemings recollection as a novelist who is a jefferson person as well and brought it to the attention of jefferson scholars. it shed new light. they didn't talk about explicitly never look but in the 70s she wrote about it in her biography of thomas jefferson and she put the recollection in the back of her look. he said in 1873 that he was the son of john -- thomas jefferson and sally hemings so that recollection now that was in the public eye that was the first
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time. i read it since i was 14 years old and that was the first time i had seen a narrative by a former person and that really interested me to think about someone in that kind of the decrement. they knew that slave owners had children and women and there were children born and connections between these people and raise another connections. i knew that but to have us talking about it in person and an individual who may been interested with someone who read road on the story. >> host: how widespread are the descendents of jefferson and sally hemings? >> guest: very widespread. madison hemings had about 12 kids. i don't think his sons had children but his daughters have lots of kids. there are lots of people around the country who are descended --
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who are his descendents. i have met a good number of them and corresponded with a good number of them.d it then to a family reunion with them and including some people from jefferson's legal family but it's really widespread. they have lots of kids in those days than those generations. so there are lots of them. >> host: annette gordon-reed have they've been officially recognized by the family? >> guest: you know i don't think so. the associations of jefferson descendent i don't believe they have and i'm almost certain because it would have been in the news and i would have heard something about that i don't know how many of them are actually seeking that recognition because they had their family story and that their family story.
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that is pretty much their attitude about it. >> host: well the c-span presidential historian survey just came out. we do this every four years after an election in two presents you've written about extensively thomas jefferson came in at number seven again and has been consistently at number seven. and andrew johnson came in secondnd to last right above jas buchanan. you think those are acurate ratings?do >> guest: i would say so. when my book about johnson came out i was the one year he was listed as the worse. i think that's about right. he was not a good president. he was a terrible person. the thing about buchanan and johnson they both did things
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that were at the bottom of the list of presidents and jefferson should be in the top 10. it's probably about right. >> host: why is that in your view? >> guest: probably because louisiana doubled in size in the country and that happened during his presidency and it was his joy. that was a controversial thing because people thought about whatan that meant for the extension of slavery and what it meant for indigenous people in that area. it is the beginning of the united states, the continental united states. when i fill those surveys out i don't think about necessarily about how i feel about a particular action or a particular president and their policies but i think about how they exercise power in the
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office and what they did it was the moment and that helps change alp country so certainly that ws a claim to fame for him and his first inaugural address his first term was a successful term in the second one there was the embargo and alll kinds of issue. the second term is always perilous for president but i think he definitely belongs in thelo top 10. the declaration that they were talking talking about in speaking of he gets points for that as well. even though he is not president i think it's a cumulative score for him but i would say louisiana and some of the things he did in his first term and setting the tone. this idea about the people as sovereign rulers. jeffersonian is some which definitely continues even after his president in his afterlife.
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madison and monroe takes their place after him and jackson who we don't speak much of. there's john quincy but jackson saw himself even though jefferson didn't admire him so it's the influence of jefferson. there is an age of jefferson that we think of and that's part of his presidency. >> host: were you asked to write and andrew jackson biography by the american president series? guess why was asked. arthur schlessinger jr. who wrote the papers of thomas jefferson and i knew him from that and the other editor had been the editor of the book i did with vernon jordan.
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both of them i knew and liked and it was only 4000 words and i said sure. it's not something i would ever had out of the blue thought of doing. looking into itt i realized even though johnson is not a terribly pleasant person which could be a partisan situation but the guys is if you want to spen time with someone and writing about them. he was present during a pivotal moment and he made fateful decisions that put in place other fateful decisions. he is not attractive as a man and as a character but the role that heth played as president is pivotal in people should know about him because of that. >> host: the only southern senator not to leave the senate. >> host: exactly and that's why lincoln traded in his
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original bases because it was h symbolic. link and wanted to send a message see, we can get back together. s i can have this southern peace but a seven or my ticket a person who is level and we can go forward together with this but it was a disaster. >> host: the one thing i picked up in your biography was you referred to johnson quote quirky and independent. >> guest: yeah. he came from nowhere essentially. he was the apprentice and he didn't learn how to read until he was a late teenager and his wife taught them how to write. it's a good quality in some ways. it's sticktoitiveness and perseverance.e he didn't really accept
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limitations. he came from a working-class background and he would have been looked down upon but he didn't let himself be hampered by that. he. held basically every office that you could have mayor, governor and he fought his way up to vice president end of course he became president because of the tragedy but yeah he had grit. there is not a lot of other things to commend him in my book other than -- to the unit was important enough to keep thing. independent street is grit and is loyal to the union was great. there is something there along with as i said being in a pivotal role at a pivotal time
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in history. >> host: before we leave andrew johnson i want to ask about dolly. the slave girl. >> host: guest:we don't know much about her. there arechou people who claim m johnson knew her but there's not that much known. because might look was about his presidency wane don't necessarily talk about the personal lives of the present but the main thing is to talk about their policies and the workings of their presidency. i didn't go into detail in talking about people. >> host: annette gordon-reed back to the presidential survey of 22 and put out by c-span andrew jackson has been dropping
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steadily since 2011 when he was. number 13. he is down to number 22. what does that say about him? >> guest: well it's says generations respond to different public figures differently over time. in much the same way that historians ask different questions of people in the past and situations in the past based upon -- and we have been very interested in the question of indigenous people in the treatment of indigenous people and we are interested in the subject. jackson is an injecting figure because we think of the age of jackson, there's an age of jackson as a rise in american democracy and it was a rise in american democracy but it was a rise iny what people referred o
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as white man's government, the idea that white men should rule and even in situations and places where blacks had the franchise and were able to vote was taken away from them. you have the situation where an expanding, and expansion of talk or see. white men of working-class and lower class are getting power that they didn't have before. by then they could all vote but it's a restriction on lax. what is that mean? and how do we celebrate this rise in one area and a restriction on the other side like native americans and the .indian removal which had been a policy before jackson but jackson's treatment oftr native americans has been seen as a problem and i'm putting that mildly. as you think about those when
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people weren't thinking about rape and were thinking about the fortunes of african-americans airing this time they were just assuming there's only one way to handle the situation with native americans and it becomes a problematic figure. people like arthur schlessinger and others left him because of the spread of democracy and if you have this notion of progress sort of a historical process inevitably leading to better and better things you can just sort of say well it's okay that they were taking the franchise away from the black people because eventually they would get it. to this torrent something that is inevitable. there is no inevitable that we are working. people could say yeah but we still have to deal with -- you can't think about what happened
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to her words. you have to think about what happens in that particular moment in what we think about the fact that black people who could vote before and now came vote and how do we feel about what c they are doing at that particular time and not saying it's okay because eventually it's going to beme all right. it makes sense but who knows? jeffersons fortunes have risen and fallen over the years. ease inse that trough but it's t likely that he's going to stay there. these things come and go and generations are interested in different things but who knows what we'll be on to in the future? >> guest: a survey is sent out to 100 historians nationwide, eight different criteria and by the way this is available at c-span.org.
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we do it every four years after the end of one president and donald trump is included for the first time on this list. he comes in fourth from the bottom, 897 points for abraham lincoln, during the 12 for donald trump. is it fair to judge somebody six months after the end of his administration? >> guest: as an historian i would say no because that's current events. is that really history? you want time to pass to have some perspective. some of the things that happen in the trump administration the january 6 insurrection in people's belief that he was a gain add-on and in some ways was involved in that i think it's an extraordinary circumstance because if we are filling out a
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survey having come off the something like that so quickly a lot of good judgment comes from that. an extraordinary event sort of shapes the way people decided to do that survey in when they answered it as one of the reasons and there are other things as well but handling of the pandemic.an i don't know that that's the problem but you guys asked the question so they responded on the basis of assisted before with what i think are extraordinary circumstances for a presidency. but ideally you want time to pass. you don't really know what the effects of presidential actions will be. those judgments are less sound than judgments made about people by historians is my view of it. it may be different again about
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the effectiveness of interactions in contemporary times that historians need more time. >> host: june 19, 1865 quote the people of texas are informed that in accordance with a proclamation from the executive of the united states all slaves are free. this involves absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that the twain employer and hired labor. the friedman are devised to remain quietly in their present homes and work for wages. they are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts and they willt t be sent portage and idleness either there or elsewhere. what is that? .. in 1865,
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june 19, 1865 and 1855 to take control of texas and that area after the confederate army. so he issues this order and that is the day we have come to know asno juneteenth, it recently became a federalap holiday. but the civil war ended in april. >> yes, they kept fighting. lee surrendered in april and the army of mississippi kept fighting. it was texas near brownsville, but decided the effort was for not. they surrendered and that's when granger goes in to take control. >> which is trues obviously. >> as a texas native did you grow up knowing about
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juneteenth? >> i did know the detail but granger's all those kinds ofth things. but yes i didn't grow up celebrating juneteenth. people have asked me when i first, i don't remember a time and we were not celebrating, did not celebrate juneteenth. it was a family holiday, a community holiday. i don't recall talking about in school. but this what a holiday that would carry it forward. mainly by people in thehe african-american community. it became a texas state holiday in 1980. butec before then i saw as the black community this is when slaves were freed that is what i would've said as a kid. we barbecued, drink soda water through firecrackers. little kids below the age of
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ten with matches and firecrackers and sparklers in those kind of things that's what i remember about the debris. >> host: were to determine june 18 come from? >> are two different theories. mostly people say it's up mash up of june 19 and take out the nine. and other people said, some people celebrated over a three day period. they were not sure about the date weathers the 18th, 19th or 20th so they saidor juneteenth. i don't know that i buy that. it is written and it was unannounced, there is a story of it being taxed on the door of an african-american episcopal church in galveston. people knew what day it was. the best answer is it is a mashup of june 19 so it is juneteenth trade. >> you were recently in washington at the white house
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weren't you? >> i was, i was. i was therefore the ceremony i was stunned by the quickness in which this all took place. i thought it might be later. i got an e-mail, an invitation or a text and an e-mail invitation to come down to the white house. i quickly hopped on a plane and went down there and made it in time for the ceremony. >> in your most recent book on juneteenth you right there is justnd there so much to misunderstand about texas. misunderstandings that stem from a general lack of attention to or even awareness of the foundational aspects. what does that mean? >> certainly have had this is a transplant of the north
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people think of texas as the land of cowboys and oilmen. an estate in the book texas is constructed in the white man. youar don't know many cowboys that were black that was not the hollywood presentation of them, or the oilmen and the film giant probably exemplifies what people think about texas. the story they tell about texas. once there was a place of cattleman. they have their way of life and then while counting oil pepeople came in and then challenge the cowboys all the sudden they come together and make us do texas. but they leave out the part ouabout plantation owners in east texas of the place where the father of texas does not bring people to texas to become cattle ranchers.
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he brings people to texas they're going to bring enslaved people and they would be protected and texas would take its place as part of the cotton empire. so the foundational aspectas of texas we don't think about much. it was clear that was the intention when the texans break away from mexico. it declared slavery illegal. they were never really secure about that. that was one of the reasons they decided to leave mexico. when they do they set up a constitution that has divisions that expressly protect slavery which prevent people of african descent from
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immigrating there without permission. saying they could never become citizens. not thinking about texas of a slave society after being a slave society. the questions i get, people are confused about certain things they hear coming out of texas. they think what about racial problems talking about race what i it. this is a place full of cowboys a quiet space it's not a space of african-american, people who have anything to do with what we think of as the old south. people think of georgia and mississippi in places like that, not so much texas when it actually was. the purpose of the book was to it's all about the west. the west is important.
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you can't downplay that. but east texas where i grew up, or my ancestors were brought in a couple of cases from georgia and from mississippi was a slave society. you're still dealing with all of that today. >> host: have you been able to trace back your family pretty thoroughly? >> not thoroughly. i can trace my mothers side to to texas at least 1820. my father's side in the 60s may be little before that. i have deep roots in texas. either my mother's side or my father's side did not join -- the black left the south and from texas they mainly went to california, they went west. they went other places as well.
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my family stayed there. the anomaly having left texas to go to school in new hampshire at dartmouth. or to live outside of texas. mostst of my family is in texas.ef they left the little town to go somewhere they went to houston, dallas or san antonio. they didid not come to new york. they did not go to l.a. most of my family is still there. >> host: go back to your book on juneteenth page t 101, quote 1967 there was a real release that 1960 film the alamo. it was an exciting thing. it's a big deal to go to the movies in those days. it was a little town outside
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of houston now of course they've reached out and encroached upon all of us in that area. it was an exciting thing a treat to go see this movie about people we already knew about. jim bowie, travis, davy crockett. these were names that were known to us. my best friend who was a boy really was into both characters but i knew whont they were and it was almost eight mythic semite godlike person who had thisis special power, in real life he got into knife fights and that bowie knife became famous because of that. we go to see the film it's very, very heroic betrayal of the alamo as you would have
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expected. there is nothing in there that surprised me there is a character betrayed in a way that made uncomfortable. but for the most part it was a heroic presentation of battle make this last glorious stand against the mexicans. now, later on in the teenage years probably when i was in college and i read more about all of this i came to understand texans had reasons to fight for their independence. but, as i mentioned before one was to protect their slaveholders, protect texas and make it as a m slaveholders
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republic. how am i supposed to deal with this? i am african-american my ancestors were enslaved in texas. how do i keep this heroic understanding about the alamo whenun i realize one of the things they wereth fighting for was to keep my people in bondage. as it appears i enjoyed the movie except the part about the enslaved person. it had a nice theme song and lawrence harvey was really cute. but later on i began to see the problem. in the book i talk a little bit about that. how to reconcile this and how can you possibly do that? >> host: good afternoon and welcome to book tv on cspan2.
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independence day 2021 this is our monthly program in depth or we invite one author to come on and talk about her or his book. this month is harvard professor pulitzer, prize-winning author annette gordon reed. she began her writing career in 1997 came out in 2008 that when the pulitzer and the national book award, most blessed of the patriarchs came in 2016 on juneteenth came out this year end annette gordon reed had also co-authored a book vernon jordan, the late vernon which came out in 2001. she has edited race on trial, law and justice in american
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history. this is an interactive program. your voices are very important. we want to hear from you, here's your chance to talk to professor gordon greenee agenda reed. (202)748-8200 if you live in the east and central time zones. 748-8201 for those in the mountain pacific time zone. you can also send in a text if that is easier for you. if you do please include your first name and city. 202748, 8903. now, you can also contact us via social media, facebook, twitter. justst remember @booktv is our twitter handle. you can find all of those and you can make a comment that way too. we will scroll through those numbers again. in case youou did not get a chance to write them down or hearar them, we will give you another chance to do that.
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annette gordon reed it was in 2008 that you won the national book award. i happen to be there at that presentation that night. i remember you walked by me and you looked a littlemb bit stunned at what was happening when he won that night. they want to play a little bit of your acceptance speech. >> i have to think first two people who are not here. my mother and father were responsible for everything that i am that is good. and gave me a sense of how important learning was. the black people in this country are on. that's what i'm trying to my scholarship and what i tried to do with this book. i hope they're looking at me and i know they be very, very proud of this moment. >> annette gordon reed who are your parents?
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>> my father's alpha gordon seen at my mother was betty jean gordon. they were texans as i mentioned before they grew up in texas and segregated society. father would into the army as an 18-year-old after he graduated fromua high school to help his sisters rather than go to school. help his younger sisters as mother had died when he was 11. his father wasn't invalid so he was a career army person for a time and then came out had a series of businesses when i was growing up. my mother was a high school english teacher she went to college in the graduate school, they have known each other my mother had gone away for a
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period of time but came back was my childhood sweetheart but got married. i was about six months old they moved to texas and that was the town i write about on juneteenth. >> said your mother was a high school teacher the effects of integration on schoolchildren black and white integration had on black teachers. talking in the book i believe my parents were idealistic when they sent me too anderson school prayer this is the mid 60s. black people were on the move in away and the voting rights act. i think they were sending me
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too integrative school as part of an advance in civil rights. now later on they get dissolution to some degree talk about politics a lot not just in our town but all over the south. seems to be black joining rate integration of the kids but not integration to my teachers spread acrossrs the south many were taken out of the classroom after integration. what are my mother remained in the classroom, loved teaching and stayed there.
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she gone to college to teach black students. she loved white students and she loved black students. one of the things i heard from her former students is how she much to meant to them white and black people. but she was a part of that generation saw themselves ins the vanguard phase people used in that day was up lift the race. to prepare black students for what they're going to be facing in a segregated society. to make things better for black people. when there is integration she was a number of friends when she worked at high school they
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were wonderful friendship and they grew out of it. it's known as a part of a group of black men and women who had this mission for people who were imperiled in some sort of way. now it did not have to resort to anything other than fill in their individual potential which they did. there is no notion with a group of people they had to do. june 19, 1865. certainly formally. she became a little disillusioned aboutrm this. the terms upon which this was carried out. >> one. >> why did you get a law
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degree from harvard practice being a lawyer? >> i got a law degree for couple of reasons. i think my experience integrating the schools of our town gave me an earlyw. look at law. because i understood this is something that had been made part of this, i wanted to be a writer for most of my life. for all of my life really. i thought law was the most practical thing for me too do. my experiences integrating schools that many focus on law and the practicality of it. and plus my father admired
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lawyers. he was growing up he would've been a lawyer. i think it was probably part of it. i went to harvard is because it was harvard. i knew lots of people sought government officials, harvard is a place to public service in academia. i practice three here's at the wall street law firm.y then i was to the small city agency called the board of corrections part is the oversight agency to the department of corrections,me the
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agency with the jail. my job or our job was to write minimum standards for the jail. to make sure those were followed. they had that, as a tiny agency that had a huge mandate and no money to carry it out. but we did the best we could do. i practice for about seven years. either in private practice or government practice as well. >> your known as a historian and a history professor. did you meet the new york supreme court adjusted at harvard law school? >> yes, i did, i did. robert reed, my husband, we met at the black law students association picnic. he is a good-looking guy guy. we were in the same storm
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harvard is a big law school the firstst year at section divided up into four sections. we were in the smaller section and everything pushing us to be together. we used to fit in the lobby of our storm and watch tv and other tv shows after he stopped studying. we got married, we got t engaged my second year in law school. we got married the day after graduation. right there at the harvard law school campus. >> robert reed is a justice of the supreme court. we be teaching this person this fall and harvard? >> yes i will be back. this year in the fall, we are open for business were going to get back into things i'm
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very excited about that. went to be teaching american legal history in thein fall. i am sharing the entry level hiring committee again. i will have that class just one class for the fall. then the spring time i'll be teaching a class, constitutional law and empire. i'll be teaching legal profession in the spring. >> peter is co-author on the most blessed of the patriarchs book. i have taken enough of your time. let's hear from her callers, you are first up with annette gordon reed. >> thank you so much for taking my call. professor reed i've been very fascinated, it has been wonderful. what do we know about the relationship? obviously he owned her, was
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there love there? she was handy? he's happy to be hisis companio. i understand he did promise his wife he would not remarry. but what do we know about the interpersonal, as much as we can know about that? >> thank you jim. >> guest: we don't know anything specific about the nature of this connection. people say they could only be the rate because as you mentioned he owned her. sally hemmings grandchildren, a couple great-grandchildren i'm trying to get the precise number here rights, talked about how jefferson felt about her. that hee loved her, mr. jefferson loved her dearly they said. they did not talk about how
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she felt about him. and once she comes back to the united states, this is something that started in a place were sally hemmings and brother james could have taken their freedom there. and before she thanks about doing that but jefferson promises her she comes back and jefferson promises when they come back sure live a good life in monticello and any children they had to be freed when they are 21. she comes back with him. obviously she trusted him to carry it out. but she is 16 years old. , a 16-year-old in the eighth century is not the same as we think of today. they were still people who were young and impressionable. she comes back with himim on that in fact what he said he
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was going to do he did. but we don't know anything, the most that i said was this is all in his power, right? once he comes back to virginia he's still in his power. he would maintain a purely sexual interest in her for 38 years. that would not be the first thought you would have in your mind about the way people act in the circumstances. but we don't know. we don't have her words about him. we don't have his words about her. we just have as i said a great-granddaughter talking about the two of them. in talking only about him. i mention this that when he dies she keeps items from him that belonged to him and give them tos her children.
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as an heirloom. i don't know what that means. i mention it because it is the only action we know besides coming back to him that we know about her relationship to him. this is a mystery. this is something that is best plumbed in novels which it has been. that a novel about sally hemmings in 1958. for historians until we find material or other things were not going to know much about it than that. >> host: is in bryan, texas good afternoon. >> caller: hello. i was going to ask another question but i had heard sally hemmings was a half-sister of jefferson's wife. did you address that at all? that i will ask my question.
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>> host: going to ask your second question sir. >> caller: okay, my hometown is also your hometown, conway. i am 84. i discovered i must've gotten some racism by osmosis. when i discovered a beautiful white woman when i was 19 or 20 it was a big shock to me that was even possible. that is my first big example of racism. working to get rid of my prejudice ever since freedom activists of the 60s. my classmate of doctor king. here is my question, who was always a room or a black was burned on the courthouse steps in 32. do you know anything about the?
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>> and conway texas? >> caller: it was a hotbed of violent racism. it went alright let's hear from annette, gordon reed sally hemmings half-sister. his implicit racism and the courthouse. >> host: bellingham it was the daughter of john wells was also the father of martha wells jefferson, so sally hemmings was jefferson's wife. that is the case. his implicit bias is understandable if you grew up in that place. it was a town that has a very, very tough racial history. there was a man burned at the stake on the courthouse steps. it was reported in the newspaper, it was a person who
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is accused of doing something to a white woman in the woods. ed was lynched essentially. i talk about this in the book, there are instances of racial bias in the town some of my relatives would not spend the night in conway. it was because of the racial path. this story can be told about other towns. i am not making excuses for my hometown, but this story can be told in other places. earning at the stake is medieval, right? it had a very, very tough history. >> lisa in cicero indiana hi lisa. >> caller: at mr. reed i am so
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impressed with your entire presentation that's very much-needed as a result of what you have witnessed in liyour lifetime. my question as a successful black single-parent i became victimized by predators after 17 years i finished paying for my home. which led me too be homeless and i have a healthy history of success. my question to you is, i know this is a a world wide scam i thought i was alone at work ifirst. the agency i'm going to for help since the judge ruled my attorney misrepresented me and awarded forgers to take my home, forging my signature and let them get away with that. >> hey lisa i apologize for getting a little off topic
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here. i'm sorry for your situation what exactly didan you and to ask annette gordon reed? >> because of her experiences, wondering if she could guide me to the proper agency or resource? see what i think we've got your point. yemeni words for her annette gordon reed? >> guest: no, other that i make sorry for her. there have to be the bar association in your area you could connect to some people in that situation. if whatt you are saying is true it sounds like a miscarriage of justice. i would contact a lawyer is the best answer i could give. sue and margaret in arkansas please go ahead with ear, historian annette gordon reed. >> thank you so much for being on the program. thank you so much y for having professor gordon reed.
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i strongly believe the desire to protect the slavery is one of the reasons we have the declaration of independence. and just trying to read more deeply into what really happened in our history, i have come to believe that. so today as the fourth of july i have a really mixed feelings. i'm trying to digest at the beginning of our country the tremendous desire to protect the slaveholders and the institution of slavery, i am bothered by that so much. how should i regard this? i was influenced learning about the james somerset case.
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and other things, the times, the 1770s what was happening here t happening here in north america. >> host: margaret gordon reed? >> guest: the people who wanted to protect slavery i think looking at the constitution and that ratification of the constitution lays this out much more clearly. youol see south carolina and southern states who are adamant about coming to an arrangement that protect the institution of slavery. the american revolution really get started in boston and new england. there were certainly people interested in perfecting slavery they're basically trying at first to get a change in their relations, the
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situation and great britain. great britain was not just picking on the 13 colonies it was in the process of reforming the empire but in the caribbean and other places they have holdings. they are the ones that said we want to go. people in the caribbean don't do it they've got slavery down there but they also have a majority of black people in the caribbean. that is the reason they didha not want to go out for they were mixed motives. i don't think it was just about slavery. somerset did not apply. some are set, slavery is so erroneous you have to have positive law and order to justify it. the colonies have positive law. they were not doing this for common law they have their statutes, their codes. so jefferson does not talk aboutrs somerset. it does not enter into any of
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his papers. they are not sitting around worried about that particular pace the people who wanted to protect slavery but also those who were interested and thelaining about all changes the empire over all. >> will the beer course on american law history. >> will definitely talk about this. we have a textn from scott in arkansas, what is your interpretation of the current acrimony over critical race theory is someone who has used lmany different varieties of critical theory and graduate school from feminist theory to queer theory. i am shocked this analytical lens became political red meat to the republican base. >> it is perplexing.
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critical race theory was something one of my classmates, and the same section with my husband as a matter fact. the late derek bell was a harvard professor they were the proponents of it this is a law school class. ithese are taught to law schoo. i was not surprised the thought that critical race theory caught in k-12. it's is about law and how despite changes, race is embedded in the legal system. the critical race theory is about trying to unpack that to force those issues. i think people have done is
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made any talk about critical race theory. critical race theorists all talk about race. but notot all people who talk about race are critical race theorists. i think most of the people talkings. about race to the extent they are, k-12 are not doingot theory. i am not being a disingenuous. i don't think that is what is going on. i think there is a concern talking about topics from what i have read and what people have said they feel bad. you talk about slavery you note the vast majority of slaveholders were white in the united states. africans had slaves to
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citizens and we have had the time north america went to say that. but to sate the you can.talk about those things because it will make white student feel bad means you cannot talk about history. they are not responsible. no one should be teaching them that they did these things. but you have to say the stuff happened but how do you talk about say for example the republic of texas without reading the constitution? if you read the constitution it's going to talk about race and there will be wgh white kids who might feel, how did my great, great grandfather if they were texans how did they respond to this? they responded by saying yes it was great.
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i feel bad about it. but that is life. life is not feeling good about yourself all the time. and it is also an opportunity to learn to say look, those people had ideas of which i disagreean pretty want to do better, i want to do different things. you are not a hostage to all of that. i am as perplexed as you are about it. other than a real concern about erring people do not want to admit things happen to african-american people that were unfair. but i am not saying we should not talk about that either. so, i am as surprised by it as youha are.
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there will be pushed back against on some of this legislation. some of it could be declared unconstitutional. teachers are a pretty maverick a bunch. if my mother and her friends are an example. they will find a way to talk about the truth. is it a true third jim crow laws? when i was a kid sit in the balcony. if we went to the doctor's office there is a separate waiting list. there were people alive this actually happened. there's a reason hiding it if people are ashamed of it that's a good response. because when you say were not going to do this anymore, we are not held hostage to people did in the past pretty want to do something better we want to be better. still when you're watching book tv on cspan2 monthly in-depth program.
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one author, two hours. this month is harvard professor pulitzer prize-winning historian annette gordon reed. >> from san diego sends an e-mail to you, professor. the one time we visited in texas we notice the texas state flag is flown on staffs amount above the american flag. is there eight mythology in texas that is larger than other states? i >> guest: i would say separate this is an interesting thing. when i was growing up i recall being the confederate flag i was learned as the confederate flag actually, only occasionally. the last time i was in texas i meet not the very last time in the past few years i was in texas i was going around the country writing around and visiting. i sought more confederate flags on that trip than i have
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probably seen in my entire childhood growing up in texas. hsomething has happened where the confederate identity and it means something different now it is attached to current political things. maybe that is what it is. when i was growing up it was all about taxes. but the loyalty, the fixation was on texas as a state. chauvinism about texas as a state their white texans and black texans. someone was asking me the other day a person from another state who told me they celebrate emancipation day on a different day, january 1. and there are people in virginia who do something in april.
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they said why is it with texas how did texas and manage to have their day of celebrating emancipation become a federal holiday? it is because of the tenacity and chauvinism i think of black texans who kept celebrating this holiday from 1866 up until today. and then when they left texas they would go to other states and say yes there is this holiday we should celebrate too . i don't know south carolinians and other people go p places insist that people celebrate holidays that they celebrated back in south carolina, florida or other places. guess this mythology about texas there isno no question when i was growing up who were raised to think we were special people. because we were from texas. i think many black people took that seriously in many white people taken that seriously.
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i don't think it iss any coincidence that we end up with juneteenth as a holiday because black texans kept this alive and were very insistent that this meant something. obviously it doesn't mean something to the country as a whole. my hope is juneteenth will be tan umbrella holiday for the celebration of the emancipation and other places as well. i think you are right. there is a texasuv chauvinism that shows itself pretty clearly. we went to linda in san francisco you were on with annette gordon reed, thanks for holding. >> thank you thank you. it is a great program c-span. doctor reed, you are in american treasure that is all i have to say. you mentioned earlier, you are the surprise of the passage of juneteenth as a federal holiday. i wanted to know, do you think this was maybe a way to
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appease black people to maybe quiet the narrative about reparations were the asian hate crime bill that was passed unanimously and very quickly? i just want to know what to think about that? i hear that on social media lots. >> all right linda thank you. >> if people think that, that is a very naïve thought. the passage of the federal holiday is an important thing. juneteenth is important symbolically, we live by symbols. insymbols are not unimportant. voting rights, hate crimes, those are existential questions . people might have thought that but it would be a very naïve thought. i just can't see any way people would say we got
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juneteenth now we don't have to vote, no. i will not underestimate people's sense of how they can get over on other people. it's notot going to work. if that is the hope that was a naïve hope. i think the juneteenth holiday almost became holiday last year. there was a one senator who had been blocking it. this time he decided to let it go. when i said i was surprised i thought it might become a federal holiday. i thought it would be later in the year. i was taken aback. i was going along on my virtual house book to her. senate voted and overseas. his back and did this. the surprise of the speed it was going along saying one day this might become a federal holiday and later in the
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year. just like that it comes tot fruition. >> host: it was serendipitous your book came out right before that too? >> guest: yes, yes when i was working on my book back of the pandemic in new york city i was not, and in the holiday thing was out there. it was certainly not a primary motivation for writing the book or that i should enforce that it anyway. was goodut timing. >> jackie in gary, indiana texas to you. could you talk about how your jefferson and hemmings research has received more acceptance since its first publication and why the writing of history has to be tested and rewritten? >> well, my first book came out in 1997 about thomas jefferson and sallymm hemming. it was about historic profession and the way certain
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people who were writing about jefferson primarily handled this particular story. that was my real interest to say look, i was not interested in proving this in one way or another. but one thing i did know was the historians have been treating medicine and hemmings recollection on the recollection of other people in an unfairth way. that's what my first book was really about. it came out in 1998 corroborated what i was saying. and so that led to general acceptance of the story. most of it went on to other things thinking about the gender aspect of it. thinking other aspects of monticello. in the handling of talking
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about slavery. people branch out to other kinds of things about writing history differently. something i've said before. people talk about revision history of sure people heardha that phrase this is just a revision of history. usually said with the majority of the vision but all historians, good historians are revising things. i'm telling the same story over and over again. or ready at night youwh can skip over a line and they say wait a minute go back to that part they recognize that. they are thinking something different than what historians are doing. for costly finding new informationew, finding new information and we ask different questions about thingsgs. if you are writing about the republic of texas and if you don't care about a question of race, for many people people would have written about that
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and not fixated on the provisions in the constitution that explicitlyve promote slavery and protect it. or the provision the african-americans can't immigrate there. free black people can't and they can't to be citizens. if you don't care about those topics and for most of history people writing about the texas republic would not dwell on that. they would not think about it. i amny frantic to think about any graduate student or young person lost 20 -- 30 years or more than that wanted to write about the republic of texas. they understand those provisions shape the society they can just say black people count straight or it doesn't matter. they're going to fixate and talk about the things that deal with whites.
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those words are in the document. now may be inom the future there will be some other things. people won't be interested in. that. they arere constantly evolving. the writing of history is constantly evolving as i said one, finding information and to, to ask different questions. very often those questions go out the things taking place today. you think to ask that. what does it mean to say people ofsc african descent cannot be citizens? how does that shape a culture? what would it be likeli even after slavery is over, how do you get rid of that racial hierarchy that's put in place by those words? it explains the lynching, burning somebody on the
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courthouse square. or other kinds of lynching. b you see the connection between things that are happening today if you are expansive in understanding about the path. so we are constantly looking ffor those things that help you explain the foundation of society, the origins of the society. that is why history has to keep changing. >> how about 30 minutes left in her conversations with professor annette gordon reed if you like to dial in 202 is the area code 748-8200 for those in east and central time zones. 202-74-8801 in mountain pacific time zone and if you want to send a text (202)748-8903. please include your first name and youran city if you do send that text. our next call is from robin and marilyn, hi robin.
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>> caller: hello doctor gordon reed. why do you think the leaders of the confederacy did not take more seriously the economic failure of the republic of texas as a place with essentially only cotton as a crop? >> caller: one crop economy. >> and some nations overseas who were reluctant to trade with because they were explicitlybl a slave holders are public. the united states constitution tried to hide slavery talking about personal health and service. the texas constitution is explicit about all of b this. the plan, the available evidence indicates there always people who wanted texas to become a part of the united
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states. the plant was to leave mexico and hoped for annexation by the united states and eventually statehood. for the people who want to just the republic that is one group. the people who thought this was going to become a part of the united states even out protections from mexico. that was the plan all along. so it may not have been surprising for them. the ultimate goal was something else and that was to be statehood. >> roberto's calling in from houston, texas. >> caller: i am a retired history teacher here in texas. i've two points to make doctor gordon reed. one, you kind of invaded the issue.
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but critical race theory is going to be coming up this month in state legislature. they want to forbid it. i think you should put on your joan of arc armor and come to austin and speak about the issue. here would be the stumbling block and you kind of glossed over it which i hope you give a thought too. and i as a history teacher have it too. when is it appropriate to bring up these issues, the true history. we have a book that states forget the alamo. i come up with the true history. you keep mentioning the state constitution and this constitution and that. it is a much too high a level for gradeschool kids to be reading. to get practical i wish he would give it more thought. i do not want you to say now but i do think it's a crucial
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question that someone from the republican state would want to hear from you. >> host: okay roberto i think we got the point annette gordon reed. >> guest: okay, when is it appropriate, age-appropriate to talk about race and history? myra kelman is a writer who wrote a book about jefferson a biography of jefferson for people who were five -- seven years old. she talks about slavery and sallyt hemming. she does it in a way that is a brilliant and completely age-appropriate. i don't see why you could not talk or raise the question about the texas republic and younger grades.
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not reading the constitution but there are ways to write anything. i have seen really good books for young people on the book i'm talking about now, certainly through elementary school, middle school, natalie hohas done a wonderful youth biography of thomas jefferson that talks about all of this stuff. it's an age-appropriatete way. i think there is a way to do it. as for coming doubt there to talk about all this, i think there are plenty of people in texas who can hold down the fort. : : that matter. i do know that people have :tt you can't talk about the truth. i am of the mind that kids are more understanding than we think
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weav are and i have seen so many examples writing about these issues about race and slavery in children's books. i think it's not the case as before in a sensitive and in a reasonable way for young kids. >> another text for you, no city or name. is renaming ami school of jefferson middle school, like so many in the u.s., jefferson -- hemmings middle school a solutions that prompts the conversation rathern- than rippg away history? >> autopsy the reason to call jefferson -- because of their connection -- either a particular community or their
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contribution to the nation. that's right jefferson was named after jefferson. i don't see any purpose -- i wouldn't say jefferson hemmings school saw -- solved the issue with that. i don't haves' a problem that jefferson school so long as people talk about all aspects of jefferson's life because he's a person who had such an effect on so many aspects of american history that it hard to move him to the side in a way so i am four, in that situation if you name it, to keep the name if you want. on the other hand, jefferson said the earth belongs to the living and every generation ofas people has a life if you want to rename your school for somebody today doing something you think represents your generation, your
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place better he would probably say, and i would say as well do that. i wouldn't see it as imperative renaming harvard versus renaming but jefferson hemmings i wouldn't be opposed to it but i don't think it solves the problem is to what people were concerned about as a slave owner katie sacramento question is your thoughts on removal of statues of prominent confederates prominent confederate see any reason why there should be statutes of confederate in public places in america not just raising tried
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to destroy the mind, battlefield public i think it's an instant reconciliation can't make that killed the values of which are announced and the cornerstone speech of alexander stevenson about president that says essentially, it says that africans were meant to be cornerstone in their society, there's nothing we could get
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from them wee can't get better without all the baggage there so confederates with the removal of the statute we continue to learn about them history from statues or buildings that are named, will always talk about robert e lee jefferson davis and what happened from their secession from the union and the construction of the will talk about these things statute so i would be full stature, private property cemeteries and battlefield across the river from d.c. highway until about a year ago surprise me but to
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reconcile a country that had been torn apart going too far with that thinking about sensibilities of one part of the summary african-americans enslaved in the confederacy and unionists, who remained loyal to the american nation and we talked about johnson, that was good about believed and. >> back to her and she had a follow-up, who is your next plant i suggest clara martin for lucy stone abolitionist. >> i have a couple of projects i had to interrupt to do
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juneteenth here but i ended up pushing aside for the moment during a second volume of the hemmings family story taking that from charlottesville after guys in 1826 taking civil war and dropping them off at the beginning of the 20th century, first couple of decades, the great war because things changed after that. world war i, modern world begins in the world that they were part of, cannot hear it just matter to me anymore, maybe mentioned osome people who continue on but basically ending so the hemmings family story and i am finishing the jefferson reader on race that i have been preparing for a
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while and i want to knock this out pretty quickly. i basically have collected all writings on race. this project is in the state of connecticut looking at his memorandum, his letters, i all of his discussions and comments about race and commentary so that is whatat i am working on w and that's probably, and my editor has been after me for a while to do a book about texas, a big book about texas. this take a career for me to do all three of these things so those are the next things down the pipe. >> laurel, new york. john, you are on the air.
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john,, before we begin from attorneys on the volume of your tv or otherwise beget an echo. >> yes. >> go ahead. he's gone, evelyn in philadelphia. you're on the air. >> hello? >> hi, evelyn. >> i have a question, to comments. my husband and i have been doing research all of our life and my husband, his third great grandfather was killed and that made national attention the articles of new york times. but my concern is, we are both in our 80s and have a story to tell angry tell her every chance we get but i found through dna testing that my father was married a second time in my
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mother for a third time and he was in pittsburgh and got involved the policing system. my father was born in 1894 and he was jailed for three months i've been doing research on that. a very quick system they talk about the 13th amendment and how that abolished slavery and it did not because of that system, people put back into bondage treated worse than slavery time so could you speak on the termsms of why do we alws say yes, 13th amendment got rid of slavery butut it did not because it existed in the system, could you respond to that, please? and i have all of the books right here juneteenth, easy-to-read, not that many pages and thank you for that.
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>> could you tell us a little bit about your husband and you. >> we've been married 65 years, we were veryar close to our grandparents but we were kids during the, we can ask questions. my i would say grandmom, were you a slave? she said no, i was not a slave. i used to have to wash a white woman's feet and i said to my grandma, you had to wash the white woman's feet? i didn't have the wherewithal to ask her ladies name that i found out yout need for the research, as i i said we travel all over e world and do research and travel giving away my story, i had a nephew that had aad dna test and this young lady reached out to him and they communicated back and forth so finally she said i'm looking for my grandfather she said oh yeah, she asked and he said you need to talk, that's
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what she does so is it okay? i said yeah, sure. and we talked to finally she spoke looking for my grandfather so i said let me get my pen and paper and said i'll e-mail it to you so she did and my husband was on the computer and he's had, he knew i was sitting down and i found out this young lady, her grandfather is my father and that is the start of doing research. my father wasn't allowed to read or write so we got stories to tell and we're trying to get our program together paperwork together so we can pass on to future generations so that's what we do.
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then we just do as someone says we're looking for so-and-so, doing some research for a lady, they are very prominent in this area and i i found out i've nevr done research by found a slave related to someone with a narrative. >> all right, evelyn, thank you for that background. appreciate that. >> it's interesting, it is true, the 13th amendment and the leasing system and they tried to enact laws as closely back to slavery as possible in the aftermath of the civil war in the south, i think the principal difference is -- well, the difference is it allows people
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to be worked at the will of others and even prisons now but people aren't sold, one of the things people celebrated juneteenth, one of the things important to them was the end of the legal ability or their spouses or brothers and sisters away from one another, slavery was a system of working without pay cattle meant they died and had children separated amongst these children in these places and people would be separated from families and state sales, sales for money or whatever, that kind of action was
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traumatized to enslaved people and after the end of slavery, front of the first things people do besides freedmen's bureau and having their marriage to look for relative and go around and try to find my m mother, my kid, my sister, myer brother. i really do think juneteenth has become it's a family holiday, people come together, they gather together and we can go through airports in the summer and see black people walking around with the teachers on the reunion, this notion of gathering people together and it goes out with trauma and the desire to keep people together for hundreds of years and people
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could be separated and it's never to be seen again in the narrative she was talking about and it's never to be seen again. just imagine that, we lose relatives to death but not somebody coming in and say we need money so your three children, we are going to sell them to louisiana or whatever, that kind of thing left a mark and people have been trying to recruit from that. >> gordon greeted her husband, doctor joe pierce are prominent retiredd couple in san antonio, i've met them several times at the book festival in austin that missus pierce e-mailed me separate the, abruptly canceling
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the speech on the alamo, i don't know if you are familiar with that book texas is trying to keep them from competing, it's crazy and related to censorship. i know we touched on it a minute ago but i wanted to acknowledge the e-mail. >> i heard about that situation, i think when you draw attention to things, this would probably make people go out and read the book even more, people don't like to have ideas kept from them but that is an unfortunate situation from the things i've read about. i haven't read the book get that should be on my nightstand next. >> will you be on the book
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festivals circuit this fall? >> i think so, i am supposed to be on the book festivals this fall. >> neville -- >> i'm hoping they will be w abe to -- i'm hoping to be there in person. virtual things are nice but it's nice to be out and meet people, you know what the atmospheres are like. >> yes texas is in person this year. neville in cleveland, ohio. go ahead. >> my question for court intrigue is related to hemmings. we all know the name hemmings and we know the story, what i miss is an image, a depiction. you see from time to time
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descriptions that she was white and had long straight hair down her back but she was three-quarter european and a quarter african but i don't see many sketches, i don't see many images, i don't see many pictures of hemmings, can you say something about that for me please? >> we don't have any depictions of her. people have had imagined ideas of what shehe looked like and reproductions of her but we don't have any pictures, there is nothing to go on. we don't even have -- will have images of jefferson's wife, i think there may be a couple of silhouettes of her but strangely enough, the portraits were
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destroyed, her father's home was destroyed by fire but it's interesting she apparently didn't have a portrait as a married woman. people p about class would have done that so we don't know, this is sort of an odd thing, these twoor sisters completely differt places in the hierarchy, neither of them do we have any visual images of and you would expect to have one martha jefferson, maybe not sally hemmings, the first images of the family our grandchildren that we have but we don't have portraits martha or sally. >> missus text from and page, a high school social studies teacher at hamilton high school
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and hamilton math. doctor reed, my template calling and i have assigned on juneteenth as of summer reading atonement for our students in making a decision regarding this year's assigned book. we had conversations with students, mostly white involved with the local human rights committee, a few students expressed to us they felt strongly the book was about race, gender or identity, it could only be assigned fromth authors who identify as part of the community they write about. as ae teacher i respect and understand whether students are coming from but i disagree, in part with their argument. i want to explore the argument for the summer in monarch your thoughts on this. a lot to digest their. >> the idea is the students only want books by people who write about a community from which they come from, they can't be
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writing about black people if they are white. >> i think that's what they'll think. >> these arere young people, i don't agree with that. some of the best books about slavery for example, slavery racially based slavery in the u.s. had been by white authors but i understand their desire to put personal abuse, people writing about personal issues are part of the community, juneteenth is a history book but it's a memoir as well and to talk about growing up as a black person in texas or texts in general i could understand or morere personal why they would want the individual be in the community but talking about straight history, white authors write about black people, i
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mentioned a book on frederick douglass, i write about thomas jefferson but the memoir part is more personal, i understand why they would have that view. one thing, doctor gordon reed, i am not a doctor, fortunately in history even though i am a jurist author, i do think backward. i wrote my book and then going to the department so i am just professor gordon reed or annette, depending on how well you know me. [laughter] >> the next call is martha in maine. go ahead. >> hi, peter. i missed part of the program so i hope i'm not repeating the question from someone else professor gordon reed, i am a
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retired maryland public school teacher and i am very upset about the controversy you 1619 project16 and the organization offering $5000 to underpaid schoolteachers to teach, whatever that's supposed to be.. i am quite upset about and i would like her knowledge or opinion. >> thank you, martha. >> i know it's a controversial subject for people. i don't know anything about that program or what it is she's referring to, i think it is for discussion. 1619 project, from what i have
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read is a number of essays, it's not just one essay. the lead essay is the one that caused problems for a number of people that other people thought was problematic for one reason orma another, i think it shoulde discussed and i think there are other parts that i think would be illuminating for students and it could be useful if there are opposing views that could be discussed as well. i don't think, as we were talking before about forget the alamo and other instances, i don't think censoring things or stopping things from being discussed is the way to go. if it's out there it's in the public eye, students at an appropriate age should be made aware of those kinds of things classic. at the teachers have areas that are problematic, you can raise that and bring opposing views,
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it's much better to discuss things, that's the bottom line i have on this. >> we are going to close with this text. hi annette, remember me? davidan hoover 1977, i just text mark evans to say he went on. question, have you seen your s neural on the square what did you say? love your work. >> that's amazing, david. we were very good friends. i have learned there going to name a school after me and my hometown which shows you some of the changes taking place in that town over the years. it will work. met 30 seconds left, give us the
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history of this mural. what happened text. >> some admirers and my mother friend got a mural up in my hometown andwn put it me as wel. i went down to the unveiling of the bus, i wasn't there for the mural but it's wonderful. i wish my parents were there to see it. >> which school will be named after you? >> it's an elementary school opening in august 2022. >> annette gordon reed, we often ask authors who are on their favorite book. annette sent us this book u stre push hg wells experiment autobiography, octavia beutler, a prince and a single manned by christopher currently reading about the hidden history of women but slavery revolts by doctor the cruelty by adam in the papers of thomas jefferson, another book she is apparently
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reading. when it has been our guest here on bookkeeping for the past two hours. very much appreciate your time. >> thank you for inviting me. >> weekend on c-span2 bringing the best in american history in nonfiction books. saturday on american history stevie 2:00 p.m. eastern on the presidency, a discussion on the results of c-span's for historian survey presidential leadership. historians richard smith and amity slaves, survey ranked presidents progress to worst in ten different categories and 8:00 p.m. eastern on lectures in history, turn-of-the-century women journalists such as nelly by dorothy, facing societal pressures to balance femininity and a career in journalism. i was state university professor tracy talking about the
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challenges these pioneering women overcame. ♪♪ tv features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. sunday starting at 8:00 a.m. eastern hear from authors attending freedom fast in rapid city south dakota including new hampshire based author and attorney mccarrick on her short stories, speeches in her book the ecstatic. 9:45 p.m., national review columnist john in his book our broken elections in which he argues the covid-19 pandemic to change the election system and make it more vulnerable to fraud. 3:05 p.m., economic historian with her book battery human onyx which look at a new kind of economics focusing on science and a better understanding of human action and 4:35 p.m. economist george talking about future dominance of artificial
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intelligence in his book gaming a.i. 10:00 p.m. eastern on "afterwards", conservative broadcaster and journalist ben shapiro discussing his new book the authoritarian moment in which he argues the progressive left is pushing authoritarian agenda in america interviewed by national syndicated radio talkshow host eric. watch american history and book tv every weekend on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or visit c-span.org. ♪♪ >> sunday c-span series january 6, views from the house continues. three members of congress share stories of what they saw, heard and experienced that day including democrat dean phillips of minnesota. >> at that very moment when the capitol police officer announced we should take cover, i stood up
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at the back of the gallery at the second level representative from arizona was as honest electors and at that moment i simply shouted out at the top of my mom this is because of you, i screamed. >> this is because of you! and i think i was representing four years of angst and anxiety and anger, many of us saw this coming from a mile away, i think i represented probably millions of americans who felt the same way at that moment. the entire country, including myself recognized the fragility about democracy. i have great appreciation for the traditions and progress and the quorum. i do not like to violated but i do not regret it because it was what i was feeling and it was four years of pent up anxiety
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about what was transpiring right in front of our eyes. >> will hear from democrat jamie roston of maryland and republican brian patrick of pennsylvania. january 6, views from the house sunday night 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span.org or listen on the c-span radio app. ♪♪ >> weekend on c-span2 intellectual arrays have american history tv documenting american stories some base. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> you think it's just the community center? no, it way more than about. >> comcast partnering with 1000 community centers to create wi-fi enabled some students from low income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. >> comcast along with these television companies support
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macron emmanuel as a public service. now on book tvs "afterwards" program, former new york police department commissioner bill discussing his leadership in law enforcement over three decades in office response on policing in america today interviewed by charles ramsey, former philadelphia police commission and former chief of the d.c. metropolitan police department. >> how are you? >> i'm good, but to be talking with you. >> same here, let me start by saying i read your book thorley enjoyed it. it was a very good read so i am soad glad you wrote it but i do have our first question, the book chronicles your entire career which obviously was a tremendous career you've had for five decades but you chose to start

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