tv After Words Lizzie Johnson Paradise CSPAN November 11, 2021 9:59pm-10:59pm EST
on the altar interview program "after words" lizzie johnson looks at the root cause of california's 2018 campfire the deadliest u.s. wildfire in a century and is interviewed by. baker society of american fork mr. ceo. "after words" is a program with relevant guest posts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. >> host: thank you for joining us about u this book. ice, one town struggle to survive in american wildfire. grateful for the opportunity to speak with you and in some ways on behalf of my thousand plus members and professionals to get some of your insight because i have to say i've really enjoyed
years, i was looking for change. i move the to general assignment desk. i was there when wildfires were getting bad. we had wine country fire in 2017, that stock state and the nation. then acceleration just continued where every summer seemed that records were being topped and fires bigger. by the time campfire rolled around in 2018, i had been covering fires for a while, i spent a lot of time in the town of paradise, before the fire was burning and afterwards. >> wow. that is quite the journey. i can imagine city hall could be its own time of fire. in professional forestry and
neutral resource, such a a close community, very small degree of separation related to fighting fire. a liten known -- little known fun fact. we have a connection.. >> i was a district ranger. i oversaw the man-made forest in central nebraska. located with the nursery as well. i had a lot of fun adventures managing a very interesting small piece of public land in nebraska. >> so wild to hear, i feel when i tell people i'm from nebraska, they say, i think a flew over it one time. or drive to it you drive a tractor it school, cool you used to work there too.
>> i know a little bit about dorothy lynch . >> you talk about your journey, i wanted to give you kudos around your use and what i thought was technology knowledge around forestry and wild land firefighting into your story telling, it was profound for me, one of those moments, i was proud, this impressive, you know the terms, but you use them in a way where i pick up on that. the person who is not a professional in natural resources it made sense to them. a great piece for me. moves football field every second. and that is used as that anecdote went firefighting. i wanted to understand a
little bit more about howso you developed that technical expertise about how fire management works. >> as a journalist, i view so much of my job as translating things, helping people s understand technical concepts they don't otherwise, i think in particular with politics for a while, people understand that the decisions how they are made, impact their lives, later with firefighting, i think a lot of people don't know understand all -- understand all to goes into it. when i started covering wildfires, i did not understand how often the blazes are contained by digging dirt patches and starving fire fair. i went to a fire academy. in a county north of san francisco. i learned about structural
firefighting, went through wild land firefighting academy, they had me on an engine, and lit a field on fire, i had to chase it down, and put it out, it helped me know how hard they work, how heavy the gear is andd the tools in my hands, understanding and terminology. this is what it means and this is what it looks like. >> excellent. that is emercy yourself in world of wildfire fighting. i was sure it was quite the experience. with that, was there anything, that really resonated with you in the training or some terminologies, something that i would have never thought this is a name or this has a name? >> mm-hmm. i think to me it was the thing that stuck with me,
less terminology, more the lived experience of the firefighters, every summer it felt that i heard fire chief sayik over and over, this is the "new normal." this is the "new normal" to the point where. that sense of "new normal" was lost meaning all together. in the firefighting academy they spent a lot of time talking about the fact that new recruits had to deal with emotional experiences that were hard and how you carry those with you. a situationin where you can't put the fire out, and you can't save homes, it comes down to saving lives. realizing that you know way that firefighter was taught, in that regard changed. because the landscape changed. they were seeing more and more of these fires that were totally uncontainable and bigger than what they could do anything. really stuck with me. the conversations, what do you do when you are a
firefighter and you can't fight the fire. >> a great point. i notice of some that in your book. related to feeling of losing, for firefighters, the pride they take in being able to stop a fire or save someone's home. and inme essence when you lose in a firefighting there is safety and property at stake. the emotional toll, that we don't talk about much, is more and more of a conversation, not only is it community they are trying to protect often times they may actually live in those communities and try to fight a fire while their home is being evacuated and their petses or animals or families have to be taken somewhere else. there is a growing challenge that i know normal conversations are had about that. thank you for sharing that. next thought i had, was the
concept of how like you mentioned translator, an important piece as i speak with my members and other professionals in this sector, oftenmb times i speak to them about concept of being willing to engage you consumeties in a way -- communities in a way that is related to value outdoors and the land, versus jumping to a technical reason for what happened or what will happen. have you seen or do you think that there are other barriers around that technical very technical aspect of what we're trying to convoy to public about live fires and what people need to do to get ahead of them prior to the fire happening there -- barriers in the language or from
professionals in your perspective? i know i jokingly say, i got into forestry so i didn't have to talk with people, i could just hang out with trees, but now i talk to a lot of people about the trees, your thoughts on that concept of what are some barriers to this translation. the communication. >> i think people don't understand firefighting. it is hard to wrap their heads around. the space that you know civilians and first responders occupy together is becoming broader because these disasters are gettinger worse, where increasingly firefighters are not just putting out fires but they have to educate them 52 people of what to to and how to prepare, that say testify job. there is a knowledge gap. if you are a firefighter and you have seen the really bad fires summer after summer,
you understand and know what can it is to be lost. it is difficult to communicate it is a serious threat, i think there is cognitive dissidents there. you know your past experience, was, if you are okay, maybe you are well, maybe i don't have to take this seriously, i know the chief is telling me to pack by go back, but i should be okay. a tough task for the firefighters. and you know first responders to have to do is inform people ahead and how to best prepare themselves for the disasters. people don't don't always understand why they need be prepared. >> a great point. being reactive. fires come you know, seasons
in some cases in communities, saying look we made it. almost like an inventsbility. i am from florida, it is hurricanes, the same thing, one passed over it is fine, there is a big challenge for first responders and communities. i think also policymakers. one of those things that as we look at policies, and overall implications of those policies from a national and local level, thelo ability to engage in policy expressions that are helpfuln and supportive of what realities we're faced with right now, you may have not heard -- there is more attention paid where do you see. opportunities around impact of these fires. and mitigations of the fires
in policy arena, and discussions happening now. with the trillion trees act and so many other things discussed in forestry. >> making sure we're all having the same conversation, it is difficult to enact change. be proactive versus reactive. people are not on the same page in the conversation of what the fires are like. they don't see ita much as a threat as people in forestry do or firefighter do. particularly because funding is pardon, public support is hard. i think that is theic biggest thing right now. like what is the conversation that we're having, we need to take this seriously, because these fires are getting worse yeari
after year. >> like you mentioned, everyone has a similar or closely same conversation -- possible. it makes me think about. lack of tools in the tool box. there are things we try to do ahead of the game. faif released a national position statement on promoting use of prescibed fire. not necessarily as strongly adopted in west ern 78s as eastern u.s. -- western states as it is? eastern u.s. your thoughts on a pro active treatment. would help with the visual and with a community affected by a large fire, the visceral response of
smoke in the air but knowing it is inferntional and -- intentional and for the greater good. > this reminds me of something that happened last summer in butte county, where the town of paradise was. it is getting hit against this year by the dixie fire. last summer, lightning strikes ignited a massive blaze, the north complex fire that ran through a couple small communities near paradise, they were areas that local fire city council realized needed help they trying to secure grants it took a long time to get community onboard confidentnt funding for that -- onboard then the funding for that, it was a short while before the fire they did get the money. it is so hard to know, if that would have changed anything. the fate of those places? i know there were a lot of
people that were frustrated when the fires rolled through, they were so close, and maybe theref was something we could have done to lower the intensity of the b fires, like what you were speaking to, it can be hard to convince people the important. >> thatt is challenging thing to hear. that close. many conversations i had in my career with fire manages, has been looking at communities like paradise. and those landscapes, saying it is not a matter of if but when. to put community and firefighters in best place to be successful is a key component, you just never know, it is a race against time a lot of times.
step down that policy -- i really wasas curious to your thoughts on not so much policy but maybe strategy. as you were talking about in the book around, pacific gas and electric. whole conversation that were happening around you know deenergizing the lines leading up to the wind event. there was a lot of push back, strong responses from people, don't do this, if you do this, the amount of time it takes to reenergize the lines -- your point about difficulty of getting ahead of these things with communities realizing we have utility corridors that can be impactful. but, you know with a community, i had to face the
fire or something of that nature, caused by top down power lines. it is hard to convince them it is worth deenergizing the lines, i wonder as did you interviews and research, how did that come together? do you think in is anything that could help convey that message to a community. the winds. >> i kept finding myself nodding when you were talking, you were hitting so man great points. -- many great points, the situation we found ourselves in, particularly as you know climate changes worsens and the environment we're on is different from 10 years ago, you have this vulnerable electrical infrastructure that goes right across fire prone land, that is super dry.
i think that people understand more now that it is really important to try to problem solve in the ways that isin possible. for pacific gas and electric company, largest power provider in california, that has meant turning off the power, this is the best tool in the tool box that we radio right now. there -- that we have right now, there are serious issues with that, people who are medically vulnerable, and people can't charge their phones, i get it. but we have seen summer after summer headlines of you know pg&e starting another fire it seems like we have not had a year, as long as i can remember for past 5 years, where it has not happened. i think that issue is that is that people mostly see inconvenience. it is hard to actually see
the trade off of that. right? you can't just say, this is the fire that would have started. this fire would have burned down this town. or this fire would have burned through the community, it burned through this manyne homes. there is no tangible thing to pullback and say this is what we prevented. right? i think people are left with that taste in their mouths of you know, another week without power, no air-conditioning in our homes, even if you intellectually know there is a point to that, emotionally your experience of being inconvenienced that is hard to over come. it is the reality we're living in now, it comes back to what i said earlier about making sure we have same conversation and understanding that the fires are not going away, we're living with you know, our legacies of how we manage
forest and how we've approached climate change and where we built homes and. now we'reth left with really hard choices. and sometimes they mean being inconvenienced. >> that is a -- those are points. really important points. you know getting the developed environment with natural environment, that our reality. it has been but it impacts us significantly. we have to be mindful. my next question, i lead right into it. you mentioned during some town hall meetings that county sheriff had to engage and ask difficult questions, part of that referenced challenge related to pg&e. but also you know. mismanagement of the forest.
policycy related to go output the fire out keep it as small as possible. i'll be honest, it was one ofto those moments in reading the book, where i took a step back, and said mismanagement of the forest by the forest service, no thing, but it was good to have that point. we all have a role in a stake and how we learn to management and particular what advice is given, how we operate through that, there is an important balance of how he manage forest given will present of people and presence of our infrastructure. i learned to thank you for putting that piece in there. i was just like, i was taken aback, but it was a key point. not b too much that something that we went move past. but youou just mentioned it is
evolution. what is evolution of our forest management as our communities continue to grow into wilder spaces? i wanted to get to this place around -- back to our piece around how we manage to lead up and after. they may have been part of conversations after the campfire in paradise. the conversations about tree removal. some people -- how do you address trees that are have died during the fire. but also, projection. that projection of what to come. of trees that will likely not make it and impact homes or roads or whatever it may be after the fact. i was wondering if you have
any conversations where community members where there was some of that response already happening, concerns about what it would look like and how trying to make these areas safe for them, where we will impact the same -- that caused them to move from where they were. >> so, you have to remember that people loved paradise because of where it was at. it was a town of 26,000 people, up in the foothills. big beautiful canyons on both sides. people talked about the towering pines and you could tell it was first day of summer because the air smelled like you know, warm sap and how at christmas it was covered with snow, people loved those trees. i think after the fire, one of thek big things was you know what do you do with all of these trees that gave the town a identity. it is on the town crest.
but so membership of those trees -- so many of those trees died. the decision was emblematic and also larger conversations about how we're living on the landscape.os it changes, when you have people living in in and you have homes in there forest riy they would say, that tree is going to fall over, but we would really not want it to fall on a house or a person. and as much as you love it it has to come down. and another thing is how to you pay for, that paradise a very working class community, they joked pup populous was either
nearly dead or newlywed. not an extremely privileges demographic with a lot of expendable income to spend on cutting town the trees on their property. how do you have those conversations, at a certain point choice feels like a privilege, and also your identity, you might understand, the safe thing to do it is emotionally hard who you lost everything. to look at trees, that were outside your window, your entire life, and they have to go. i think that makes it hard when you having a combination of a technical conversation of science, and emotional convecon-- conversation.
>> that resonates so much. when you discussed the school bus going down rural road, and a teacher said, i thought that paradise was a rainforest andai the bus driver says this is fuel. it is that culmination of -- there is nothing to push you on -- to that place, challenge is remembering. last thing, on policy side. you mention challenges of the evacuation and everythingng from originally a four-lane highway that was
brought town to two. and trying to slow traffic in town from stand point of people being safer, in the sense of evacuation it was massive congestion. were trying to run. and exercises, having a small population of the community come out to participate in those exercises. if your conversations with the townex manager to communityas members, what were some of those thoughts, was there reflection on what it was like to have ignored some of the concerns that were brought forward by cal-fire and others related to somethingfi happens we needha to safely evacuate. >> mm-hmm. you know, i feel like a broken record, i keep come back to we need to have the sameep conversation in nature that we're on the same page. it is important to note that paradise is a town that was pretty well prepared.
as far as towns goes, they thought about an evacuation plan, they tried to practice it but people in town, you know thought it was more of an inconvenience. not unlike anything about how annoyed you would feel if you had to practice an evacuation from our office building, it is human nature to assume this is just an inconvenience, we will never it. to use that is where planners need to dig in. the planning documents, that i read firefighter officials called it paradise problem. the turn town was tucked between two geological chimneys that would carry fire right up, there were few evacuation routes, they knew people would be trapped if a major fire would roll through, they knew it was possible, but like planning
for the 100 year flood. that is something that those in town hall were grappling where. how do you balance the concerns of your constituents making town a beautiful safe place to live. and understanding that you had a limited amount of money coming in, because it was a more i'm -- i'm impoverished community, they did that while trying to understand how much do you plan for the 100 year fire. i think there were decades of decision makes that went into play, people were planning for the fires, they have knowned in the past. those fires never burned all the way through town, they were always stopped with that came a false sense of security, there were decisions they could have made that would have i guess --ec impossible to know without looking in a
crystal ball. i think paradise is just so emblematic of all these places across california and the west of how you keep people safe, but how do you make the hard decisions wherep calculus is changing, right? now you can't just assume your town will be safe next time because we see fires that seem unfathomable compared to a decade ago, you have to start putting money in places you done think you would and make hard decisions of how are we getting peep out -- people out that 100 year fire is something like a lot more frequent than you would think. >> is it every day safety or 100 year safety, but now we're moving to -- as far as
that question. that takes a rewiring of how you look at grand scheme of things. i think that you mentioned conversation around infrastructure legislation with the administration emphasisn on infrastructure. and forests have been included in some of the bills.ructure they are just as important as bridges, and roads and opportunities it creates for infusion of dollars into community like paralyze. i would love your thoughts on that, we're now as a nation willing to see forests almost in same light as roads and bridges, that second citing for me. -- that is exciting for me. it is my profession. but it is significant to start looking at forests in
that way. and role they play in the communities. >> mm-hmm. yeah, i think that you know infrastructure on its own is not sexy to a lot of people, they don't think about it. i think forest in particular, people think less about it they think of a crumbling bridge. and i think having the conversations iss important it could changenv the outcome of the fate of towns like paradise. in town spending a lot of time thinking about buying up empty lots near parks to keep that as a fire break area, in case a fire rolls throughh town. but, money for that and that is not something that the communities always have. infrastructure could help with that and how can we build and make places safer
and where should we be putting communities in theni future, i don't think that those were conversations happening as much a couple of decades ago, now people are talking about it more. that is encouraging to know that. >> i had a little bit -- does that make you a little bit more hopeful, more communities like paradise and others that are small rural communities in mountains that policymakers of national level are starting to see and fi it tie it program around importance of healthy forests. more hope given the catastrophic impacts of the fire like a campfire and the others. >>he yeah. you know, it does give me home that people are talking about solutions. i think for a long time i felt very doom and gloom. so much of my job is holding a mirror up to the problem
to get people to pay attention. when i started covering fires there were very few people that covered it long-term and show ways that community really struggled, it was really hard to keep covering that same story line over and over with there never a break in the narrative, and never a solution. it does give me hope, it is encouraging, to think maybe this is not something we have to relive every year for eternity. if we have people making decisions we're trying to figure it out. >> i think you mind yourself in unique company as finding hope in politics in 2021. congratulations on that. >> what a way to say it, yeah. >> y you know, find the bright side. one thing i wanted to follow-up with you on,
around your book in and of itself. you can tell me about your method of writing the book. you tied in the covering stories, a bit of doom and gloom. and so, step away from journalingism to wrote a book about a story, and delve into how you wove together the different characters, i know they are people, people with very unique stories, they tied to this fire in the community of paradise, your thoughts of making -- to write a book about this. i am sure in the head space of what you have seen over and over again. >> mm-hmm. i ended up writing the book, his reported so much that i realize it could not be in a newspaper any more, i said
my editor will be really mad at me, it would be the entire newspaper. and there is a sense of you know wanting to create something more lasting that would help people understand what was happening in california. particularly because you know every time that i would versus the east coaster on go -- versus visit east coast, or visit my family in midwest, there is a sense of ignorance, people not understanding, oh, yeah, california can burning again, that rubs me the wrong way, because that smoke that people thought was so inconvenient was people's lives, and not just an inconvenience, if i could help people understand what the fires feel like, in the impact they have. and what it means for the rest of us, that is climate change, and you know not something that is 10 years down the road, we're living
with it. it is right now with ferocity and violence of the fires. in writing the book, i say that like learned as much as i can about fire and electric grid. i pride myself on getting to know the people and to understand what their lives were like and hard decisions they had to make when the fire rolled into town and decisions to make to figure out if they could rebuild their lives, how do you survive a fire like that? i did allir that reporting i got obsessed about it, i listened to every 911 call that came in. that morning. read thousands of pages of court documents, chronically pg&e provision.
read as much as i could about firefighting, went into archives. andd sacramento, and san francisco and butte county, learn how paradise came to be, from there it was writing in a way where you know, you are learning about team in the town but also getting also learning about forestry management and how we're building in the state and fire risks and about what we can expect next. like, balancing it just so where you are learning as you get really interested in the people a lives. >> i think you achieved your goal. it resonated with me as someone who worked in this field for many years. yourel research you crossed some tribal knowledge. could you share a little bit about what you discovered there. as you roll that to the book, almost like a feeling
you really -- had it to be in the book. on this kind of a story of oral history about the impacts of fires and the respect for land and the rebirth of a community following all that. i'm really curious to hear more aboutwi that piece of the book. >> so, in early 2019, it was a few months after the campfire hit. i decided to go on a tour with the leader of the butte county fire city council. she started doing these tours to show people what it looked like after the fire. and you know would take politicians, and civilians, it was very heart wrenching way where she was trying to change people's opinions getting them to understand. on this tour there remember two members of concow tribe. we're standing on the plateau overlooking the
community of concow. and everything under us is burnt to a crisp, they told us a story about two people in their community and how they had lived through this massive wildfire. that was similar to the campfire. and how they had to move away. and they came back, and saw their home was greener and healthier, but it changed their lives. there was something about that, you know hearing it, i just like, how come we have not heard about this as much in our history books, how much this is first time i am hearing about this legend, and i have been doing all that research t in archives. i knew it needed to bed in the -- needed to be in book, offered an, coof fact that fires happen over and overes they are 6
-- cyclical, they hit the same places over and over, knowledge. fire is an evil thing. i think we still see remnants of that legacy. big fires, people see it as a bad thing, it not nearly a bad thing, fire is a healthy part of the environment, something to learn from indigenous knowledge, how they used fire as a tool. i wanted to weave that through the story to help people's understand. the fire management that we don't hear about. and the way that we view fire. should be much more nuanced than what they are. >> thank you for that. that is really inciteful.
a lot of thought. and -- insight full, and a lot of thought, we create the space of those conversations from stand point of meetings and discussions and being open minded for those discussions, how various tribes have managed land over the many years prior to you know, settlement. and what that means, and think through that as we talk about this discussion, concept of living as close to in harmony with nature as possible with infrastructure that we put in place, what that means. some people in your book, one person, several characters, several people stood out. one in particular, electric beth an merge dispatcher,
you. mentioned she had to be tough and determined. around challenges that women face in fighting fires, knowing that there is more women in fires effort to increase that opportunity with the shortage of firefighters especially,sp there are o challenges in. do you want to add additional comments on that. >> i think it takes a long time to change culture. that is something that beth mentioned that she felt she had to sound tougher than her colleagues, she realized shes would notal wag always be tougher but she could be smarter. i went through my firefighter training, that was just two weeks of my life, i one of three women
in the class of 50, im at one point we would go on big runs together, one of the women was like, i feel a that i have to try -- try twice as hard to be taken havas seriously as these guys, that was in 2019. something that women are still consenting. it is a very male dominated field, you go to the wildfires most of the crews will be mostly men, maybe a few women. but i think that is something that could improvement we need more representation. >> very much so. from stand point of actually fighting fires and being the awareness of 3er sep perception that anyone can step in roles and be successful. that is one ofhe those key pieces. there were a few comments where folks had either ended
up with fire fighters, -- something else or they fought fire for summer and they they fell in love with it that was their career. any other insights related to those discussions, how firefighting kind of you know looks like a falling into it. not aware of. it heals something inside of you, as theme around your book almost of fight, flight or freeze, a moment for firefighters, that calling to fight gain something to save property, and save lives. to help. i just was curious about some of your thoughts and how they were drawn into the profession through generations or random chance. >> yeah, you know so many
firefighters that i talked to, i was just struck by how much of helpers they were, they deeply wanted to help others, with thatp and fact that you know they found their way to the career, you could be outside. and you could work with your hands and meet people, and feel you were towing something in a way -- you were doing something in a way that maybe you could not in career you thought you were setting out to pursue, so many people that i talked with that were going to universities, to study nothing or be something else . but they worked as a firefighter in the summer, then realized it was something they really enjoyed and they never stopped doing it. i have always enjoyed talking with firefighters, they honestly want to help. i had come from covering
politicians who did not want to help you understand what they are doing. >> thank you, you mentioned that fires hit the same places, impacts are exponentially impactful in the communities. toan be concerned about your safety in that way. so, i was really curious about you know your thoughts on three same question but 3 different y communities. and really looking forward to getting your thoughts on these. given that we having whichs around policy, around changes climate, and around those impacts the of
forests. opportunities for us to inimprove the condition of our forest and communities in a broad sense. j >> mm-hmm. >> people always ask me for answers, i wish i had them. as a journalist so much of what i do is holding a mirror up to problems. but defined in my report -- i found in my reporting that we have reckon with our new reality, and understanding that we have to change the way we make decisions and figuring out where we put money, for example in paradise so many homes were around for decades, i think something like 9 out of 10 homes were built before 1990. those were not homes that had been built in a fire-safe away, a state legislation that passed mandate homes build after a certain date be constructed in a fire safeway. that did not predate
anything thattic -- that existed before, i heard that a lot in paradise, people saying, i wish evening done more to build defensible space around my home or change my roof, i didn't have the money, there was no m funding from the state to retrofit the home. having conversations about, the places that already exist, what can we do to make them safer? where does that money come from. >> and the fires are notab just going away next year. with that, we need to think really critically about why we're build news communities, it is a safe idea to build you know a luxury apartment building on top of a cliff in san diego county on a piece of land in wild and urban interface. realize being need to start change our
decision making. having conversations about that. and asking ourselves, up are we planning for the worse case? knowingng that the iting probably happen at some point, what could we do differently to prevent tragedies from happening again. >> a great point. any advice you would share with foresters and firefighters. >> any advice? i think you know the thing that i come back to time again is that gap between the knowledge you have as a forest or firefighter, and knowledge that normal people have about the risk. so, when you talk with someone, they might not internalize or remember everything you tell them, purpose to important to pick one thing and make sure
people know that, that is have a plan. have a go bag. right. scare people just a little bit, you need to know what you are going to do if this happens, all that time you spend scrolling through facebook, figuring out whether you should evacuate or not. is time that could save your life. helping people understand that the risk is there, they need to be able to help themselves. >> on that little bit. what advice would you give policymakers. >> a lot of advice today. >> well, you have done a lot of studying and research. a time to wow us with your knowledge. >> for policymakers, i think again to remember that sometimes the past decisions are right. if it saves people's lives.
it is hard to balance what constituents need in terms ofd a safe community, a beautiful community, sometimes it is not in the best interest. narrowing a road knowing it could have a impact on kill people. and how we're building and where we're building, i athink often there is a sense of separation, they don't want to trample on people's well being and their right to live and build their homes in the way they want, they thinkha we owe something to each other to be safe, build safely and that starts with what happens at the capitol. >> very much so, last but of advice. what would you share with community members?
>> i think for them, again understanding that the calculus has changed. you cannot just assume you you will be safe. the fire will not come to your community, even if it has skirted it so many times in the past. i have covered so many of these fires where people think they have time, they think they will be safe. and it is heartbreaking to hear those phone calls and they are people that counted on fatality list, realizing that risk is real, you don't want to end up like, that you don't want to put other people in a situation where they risk their lives to save you or the volunteers that went in with search and rescue dogs to pull the remains out of the rubble, you o have to have a plan for yourself, you can't just assume s someone will come safe you.
>> a great point, thank you for your great advice, and thank you for an amazing book. telling my friends in fire world about it. we a really powerful job of incorporating stories of community members and firefighters into something that is hits on all points we need to think about. and that hopefully will help continue to move us forward in a positive direction around taking care of communities and our forests. which are important. thank you for your time. i really enjoyed having a chance to have a conversation with you, great toou run into another nebraskan. >> great to talk about something other than corn, cows and huskers. >> i was thinking when is football coming.