community. and c-span's competition. a grand prize of $5,000. entries will begin to be received wednesday, september 8th. for competition rules, tips and more information how to get started, visit our website at student cam.org. c-span shop.org is c-span's on-line store. there's a collection of c-span products, browse to see what's new. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations and you have time to order the congressional directory for the biden administration. go to c-span shop.org. >> well, good afternoon, everyone, i'm donna martinez, welcome once again to coming to you live from midtown raleigh, north carolina. we've got a fascinating discussion scheduled for you

today. i'm glad so many of you are here along for this. the leftist notice that it dates to 1619 not 1776 has proven quite popular in media, culture and education and now the recent hiring of new york times reporter nicole hannah jones by unc chappell journalism school has swept into the spotlight. the discussion who we are as americans, what our country represents, the principles on which our country was founded and of course, the role of the faculty and boards of trustees when it comes to the issue of hiring people and tenure. so we've got a great panel for you today and hoping to clear up the misconceptions for you and also some perspective to the very important debate going on in our country. joining me today is the ceo of the john locke foundation. she's been with us several times before and i know that many of you have had the

opportunity to meet with her across north carolina. amy cook is with us today. jenna robinson is the president of james d martin center for academic renewal and they are following higher education issues in north carolina. they are right in the center of this whole discussion in trying to clear up a false narrative about the hiring of nicole hannah jones. also, joining us today is matthew spalding, vice-president for washington operations at hillsdale college. he served as executive director of president biden's advisory 1776 commission. so he's going to have an update for us on that commission as well and also panelist today is peter wood, he's president of the national association of scholars, an organization that's following this issue very closely and he's also in some very compelling pieces about the issue of nicole hannah jones, her hiring, and 1619. now, panelists thank you very much.

jenna, i'd like to start with you, there's a narrative and it's a false narrative that's been created in national news stories, saying that nicole hannah jones actually was denied tenure. tell us what really happened. >> thanks, donna, so the first me or anyone found out about this was april 27th when the hudson school of journalism put out a press release saying that nicole hannah jones has been hired and did not specify whether she had tenure. and they were excited about it. the martin center and conservative wrote that this was a bad decision made by unc chapel hill and the hudson school. an organization here in north carolina later found out that the position was untenured and incorrectly assumed that it was because of conservative criticism.

and so that article, you know, went viral and national media picked up on it and said that she had tenure and it was revoked and that it's terrible. but what really happened is that when the school submitted the information about nicole hannah jones, hiring nicole hannah jones to the board of trustees way back in january, the committee that looks at tenure asked the journalism school some questions about nicole hannah jones' experience presumably, we don't have that information, it is protected, personnel information that they pushed back and said, hey we want more information before we make this decision. instead of kind of going through that the journalism school gave her a five-year contract with the possibility of future tenure, and see accepted that. by the time that the hudson

school announce that had nicole hannah jones would be joining their faculty. everyone on the school was on the same page, five year contract professor of practice and at some point in the future she would be-- she would be able to be up for tenure review. but there has been a lot of misconception. >> and that misconception really has continued, even though, jenna, i know you have written about this and about how this actually occurred. peter, i know that you've written an extensive piece about this as well. do you feel like the narrative of tenure denied is still hanging on, even though we know that's not really what happened? >> i think it is in the media because it's-- i mean, it's so sensational, tenure was revoked. that sounds -- it's very sensational story. and those articles in major media outlets were never

corrected. if you google nicole hannah jones tenure and you get to the daily mail or fox news, you're still getting the incorrect stories, they didn't print corrections. i think it's hanging out there in the national media, but everyone at unc, the faculty council and the local people and news on observer all have the story right at this time. >> peter, i know that you did extensive research on this and wrote a very interesting piece on the whole question. so what is wrong with being offered a five-year contract and accepting that? i mean, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. in other words, why such a kurfuffle over this story. >> a five year contract, it's a pretty big deal, especially it comes with a promise of a tenure review down the road if warranted.

so, there's nothing really wrong with that, but the left in academia decided that this is it-- it not just out in the mainstream press. if you go into the blogs and statements that are coming from faculty members around the country, they are really exorcized by this and there are tens of thousands of american academics who believe wrongly that she was denied tenure and actually they don't care that that's not a true story. what they really want to do is escalate this into a fight that puts such enormous pressure on the board of trustees that they'll grant her tenure right now just so it goes away. now, to me, i have no inside knowledge of what goes on with that board. it would be interesting to see how susceptible to pressure they are since the false story is that they caved in to

pressure to begin with. there was no pressure to begin with, but now there's enormous pressure and this will be a test case whether that board has the gumption to stand up against it. >> donna, can i jump in here real quick and i say this as the publisher of carolina journal and i tell people, i have an undergraduate degree in journalism and a master's degree in american history which means i care about the history of journalism. to jenna's point, the false narrative that surrounds this, number one, and then to peter's point we'll hear later, the false narrative that she has created about american history and our founding, and now we're talking about this person having a five-year-- she has a five-year contract to teach journalism and yet, she

hasn't been helpful in trying to set an honest narrative and then also, she has questionable academic works when you look at her 1619 project. all of this is troubling and to me when i look at it, when i look at what the state of journalism and the state of sort of academia, they're more concerned about a false narrative, just in a frenzy over a false narrative and nobody is curious-- i shouldn't say nobody, in group obviously is, but very few people who seem curious enough to want to get to the actual truth of this. to jenna's point, yeah, some of the local news outlets have reported the correct narrative now, but there are a whole bunch of people in academia who -- and in journalism, too, for that matter, that aren't

curious enough or want to get to the actual truth of this whole narrative that surrounds nicole hannah jones and i find that incredibly troubling. that is a fatal flaw when people whose job it is to do research, whether it's investigative journalism or in higher education, when that's actually their job and they're not willing to do it, we have a serious problem. >> now-- >> go ahead. >> i was going to make a general point here. tenure is a really old idea. my guess, this goes back to the medieval -- the development of the university, the whole idea of it, that an academic would have this tenure, this toast at

a college. the point being, it's the most important thing a college can offer and something that colleges and universities and i speak of a dean here who hires faculty, take immensely serious and it's extremely hard to get. i mean, you know, we put our professors through the paces. they have to have professional publications, be a good teacher, have good reviews, they have to have advanced the work of their dissertation into serious academic studies. so, it's an extremely serious thing. so, what struck me about this, and i appreciate, especially jen and amy and peter who looked at this particular case than i have, i've watched it from afar. what strikes me how absurd it is on its face to assume that someone comes in and immediately received tenure.

that's just not how it works. that is a misunderstanding of the nature of the university, which in my second point and here it is-- peter's got this exactly right as he does often on these things, we should see this the way it is. this signal that this is not an academic discussion at all. academics has very little to do with it actually. this is politics and this is an attempt the way these things are, and this is i think, a very public version of this. we've seen it before, to politicize something of great importance to the standing of college and universities and undermines it. the implication here is that a person should receive tenure, the greatest economic honoristic in its way, the

university can offer its protesters, there to receive that honorific to receive ideology. i think this is a case that signals there i don't know her qualifications beyond the 1619 report that that's the qualifications then i would actually let the extremely notable established historians who criticized it have the last word, but i don't know whether she's qualified or not. but to imply that one should-- anyone, whether it's her or anybody else or someone on the right, for that matter who is conservative, should receive tenure because of ideological fight they're having based in the moment in time in which they're debating, that strikes me deeply insulting the whole academic project which we,

broadly speaking here, for hundreds and thousands of years tried to develop in terms of spreading education and enlightenment. i'm befuddled by the whole thing. >> it is interesting, jenna that the board of trustees at chapel hill evidently have questions and they want to look into those things, but the implication, again, by the narrative and some of the commentary we're seeing nationally about this, the mere fact that they have questions, which i understand it is a board of trustees job, they're a governing board-- >> it's not just their job, it's their fiduciary interest as board members. it's not just a job, they mouse do that. it is their duty to uphold the very meaning of the university. >> and that's important, and thank you for clarifying that, thank you, matthew. the implication at least to my ear by some of these stories is that somehow it is a problem that they are deficient in some

way because they have questions. >> i think what's going on here is obviously there are politics in it, but the other thing that's going on is that the faculty are outraged that their opinion is not being taken as the last word. it has been accepted precedent for many years that the trustee review of tenure is a rubber stamp, that they take the recommendation of the faculty and the dean and do whatever the faculty and dean recommended. i recently sat through the faculty council at unc and most of the talk was about the process and the fact that the process is owned by the faculty. that is their expectation and they take it as a grand insult that trustees, who have no academic training, and very

little respect from the faculty, would stick their noses into this academic issue and that is the attitude of faculty members not only at unc, but many places that these appointed, non-academics should just, you know, cut checks and shut up. >> please go ahead. >> talking about, usually called chaired governing and by chaired governing, we rule and we don't want anybody else around in this, and they write the checks and faculty members get the last say. well, that goes against the legal foundations of these institutions. the board of trustees really does have the fiduciary responsibility and they exercise it.

the nicole hannah jones affair is not the first time that this has happened. and the affair in illinois a few years ago was another example of this. with uns once in a while these boards wake up and say we should look at something. when this happens, there's reflected outrage. i would say there are a couple of things here to keep in mind, that any faculty appointments, not just tenured ones, require an individuals to have a certain level of accomplishments and certain commitments to what the university is all about. and the student near the top of that. and with nicole hannah jones, she's conlated these on american history. and not just my opinions, but

one or two mistakes, it's rife with mistakes from beginning to end. it's one thing to make mistakes, we all make them, but then we have a responsibility to acknowledge the mistakes when they're pointed out. and with nicole hannah jones, some of the mistakes were pointed out before they went to the article and then pointed out again and again by two dozen american historicalions. new york times-- and to this day there are major parts of the 1619 project which are flatley false. now, there is, not a historian, but a journalist, a responsibility to tell the truth. and what we have in the record of nicole hannah jones, at least from the 1619 project, is someone who operates heedless of the facts, a strong opinion to advance regardless of what

the facts are, ongoing to confront in a reasonable way. this is not a definition of scholarship. maybe in the school of journalism if the hudson school was to be considered in this light, telling truth, the critics and responding in a reasonable way doesn't count for anything and might want to change their name and no longer a school of journalism, they're a school of opinion and that's what we get. now, nicole hannah jones brings other things besides the 1619 project to the table. she won the mccarthur award two years ago. she won the pulitzer prize last year because of other lesser awards in the field of journalism. and she was known for writing several fairly lengthy articles in the new york times and other places. whether any of that has been subjected to scrutiny, i don't know. if it's as of dubious quality

as the 1619 project, one has to question the other awards as well. does someone get offered a position based on awards and ribbons and scholarship? no. she has to have proven scholarship so i fault the trustees at the university of north carolina to allow the appointment at all. and i understand, presumably when you have them on the country and raise the flag and say look who we've got here. nicole hannah jones is everywhere, she gave a speech at bolten college recently and someone who is a genuine academic celebrity. celebrity endorsement is all a university wants to do, there are lots of other celebrities that they could select as well, but it's a terrible idea, really tarnishes the reputation

of the university of north carolina that they allowed this to go ahead at all. thank god they didn't give her tenure as well. >> donna, on that point, this really concerns me what peter said, you hit the nail on the head. but facts should matter, especially in journalism. it's not even as if we're talking about she got facts correct, but came to a different conclusion. we're talking about that she's literally got facts wrong. another one who i have respect for, gordon, one of my favorites, read him in graduate school, gordon, i mean, he goes through it as well. there are so many historians where she gets it wrong and if you criticize her just like we're seeing now, if you criticize her, it's sexist or it's racist and we're talking about somebody who is not getting facts correct and she will be teaching in the

journalism school, where we should expect facts should be correct. if you want to be an opinion person and come up with a different opinion, that's fine. but she is not even open to being -- to when her facts are challenged to correcting those mistakes. it's problematic. it's especially problematic for journalism when it's at such a low point in american opinion anyway. now we're putting somebody who doesn't get her facts straight and she is going to be teaching the school of journalism ap the whole thing is whether or not she got tenure. we should look at whether she has the qualification toss

teach at that level. when facts are wrong and if she were teaching historical fiction, that might be something else. but we're talking about somebody teaching journalism and facts, she is proven, and she's been challenged, that the facts that she provides are not always accurate. >> it's such an interesting point, amy and jenna and others i'd love for you to weigh in on this. ... journalism practiced by thepeopt seems to be a question based on the consistent criticism by

historians of the fact that she has gone wrong in the project upon which she has received so many accolades. >> i think that we cannot overestimate the sickness of the university bubble think the people at the hudson school at carolina were genuinely blindsided and they would not think that nikole hannah-jones was the best acquisition they could possibly get for the school. they are taken by the accolades that she won by her celebrity status and i think because the university bubble in a very political bio culture, they haven't heard or taken seriously

the criticism of haner jones so i don't think, they think that the celebrity on their staff is going to improve the reputation of the journalism school they should be concerned with the quality of their school but they shown in the past that they're not my colleague wrote about it several years ago that journalism gutted its requirement for students in the major they aren't required to take history or economics or statistics or any of the things that would help them become better journalists and better understand the things that the reporting on and this is in keeping on the direction of the hudson school in recent years. it's a real change. >> her description of her as an academic celebrity is apt but

she's an academic celebrity without the academics. this is been going on for some time and we all kinda point to the curriculum and standards this is a high-profile case about and that's precisely what is problematic in this case and the granting of tenure of preeminent classroom is not a matter of celebrity, it might be in some cases to bring somebody what we have tested experienced someone who is a journalist and done the journalistic partners, these are questions about the relationship with facts or at least their way of approaching their work this seems to have

nothing to do with that i would go so far to suggest we seem to be having two conversations, as i read the story and i follow the 1619 debate in association with other things like 1776 the claim here being made by the advocates of 1619 have nothing to do with that, they don't claim to be following fax fax is not what this is about, this is the narrative and ideology this is about using in this case the academy and the opposed in using the situation, i think that's what journalism and the board of trustees and others who are watching this go on need to step back and realize what is

happening this is not merely one set of facts versus another set of facts that we disagree this is upending the whole status of facts and history and truth for political purposes to bring about outcome which has nothing to do with those facts per se that's not what this conversation is about, i think we shouldn't fool ourselves, critics because people on the right don't like her fax, that's not what this is about this is the fundamental questioning of the whole academic project, the whole journalistic project itself pursuing the facts in writing about the truth it undermines and questions history itself and we should see that for what it is.

>> too that point it is interesting never, on facebook and i received a question about this by e-mail 1619 project itself can you give us an example in a brief summary of what nikole hannah-jones is arguing for what she sees as a fact inner 1619 project and what is wrong with that. >> i want to defer to peter he has rodent a lot about this and is pretty good on all this and is original, this whole thing was based on a series of facts and claimed on the narrative the overarching interpretation that it says america was founded and began because of an mistake of to defend slavery that's the central idea that animates all of american history, that is

factually incorrect but overarching the historically incorrect and my point is been tended to get around the actual facts of history in order to spin this other argument to go after the very claims of things like the american founding in american history with what has to do with establishing that right now and fighting current politics this country is systemically racist and we need to have certain policy outcomes that's why we are arching factual problems and i use that although 1619 project i know you would have more to say than that. >> that's incredibly wrong point, this is the project that advances the thesis that america

was racist from the get-go in august of 1619 seem to gorge the passengers who are captive and being captured in the caribbean and what were encouraged nikole hannah-jones says that the beginning of slavery in america, that is a perky point because he didn't recognize slavery they assimilated these people to the category and within a few years most of them were set free with the white population and citizens of this country. it's a very bigoted idea of 1619 and the beginning of slavery in america, that is false in this seed has been growing up into

the giant bush of claims with every significant event in american history was part of the scheme by which black people were oppressed and treated as a child and there is a history for american slavery that needs to be told and manages to get the basic part of it wrong some of the claims are so outrageous that they've got even people on the far left exercised and they claim that the american revolution nikole hannah-jones inner lead essay in the 1619 project with the american revolution fought by the colonists against the british in order to preserve slavery and get the threat that the british crown by abolish slavery. >> on that point correct me if

i'm wrong even the new york times had gone too far and they tried to recanted the original fact checker professor came forward and she happens to be black they went back to the original tech and added to words instead of saying the columnist he gave them the rebellion to preserve slavery. >> even that is false because none of the columnist in the british never made that and we know from newspapers in the declaration of independence in private journalism and correspondence but numerous americans wanting to climb the revolution to our knowledge to this day no one has ever come in american columnist and said the

british will take her slaves away in fact the british were a slave created nation in the world at that point and the only complaint that americans have about the british slave trade they were bringing too many slaves to the world. this can be more false but entirely false i don't know what other adjective that are in their. >> to underscore what strikes me if i wrote something very publicly and criticized by gordon wood and shawn, and others i would immediately pursue a discussion to discover the truth as the facts and have that conversation. the very fact that were not doing that this is either all or

nothing you might except the 16th 19 project or we are defenders of slavery and we want to raise history and were mean people. that just tells you right there this is not about history and pursuing and trying to discover the accurate history and have a conversation with her students about that. this is a political battle right now and that gives up and it's so obvious in the discussion about the ten year for the key author of that makes it more clear was going on. >> we have questions from our viewers wanting to know what is the relationship between the 1619 project in critical race theory in here in north carolina big discussion about that being taught in our public schools. what is the relationship are

those two things the same or how are they related? >> i would give a simple answer the 1619 project is a concrete critical race theory, critical race theory has been around in academia for several decades, nicole knows what it is she's taken the generalization and try to give the material form by this particular agreed to this and false historical narrative and they duck tail together and you could keep critical race theory without the 1619 project in the 1619 project gives it life inform and makes it easier to put them to a classroom which is the whole point. >> please go ahead. >> let me add one thing a little bit to matthews point the 1619 project and being a political

battle, let's not forget 1619 makes the new york times relevant not that they weren't but they hadn't had as big as a viewership, when 1619 was released and there was people lined up around the city block people were buying the new york times. edition and they hadn't seen that response and barack obama and since she won the election in 2008, make no mistake this is also a way for new york times to make some money in the relevant in so many places across the country i'm not saying that's a primary driver but it is important to all of this.

>> i'm hearing some talk and reporting they may consider a lawsuit over this, is there any basis for that, what would she sue for, what would be the damages. >> she needs a contract for five years in the umc chapel hill's journalism school, i can't think of any credible legal argument that she could make as i've heard the plan of legal argument that she's going to make she might sue but i don't know what the charges would be and i can't figure it out and not creative and that kind of way. >> facts don't matter, look i think on this question critical race theory is important to understand in the general reader to observe to understand, send their kids to school throughout these terms let's set aside what

terms are used, critical race theory identity politics equity objectives, the terms keep changing but what strikes me is the bottom line there was a turn in history a longer explanation of that based on the intellectual tradition of liberalism and there was a turn in history the started looking at history intentionally backwards, history with defined facts and did figure out what history was telling us but it was to look backwards to figure out what we were looking for for current objectives that is critical race theory or critical theory which is we go back to find these things for the sole purpose of fighting current battles the current battle that they want to fight is about release and critical race theory

to apply to history which was the 1619 project is to look backwards and find which are looking for regards to the factor making narrative to fight the battle there is a connection between all of these things and history which is very important but again we can look at what it is this is not merely a dispute that history has gotten wrapped up of the current public debate and discussion over the race in american politics. these are intimately by definition connected and intentional move, the current status of the liberal scholarship to fight in this way to advance their objectives which is at the heart of what critical race theory was intended to do which is

disturbed race debates as a way to advance a hard left political agenda in the initial cases of critical theory to advance a marxist political agenda, it's all wrapped up into that and we used to see it for what it is. >> one of the things you have done in your professional life is to serve as executive director president trump 1776 advisory commission can you give us a brief summary of that commission's work where it stands. >> all be brief i want to hear other people and how this might connect i took the lead at the college to be the director in december of last year this was after the election it'd been announced on last year's

constitution day in the administration, what can we do with this commission somebody asked me too be involved in the commission of 1776 i would do that to i took leave to put this commission together, the purpose of the commission at large to advise the president by getting ready for the 250 theater per tree of independence and it was an important occasion in a report about the status of the principles so we took as an opportunity in 20 commissioners and went about it and quick work and tried and put a marker down and we didn't invent new ideas

or any new event we and would've been considered a mainstream argument in 1776 is actually the birthday of the country it was a time in which these people were developing on the eastern seaboard and becoming the people that would govern themselves and flood europe over liberty and declared their independence to push out of reason and eventually led to the writing of the constitution. and is a crucially important and to write what those principles mean especially the corporate that are created equal and are guide in the woke of the founding if you will and he would have a guy are guide with abraham lincoln and i pointed

out and what drives history is then protections and flaws and very clearly he talked about in those terms in the drive for america as a statement of the principal to help the truth, what's wonderful about american history and the compromise of slavery to create the union. what is great about america information includes equal use to begin the nation by saying all is created equal and replaying out the revolution the abolition movement began in america in the declaration that is the heart of the story that we wanted to tell an alter ego's

release a report on january 18 and a new private was inaugurated. steve: that's an important point i don't want that to slip by using the biden administration killed the commission and pulled the website? >> one of the reasons we had to get out because once it was published it was a public document and it will be taken out and will be sitting down and read on their own, if we come back to the discussion about critical race theory and increasingly from the education giving the index and advisory

objects to the regulation to teach at the school more importantly and i will point out the executive order by the 1776 commission was abolished and was the same executive order by which the new a administration instructed the federal government to pursue not equality but equity almost throughout the federal government that is to say the administration wanted to go intellectually and critical race theory and had to get rid of the 1776 they couldn't abide the continuation or the existence because it denies the promise or the political battle in the policy sections of the government. >> were added critical and astonishing point in our culture and our public discussion and that's on the one hand what were

talking about today is a big controversy nikole hannah-jones and hired by the chapel hill based in a project 1619 that is completely different from what you're describing about american history that is chronicled in the 1776 commission report, what seems to be biometric we upholding on the information about our founding and what is a person supposed to do and believe is accurate. >> i want to ask whether the 1776 was done to respondent 1619 project and the answer is it wasn't. it's in one footnote, otherwise that was not the situation at all. what it was the argument in the principles behind american

history and to point out the developing an understanding of americans in which the declaration that is fair and accurate and honest and teaches at once for all despite all the flaws there is a principle behind it. in earlier it's very important and we don't look at it as this is 1619 versus 1776. what were talking about is an accurate and fair history and is pretty impossible to deny 1776 was a speedbump of little importance in american history in favor of something else. and how to capture a good and accurate history and teach that to her students.

and by 1619 and remember these debates were not yesterday this is been going on for some time i've been studying this and putting our lifetime into this work and this is an ongoing discussion inheritance of americans what it means to be americans, that's important in itself and to help us as a country, help states were writing curriculum and instructing curriculum and helping school boards and helping homeschooling and pointing them towards good and accurate history we don't have the answer, we don't plan to have an answer were just planning towards good history

and this is the history of abraham lincoln in the history of the founding this is a history of civil rights movement and the abolition movement. that's what we need to be teaching and i think 1619's ideological debate that we need to get beyond so we can get back to having the good scholars teach good things in classrooms. >> that such an important point that matthew has made 1619 if you put that aside and put aside the unc chapel hill debate over haner jones is hiring teaching history, you have a degree in history, it is so important and were hearing about it from parents and their concern about things that they are finding their children are being taught in public school many people up close and personal with their

child's education to a necessity because of the pandemic and suddenly there concerned about the lessons that the children are being taught that is why they particular for effective education with doctor terry's do, they are focused on this in the social studies standards right now. in a couple of things on that to your point we've got all kinds of questions from parents during pandemic and everything else and were looking for a good history resource in the foundation is a north carolina history project it is simply the history of north carolina not trying to re-create american history, a lot of people are trying to come up with an american history collect room and we take care of north carolina history project

and can turning it into a k-12 curriculum and to convert that, to your point school boards and school districts have come to us and said cities that have it done we need this. there is a thirst for, the other thing on the whole point of the truth and honesty in history doctor just painted something on a website as north carolina goes through this new social studies standards that they're putting out and parents are wondering is a critical race theory and is up and doing what we thought is traditionally american history and matthew has talked about much of the stuff matthew has talked about our doctor comes out with supporting documents in there just glossary the terms in the state board of education, these are people talking about

social studies standards, history standards, they come up with the supporting document and it's a glossary of terms in our center for the head of education doctor jerry starts looking at these terms and say where have i seen the stuff before and he literally takes the verbiage from the state board of education and find out their sources or wikipedia and some of it is flat out plagiarized, this is the state board of education we have every right right now as parents you should be concerned about what is being talked and ask questions that is where things, that's why we need the 1776 commission and that's why at the foundation in north carolina history curriculum that

follows our history projects so people can get and will have other sources but what terry found those terms using wikipedia or plagiarizing, if you're gonna plagiarize are you gonna plagiarize wikipedia, come on with that it disrupted an entire meeting and slowed the train down because people are starting to say wait a second if they're not getting the definitions right or they're getting the definitions from wikipedia and their possibly plagiarizing our state board of education in the social studies standards has serious issues, this is the theme right now in north carolina with nicole haner john 1619 project and what shall be doing and what is happening

at the state board of education level. >> i think about this into me it is connected because we see as amy describes what is happening from the state board of education from the social studies standard, those kids some of them will end up in the state university system and they will be attending usc chapel hill and being taught by someone who claims the same with the signature project is 1619 project, over the years it seems there will become an acceptance of an alternative view of our country's founding which can shape the generation or more and that seems pretty concerning that we want to know what kids are being taught and what facts and what they want to think about as a whole another issue

we come to her own conclusion for good or bad about her country and we need to know what is actually good about our country. >> i think that is very troubling but it's also nothing new schools and colleges have been using howard's then of the united states for years and that intentionally looks through the lens of the oppressed, at every turn he points out the flaws in our country and of course there are flaws but it does not show the purpose and the principles in the tradition that build our country on the other side, that of course is nothing new in the other thing i want to point out in some ways they k-12 schools are feeding students who have

been indoctrinated into universities but it starts and nurse school of education and are universities where teachers are being trained in some of the most politicized and anti-factual department and universities they are politically one-sided and they repeatedly ignore research to the contrary other political agenda and it's a reason for years students were taught whole language instead of phonics and now school of education is where teachers are learning about equitable math and culturally sensitive science instead of learning facts, i'm going to put

a lot of this at the feet of her school of education and universities and where got cooked up in the first place. >> this discussion has been so valuable we have helped in some of the falsehoods that we know are out there in particular with nikole hannah-jones hiring situation and we had a discussion of the premise of the 1619 project and the status of the 1776 commission and i'm going to leave our viewers with resources so we know first of all for recording on this issue we want to make sure that you come to carolina journal.com at least once a day to check up on the reporting as the story continues to go on we don't know where it's going to go but carolina journal will be covering that amy mentioned the north carolina history project and that website with really

fascinating history of north carolina specific if you are looking for general knowledge or for your kids and supplements to what their learning peter you have written extensively about this issue where can folks find your writing about 1690 in nikole hannah-jones. >> i have about called 1620 critical response to 1619 and that's widely available i've written on american greatness at nas.org. >> radio find the 1776 commission report even though it's been pulled down from the website can we just google it and find it. >> is a public document is in the public realm so just search 1776 report and it'll come up in a bunch of other places have it on the website usually download,

i will know by the way it is put out a book version which includes the footnotes to all of our work which they criticized academic myself for not having footnotes and lo and behold we have a lot of footnotes and mainstream historians i pledge to keep your eyes out they will publish a full history of civics curriculum available to the general public. >> awesome, and that website. >> edu. >> would been talk with matthew he's a vice president for operations, peter what is the president of the national association of scholars jenna robinson is the president of the james d martin center academic renewal and amy cook is the ceo my colleague at the foundation, thank you so much we appreciate your perspective. >> we also want to thank you so

much for joining us, thank you for being engaged and caring about this debate for wanting to know what is really going on preparing about fax, that is so important every day we hope you go to the website of john locke foundation, the great fact-based research information on a variety of public policy issues also journalism done the old-fashioned way rigorous and fax, carolina journal.com that's a place to go for that. >> weakens on c-span2 every saturday american history tv documents american stories and on sunday book tv bring to the latest nonfiction books and authors funding for c-span2 the television company and more including buckeye broadband ♪

♪ buckeye broadband along with these television company support c-span2 as a public service. >> high school students your opinion matters, c-span videocam competition the national conversation by creating a documentary that answers the question how does the federal government impact your life your five to six minute video with federal policy or programs that affects you or your community student cam competition has $100,000 in total cash prizes and you have a shot of a grand prize of $5000 and the competition will begin to be received on wednesday september 8 for competition rules, gifts and more information on how to get

started, visit our website at studentcam.org. >> c-span shop.org is c-span online store is a collection of c-span products browse to see what's new your purchase will support our nonprofit authorization and to order the congressional directory with contact information for members of con entering the biden administration go to c-span shop.org. >> hello and welcome back to a house divided. this is your captain coming to you from abraham lincoln bookshop in chicago and i have our guest with us right here it's doctor karen cox, the author of no common ground confederate monuments in the ongoing fight for racial justice. doctor cox, welcome to the show. >> it's great to be with