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tv   In Depth Annette Gordon- Reed  CSPAN  August 27, 2021 5:21pm-7:21pm EDT

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rush is doing and what china is doing to stomach >> and now as if life isn't complicated enough this antiscience disinformation campaign which was homegrown in the united states and launched by russia so how do we walk all this back and restore diplomacy to its rightful place so we have a track record of success?
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>> host: annette gordon-reed on the anniversary of 1776 are we that exceptional nation we often tellll ourselves we are? >> guest: we are certainly trying to be. >> host: in what way? >> guest: i think their number people in society who were working to make the ideals of the declaration a reality in the ideals in the preamble -- preamble about the pursuit of happiness and i think we are trying to reach that potential. >> host: this is one of those silly questions but would the founders recognize who we are today? gets gone no, offo course not. some aspects of it they would but most of it they would not have anticipated blacks participating in politics and the power of the united states. at the time we are talking about
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1776 the 13 colonies in the middle of nowhere were leading an empire and we become an empire so i don't think they would have seen all that has happened in united states at this point. >> host: professor gordon-reed have you weighed in on the 1776 versus 6019 debate that we are having in the country right now? >> guest: i haven't written anything about it. it may have had a few stray tweets or something but no essay about it. >> host: what are your initial thoughts? >> guest: my thoughts are what i said before is that 1619 as you are referring to talked about the beginning of in the north american colonies and it sort of set the context of 1776.
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1776 is the beginning of what we call the -- of the country so these people are acting in the concept of 1619 was important. there there was in all 13 colonies that 1776 injured juices a new paradox and we can talk about that are not and whether it is a paradox that this idea that all men are d created equal in the society which a good number of people are. the anguish at that time are not sayingng things about all men ae created equal and things of that nature. it becomes an issue in united states breaks away and on the basis of the document that claims this universal ideal. >> host: where did that
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three-fifths clause come from? >> guest: this was a way of trying to apportion congress and they wanted to count totally so they would have representation and this was a compromise between the northern states in the southern states who are at the beginning concerned about who's going to have power in society because they come together as colonies but the regions were different in lots of ways. the regions have their own ways of life and madison said the differences between big states and small states in the states that have people and those who don't so this was a way of compromising to allow khalid that were used to being alone come together in union. >> host: this was not an easy process was at? >> guest: no, not at all.
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we think of states as states of the union but they saw themselves as different in jefferson talked about virginia and he talked about his country and that's what he meant. his country of virginia because it had been a separat colony so it took time and they created a union and that was a difficult process and a lot of compromises were made and it ended up paving over differences they came to a head obviously in the 1860s. >> host: one of those founders that you have written three books about thomas jefferson when did your interest start in ham? >> guest: my interest in jefferson started when i was in elementary school and art classrooms at the back of the classroom we had a separate library but in the back of the classroom we have a library and
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this was when i was in third grade and biographies of great american figures dolley madison, booker t. washington george washington carvers thomas jefferson and i read the jefferson biography during that year in third might -- my third-grade year inng the book s supposed to be like a biography but something that was told by a fictional enslaved boy. the book bothered me because it portrayed the enslaved boy as silly and not wanting to learn exacerbated and i knew that my classmates would send a message about black people and
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at the same time they were sending message about jefferson and his intelligence and i thought of myself as intelligent and curious and i wanted to learn how to read. i loved reading and i couldn't see why a slave boy had to be portrayed that way. that was my introduction to jefferson and at that time i read other age-appropriate books about monticello and thinking about slavery as well and this was a person or wrote the declaration of independence but at thee'rs same time was a slave owner and what's that about? so my interest started in school and continued up until now i guess. >> host: wisher schools segregated at that point or had he been integrated? >> guest: actually i had integrated this particular school and i integrated the school of my hometown when i was in the first grade.
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by the time i got to the third-gradee things have change. there were more of black kids and i was there by myself at first but this supreme court cases and so forth required the immediate integration of all the schools at anderson which is where i was by the time i read my first biography about jefferson. integration was new at the time and i had started that in our town. >> host: you write in "on juneteenth" you integrated that school àot la ruby ridges withot the police escort. >> guest: is my parents and school district and the school newspaper, not the school newspaper but the town newspaper decided we would make a big deal about it and i would just go and
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it will be as if nothing was unusual but of course it was very unusual and i remember that first year there the delegations of educators and people coming to stand in the doorway to look at us, me and the five or so white kids who were in class with me to see how this experiment was going. it was an intense time and my mother said at one point i would hide which may have been a stress reaction to thing but i look back at that time and i focus on my overall feelings which was of excitement of being in school and learning and bass would galvanize. i had a friend and there were some white kids that were not nice to me that my teacher my first grade teacher in my second grade teacher these were the two formative years weree just
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fantastic and wonderful to me and they did everything they could to make everything run smoothlye but there were rough times as you can imagine. >> host: annette gordon-reed is written three books the first in 1997 thomas jefferson and sally hemings and the second was "the hemingses of monticello" that won the national book award and the pulitzer prize for that look in her most recent along with author peter on math is most blessed of the patriarchs. why did jefferson referred to himself as most blessed of the patriarchs? >> guest: is how he thought himself. he was comparing himself to the patriarchs. he had the enslaved people and he had power and all these types of things. he was the patriarch of this particular area and the thought of himself that way and of
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course we look at that and it's like what? that's why insisted that we put that in quotes on the book he gives within my people thinking that we thought of them is that but it was his identity. we look at this as negative and that's why i didn't want to be associated with calling him back but he saw himself as a person who had a responsibility and that's what he meant. we look at the slaveholder and all of those things the father who has control of the daughter and so forth as this is a bit much. he saw it as here are all of the people that i'm responsible for that i'm supposed to take care of and that was the image of himself. he says that a couple of times and calls himself that a couple of times and look is about trying to figure out what that actually was and what it was
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that he meant by that. >> host: how long have we known about sally hemings? >> guest: well it depends on who we are and who is we? people in the african-american community have the story is an article of faith from the 19th century and we referenced it. we had non-, the story came out in the 1790s and came with sally hemings names in 1802 so the story about it has been a public sphere since the beginning of the 19th century. it was rediscovered in the 1950s when they found hemings recollection and a novelist who was a jefferson person as well found it and brought it to the attention of jefferson scholar so it puts it in a new light.
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they didn't talk about it explicitly in the book but it sheds new light and -- wrote about it in her biography and she put the recollections in the back of her book. it was a man who sat in 1873 that he was -- so that recollection now put in the public eye and i read it when i was about 14 years old and that was the first time i had ever seen a narrative by a former enslaved person and it is about someone in that kind of predicament and i knew the slaveowners had children and enslaved women and there were children born in connections between these people rape in most instances and other connections that i knew that by
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talking about a person an individual whom i had an interest in them before this was like a new twist on the story. >> host: how widespread are the descendents of jefferson and sally hemings? >> guest: they had many kids and i don't know for sons had children but his daughters had lots of kids so there were lots of people around the country who are descended from coup were hemings descendents and i've met a good number of them and correspond with the good number of them and i will than to a family reunion with them including some people from jefferson's legal family. they have lots of kids in those days. it becomes exponential as some point. >> host: annette gordon-reed
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had they've been recognized the hemings side of the family? >> guest: i don't think so. the monticelloiziz association e associations with jefferson and i don't believe thatt they have and i'm almost certain it probably would have been the news and who would have heard something about it but i'm not sure how many were seeking that recognition because they had their family story and that was their family story and that was pretty much their attitude about it. >> host: the c-span presidential historian survey just came out. we do this every four years after an election and to present you have written about extensivelyo e thomas jefferson came in at number seven and has been consistently at number seven and another president you've written about andrew johnson came in second to last right above james buchanan. you think those are pretty
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accurate ratings? >> guest: yeah i would say so. in my book about johnson came out that was the one year -- he's usually just above the canon canon but i think that's aboutetou right. he was a terrible person. the thing about buchanan and johnson they both merit being at the bottom of the list of residents but jefferson should be in the top 10. it's about right. >> host: why is that in your opinion? >> guest: probably because something that happened during his presidency and that is a controversial thing because people think about what that
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meant for slavery and what it meant for indigenous people in thatat area but it is the beginning of united states and the continental united states. gwen ifill those surveys out i don't think about necessarily about how i feel about a particular action or particular president in their policies. think about how they exercise power in the office and what they did that help change the country so i think certainly that washe a claim to fame for m and the first and not really address in the first term as a successful term in the second term there is the embargo on all those issues and second terms her eyes paralyzeth for a president but i think he definitely believes in the top 10.
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the day where talking talking about speaking of he gets points for that as well. even though he was not president then. think it's a cumulative score for him but i would say louisiana and some of the things he did in his first term in setting the tone this idea about the people as sovereign and rulers and jeffersonians which continued after his president and his afterlife, madison and monroe take their place after him and even jackson who we didn't talk much about and john quincy but jackson saw himself, he admired jefferson even though it jefferson didn't admire him. so the influence of jefferson and the age of jefferson that we think of as part of his presidency. >> host: were you asked to write the andrew johnson biography by the american
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presidents series or did you volunteer for its? >> guest: i was asked to do it. we were on the board of advisers and i knew him from that and the other editorth paul gollop was e editor on the book i did on vernonpa jordan. it was only 40,000 words and i said sure. it was not something i would have ever out of the blue thought of doing. when i started looking into it i realized even though johnson is not a terribly pleasant person which should be part of the -- but it is if you want to spend time writing about them he made fateful decisions that put in
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place other fateful decision so even if he's notn attractive aa man and as a character or world as he played his pivotal and people should know about it because of that. >> host: the only southern senator not to leave the senate. guess who exactly and that's why lincoln. in hiss original bp for him because lincoln wanted to send a message. see, we can get back together. i can have a southerner on mike ticket and we can go forward together with those but it was a disastrous choice. >> host: picked up in nearby carefree was you referred to johnson as quote quirky and --
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's wife apparently time to write and that's a good quality in some ways. stick to what it is and perseverance and he didn't accept limitations. he knew that he came from a working-class background and he didn't let himself be pampered. he held basically every office they could have mayor, governor and on his way up to vice president and then he becomes president because of the tragedy but yeah he took huge risks and
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they are not as a lot of other things in my look other than -- was important and that's the key thingth but his grit and his loyalty to the union where i could say okay there is something there. he played a pivotal role in the pivotal time in the country's history. >> host: before we leave andrew johnson i want to ask about dolly. dolly, the slave girl. >> host: >> guest: we really don't know much about her. theyey are people that claim johnson knew her but there's not that much known. because my book was basically about his presidency and the
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american presidency series you don't necessarily talk about the personal lives of the president but the main thing is to talk about their policies and the workings of their presidency. i didn't go into a lot of detail talking about enslaved people. >> host: annette gordon-reed back to the historical presidency -- andrew johnson has been dropping since badly since 2011 where he was. number 13 and he's down to number 22. what does that say about him? >> guest: well it says different people have -- generations respond to different public figures differently over time. in much the same way that historians ask different questions of people in the past and situations in the past based
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upon their adaptation and the question of indigenous people and we were interested in -- jackson is an interesting figure because there isn't age of jackson with the rise of american democracy and it was the rise of american democracy but it was derived of what people thought i've of and am not making this up the idea that white men should rule so even in situations and places where of blacks hadpl the franchise and were able to vote it was taken away from them so you have this expansion of democracy and white men of the working classes are gettingwe power that they didn't have before. by then we have of the vote by then it's a restriction on blacks. what does that mean.
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renative americans before jacksn but jackson's treatment of native americans is seen as a problem and i'm putting that mildly. if you think about those issues hexa looks worse than he may hae before. and people were thinking about race and african-americans during this time or people were assuming that there was only one way to handle the situation and then he becomes a problematic figure. others like him because of this spirit of democracy and if you have this notion of her grasp if
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you are in a historical process that leads to better and better things you could say it's okay that they were had the taken away from them. there is no inevitable and that we are working for and people can sayve yeah but you can't thk about what happens after but think about what's happening in that moment and what we think about the fact that black people could vote before and now they ndcame both in the notion of a white man's government and how dodo we deal with it at that particular time not saying it's okay because eventually this is going to be all right so there's a sense that there's a decline but who knows? jefferson's fortunes have risen and fallen over the years and
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now resorted in the trough but it's not likely that he's going to stay there. these things come and go and generations are interested in different things and who knows what we'll be on to in the future. >> host: thisn survey is sent out to 100ll historians nationwe eightt different criteria and by the way this is available on c-span.org but we do it every four years after the end of one president and donald trump is included for the first time on this t list and he comes and foh from the bottom, 897 points for abraham lincoln and trained or 12 for donald trump. is it fair to judge somebody six months after the end of his administration? >> as a historian i would say no.
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that's not really history. you want time to pass to have some perspective but some of the things that happened in the trump administration jan -- the janer six insurrection people believe that he was taking that on in some ways and was involved in that. and it's an extraordinary circumstance because filling out a survey to have something like this so quickly a lot of the judgment comes from that so an extraordinary event makes people -- it shapes the way people decided to do that survey and that's one of the reasons and as well as handling of theth pandemic. i don't know that the problem but you asked the question so
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they responded on the base of what i think were extraordinary circumstances for presidency but ideally you want time to pass because you don't really know what the effects are of the presidential actions will be so those are less sound than judgments made about people further in the past is my view of it. it may be different thinking about particular actions and contemporary times that historians you need more time. >> host: june 19, 1865 poole the people of texas are informed that in accordance with the a proclamation from the executive of the united states all slaves are freed. equalitylves absolute of her small rights and rightsfr of property between former masters and slaves and the connectionsl heretofore between
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them becomes that between employer and hired labor. they are informed that they will not be allowed to collect a military post and they will not the supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. what is that? >> host: gordon granger's general order who comes to galveston in 1865 to take control after the final surrender ofhe the confederate army. he issued this order and that's theat day we have come to know s juneteenth that eventually became a federal holiday. >> host: but the civil war ended in april. >> guest: lee surrendered in
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april and the army stopped fighting and it had the last battle of the civil war and that the confederates one x. with that decided the effort was for nott and that's when granger gos in with his troops. >> host: is the text of native did you grow up knowing about juneteenth? >> guest: yes. i do know the details about granger by gas i did corrupt celebrating juneteenth. i've had people ask me and i don't remember a time that we were not celebrating and did not celebrate juneteenth. it was a family holiday and a community holiday. i don't think we talked about much. we talked about in school but this was a holiday cared for
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particular type people of the african-american community and i thought it was a black holiday frankly. became it paid holiday in 1980 but before then i thought it was just about the black community and this was when slaves were freed. we barbecued and threw firecrackers and little kids sparklers and those kind of things is what i remember. >> host: where did the term juneteenth come from? >> guest: mostly people said it's a matchup of june 19 and other people said some people celebrated over three day period and they weren't sure whether it was the 18th, the 19th or the 20 so they just had juneteenth. i don't know that i buy that
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because the order decree was written and it was announced. there's a story about being attacked on the door of the episcopal church and galveston so people knew what day it was but it's a mash-up of june 19. josé you weree recently in washington at the white house, where you? >> guest: yes i was. i was there for the signing ceremony. i was stunned by the quickness of which the salt to place. i wasi pretty confident that it would become a federal holiday but i thought it might be later and i got an e-mail an invitation attacks and then an e-mail an invitation to come down to the whiteth house for te signing ceremony so i quicklyny hop on a plane and went there
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for this or money. >> host: in your most recent book "on juneteenth" the right there's so much to misunderstand about texas misunderstandings that stem from a general black of attention to or even awarenes of the state's foundational aspects. what does that mean? >> guest: people think of texas and i certainly have , had this, people think of texas as the land of cowboys and oilmen. thatco would be constructed of a white man my cowboy and that's the hollywood presentation of them. it probably exemplifies what people think about texas. once there was t a place of cattlemen and they had their way
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of life as then the wildcatting where people came in and knew the rich people who challenge the cowboys and they hadso come together but they leave out the part about plantation owners in texas the place where the father texas doesn't want the people of texas to become cattle ranchers. they were full of the expectation that they would bring enslaved people in texas would take its place as part of the cotton empire. the foundational aspect are the things we don't think about very much and it was clear that was the intention and the texans break away from mexico and they
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gave texas an exemption the texans were t never really secue about that so that was one of the reasons they decided to leave mexico and when they do they set up a constitution that have civilians have expressly protect slavery which prevent people of african descent from emigrating there without permission saying they could never become citizens so not thinking about texas is having been a place in society and sometimes the questions i get people are confused about things they hear coming out of texas and talk about race and what is the problem here. this is not a place of
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african-americans or people who had anything to do with what we thank of as the old south. especially georgia mississippi and places like that. it actually was so the premise of the book was to disabuse people of this notion that it was all about the west and the west is important and i don't want to downplay that but where i grew up these people who are my ancestors who in one case in georgia and mississippi wasn't enslaved society and they still do without today. >> host: have you've been able to trace your family thoroughly? >> guest: not thoroughly. my father's side from the
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1860s and maybe a little before then so i have deep roots in texas and my family did not on either my mother side or my family -- my mother side or my father's side. they went to california and they went west but there were other places ass well. i stayed there and i'm the one who left texas to go to new hampshire at dartmouth and to live outside of texas. most of my familiess in texas ad when they left the town to go somewhere they went to dallas or san antonio and they didn't come to new york or go to l.a.. most of my family still there. >> host: back to your book "on
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juneteenth" on page 101 quote in 19 sick -- 1967 the movie the alamo, i was taken to save by my best friend. >> guest: was an exciting thing. conroe is little town outside of houston and now of course ahouston has reached out but it was an exciting time to go see this movie about people that we knew about, travis and davy crockett. these were names that were knowd to us and my friend really was into those characters.
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i thought of him as a godlike gerson and the booing knife became famous because of that. it's a very heroic portrayal of the alamo as you would expect it and there was nothing in there to surprise me. there were things that made me comfortable. they had a character who is a slave and was portrayed not in t the way that made me uncomfortablee that was in it bt for the most part it was this presentation of this battle making a last stand against the
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mexicans. when i'm a teenager in my teenage years or maybe when i was in college and read more about it i came to understand the texans had reasons to fight for their independence but as i mentionedf before one of those was to protect the slaveholders and protect texas and make it a slaveholding republic. i'm african-american and my ancestors were enslavedd. in tes and how do i have this heroic understanding h about the alamo when i realized one of the things we were fighting for was toee keep my people in bondage. as a kid i enjoyed the movie except for that part.
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lawrence harvey was really cute i thought that later on i could see problems with its this on the book i talk a little bit about that how you can reconcile this. posted good afternoon welcome to booktv onno c-span2 independence day 2021 our monthly program "in depth" where we invite one author to come on and talk about his or her book. this month is harvard professor pulitzer prize-winning author annette gordon-reed. she began her writing career in 1997s thomas jefferson and sally hemings and american controversy came out that year and "the hemingses of monticello" came out of 2008 and that one won the pulitzer and the national book award and andrew johnson heroo
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brocker free came out in 2010 most blessed of the patriarchs thomas jefferson written with peter on this in 2016 and "on juneteenth" came out this year and annette gordon-reed has co-authored a book with the late vernon jordan which came out in 2001 and she is edited race on trial law and justice in american history. this is an interactive program and your voices are very important. you want to hear from you and here's your chancere to talk wih professor gordon-reed 202 the area code 748-8200 if you live in east and central timee 748- 8201 for those of you in him on thehe pacific times and you n send a text. if you do please include your first name and your city and this is for text messages only
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202-748-8903. now you can also contact us via social media face but twitter are just remember a app booktv are twitter handle so you can make a comment thatt way too. andl we will scroll through thoe numbers again in case you didn't get a chance to write them down or hear them. we will give you another chance to do g that. annette gordon-reed it was in 2008 that you won the national book award in the happen to be there at the presentation that night and i remember you walked by me and you looked a little bit stunned by what was happening when you won that night. we want to play a little bit of your acceptance speech. >> i have to thank the people who are not here my mother and father daddy and offered gordon who are responsible for r
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everything that i am that is good and gave me a sense of how important learning was and quite frankly to be personal about it the journey that black people in the country are on and that's what i been trying to get my scholarship and try to do with this book. they have gone on and i hope they are lucky me and i know that they would be very proud of this moment. >> host: annette gordon-reed who were your parents? >> guest: might father was alfred gordon senior and my mother was betty gene gordon and they were texans as i mentioned before and they grew up in texas and a segregated society.re my father went into the army as an 18-year-old as he graduated from high school who helped his younger sisters. his mother died when he was 11 and his father was -- and he's a
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career army person and came out and had a series of businesses when i was growing up. my mother was an english teacher pray she went to spelman college and csu for graduate school and they got married in livingston and had known each other when their kids. my mother had gone the way they came back and so in some ways they had been childhood sweethearts and got married and when i was six months old port in livingston and at six months old we move to mcconnell texas and that's the town that i write about in "on juneteenth." >> host: you said your mother was a high school teacher and you write the effects of integration on schoolchildren black-and-white has received a great amount of attention over the years but what has been much less considered the affected
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integration have on black teachers. >> guest: i'm talking about the fact that my parents i believe are idealistic. this is the mid-60s and black people were -- the civil rights act and the voting rights act and i think they saw sending me to integrate in school as part of an advance a in civil rights. later on when they became disillusioned about the way integration and played itself out innt my town and across the south in general because my parents were very political people and talked about politics or not and they were not just in our town but all over the south. they became disillusioned because integration seemed to be
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blacks joining widespread whites didn't relate to change anything. it was integration but not integration of the teachers and across the south in my town and across the south many black teachers were taken out of the classroom and my mother remained in the classroom and she loved teaching. she stayed there but i think there is a bit of disappointment about that fact because she said to me that she had gone to college to teach black students. she loved her white students thatd she loved her black students and one of the great things i've heard from her formertu students they tell me w much she meant to them as a teacher white and black people but she was part of the generation that saw themselves as a vanguard and the phrases
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people used in those days to uplift the race and they were there to prepare black students for what they would be facing in a segregated society and not just to live in a society but how to make things better for black people and when there is integration and people would move from the classroom where she worked at connell -- mcconnell high school they were wonderful friendships that grew out of that is very different from what sheipat had known as this group of black men and women had this great mission in people who were imperiled. the white students, the society had been made t for them so they didn't have to do anything other than their individual potential but there was no notion that you
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are group of people who have things to do and we've been on the journey since 1865 or even before then and so she became a little disillusioned about this and integration was carried out. >> host: why did you get a lot degree from harvard? >> guest: that's a long story. i got a lot degree for a couple of reasons. i think my parents integrating the schools of our town gave me an early look at law because i understood that this was something that had been made by the court and lawyers were in the court and justices generally
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people who had gone on to be lawyers. i wanted to be a writer for most of my life and for all of my life really but i saw law is the most practical thing for me to do. my experience of integrating in school made me focus on law and the practicality of it my father admired lawyers than if he had the opportunity when he was been a up he would have lawyer so i think it was probably the purview of my father and i went to harvard because it was harvard. i knew that lots of people who to do things and to government officials harvard is a place that provides a public service and a lot of my
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colleagues and people who run the faculty of four went back and forth between government and academia. a wall street law firm and transferred to a small agency called the board of corrections which is the oversight agency to the department of corrections and my job or our job was to write the standards for the jails and make sure that they were followed. it was like a tiny agency that had a huge mandate and no money to carry it out. i practiced for seven years either in private practice or government practice as well in new york.
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>> host: you were known as a historian and a history professor but did you meet a supreme court justice at harvard law school? >> guest: yes i did. robert reid, we met at the association picnic the first week and i thought he was a good-looking guy and we were in the same section. harvard has a big law school and he was in my section. we were in the legal methods section. we used to sit in the lobby of our doorman walked sctp after we finish studying. we got married, we got engaged in my second year of law school and then we got married the day
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after graduation at the church right there in the private law school campus. >> host: robert is a justice at the new york supreme court. will you be teaching in person this fall at harvard and what would you be teaching? >> guest: yes i will be back and this year in the fall i will be teaching. i'm very excited about that and i'm teaching american legalme history in the fall and sharing the entry level hiring so i will have that class in the fall and in the springtime i will be teaching a class on constitutional law and i will be teaching legal method. >> host: peter on f. is your
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co-author. we want to hear from callers in california you are first up with "on juneteenth." >> thank you for taking my call call -- annette gordon-reed. my question is about thomas jefferson and sally hemings. it's a terrible thing but he owned her and there were many women i'm sure that would have been more than happy to be his companion in i understand he promised his wife he would not remarry but what do we know about the interpersonal as much as we can know about that? >> guest: we don't know anything about the nature. people would say it could only
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be rape because you mentioned he owned her. sally hemings' grandchildren or great-grandchildren and i'm trying to get it right bullets how jefferson loved her. mr. jefferson loved her dearly they said that they don't talk about how she felt about him and once he comes back to the united states and this is something that started when they were in france the place where sally hemings and his older brother james could get her freedom and she thought about doing that the jefferson promised if she came back she would live the good life in monticello and any children they had would be safe
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growing up and she comes back with him. obviously she trusted him to carry that out but she's 16 years old and 16 in 1860 was -- but still young and impressionable and she comes back with him and in fact what he said he w was going to do he did that we don't know any more about it. i think about this is all in his power. when she comes back virginia she's totally in his power but it strikes me as unlikely that he would maintain a purely sexual interest in her for 38 years. that wouldn't be the first thought you have in your mind about the wayy people act but we
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don't know. we don't have her words about him and we don't have his words about her. we just have as i said the great-granddaughter talking about it and talking only about him and i mentioned this in "the hemingses of monticello", that when he dies she keeps items from him that belonged to him and gave them to her children as an heirloom. i don't know what that h means t i mention it because it's the only acumen we know besides coming back to him that we know about her relationship with him but this is something that people knew through novels. there was a novel about sally hemings but unless we find
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material we are going to know much about him. >> host: -- as in brian texas. >> caller: i had heard sally hemings with h the half-sister f jefferson's wife. have you addressed that at all and then i will ask my question. >> host: go ahead and ask your second question. >> caller: okay. my hometown is also your hometown. i discovered when i discovered a beautiful black women at 19 or 20 that was a big shock to me that was even possible so that's my first example of racism and i've been working to get rid of
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it, my ever since. i'm an activist of the 60s and my seminary classmate is -- and here's my question. there was always a rumor that a black man -- on the steps at 32. do you know anything about that? was to conroe texas? >> guest: conroe texas.en there's a hot bed of racism. >> host: let's hear from annette gordon-reed sally hemings a half-sister and his implicit racism and the courthouse? >> guest: sally hemings was the daughter of of the father of jefferson's wife so sally
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hemings was jefferson's white half-sister. his implicit bias it's understandable if you grew up in a town that had a very very tough racial history and there was -- on the courthouse steps in conroe. supported in the newspaper. this was a person who is accused of doing something to a white woman and was lynched essentially and i talk about this in the book. conroe variants asio a racial violence in the town that made it a place that some of my relatives would even spend the nightd in conroe because of its racial past but there are stories to be told another
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towns. the story could be told another places. this is something that's happening in this century is taking place and gatto it had a very tough history. >> host: lisa, cicero indiana, hi lisa. guess who i am so impressed with your entire presentation here and kudos for you taking up a law degree, very much needed and the books you've written in your lifetime and i question is simple. as a single black parent i became -- after 17 years in my home. it led me to the homeless and i
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have a history of -- productivity. i thought i was alone in first but the agency that i'm goingfoo for help since it was ruled that my attorney misrepresented me in taking my home and forging my signature. until we are getting a little off topic and i'm sorry about your situation but what did you want to ask annette gordon-reed? >> guest: because i of her experience wondering if she could guide me to the proper agency or resource? >> host: i think we got the point. yyou have any words for her annette gordon-reed? >> guest: i'm sorry for your situation but there have to be legal places are bar association in your area that you can
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connect to people who would be able to help you in that situation. but you are saying is true there was injustice and i would contact a lawyer is the best answer i would give. >> host: margaret in fayetteville arkansas, margaret please go ahead with your question or comment for this story and annette gordon-reed. >> caller: thank you so much for being on the program and thank you so much for having professor gordon-reed. i strongly believe the desire to protect the institution of slavery is one of the reasons we have the declaration of independence and just trying to read more deeply into what really happened in our history i have come to believe that great today on the 4th of july have really mixed feelings that i'm
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trying to digest and what this means that at the beginning of our country this tremendous desire to protect the slaveholders and the institution of slavery. i'm bothered by that so much and how should i regard this? i was influenced by learning about the james somerset case and other things of the times, the 1770s and what was happening here in north america. >> host: i think we got the point. annette gordon-reed? >> guest: there were people who wanted to protect slavery in 1776 and i think looking at the constitution as the ratification of the constitution lays this out much more clearly. he sees south carolina and states who are adamant about
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protecting the institution of slavery. 1776 the revolution and get started in boston and in new england. there were certainly people who were interested in protecting slavery. they basically retrying at first to get a change in their relationship with the situation in. great britain what not just the colonies but in the process of reforming the empire inn genera. and it was american colonists who were the ones who said we want to go and the people in the caribbean don't do it they have slavery down there but they also have the majority of black people so that could be a girl major reason. i don't think it's just about
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slavery. somerset didn't apply. somersetly says slavery is so odious that you have to have common cause to justify it. they were not doing it on the basis of common law. they have their statutes and their codes so jefferson doesn't talkn about that and it doesn't enter into any of his papers. they are not sitting at around worryingro about that but there were people who wanted to end slavery but there were also people who were complaining about all the changes that the british empire was trying to put in place and not just the 13 colonies but the empire overall. >> host: is that going to be part of your fall course on american law history? >> guest: absolutely.
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>> host: with a text from scott in dardanelle arkansas. what is your interpretation of outhe current political acrimony over critical race theory as someone who has seen many different s varieties of criticl theory from them in a square to theory i'm shocked that this analytical lens became risen to the republican base. >> host: >> guest: is not just republicans. critical race theory was something that would do my classmates kimberly crenshaw and the late harvard professor who eventually went to nyu they started this and they were former proponents of it and these are things that are taught in law school.
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they are taught at all law school so i was surprised on the thought that critical race theory is -- it's about law and how law has embedded race or races embedded ined the legal system and critical race theory is about trying to unpack that. i think what people r have dones made any talk about critical race theory, critical race theorists all talk about race but not all people who talk about race or critical race heiress and most of the people -- the earth's and when they talk about slavery they say the theory was for seven and 8-year-olds. i don't think that's what'st going on. .. i've read and people of said the
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make white students feel bad. so if you're talking about slavery and they know the vast majority of slaveholders were white in the slaveholders were white in the united states. africans had slaves too. the people they captured they sold tons europeans. were talking about americans and their relationship we have to one another as citizens and we have had since the time with america. census, 1776 will say that. but to say you can't talk about those things because you will make white students feel bad means you cannot talk about history. they are not responsible, no one should be teaching them that they did these things.
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you have to be able to say this stuffne happens. how do you talk about the republic of texas with not reading the constitution. to talk about race how does my great, great grandfather if they were texans how did they respond to this? yeah it was great, black people should be slaves or black people cannot be citizens here then i feel bad about it. that is part of life. not his life is not about feeling good about yourself all the time. it's also an opportunity to learn to say those people had ideas of which i disagree. i want to do better, i want to do different things, you ared not hostage to all of that. this is a bit off of your question here. i am per flex as you are about it, other than a real concern
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about airing these stories. it kind of does explain some of the inequalities that exist in society today. people do not want to admit things that happen to african-american were unfair, were not right. and i amsa not saying we shouldn't talk about that either. i am as surprised by it as you are. there will be pushback against some of this legislation some will be declared unconstitutional. they will find a way to talk about thend truth. as long as they are telling the truth, it is the truth. it's the truth t there were jim crow laws. when i went to the movies we had to sit in the balcony.
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when i went to a doctor's office there was a separate waiting list. there were people alive where this actually happened. people were ashamed of it that is a good response. then you say we are not going to do this anymore, we are not held hostage to the past we want to do something better we want to be better. >> you are watching book tv on c-span2 monthly in-depth program. one author two hours as harvard professor pulitzer prize-winning historian annetteet gordon reed, from san diego the one time we visited in texas we notice the texas state flag was flown on staffs among the american flag as their mythology. >> i would say so.
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when i was growing up i recalled seeing the confederate flag only occasionally the last time i was w in texas i was riding around visiting. in that trip than i had seen and our entire childhood in texas. it was attached to current day political things and that is what it is. certainly when i was growing up itg was all about texas. the united states, that is great.
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but the loyalty was on texas as a state. this chauvinism about texas as a state that you see in white texans and blacks texans. someone was asking me the other day a person from another state they celebrate emancipation day on a different day, january 1. and there are people in virginia to do something in april. is that why is this texas how did they manage to have their day of emancipation become a federal holiday? it's because of the tenacity and chauvinism of black texans who kept celebrating this holiday from 1866 up until today a. and then when they left texas they would go to another state and said there is this holiday we celebrate and you should celebrate it too. i don't know south carolinians
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and other people when they go to places insist people celebrate the holidays the date celebrated back in south carolina, florida, other places. yes, this mythology about texas there is no question when i was growing up we were raised to think we were special people because we were from texas. i think many black people took that seriously in many white people took thatop seriously. i don't think it's going to be a coincidence we end up with june 13 as a holiday. because the black texans kept us alive and were very consistent. this meant something, obviously i think it does mean something to the country as a whole. my hope is juneteenth will be an umbrella holiday for the celebrations of emancipation. i think you are right. there is a i texas chauvinism that shows itself pretty
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clearly. we went to linda francisco you are on with author annette gordon reed for. >> caller: thank you thank you thank you. it's a great program c-span. doctor reedth you are an american treasure that is all i have to say. you mentioned earlier you're surprised of the passage of one to note do you think this was maybe a way to appease black people to maybe quiet the narrative about the the other asian hate crime bill that was passed unanimously very quickly? whatr you think about that? i hear that on social media lot. >> of people think that that is a very naïve thought.
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the passage of a federal holiday think juneteenth is an important catholicism. we live byt symbols and symbols are important. voting rights both things hate crimes, those are existential questions. people might have thought that that it would've been a very naïve thoughts. i cannot see any way they would say we've got juneteenth now we don't have to vote. no. but i am not going to underestimatet people's sense of how they can get over on other people. that is not going to work. that is a hope it is a naïve hope. i think the juneteenth holiday almost became a holiday last year. there was one senator who had been blocking it. this time he decided to let it go.
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i thought it might become a federal holiday but i thought it would be later in the atyear. i was taken aback. i was going along onn my virtual book tour the house voted on wednesday, i love the president was overseas and he was pretty came back and did this. the surprise was the speed at which it was going along once it might become a federal holiday and later in the year. just like that it seemed to come to fruition in the blink of an eye. >> host: is serendipitous your book came out right before that. >> speech it when i was working on the book during the pandemic and new york city, i knew the holiday thing was out there. that certainly was not a primary motivation for writing the book are thinking i could enforce at it anyway. but it was good timing.
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they went jackie in gary, indiana text into you can you talk about how your jefferson and hemmings research has received more acceptance since its first publication? and why the writing of history has to be tested and rewritten? >> and when my first book came outoo in 1997 about thomas jefferson and sally hemming is a historical profession. certain people writing about jefferson primarily handled the story. that was my particular interest. i was not interested in proving this one way or the other. one thing i did know wasst historians had been treating madison hemmings regulation as well as recollection of other people in an unfair way. that is my third book was really about.
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it corroborated what i was saying. that led to generalal acceptance of the story. and then most people went on to talk about other things, thinking about the gender aspect of it, other aspects of slavery at monticello and taking a place of site in handling aboutdl slavery. people branched out to other kinds of things about writing history differently. people talk about a revision of history am sure people have heard that phrase. good historians are revising things, they are not just telling the same story over and over again like you read to your kids at night when you skip a line or whatever they
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say go back to that part. they recognize that. they are seeking something different than what historians are doing. we are constantly finding new information. finding new information and we ask different questions about things. if you are writing about the republic of texas, if you do not care about a question of race, for many people have written about that and not fixated on that constitution that explicitly promote slavery and protect it or the provision that african-americans cannot denigrate there. and they cannot be citizens. they don't careto about those people writing about the texas republic would not dwell on that they would not think about it. i'm hard-pressed to think of any graduate student or young person in last 20 -- 30 years,
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more than that maybe who wanted to write about the republic of texas who would not pause over that thing. they understand those provisions shape society. you cannot just say black people don't count. or it does not matter we are only going to fixate and talk about the things that deal with whites. those words are in the document. this generation of people would pay attention too that. maybe in the future there will be some other things people won't be interested in that. history is constantly evolving, the writing of history is constantly evolving as i said finding information and to, ask different questions. very often those questions grow out of the things that
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are taking place today. what doeske it mean to say people of african descent can't be citizens? how does that shape a culture? what would that be like after slavery is over? how do you get rid of that racial hierarchy that was put in place by those words? does it explain the lynching? burning somebody on the courthouse square in the 20th century. or other kinds of lynching. you see the connections between things happening today if you are expansive in your understanding about the past. we are constantly looking for those things that help you explain the foundation of the society. the origins of the society. thaty. is why history keeps changing the. >> about 30 minutes left in our conversation if you would
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like to dial in 202 is the area code, 748-8200 for eastern and central time zones, 202 -- mike if you want to send a text (202)748-8903. please include your first name and your city if you do send that text. our next call is from robin and merrill lynch. hello doctor gordon reed. why do you think the leaders of the confederacy did not take more seriously the economic failure of the republic of texas as a place with essentially cotton as a crop one crop economy? >> also some nations overseas were are reluctant to trade with them because they were so
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explicitly a slave holders republic. the united states constitution tries to hidee slavery, talking about health and service. the texas constitution is explicit about all of this. people are stubborn. and they were also, the available in evidence indicates there always people wanted texas to become a part of the united states. the plan was to leave mexico and hope for annexation by the united states and eventual statehood. for the people who want to just the republic there's one group of folks. some who thought it was part of the united states some of their problems would even out, they would get protection from mexico. they would join a larger economy. they would go for this part of the united states of america. lots of people that was the plan all along.
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the failures of the republic might not have been surprising to them. the ultimate goal was something else and that would be statehood. >> host: roberto is calling in from houston, texas. >> caller: i am a history teacher here in texas. i have two points to make doctor gordon reed. one, you kind of evaded the issue. critical race theory is going to be coming up this month in the state legislature. they want to forbid it. i think you should put on your joan of arc armor, come to austin and speak about the issue. now here would be the stumbling block you kind of glossed over it which i you thought too. when is it age-appropriate to bring up the issues, the true
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history? we have ate book that states forget the alamo come up with the true history. you keep mentioning the state constitution and this and that. that is much too high a level for gradeschool kids to be reading. i wish she would give it more thought. i don't want you to set now, i do think that is going to be a crucial question someone from the republicans here in the state would want to hear from you. >> i think we got the point, annette gordon reed. when is it age-appropriate to talk about race and history? is a writer who wrote a book about a biography ofy jefferson
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for people who were five -- seven years old. she talks about slavery. she talks about sally having. she does it in a way that is brilliant and completelyt age-appropriate. i don't see why you could not talkis about or raise the question of the texas republic in younger grades. i don't think there is a problem. not reading the constitution but there are ways to write anything. i havean seen a really good books for young people, for kids, the book i'm talking about now so if elementary school, middle school, has done a wonderful use biography of thomas jefferson that talks about all of a this stuff and age-appropriate way. i think there is a way to do it. as for coming down there to
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talk about all of this, there are plenty of people in texas who can hold down the fort. [laughter] on that matter. i o do know people gotten very, very aggressive about this. this is the citizens of texas to stand up against censorship , sent up against the idea you can't talk about the truth. i am of a mind kids are more ngunderstanding than we think theyut are. but i have seen so many examples of writing about these issues about race and about slavery in children's books. i think it is not the case that there are not ways to bring these subjects in a sensitiveiv and reasonable way for young kids. steve another text in a city or name, is renaming a school
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from jefferson middle school, like so many in the u.s. to jefferson -- hemmings middle school a solution that prompts theolol conversation rather than ripping away history. >> i do not see any reason to call the jefferson hemming, weaning schools after people because of their connection to either a particular community for their contribution to the nation. that's what you wouldn't name a school after jefferson. i would not say the jefferson hemmings school saw a issue with that. i do not have a problem with thero jefferson school so long as people talk about all aspects of jefferson's life. he is a person is such an effect on so many aspects of
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american history it's hard to move him to the side in a way. i am for, if you are named that, to keep that name if you want. on the other hand jefferson himself knows that belongs to living in every generation of people has a right to pick their heroes. for that represents your generation, represents your place better, he would say and i would say as well do that. i would not see it as imperative, but jefferson hemmings, i would not be opposed to it but i don't think it solves the problem as a slaveholder.
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>> caitlyn sacramento follows up onnt that. your thoughts of removal of statues of prominent veterans? >> guest: i've been on the record to say i don't see any reason why there should be statutes of confederates and publictu spaces. not just a racial question, people who fought against the united states of america who tried to destroy the united states of america. gettysburg is on everyone's mind at this point. vicksburg to as a matter of fact. battlefield is one thing, public squares it's an insult to union soldiers. you talk about reconciliation. we cannot make that choice for the people who were killed and were and died during that war.
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the values of the confederacy which are announced in its constitution in the corner stone speech that says essentially it says in fact that africans were meant to be enslaved the inferiority is the cornerstone of their society. there's nothing we can't get from them we can get better from other people without all the baggage that is there. and so confederates i don't have any problem with the removal of the statues. we will continue to learn about them. the buildings you get history books you will always talk about robert e lee and jefferson davis. their secession from the union and the attempt the
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destruction of the united states of america. we talk about those kinds of things. i would be for moving the statues from public places,. >> does it surprise you right across the river here inha arlington, virginia the jefferson davis highway until about a year ago? >> it doesn't surprise me. it was an attempt to reconcile a country that have been torn apart. but going too far, goingar too far with that. not thinking about the feelings when part of the citizenry that african americans who had been enslaved in the confederacy and unionists. in the north and the south
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remained loyal to the american nation. we talk about johnson but that was a good point about him, he believed in the american union. stu went back to kate in hasacramento's text, shut a follow-up question. who is your next planned a booked subject and might i suggest clara barton or lucy stone both are outspoken abolitionists. >> i have a couple of projects i had to interrupt to do juneteenth here that it ended pushing aside for the moment. i am doing a second volume of the hemmings family story. i am taking them from charlottesville after jefferson dies in 1826 and taking them up to the civil war. and dropping them off at the beginning of the 20th century the first couple decades of the 20th century,
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the great war. because things change after that. world war i, the modern world begins and the old world they were a part of, they are not a coherent subject matter to me anymore after that. maybe mention some people who continue on. basically ending there the hemmings family story. i'm finishing a jefferson reader on the race have been preparing for a while. i really want to knock this out pretty quickly. i basically have selected all of his writings on race. not just notes on the state of virginia but looking at his farm book, his memorandum book, his letters, to call out all of his discussions and commentsts about race i do a commentary about these kinds of things.ut
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that is what i am working on now. and my editor has been after me for a while to do book about texas, a big book about texas. this will take a career for me too do all three of these things. those are the next things in they're down the pike. we went johnson and new york, john yoo are on the air with annette gordon reed. john, before we begin turned on the volume on your tv. otherwise we get an echo. all right? >> caller: yes. >> host: john is gone let's try evelyn in philadelphia, evelyn you are on the air. >> caller: hello? >> host: hi evelyn. it's either i have a question or want to make two comments or my husband and i have been doing genealogy research all of our life.
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my husband his great-great-grandfather was killed by the union troops for stealing a horse which made national attention of the articles of the "new york times" my concern is, and what i am looking at is the fact that, we're both in her 80s and have a story to tell. we tilt every chance we get we sit the kids down and tell them a story about the ancestors. after dna testing my father was married, second time, married my mother the third time. he was in pittsburgh and got involved with the convict leasing system. my father was born in 1894. he was jailed. he was jailed for three months and the coal mine. i've been doing research on this. they talk about the 13th amendment and how that abolished slavery and it did not.
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because of that leasing system people put back into bondage and treated a worse. could you speak on that in terms why the city 13th amendment got rid of slavery but it did not. could you respond to that please? i appreciate it. good luck to have all of your books. i'm sitting here right now with juneteenth it is easy to read, not that many pages and i thank you for that. stuart evelyn, can you tell us a little bit about you and your husband? >> we have been married 65 years. we are very close toer our grandparents. when we were kids you ask elderly people questions. i said grandmom, were you a slave question she said no i was not a slave. i t used to have to wash the white women's feats. i said to my grandmom, you had to wash white women's feet? i did not have the wherewithal
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to ask for the ladies name. but i found out through the research and as i said we travel all over the world we do research on black people were we travel. but getting away from a story, i had a nephew that had dna test. this young lady reached out to him and they communicated back and forth, back and forth. she finally said i am looking for my grandfather. and she asked him these questions is that you need to talk to my aunt honey that is what she does. he said is it okay if i give her your telephone number? i said oh yes sure. she called, we talked and talked. finally she said i'm looking for my grandfather and i want you to help me. let me get my pencil and paper. i will e-mail it to you. so she did. [laughter] my husband was on the computer i said honey are you sitting down? he gave me the paper and i found out that this young lady,
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her grandfather -- that's how i got doing research but he was arrested for vagrancy. my father was not allowed to read or write. we have got stories to tell were trying to get a program together get our paperwork together so we can pass this on to our future generation so all thewhat we do time. we teach two senior centers, we go to schools and teach kids and then we do it if somebody says were looking for so-and-so, i just did some research for a lady who they are at very prominent in this area. i found out i'd nevernd done research for i found a slave who is related to someone who gave a narrative where they do enslave marriages. >> the wba? >> yes. >> host: evelyn, thank you for
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that extra background we appreciatete that. speech is an interesting point. it is through the 13th amendment, things that happened anden t prisons and the convict leasing system, but they were arrested for vagrancy. they try to enact laws that brought things as closely back to slavery as possible. we will talk about in the aftermath of the civil war down in the south. i think the principal difference is, the principal difference is, it allows people to be worked at the will ofmp others, the convict leasing system that even prisons now. but people are not sold. the difference is one of the things people celebrateds juneteenth, one of the things that was important to them was the end of the legal ability to sell people's children, to sell people's spouses, their brothers or sisters away from one another.
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slavery wasn't working without pay. but being labeled property,y, a chattel permit and enslave her diet and he had children the enslaved people could be separate amongst these children who could live in different places and people could be separated from their families. estate sales, sales for money just whatever. those kind of actions were traumatizing to enslaved people. at the end of slavery one of the first things people do havings their marriages was to look for relatives, and go around and try to find myy mother, my kids, my sister, my brother, i really do think one of the reasons juneteenth has become one of the aspects that's kept alive for 156 years it is w the family holida.
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people come together they gathered together as families. they go through airports in the summer you'll see black people walking around garish t-shirts on, the reed family union the shop family reunion. this notion of gathering people together i am convinced grows out of the a trauma and the desire to keep people together for hundreds of years, and slavery people could be separated. the phrase and never to be seen again. you see w that a lot never to be seen again. just imagine that we lose our relatives to death sometimes estrangement. not someone coming in and saying we need money so your three children we are going to sell them to louisiana orr whatever.
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that kind of thing left a mark. people have been trying to regroup from that ever since. >> host: and that, gordon read, appears her doctor joe pierce prominent retired couple in san antonio, i've met them several times at the texas book festival and austin. mrs. pierce e-mailed me separately to say the texas t state history museum has abruptly canceled the speech by the authors of b the new book on the alamo. i don't if you are familiar with that book. texas is trying to keep the truth from competing with myth. this is crazy and related to spent unsent censorship. i wanted to acknowledge that e-mail. >> i have heard about that situation. it's what they call the streisand effect.
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i think when you draw attention to thingshi like this, it will probably make people go out andk read the book even more. people do not like to have ideas and things kept from them. but that is unfortunate situation from the things i've actually read about it. i have not read the book yet, that should be on my night stand next break. >> we'll be on the book festival circuit this fall? >> i think so. i am supposed to be on the book circuit festival this fall but i am hoping to be able to be there in person. virtual things are nice but it's also nice to be out and meet people. you know what those atmospheres are like it's a lot of fun. >> texas is in person this year. >> neville in cleveland, ohio go ahead. >> my question is related to
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sally hemmings. we may know the name sally hemmings but do we. know the story? what i miss is a visual image, a depiction of sally hemmings. you see from time to time descriptions that she was mighty white. she had long straight hair down her head that was three-quarter european and a quarterea african. but i don't see many sketches. i don't see many images. i don't see many pictures which depict sally fleming.
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conductor read say something about that for mee please? >> thank you neville. we do not have any depictions of her. we have imagined ideas of what she looks like they have reproductions of her. we do not have any images of jefferson's wife. there may be a silhouette a couple silhouettes of her. strangely enough she didn't have portraits or the portraits were destroyed. she apparently did not sit for a portrait as a married woman which people of that class would have done. they are only descriptions of her. this is an odd thing these two sisters completely different places in the hierarchy. neither of them do we have
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visual images of. you would expect to have one of maybe not sally hemmings. the first image is of her grandchildren that we have. we do not have portraits of martha or sally. >> this is a text from and page a high school social studies teacher at hamilton high school. doctor reed my tenth grade colleague and i have a sign on juneteenth as a summer reading assignment for our tenth grade honor students and making the decision regarding this a year's assigned book we had conversations with students, mostly white who are involved with the local human rights committee a few students expressed to us they felt strongly that book's assigned about race, gender, or identity should only be assigned with authors who assign as part of the
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committee they write about it as a teacher i respect and understand with the students are coming from. i disagree in part with their arguments. i want to explore this argument further this summer and wonder about your thoughts on this belief. >> a lot to digest there. >> the idea is students only want books by people who are writing about a community from which they come from. they don'ts want books from white people about black people. >> host: i think that is where we are headed here. >> guest: these are young people. i do not agree with that. some of the best books about slavery for example, racially based slavery in the united states have been by white authors. but i understand their desire to use a people who are writing about personal issues are part of the community.
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juneteenth is a history book but as a memoir as well. to talk about growing up as a black person in texas in general i can understand why, or more personal things why they would want the to be a member of the community. if you are talk about straight history, white authors write about black people. i mentioned david blythe book i write about thomas jefferson. that is more personal, and understand why they would. a number people call me doctor gordon read part i am not a doctor. i am fortunately at a point in history in that i do not have a phd i did think back when i wrote my book and then i got
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into the history department. i am just professor gordon read or miss gordon reed or annette depending upon how well you know y me. >> the next call for annette gordon reedd is from martha in maine, go ahead martha. >> caller: oh hi, peter. i missed part of the program so i hope i am not repeating a question from some one else from professor gordon read. i am a retired maryland public school teacher. i am very upset about the controversial dickstein 19 project and the pulitzer organization offering $5000 to underpaid school teachers to teach whatever that is supposed to be. i'm quite upset about it and would like her of her opinion please.
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>> guest: end of this is a controversial subject i don't know anything about that program that she isut referring to, i think it is a point of discussion. 1619 project from what i have read is a number of essays. it's not just one essay. the lead essay is what called cause problems for number of people and peopleso thought is problematic for one reason or another. i think it should be the stuff. i think there are other parts oft it that i think will be very illuminating to students and could be useful there are opposing viewpoints that could be discussed as well. as we were talking before
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forget the alamo and other instances. i don't think the censoring things or stopping things is the way to go. if it is out there, it is in the public eye. students should be made aware of those kinds of things and to discuss it. there are points you think problematic, you can raise those. you can bring opposing views, i think it's much better to discuss things d and hide. that's the bottom line iot have on this. >> host: were going to close with this text, high annette sremember me? david hooper conway hyatt 1977. i just textt mark evans to say you were on. question what have you seen yourur mural on the square? what do you think, love your work? >> thank you this is amazing.
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they were very good friends. yes, i've seen the mural, i've seen the bus. i've also learned they're going to name a school after me and my hometown would show shoot some of the changes that havere taken place over the years. i am all for it, people have been very kind and very supportive of me. so he wouldn't give us very quickly we have 30 seconds left, give us a history of this mural, what happened? >> guest: some admirers and my mother's friends got them to put a mural up in my hometown i put up a bust of me as well. i went down for the unveiling of the best. it was wonderful i wish my parents were there to see all of this. we went which school is going to be named after you do you know? >> guest: it's an elementary school there building opened in august of 2022. >> host: annette gordon read the often ask our authors
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their favorite books at annette gordon reed sent us this two by james baldwin the devil finds work, notes of a native said, hg wells experiment autobiography, by octavia beutler the little prince in a single man by christopher. currently reading ato book called the hidden history of women led slavery revolt by rebecca hall. the cruelty is the point but adam in the paper of thomas jefferson surprise it is another book she's currently reading. annette gordon reed is been her guest for the past two hours. we very much appreciate your time. >> guest: thank you for inviting me. >> weekends on c-span2 bring you the best in american history and nonfiction books. saturday on american history tv at 9:00 a.m. eastern james baker reflects the leadership his career serving as secretary of state for george h.w. bush and ronald reagan
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white house chief of staff and secretary-treasurer. 10:00 a.m. eastern historian and best-selling author looks at how society in today's world. a book tv is leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books will feature author discussions for freedom a fast and annual libertarian gathering including businessmen's gary cooper, associate professor education policy kerri mcdonald and think tank scholar inventor at 10:00 p.m. eastern on after words. robin viento discusses her book, how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm, she is interviewed by author and professor of african studies at princeton university. watch american history and book tv every weekend on c-span2. find a full schedule on your program guide@c-span.org.
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>> now, on book tvs afterward program, robin d'angelo looks at how well-intentioned white people can inadvertently called racial harm through a culture of niceness but she's interviewed author and princeton university professor of african-american studies. after words the weekly interview program with the relevant guest house and drink top nonfiction authors about their latest work. >> i am so delighted to have this opportunity to sit down and talkn with you. if i may call you robin it's so exciting. >> guest: thank you so much than honor. >> it seems like a basic question. it is a moment in the book were you were actually dealing with the kind of tension between class and race. and you told your story. i thought it really

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