tv Penelope Winslow 17th Century Plymouth Colony CSPAN November 25, 2021 10:30am-11:31am EST
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lady penelope winslow, and women of influence during the fiscal years of plymouth existence the wartime and the end of its independence. our speaker tonight is michelle marchetti coughlin. she is the author of life and writing of -- and the book shall be speaking on tonight, "penelope winslow, plymouth colony first lady: re-imagining a life" picture recently served as guest curator for pilgrim museum exhibition path founders, women of plymouth and as a scholar on women's suffrage commemoration project with the museum. she serves on the board and as a museum administrator of boston house museum. without further ado please join me in welcoming michelle to speak this evening. >> thank you very much, gavin, kathleen for arranging this
talk, and what say thank you very much to the massachusetts historical society for this wonderful opportunity. i have been using mhs resources for years in their collections, their exhibitions, the programs and their staff are outstanding, so thank you mhs. so tonight i'm talking about penelope winslow and i as a historian study early american women. because i really feel they been significantly underrepresented in telling america story. if were not sharing about how half the population laid the foundations come helped lay the foundation for this country where will you not getting a full or an accurate picture of america's past. so when i first -- summer years ago i was surprised that she wasn't better-known. as a member of the english gentry and wife to -- she was a good one of the most powerful
women in plymouth's history. as a quick refresher the colonies were found in 1620 when the pilgrims arrived in last until 1692 when it was absorbed by massachusetts bay. so the reason penelope is a better note is it's only been fairly recently. that mr. tester studying women because their expenses didn't take place in the public realm and historians didn't think their experiences were worthy of study into the past few decades. but also penelope, like most of her contemporaries, she didn't leave much behind in rick russo writings. unlike the subject of my first book there's no diary for details of her life. but she does appear in the archival records and she did
leave behind what's referred to as material culture, basically anything used by people. and in her case these items range from surviving cones to personal possessions to archaeological artifacts. and combined with the written sources that really helped shed light not only on her life it on the life of other women of the time and nondevelopment of new england. i'm going to strawberry giving a brief biography of penelope. she was born in 1633 in a village about 70 miles outside of london. as a make and she is a member of the english gentry. her father herbert was descended from various monarchs and, in fact, penelope's third great grandmother was mary boleyn whom you may have heard referred to as the other boleyn girl. her mother was -- [inaudible] and had been involved in british politics for centuries.
in the colonies among penelope's distinguished relatives in the county included -- after delaware was named, both governors of virginia. these connections were very important to her and it really helped her form her since everyplace in the world. i will start by showing you some of penelope's family homes. this is her maternal grandparents home located near her birthplace which i show you any minute. this is a very grand estate, has a moat and a part. it's actually smaller than it used to be. they used to be a much larger building. queen elizabeth the first stayed there and 1561. my husband my husband i were fortunate enough to visit these home several years ago and queenston at the time they were
undergoing renovation. so there were stripped of furnishings but -- >> michelle, sorry to interrupt but i think your powerpoint come if you could put it into presenter mode. we are still on the first slide. hit from the beginning at the top. >> sorry about this. how about -- let's see. i'm sorry about this. >> actually i'm noticing your cursor on the screen doesn't seem to be moving. there we go. we are all set. >> can you see the second? >> yes. >> great. sorry about that. this is only my second virtual talk so thank you for bearing with the technical difficulty. we are seeing both small bridge
and were undergoing renovation of the time we visit survey were restricted a lot of the furnishings. this is ferriers, her birthplace so it's not as grand as small bridge but it was absolutely impressive dwelling for the times this picture misleading. it doesn't show how ferriers extends quite far back. it is a very large building. this is a painting of ferriers done in the '60s and it shows just the surrounding landscape. so for penelope going up there, as far as the eye could see the land owned by her family. these are some of the early architectural features of ferriers. this is a courthouse that's on the property. ferriers was brought to the marriage by her mother and her
ancestors had used this as a courthouse to several local grievances. her father was a local justice of the piece so he probably used it as well. the whole ferriers complex really was a site that would've reinforced analyses sense of social -- penelope's social and economic importance. her father decide to uproot the famine in the to massachusetts. he was a merchant adventurer investor in massachusetts bay. and so penelope, , her siblingst a father moved and settled in new cambridge. unfortunately her mother appears to have died on the journey. however, feeling quite successful in cambridge which was a leading center of massachusetts at the time, harvard college had recently been founded, and herbert
acquired land and he rose very quickly through the government and he also became harm birds first treasurer however, after a few years he decides he needs to move back to england to settle some property disputes arising over inheritance issues. the whole family had come with them with exception of nathaniel and her brother, her older brother, the fan who would remain behind to attend harvard and penelope herself it is not clear why she did not accompany her family back to do new england the later, she may not affect the best relationship with her stepmother who herbert had married short after arriving at cambridge. we do know she probably at this time moved in with her father's sister, another penelope, and her husband richard bellingham who was a leading citizen of
boston. he would serve as governor for several terms. the bellingham home was located near where the chapel is today. so moving there was exposing penelope to host the people and ideas that exponentially broadened her world. we are not sure what her education consisted of but it would've been overseen by her aunt and it was obviously a good education as records testify. we do know at some point she met josiah winslow here on the left. and became engaged to them. this may been to her brother as josiah and taken harvard. he didn't graduate but also herbert and edward winslow were well known to each other. edward winslow was the pilgrim who came on the mayflower and
served as governor of plymouth colony and is holding this wonderful letter here. you can't make that much of the writing with exception of the signature which says from your loving wife, susanna. this is susanna compostela mayflower passenger. both edward and susanna were married to other people on the mayflower voyage. their spouses died the first winter and their wedding became the first wedding that took place in plymouth colony. they had josiah here as well as a daughter. so want to talk to you for a minute about religion. to broadly simplify we know that massachusetts bay with settled by people who recalled the puritans. they wanted to purify the church of england. plymouth colony was settled by suffragists who wanted to -- separatists who wanted to separate from england.
both groups were reformed protestants who had a lot of common viewpoints. they thought individual should have a direct relationship with god. when you think of puritans and pilgrims we had these lingering stereotypes of them is being very sober, serious people. when you take a look at these portraits it would seem to confirm our ideas. however, we need to take a closer look. we see josiah and edward wearing black and you think that's because serious sober color. however, black was very fashionable at the time these portraits were done. we know by the date and edwards letter but we don't who the artist was. so black was very fashionable and also they are distinguishing themselves dressing up their outfits with these starch white collars. they both have gold tassels and edward has the gold buttons.
so at this time social status was extremely important and the social hierarchy. in fact, there were some laws on the books in england and new england prohibiting people from dressing above their station. so in these portraits just sigh and edward are clearly trying to make a statement about their wealth and social status. and then i want to take a look at penelope's portrait. this painting was in 1651. at the time the war which is coming to an end. two years previously charles the first had been executed by followers of oliver cromwell, puritan, in the parliamentarian forces. and so they were absolutely supporters of puritans and cromwell. yet we see penelope here and she
is dressed very similarly to the wife and of the daughter of king charles i. the first. so on the left is queen henrietta maria and receive the fabric she's wearing. also francis mary stuart on the right of penelope, penelope's gold necklace, her hairstyle are very similar to mary stuart. so she's clearly aligning herself here with the utmost upper ashlar of society. these portraits were shipped back to the colonies with a winslow's homes were and they were obtained by the family for generations until the late 1800s when it was donated to the museum. you may be familiar with the museum. it has preeminent collection of pilgrim possessions.
[inaudible] including several associated with penelope. the most iconic of these is this shoe. so this was formally -- has very elaborate silver lace on it and a story that came down with the shoe was it was won by penelope at her wedding and it was worn by subsequent family brides intel is donated to pilgrims call in a 19 century. so the shoes and they became separated in the 19 century. esther was cause as recently as the 1990s when they come a defendant owner of the second shoe found that about the existence of this one at pilgrim solve and arranged for both shoes to be shown together. but recently interpretation of the issue has shifted dramatically with the revelation
that they were actually made for a man. they were not warned by penelope at a wedding. when i first started researching penelope i happened to have a conversation with the den curator of pilgrim homes named stephen o'neill. he mentioned to me a british footwear his story had been to the museum and happened to mention that she thought they shoot at pilgrim solve was actually a man's shoe. of course i had to follow up on that and so i obtained the paintings of three fashion, historic fashion experts on the shoe and the all concurred that this, that she was made in the mid-1500s for a man. so there's a lesson here for us that we have to be very careful about bringing contemporary gender -- i didn't know -- i
didn't want to bring gender to historical artifacts. this story is also emblematic of a larger scene in penelope's story and also with the study of early american women, that new pieces of information are continually propping up a new sources of information. it's an ongoing story which makes it exciting. but knowing the story about the shoe, that meant i had to really check off every item that i look at and, of course, this is not a derogatory comment on pilgrim hall at all. they do a fabulous -- there constantly researching. their collection is so vast and so many other things were given to them such a long time ago. these i just want to show you on the left, these are some not as ornate as the other slippers but they are formally 17th 17ty
again made for a man and then ironically the winslow shoe at pilgrim hall, this is supposed to be issues that were worn by josiah. on the left we have the person that penelope is supposed to have made on a sea voyage. check out the date of this person historic fashion experts confirm the date coincided with penelope's lifetime but, of course, we don't know for sure whether she made it on a voyage. and then on the right is was called -- it is a silver -- we had the initials on it. and did the sender to the family so odds are it was penelope's. this is a very intimate item because penelope would have used it to lace up her clothing. also maybe think of penelope as a mother because at the time there were not maternity clothes
come people just letting them out when they're pregnant. penelope didn't have -- her first surviving child, a daughter named elizabeth was born in 1664. so about 13 years after the time of her marriage. her only other surviving child, a son named isaac, was born in 1671, so 20 years following her marriage. now, we are very fortunate in that archaeological excavations have been done at the site of penelope's home. following their marriage and where not sure if there were married in new england or london but they do return were edward and savannah winslow had lived, and so they originally moved into the susannah. he goes over in 1646 and becomes involved in cromwell government. he never returns to new england.
he dies on a military mission. he died at sea. in 1665 joe sigh inherits the bulk of the estate. at some point he goes, the house for himself for penelope which is located nearby, so originally the first archaeological expedition done at the site was done in 1940 by henry hornblower. we can look at this plan that was done by later archaeologists and you see that the house has a typical that for the time except it is much larger, it's a more grand home but it has this fall that was common in the 17th century, a bigger room where daily life took place. and then you also have the parler, a more formal room were he not only entertaining but
also business is conducted. so at this time we don't have the distinction between -- the formal distinction between public and private that we do now. houses were public sites. men were conducting businesses from the home and so there's a term deputy husband where it's an acknowledgment of women in connection with their husbands business. men would recognize that the man was not around to conduct business, his wife could act as his dad. because women were cognizant of was going on in the home. so business that was going on in home. so in josiah is case he stepped on the conducting its own enterprises but also active in plymouth government. from the 1650s on he becomes active picky also becomes a successor to miles standish, a military leader of the calm and eventually becomes governor in
1673. we have to think of penelope's role. so a lot of the government business taking place long. she has this role as a gatekeeper. she has acknowledged influence, men will come to the house to speak to decide. she can get immediate access to them. she can relate messages so she has a lot of power in this respect. also this is something that we really think about, but seeking favors and opportunities other husbands behalf so there's this other full come of women that is interacting and are having t on the larger government. even though it's indirect light and is something we should keep into consideration.
there's a lot of family possessions. this picture that we get other winslow's other social and economic status come so this is a great share that would've had a cushion. we can see josiah perched on it, being very authoritative. showing this plate here because it speaks to a larger theme. we have another -- plymouth colony is being backwards and insular come not connected to the outside world. that's not the case at all. there was a lot of trade going on. you can see do something like this fine plate that we've had at the winslow's house but also in archaeological artifacts that are found not just in high-ranking homes but in lower,
much more simple, people with simple and lower backgrounds. archaeologists have found, not found ceramics that ceramics that have been imported. i'm showing you here this is a very iconic cradle. this was supposed to been brought over on the mayflower by susanna white winslow, one of the three women pregnant on the voyage. she gave birth to the first child born in new england and his cradle passed down through the winslow family and may have been used by penelope. these are just some of the vast collection of archaeological artifacts from the winslow site. these are in the collections of plymouth fantasia which is now changed its name to plimoth patuxet, a lot of native history and so we have these items in
the archaeological that kind of round out the information we get from the surviving possessions in the portraits. the kind of connecting penelope to fashion and any of those she made had. we have this fine needle case, found by archaeologists still containing pens. we have scissors and, of course, -- [inaudible] we can't be 100% sure they were hers but some of them very likely work. this strange item in the middle speaks to her high status clothing. it was specifically used to iron ruffles. over here we have a knife and there were more nice and spoons found on the property. no forks because they were not widely used in the colony yet
but also that even identified the bones, animal bones found on the property to find out whether diet was like. great insights to get when you combine the written record and the archaeological record. and so like english people they favored beef and pork. these are just some items that give insight into childlike. this is a silver whistle that has the initials ew engraved on it. perhaps it belong to their daughter elizabeth, , and we hae a marble. what's also wonderful about this, there's a host of artifacts pick some are thousands of years old showing the long present in the area and is a so helpful to have because the native presence in the written record is often very biased because it is being written by the colonists.
this is looking at native archaeology as a way to get insight into their culture and history. we also have artifacts that speak to the history of cross-cultural exchange. the items on top are pieces of metal that were taken from cattle sever used in trade with the columnist. the collins would trade kettles and the neighbors would sometimes take the kettles apart and repurpose the metal to be used for projectile or jewelry. and down your on the bottom right we have this spoon and this is a great spoon because if you can tell the user had been right-handed because it has this pattern of were on the left. it's also interesting item because it's called a seal spoon. not only for eating but -- [inaudible] at the bottom we have just a handle. they handle has been sharpened
to the be use some sort of . also we have in this article logical site native artery showing the native pottery. there is this history of exchange of technology and information that really is illuminating when you look at early plymouth. they are continuing to work on this. so when you think of the native peoples we have to talk about the winslow family, the plymouth colony in new england, very complex relationship with native people. we know about the fabled friendship that edward winslow had with the native person, later we know as mesozoic. mesozoic name means neither.
they not only had personal relationships with native people but he was interested in their costs and in the language. he tried to learn the languages. josiah did not have the same interest. he didn't have the same person enters and also didn't have the same diplomatic skills. i this time it was the second generation of plymouth settlement, so the committee's are growing. encroachment on native land is going. there's pressure on native people to convert to christianity so all of these tensions eventually erupt into what's known as the war of 1865. -- 1685. a devastating conflict and this was a signature event of josias governorship. it breaks out in 1675 in instant 1676 1676 and there's great distraction on both sides. now, there were two events leading up to the war that historians often point to as the pivotal as to its outbreak.
penelope was a participant in both events although her presence at these events is often overlooked. that's almost always overlooked. the first event takes place in 1662 before josias was governor. as a military leader he was sent by the plymouth government to go bring alexander, the son of mesozoic period ..
>> and their feelings and spend the night and along the coast. so this is fascinating scenario and it's also a healthy perspective but also is time for the, the hospitality. i just wonder, does penelope extend the hospitality to her other high-ranking english folk so she did but also the understanding about power and so penelope had a long and formal power. and this knowledge either of with her people and her viewpoint, we've recognized the larger scheme of things so it's important to consider.
so unfortunate things do not go well with visited because it becomes ill and the guy sends for a local physician who may have unfortunately made have harmed him with something that could help him. and he will return and another time the charges. and he dies and then his brother, who becomes the next one and also he has been poisoned and he said i believe he has been poisoned. so late 1774, but the governor handed the christian minister harvard educated christian minister and john tied it to
philip and the colonists arrived about to attack and you can just imagine answering the door and possibly you know siri can refreshments been absolutely disgusting major of the visit with her husband afterwards in light of what happens as a result so he warned josiah winslow and he doesn't believe john and he said i fear for you coming here and so few weeks later his body is found. it is believed that he had been murdered and shortly thereafter, make native men would arrest philip and putting in a tribe
and executed and not long afterwards. so josiah winslow knowing that this personal animosity towards him because massachusetts and he said i think the family so he decides the penelope and their 11 -year-old daughter elizabeth and they are not save the house so penelope and her children to go stay with her sister and like many people, they become refugees. so the brother is saying that i fortified my home and as long as a a man will stand by me so the testimony of the landscape of the homesite, there's this because of the tools that show that the site had in fact been
fortified, there are numerous things there from the time. they regarded the life that there were soldiers on guard and there are pieces of guns, armor, and were talking about josiah winslow in high style and they had belt buckles and straps for the guns. that's fascinating how you can get this other layer of the insight from looking at archaeology in combination with the written records. so the work comes to a close in 1676 the following year and devastating impact with great loss of life and property. and it takes years for them to recover financially but for many people the consequences are just
that much more dire for the loss of the traditional untraditional, is in communities and families and many are sold to slavery. things are never the same for the native people. and so postwar, penelope goes home and she is a personal connections to try to help josiah winslow repair his relationship with king charles the second. in king charles wants to know why this terrible thing broke out and he rises to the court any also arranges to send philip who had been killed during the war to this military, taking phillips. if this happening about a
hundred years later and so along with his military memorabilia, these two very impressive belts and so penelope, that's her brother walter who had inherited the family home, to bring these items in the report to court. and he's authority of the trust because it was enduring and what happened to them there very important people. and so my husband and i were in england, we just got to that area that walter reed kept them and those in the property remain in the property.
and it peters had been working on and exhibited and done a lot of research and she's been looking for them as well. so they wanted to get to know how josiah winslow died at the age of 62 and penelope is to commemorate his past. so this is very high style thing and you can see that josiah winslow care, in the ring, and has the works of goldsmith and there's no description though. in the story behind this, rings true and although - but we cannot make know for sure but we do know that in various times
that josiah winslow there is a letter, from the secretary nathaniel martin, and the collections at the historical society, just this really wonderful document. and penelope really tries to have the loss under josiah winslow and there were letters between josiah winslow and penelope that survived. and in his will, josiah winslow gave his power over the state so at this time, typically receive one third of the personal property into one third into the real estate and josiah winslow is charged with how to settle the land and if she needs to well and truly is in her ability to land management which would've shown during the years that he was governor and had to
oversee the property. so penelope, had 23 years of the high life and she does rise to the occasion and she overcomes her grief. and she educates her children and the property and she also - to reclaim the property and one is latest 17 oh three right before her death and she writes to the massachusetts governor and so again is just this document saying that her knowledge of legal matters in the education that she must've had. so the issue is resolved. but not until after her death so it actually happens to penelope
and also josiah winslow's home, the strength of the bird down in the 60s, turned out to be true and then there was a story that this house is owned by her son in the late 16 hundreds of the final years of her life rated and she may have done this filing that were not quite sure but after her death, her memory continued to be owned by her descendents in fact, during the revolutionary war, and you can see her records that there was a strong attachment to the british lineage and how her heritage and her influence did last week this generations of the winslow's and and still around today.
and in particular, the family history, heritage, they are loans and this is very true that many women of the preservers of family heritage and history but also larger pieces of the historical record and i want to show you one last item having to do with penelope's and the commemorative marker placed in the early 20th century the homesites for these families .so the stewardess honors josiah winslow but it has no mention of penelope or others so it's so heavily symbolic of the history. and so in conclusion, i really feel that the use of the culture
traditional written records, not only has the power to shed light on the life of an elite individual like penelope we also more ordinary people that impact of the times read there so many important stories that we can recover and it's up to us to find a way to tell the stories. so thank you very much and i would be happy to take your questions. >> all reminded the audience members to use the q&a button coming the middle of the bottom of your screen and if you're an example they may be off to the side. we have a couple of questions and i would encourage others to also submit more than one question was that in time where people did not have expensive
paper, did you feel like you found the voice of penelope like you can feel like you hear her kind of moment. >> will think about the time and her portrait handed that gave me a lot of insight into how she identified herself and also the legal documents i have which were part of the family inheritances, she's a woman - for the man but she claimed this land and she has a strong right into it. she is very strong in herself and her associated right. and you can see this in the legal documents, you really hear her voice, get a sense of who she was, the privileges in the
life she thought she was entitled to. >> i also have a question that says, honey feel your work with the work of. [inaudible]. >> very inspired by laurels work very early on and so the diary actually got me so interested in that led me or got me started on my first book which is about the diary a very old diary which begins in the 17th century, they're just some few diaries. and also to be published so just got will that was very inspirational for me so again yes, it is looking at these women the right things but also
she is said to have popularized the micro history so looking at one individual life for one topic but you contracted the larger happenings what is happening in the world. i also like to take a look the individual subject and the likely times, and how are they affected by what is going on and what are they doing this affecting other people. so yes, she's obviously very influential. >> i was wondering was there community support or was a at the mercy and also regarding the children. >> actually had rights that were
also the women had actually had rights that some men didn't have. so for example, one of these is this right thing to mention about a widow typically was given one third of her husband's property, so the things in their immovables and also interest in the real estate. so this became a right increments so if a widow felt that she was not given a proper one third, and she referred to it, she could go to court and they would take her seriously. because they wanted to make sure the windows were taken care of but also they took over the husband's business is often so this is true. you see widows and businesses that you might typically see a woman in, and things, all kinds
of protections the kind of fall into help their families if there husband has passed. doesn't like the women are setting out, saying that i want to be a ship writer, so could be a merchant, midwives, teachers, and you know, they did have rights so sometimes you saw wealthy widows. >> so there's a much more complex picture than i thought. >> so yes the mercy of the community. one of the very early women a
common she was very well known for the property she accumulated and she was stuck in this community to ask another question which was where would we find out more about the life of service during this time. >> servants, so i can actually i can give them, i do have a website so my e-mail addresses on the website. on my website at michelle marchetti coughlin. so afterwards for specific questions like that i am happy to help them out. >> great and thank you so i think that judging by the time of the year wherein, we have to ask, thanksgiving next week, short time from now.
how do you think this will follow with penelope and her experiences and how we celebrate thanksgiving today, with the native people and how the story is presented. >> i think that's hard to project, it is so complex and this is why i like to study early america because it is so complex. from generation and generation and people's religious backgrounds, ethnicity so i just would not be able to put words in her mouth. so thinking about how would abigail adams you know, first lady abigail adams and compared with penelope winslow and how they would react to each other
because there's generations between them. the societies, climate change and the women's changing over those years just over those years, there's so much that is my answer. is that it is such a complex period of time and so we really can't come out of it without looking at real details and specifics pretty. >> eric wrote, details and specifics, as a witness in plymouth colony for the wills or in releases for the landfills by her husband or any things prior to her husband's death pretty. >> is a really good question and is great moment when i found a deed from the 1660s, written by penelope and another one, sarah standish, and so this was
indeed, it was interesting and i had to do with the bridge and i had a really important piece of infrastructure. so is how women are participating and making these things happen and so because of these activities, and the government activities, which from the home, often had her or other family members written so there is that one and you can also tell who's in the house at the time and visited the location and the witness so yes so it's a great way to learn about time. and i look at who is putting
this deed are the documents and then who is witnessing the sofas in the background is just as a matter of a different perspective and trying to think about these events on amount of two of perspectives pretty. >> to remember the women in the colonies during this time, and you're interested in this and started track these people down. >> is so i did a lot of research in conjunction with women exhibit and because of covid-19 is not the way that it should be intended to but their opening this weekend and their opening for a few weeks but it will fill up and it's a great exhibit, not just the 17th century but it
is also native women and women throughout the country. so lots of the lamina, their fascinating just from a different time. so this information along the way but also my next book project is the life of the colonial governors are working on the book about this i got interested in things about how to other women in these positions, the colonial governors wives and how did they as these high ranking women, have the answer power soaking not only the other original you know 13 colonies, made of the original states so some stories there. >> great so one last question.
would you remind us of the relationship between winslow and white. >> so yes, so the sign of the susanna white and her first husband and then she married winslow, that was a second marriage so edward winslow was her stepfather. and published by the historical society so if you're interested, is a great story actually done by former student so if you're interested in the book. >> will thank you very much for a really informative talk. >> weekends on "c-span2" are an intellectual feast, every saturday you find events and people to explore nation's pass on american history tv, on
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and events that tell the american story, at 11:00 a.m. eastern on lectures in history, washington university, pilgrims taking part in the united states founding story, in the 19th century history textbooks and then at 1:00 p.m., president nixon senior advisor, gives you the behind the scenes view of the 37 the president domestic agenda which included the anti- family and comes in a national health insurance program and support for children's nutrition rated on the residence and, watch weddings up to first daughters at the white house and at 2:00 p.m., president lincoln daughter linda, mary's u.s. marine, the summer night, 1967 and then at 10:00 p.m., president nixon's daughter patricia mary cedric cox on junt rose garden wedding. >> mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall.
>> the institution and the ronald reagan presidential foundation and institute, takes a look back at the evolution of president reagan's, here comes the well speech it is important to more than two decades later. white house speechwriter behind the address, robinson participated in the event pretty exploring the american story, watch american history tv, saturday and "c-span2". and find a full schedule in your program guide, or watch online anytime, at cspan.org/history. >> recently in american history tv, a debate between educating our american democracy projects author, daniel allen, and critic marked our line of emory university about the best way to teach american history read. >> why. >> that is gotten a lot of votes
so isn't this the case where you spent a career in higher ed at the university of emory, the freshman it year, but is it possible that secondary teachers in america are not particularly ideological interested in and going there. what would you say to that. >> you would know more about those lower grades that i would. do you think the social studies teaching profession is nonpartisan. there is not an ideological women in the social studies teachers professional organizations. >> look, i think when teachers are teaching kids k - two, there hoping them learn norms of productive behavior in a classroom and try to understand
the right responsibility relationship to the group their part of including the classroom is that basic in politics is at the end of the day, about people coming together to establish norms and cultures of respect and institutions. we do things collectively and we need to work for the groups and the kids understand predict that is what is going on in his early grades and that conversation printed. >> you can watch his entire debate online, at cspan.org/history pretty simply search for danielle allen or mark bauer line at the top of the page. [inaudible]. [laughter] >> that means good morning friends in my language, good morning friends and how are you doing today.