the fundamentalist magazine i thought that couldn't be true. i looked back at records and that was the case. this already set fundamentalists on edge, believing there's something weird going on here that's linking roosevelt to the anti-christ. after the election, they began to view roosevelt in the same night as other totalitarian leaders. and talking to my student about this, roosevelt has become such a revered person in american history mostly because of world war ii, that americans don't realize how much those who hated roosevelt in the '30s despised him, just couldn't stand him. >> watch this program and thousands more at c-span.org/history. >> now, please join me welcoming a co-host from the new england society american ancestors. the red of education and on-line programs that they have. welcome. >> thank you, kristin.

i'm honored to be here and to welcome nhgs members and friends to this program. we're excited to be partnering with the boston public library once again and as kristin minced, mentioned i'm the director of programs at american ancestors and the genealogical and historical society. the oldest and largest nonprofit genealogical society in the world. we were founded in 1845 and helped people of all backgrounds explore their past and understand their family's unique place in history. you can learn more about our resources, experts, education programs and our eight-story research center in boston. at our award winning at ancestors.org. as one of those william bradford seminal work, we're

excited to here from two doctors, a new transcription of the original manuscript with incorporations of discovery of recent information and a story about the pilgrims and the mayflower, and to purchase the copy of the newly published edition. mayflower, american ancestors.org. it's now my pleasure to introduce our moderator for the event, the executive editor of the works jonathan edwards and the archives at yale university. the doctor is a member of the research faculty at yale devicinity school and of the free state of south africa. he offers seminars in early

american and early modern history. as well as reading courses in american history. he's incorporated articles in the new england quarterly and the massachusetts historical review among others. he has also edited or co-edited several works, too many to name here on the sermons of jonathan edwards and other colonial preachers. so join me in welcoming the doctor. >> thank you very much. it's my pleasure to introduce frank bremer, who i've known for quite some time. he think i first met you, frank, when you did one of our wonderful conferences at millersville back in 1991. if you can remember that far away. i was a young graduate student and these conferences offered the opportunity for up and coming people like myself to

rub shoulders with, you know, the giants on the earth like yourself and others and to get the proper introduction to field the puritan studies. i remember one session in particular where we tried to define puritanism, and while we came up with various things, in the end we couldn't do it and we decided that when we knew a puritan when we saw one. and that was about as close as we could get. the puritans considered it the height of bad manners to praise someone to their face, but where frank bremer is concerned, i can't help, but do that, because he's really and sincerely one of this country's and indeed, one of the world's most distinguished historians of puritanism and american religious history. he has a lengthy list of

service, not just to publications, but of service. it's really important, the other part of the scholar's life. given to teaching and mentoring and organizing those conferences that i mentioned and other service on various boards and committees. so he's really been real shaper of the field. he's published many books and articles on a wide range of topics, textbooks, monograves, and john winthrop whose papers he edited at the society. he's a force behind new england beginnings we'll hear about in the course of his presentation. and of course, newly upcoming observations on 400th anniversary of the founding of

massachusetts colony, colonized town it seemed appropriate to begin with plymouth and with this new addition of the bradford plymouth plantation that you've heard frank and i and others mention, teamed up and did this very enjoyable and i hope significant and helpful project. along with that, authored a new book, "one small candle", the puritans and the beginning of new england. and i hope you check to out. and professor bremer will talk to us on william bradford and plymouth, the view from 400 years. so, frank, please. >> thank you very much. thank you very much, ken. and everyone who was out there and joining us for this.

i hope we have enough time to answer all of your questions at the end, but if there are some of your questions that don't get answered, please feel free to e-mail me, francis.bremer at millersville university. at millersville.edu, i should say. in the fall of 2016, a group of individuals representing historical organizations in the commonwealth and other states met in the reading room to form a partnership called new england beginnings. this was a group coming together to make plans for the 400th anniversary of the settlement at plymouth. the goal was to educate americans about the cultures, plural, that shaped early new

england. we were and are determined to find ways to commemorate those cultures. europeans, natives, africans, rather than to follow tradition and merely celebrate one culture. that of the pilgrim fathers. the focus on education proved to have anticipated benefits. there were large gatherings much tourists had proved impossible in this time of pandemic. many educational programs have been able to be held. the publication of books has continued on pace, and lectures such as this one and even conferences have gone on-line. our determination to focus on multiple cultures was the result of a shift in historical understanding that was given impetus at the time of the 350e 350th anniversary and the

descendents of the mayflowers decided to invite part of the tribe to address the crowd that would gather for the event. the invitation was extended it frank james, a member of the tribe who at the age of 14 had taken the native name wamsu tfrment-- he was a musician, he served in world war ii, he was the first graduate of new england conservatory of music and a music teacher on cape cod. he was considered, presumably a safe choice to speak at the committee. and when the committee looked at his remarks, they wanted changes he refused to make.

james addressed a separate gathering of fellow natives and others on poles hill overlooking plymouth proper and replica of the mayflower. in the text he had prepared for a very different audience james admitted it as he put it it is with mixed emotions that i stand here to share my thoughts. this is a time of celebration for you, celebrating an anniversary of a beginning for the white man in america. a time of looking back for reflection. it is with a heavy heart that i look back at what happened to my people, even before the pilgrims landed, he continued, it was common practice for explorers to capture indians, take them to europe and sell them as slaves for 220 shillings apiece. the pilgrims had hardly explored the shores of cape cod

for four days before they robbed the graves of my ancestors and stolen their corn and beans. wamsutta went on to i am number rate broken promises and ended by saying, you, the white man are celebrating an anniversary. we will help you celebrate in the concept of a beginning. it was are the beginning of a new life for the pilgrims. now 350 years later, it is a beginning of a new determination for the original americans, the american indian. now, frank james was not the first native new englander to remind the public of the long history and continued presence of the native population of the region. in 1838, not too far from the boston public library where

this event was originally scheduled for. the methodist preacher he reversed the pilgrimage story to turn them into heroes and english into villains, but wamsutta address on poles hill was significant, it was the first of an annual event called the day of mourning which has evolved over the years in its demands and tax particulars, but which edits harm and remains assertion of the importance of the first people of the region. the troops that the states organizing committee found too uncomfortable remain to this day importance troops to be addressed by all who are interested in the shaping of

17th century new england. and that was something that the organizers of new england beginnings bore in mind. as we looked about what we were to do about the commemoration of 1620. early in the process of thinking about the events of that year. the colonial society of massachusetts and new england historic and genealogical society agreed to sponsor a new addition of plymouth governor bradford's plymouth plantation. the significant part from england to plymouth, massachusetts. the editorial team, including ken of yale, paula peters of the nation and myself three of us here are pictured along with jeremy of the american pilgrams museum.

and the manuscript included hebrew vocabulary from the government trying to teach himself that. we row lied on the interpretation of that material. the inclues is a striking departure from traditional, but not the only one. i'd like to discuss what makes this volume unique and move on to talk about working on it helped me to revise my understanding of bradford and his writings. william bradford began to compile his history in 1630, 10 years after the arrival on the mayflower and the same time that john arrived in massachusetts to take charge of the colony that would become the dominant puritan presence in new england.

while bradford composed the work in a way that suggested he was preparing for public education, it was not published in his lifetime. passed on in manuscript to successive generations of his family, it was used to tell the story. his nephew nathaniel moore used it in writing. his own history, published in 1669. later in the century, puritans, cotton mather drew on their own account of the history. in the 18th century thomas prince consulted the manuscript for his chronological history published in 1878. prince would retain the volume placed in tower of the third church of boston. popularly known as old town.

it was there by british toops troops, and one presumably brought it to england where it ended up in london. having been discovered this. the manuscript was eventually, after four decades much negotiations, brought back to new england in 1897. the first publication of the work was in the collections of the massachusetts historical society in 1856 while the manuscript was still in new england. a common benefit edition was published in 1898. and since then a number of other additions. when our edition came out in may, someone asked on facebook, why she should buy it because she already had five other editions. well, let me try and answer that, this is, both in printed form and the soon to appear

on-line version, the most accurate transcription of the manuscript that's available. a high resolution color scan allowed them to-- looking at points made by bradbury. and establish that some insertions of marks were made by a later user most likely thomas prince and pointed out in the introductory essay. we can judge with some degree of certainty that bradford made at least two passes and likely more, from the text, stretching in the 1650's. he did not abandon his history as some have said, but continued to try and clarify his meaning and improve his style. early on, we decided to include into the text itself, letters which bradford had inserted in his narrative.

but which previous editors had relegated to aept-- appendices. and we put these into the main text. the result of the decision was to produce the material as the author had planned. another feature of the new edition is how we've approached the anotation. the last major edition who have significant annotation. and our understanding of the religion, plymouth colony society and economics and native history have substantially changed in the decades since and there have been substantial answers in chronicling the lives of the

first colonist, we wish to intercorporate the new insights into this edition, including putting a greater sensitivity to the native perspective in the notes as well in paula peters introductory essay. robert and charles hamilton dealing with life. and jeremy brought his expertise on all aspects of the story. one of the most notable accounts is the plymouth colony. edward winslow, one of the leaders of the colony who would serve for a time as governor and then as an agent to the colonies to the english government. and the beginnings. english plantation, published in 1622 and generally known as morris relations.

and windsor published other works, good news from new england, hypocrisy unmasked and new england salamander. thomas morton and other enemies of the economy published their own accounts of the pilgrim adventure and accounts which are much more early. including nathaniel morton and william haub barred had the advantage of speaking to men and women who themselves played a part in the colony story and incorporated those tales into their own narrative. drawing on all of these. we made an andtation that sometimes supplemented the narrative. equally significant our notes for bradford's other writings. during the last decade of his

life. accounts of religious dimensions of the story. organizers and changes between the ancients of the economy and those of the younger generation, two of the three survived. they were in many ways unfiltered and in them dealt far more with the religion than in his history. and bradford, relatively common among educated men at the time. dealing primarily with history and religion, the poems were a venue to express feelings that he tempered in his history. finally he compiled a letter book in which he copied correspond that told the colony's story. and wish he drew on when i inserted in text, letters he considered important. only a portion of that manuscript survived, but

indicates a scope of the original. the first extend page contains a letter from the colony's investors. and that page is numbered 339. suggesting a vast number of items from early years that we would love to know about. but in these books, bradford sometimes omitted portions of the letters he was including in his history. where those emissions are significant, we have printed them in the adaptation. as all of this might suggest, the task to producing this anniversary at plymouth plantation. it was much more than and learned about that's what i wish to focus on.

in the results of new england it's important to guard against accepting orthodoxy at no question and from commonalty and neglecting nuisances. and over the past decade, a variety of subjects i had been dealt with. i found that i succumbed to the fallacy of new england as boston rit large, between the colony and within each of them. i didn't always champion the differences between the barriers of so-called orthodox puritanism and leaders such as john winthrop and thomas douglas. i accepted without question that membership in colonial

churches needed a conversion, in the equations, a test for others. meanwhile, as-- i've been questioning the assumption the only worries of puritan women worth telling is those with dissidents like ann hutchinson and ann gier. it was with this that i began working on the bradford edition and it's set to be published in a few months. one of the things that led me to question was the term pilgrim. separate from puritan. there were two elements. one was on the way that the story was told by generations after the revolution, who

sought to identify the essence of the new nation. for the most part the national historians, lumped the pilgrim and extrolled them all as founders of the american democracy and exemplars for religious. and descendents the mayflour held annual parades and winners. by the early 20th century the story was revised. those who felt constrained by the moral codes of the victorian age blamed the puritans and in the process mischaracterized them in many ways. this attack on the puritans is perhaps best encapsulated from the writer hl menton who

quipped that puritanism is the haunting theater that someone, somewhere may be happy. literary scholars, such as vernon and van witt brooks, scores who saw the economic drive essence of history argued that the search for wealth was the driving force behind the settlement and growth for new england. popular culture came to misunderstand puritans, as theocratic misogynistic, bad fashion sense and with those who disagreed with them and burned witches. historical praise to those with puritanism to concentrating only on those blemishes. for those closely connected to

the plymouth story, it became desirable and imperative to distinguish the pilgrims from the puritans. there was some evidence that seemed to point in this direction or at least support it. during the late 16th and early 17th centuries english church authorities had attacked puritans who were struggling to reform the church from within, by saying that their views inevitably led to separation and thus destroyed the unity of the church. in order to retain their credibility as reformers, rather than revolutionaries, most puritans had denied any connection with separatists, such as the ancient church in amsterdam and john robinson's congregation. scholars who bought into this position ignored the many things that most puritans had in common, with the common with the separatists and emphasized

one issue which did divide them. focusing on the debate between separatists and other ppuritans, whether it was necessary to leave the church of england, to find evidence that the two groups were hostile to each other. further evidence of distance could be found in the religious debates that accompanied the english civil wars and puritan revolution of the 1640's and 1650's. advocates of presbyterianism such as scott robert bailey, sorted, for the off shoots of separatism. to be tarred themselves a separatist, colonial author vigorously denied that their church theology arrived from the pilgrims or separatist

influences. and a number of historian bought this, in the shaping of new england religion. harry miller, who did much to legitimize the study of new england puritanism argued that the churches of massachusetts would have been no different if plymouth had never existed. and burke vich dismissed the pilgrims as an insignificant group had no design on shaping american history and bosman went further arguing that plymouth was pathetically unimportant. i would suggest that such scholars were misled by cotton and other contemporaries who protested too much. recently some historians have been willing to reopen the question of plymouth's influence on the bay colony.

and i look into that in my book and highlighted a few incidents, the statements by endicott and others at the time. ... the colonies position but also deep within the plymouth congregation. this was the first of a number of trips taken over the next few years to the bay colony. his ability to impact the disease was likely minimal but he spent many hours in consultation with the puritan leaders of salem who had no

argument at the time and on later visits he engaged in similar discussions with john winthrop and others of the 16 \30{l1}s{l0}\'30{l1}s{l0} migration. the question before all who immigrated in the early years of massachusetts was how to form churches and undertake worship. the answer was to be found in those who form congregations themselves such as forming it to lay initiative. in letters to governor bradford, in his letter book and copied into the book of the plantation, he praised him for his knowledge of mr. robinsons church and expressed his view that he, john endicott, believed plymouth faithful were servants of one master and of the same household.

and that gods people are all marked with one and the same mark and sealed with one and the same seal, and have for the main one and the same heart guided by one and the same spirit of truth. and where this is there could be no discord, nay, there must be sweet harmony. also significant letters in bradford letter book from one of those who would arrive in salem with endicott. he not only engaged in discussions with them but traveled himself to plymouth where he was entertained by bradford and by william brewster the elder of the congregation. by 1629 following plymouth example of lay initiative, endicott got other layman and formed the congregation subscribed a church covenant and then chose as pastor and teacher

two recently arrived at puritan clergy. the delegation from plymouth travel to salem to extend to the new church the right hand of fellowship. a similar process involving discussions with leaders in the bay preceded the formation of congregations in boston, watertown and dorchester in 1630. and most interestingly one of the new arrivals in massachusetts, william would been a member of john cottons boston lincolnshire church, said prior to the sailing of the winthrop fleet it was quote, mr. cottons charge that they should take advice from them at plymouth and should do nothing to offend them. the essence of this story including the text of letters this out and what bradford

reported with some additional detail in the letter book. but that is not all. in various poems and in this dialogue, radford repeatedly emphasized plymouth identification with the broader congregational movement as dumbbells were in new england and among the english congregational independence. in a lengthy insertion he rejoices in the downfall of the bishops with their ceremonies that came about with the onset of the puritan revolution. clearly i case can be made for the role of plymouth in shaping new england's congregational puritanism. the other way in which my understanding of early new england has changed by immersing myself in bradford and other sources is an understanding of its relations with the native population. as made clear in the essay of

the new addition, the natives of southern new england had ample reasons to be suspicious of the arrivals on its mayflower. earlier voyages of the europeans had brought diseases for which the indigenous people have no defense. as we witnessed the hard effects of the pandemic sweeping the world today we can perhaps better understand the horror of an unknown disease cutting down thousands of victims with the normal human instincts to comfort the sick and care for the dying becoming means of spreading the contagion. in the region around cape cod where the pilgrims would settle mortality rates of 50% 50% e common and some kennedy suffered losses of over 90%. in the village, the site of which became plymouth, there was so you few survivors that those natives who remain dispersed to

live in other communities. what had been a flourishing community earlier in the century by the french explorer champlain, depicted here, was deserted in 1620. 1620. in addition to the ravages of disease, then they to suffer from the aggressive intentions of some who kidnapped individuals and brought them to your here the most famous of these was this quantum better known as squanto who received he was brought to spain to be sold as slaves, escape and spend time anyone until he is able to make use way back to england and devastated homeland. it's not surprising that its party for mayflower export lancelot cape cod bay, the natives with the exception of a brief clash at what is known as first encounter beach, observed

them but made no attempt to make contact. in the course of these explorations the english found deserted villages. they desecrated graves and they cease for the own use corn stored by the indians for the own spring planting. there are two accounts of these explorations. for the first time we see what i believe was the significant difference in the outlook of the two men. bradford described events with little detail and with little evident interest in native society. winslow showed more curiosity about what the expedition came across. bradford minchin abandoned villages and grades in taking the court. winslow is much more descriptive recording the nature of the

houses remaining. he reports that on their first encounter with what they assume to be graves they left them untouched because we thought it would be odious to ransack their headquarters. the winner next site they came upon he acknowledges that did that stop them from examining a great site, the details of which were not reported. winslow record recorded m one of the expeditions that bradford did not. he wrote as we wandered we came to a tree where a young sapling was bowed down over for a d some acorns strewn underneath. stephen hopkins said it'd been to catch some deer. so as we were looking at it, william bradford, it gave a sudden jerk up and he was initially caught by the way and hoisted into the air. winslow went on to admire this pretty device made with a rope of their own making and having a

news as artfully made as any broker in england could make. bradford did not mention the episode at all and it probably did nothing to improve his view of the natives. it's important to remind ourselves that not all of the colonists held the same beliefs and principles. while sharing many european attitudes, winslow always seem interested in the native inhabitants and developed a close relationship with them. bradford views of the natives was far more critical. in the early chapters of his history, he wrote of them, as savage barbarians ready to fill the pilgrims side full of arrows, he described the landscape as the first encountered it as a hideous and desolate wilderness full of wild beasts and wild men. but his harshest views were confined to his poetry. in one poem castigating the

natives as a people without god or law, and marveling that the colonists had lived so long among these folks so brutish and savage without tasting of their rage. winslow on the other hand, showed an appreciation of how they preserve memories of important events taking a hole in the ground that would prompt questions and thus the telling of a tale related to the event. while he acknowledged at one point he believed the indians about us are a people without religion or knowledge of any god, he later acknowledged that therein i i aired, for they conceive of many divine powers. while we shouldn't make too much of the different views of these plymouth leaders that are two incidents where it seems to have made a difference in how they presented the plymouth story.

the entered into a mutual agreement with the pilgrims, brad chun wenzel sought as an significant event but their accounts differed. winslow's account the more complete records the six-point of the agreement as this, number six, that when their men came to us they should leave their bows and arrows behind them as we should do with our pieces when we came to them. which makes the treaty seen less one-sided than bradford account which eliminates the necessity for the pilgrims to leave weapons behind when the entered native villages. in addition to this difference there is another significant one which many of you are probably familiar with, and that is the discrepancy in the accounts of bradford and winslow of what we come to call the first

thanksgiving. bradford simply talks about the gathering in of the harvest. he does not mention anything about the native presence. it is winslow who gives the four account. our harvest gotten, our governor sent men out so we might rejoice together after we've gathered the fruit of our labors. many of the indians coming amongst us and among the rest their great king with some 90 men for whom for three days we entertained and feasted. and they went out and killed five deer which they brought to the plantation. the implication of a special event and the fact of the native presence are in this account but not in bradford. the questions surrounding both

these cases prompted me to think more closely about the native role in the colony and the overall colony response to that native presence but these were not the only questions that the consideration in the early history of plymouth, the editors of the new addition hope our volume will help other scholars to investigate other questions. that's all for now and we can have time for some questions. thank you. >> thank you very much, frank. i can try to allay these questions do you as they come in. i encourage folks to use the q&a option on zoom. we have a question from robert.

he says i'm wondering about bradford education. he quotes seneca at one time, and in another place bradford writes being passed a vast ocean in a sea of troubles. this is similar to shakespeare whether it is nowhere to take arms against a sea of troubles. is there any possibility, robert asks, the bradford knew of shakespeare was this just a common metaphor of the time? >> i think it's very likely that he knew of the works of shakespeare. bradford is an interesting person because he did not have any education beyond the home and presumably a local grammar school. he is not one of the puritans who went to either oxford or cambridge university but he was always are interested in what we would call self-education. he read extensively. we can tell from the inventory

at his death he had a very large collection of books and then of course as robert mentions, there are frequent mentions in his writings that indicate of familiarity with a great number of works. i would suggest two things, that if robert is interested in this he might do. david louver has written a recent book on classical influences or evidences in the records of plymouth and he actually talks about the passage specifically as well as some other indications of the knowledge among the pilgrims of classical literature. he also, another book would be jeremy banks who is one of our coeditors recently published and inventory of all the private

libraries of people who died in plymouth in the 17th century and left evidence of book ownership in their libraries. a large number of volumes is impressive. in fact, i do want to go on too long here but one of the things that always struck me is that we don't recognize enough the sort of intellectual baggage, , as jeremy has referred to in another piece, of the pilgrims. and even when we go to plymouth plantation which is a marvelous re-creation, they give you a sense of the dress, the livestock, the building materials but nowhere do you have any sense of the library's. william brewster at his death owned over 400 volumes. i have no idea where he put them

in a house of that size, but the fact is there is no evidence other than a few books here and there. these are people who did have very extensive libraries, quite a few of them. certainly brewster and bradford and myles standish and some of the clergyman and so forth. >> thank you. we have a question from stephen who asks, why is it that only bradford history remains when the other person, i guess is referring to winslow, has more detailed accounts of their experiences? i suppose it would help to clarify that and say how winslow's accounts are available. >> right. winslow -- and feel free to add anything to this -- but winslow's published his first account in 1622-1624.

they are more detailed because they're dealing with the farm work and compressed period of time. some of his later works like his attack on samuel and such are addressing specific issues. wenzel never set out to write an entire history of the experience of the pilgrims. he was writing about certain events, and as a result he could go into a great deal more detail, whereas bradford was trying to give us a much broader picture. >> i think that's right. going back to the shakespeare point, barbara has an interesting point. shakespeare was believed to have performed near the church that bradford attended. does that mean shakespeare himself or his plays were performed? that would need to be clarified. but doctor banks she said shared that with me. he thinks him if seeing each other. that to imply that shakespeare

was in leiden at that point. i didn't know that. >> i did know it either and i'm going to have to talk to doctor banks about that and find out. >> that's remarkable thing to think about. >> yes, yes. i mean, i think in general and i found the puritans there is some familiarity with shakespeare's works. while there is an opposition by most if not all puritans to praise to the performs embraced aspects. they didn't have any problem with the place as literature. they did own copies and they could read them but i never heard shakespeare traveled abroad to lighten so i can't see anything more about that. >> we know for instance, that harvard college had shakespeare's folios in its library.

so for all that they denounced plays and licentiousness that could go around the performance of plays and the attending ablaze, as you said they were very much in favor of the reading a place. i mean, you know, cicerone and cato and all the classic playwrights, you know, they were all in the library's. >> right. >> thomas asks, what's your take on stephen hopkins, a non-separatist, in shaping relations with the indigenous people in trade and in colonial government as a member of the council? >> first i would qualify. you don't really have a council in plymouth in the same sense that you do in massachusetts. you have a governor and then you have assistance that are named

to help him. hopkins is a interesting story. there's a new book that was just written on hopkins that i've sitting my cable upstairs that i've looked at the cover of stephen hopkins, , the man who escaped jamestown and saved plymouth, or something like that. he's an interesting character because he was on the sea venture on its expedition to virginia and almost got executed there. it is assumed by many that he might have been one of the ones who told his fellow passengers on the mayflower that being in a place with no clear authorization or legal authority can lead to problems. and, therefore, we should do something, thus contributing to the mayflower compact. but yeah, i mean, he does play an important role in the history

of the colony. >> thank you. let's see, we have a question from kyle. can you both speak a bit about the condition of the original manuscript and what was like working with the, and how much you could actually work with the original? i'm very interested in the process of creating this new edition. you want to start? >> i'll let you take up entirely because you had physical contact with the exact actual manuscript. it's in the state library. >> the library of massachusetts right by the green. it's one of their prized possessions. they recently had it completely preserved, i think was back in 2014, and as a part of that process they had the manuscript scanned in a wonderful color, high-rise production -- high

resolution production that is available online and they also have a supplemental version that's available at the library itself. so we were able to use those previously unavailable technologies to create a transcription of this. and then were also allowed limited, quite limited, understandably limited access to the original in order to look at passages that were particularly difficult. like where some a later on had gone through and done a whole lot of very heavy obliterating. i sure wish i could get at those tax because i bet there's something juicy underneath those very heavy deletions. it was very difficult, it's very difficult to do that.

so working with the manuscript was very much kind of an online experience, with on-site visits but for us as people who are interested in presenting and using primary sources from this period, it was a real thrill first of all, kids in candy shops, that kind of thing, even for older individuals. but it was just a lot of fun in that sense. but also realizing you are part of a long history of the presentation and interpretation of this document, and so there's the consciousness that you want to do the proper presentation of it, given the history of it, some of the controversial pieces of it and so forth.

>> i would just add to quick things. one is we were both enormously happy that whoever taught governor bradford how to write paid proper attention to his penmanship. as editor of the winthrop papers i have had to decipher john winthrop handwriting, and it is a a beast. william bradford has a very legible handwriting. the other thing is, in terms of us using the online scan version, one of the things that is nice about that is that you can blow up the image on your screen, which helps in terms of deciphering some of what is there. >> i see kristen on the screen. i'll mention one more thing, christian, if that's all right. an alternate version of plymouth

plantation will be available online come published online, it's the verbatim transcription of the text that provides notes, textual notes to all of the emendations that were made over type x looks much more heavily annotated for those who might see that. it would be available soon at the plymouth society for massachusetts, at any atg as site and at the state library of massachusetts site, so be on the lookout for that. >> great, thank you so much. that was fascinating, particularly your comments about the library. i would like to say we didn't get to have a chance to get all of the questions so is her l address where people could reach? >> yes. they can reach me at

francis.bremer@millersville.edu. >> and i welcome questions at ken.minkema@yale.ed. >> thank you very much. this has certainly been a fascinating conversation. i appreciate your time and thank you to all of you who have been your with us for the past hour. on behalf of the boston public library, thank you for joining us, and please stay well. take care. >> thank you all. >> thank you very much. >> weekends on c-span2 on intellectual feast here every saturday american history tv documents america's stories, and on sundays booktv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 come from these television companies and more including mediacom.

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