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tv   History of the Cold War International Relations  CSPAN  December 4, 2021 10:00pm-11:01pm EST

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we light the christmas tree as a beacon of hope and a symbol of our celebration of this holy season. >> one, 2, three. [cheers and applause] ♪♪ [joy to the world] ♪♪ >> watch more history of holidays online, c-span.org/history. >> tonight's program inside the cold war, why it matters. i am james brundage and i will be your host for this evening's
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program which is offered by the international spy museum. i'm joined by colonel chris costa and doctor andrew hammond. chris costa is director of the international spy museum and 34 year veteran of the department of defense. previously he served 25 years in the united states army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in central america, europe and throughout the middle east. he ran a wide range of intelligence, special operations in panama, the first and second iraq wars and afghanistan. he won two goldstar for intelligence work in afghanistan and was assigned to the warfare develop and where he served as squadron deputy director.
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in 2013 he was inducted into the united states special operations command hall of honor for lifetime service for us special operations. most recently he served as special assistant to the president and senior director for counterterrorism at the national security council. doctor andrew hammond is historian and curator at the international spy museum his interest in intelligence came from the period of service in the royal air force, with documents to the royal navy. he specializes in military and intelligence history and author of the forthcoming book entitled struggles for freedom, afghanistan, us foreign policy, and the story of 9/11, with military and intelligence study. has helped fellowship at the
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british libraries, library of congress, new york university and he was formerly a public humanities fellow at the 9/11 memorial museum and public policy 0, and the museum's podcast. gentlemen, thank you for being here. i'm looking forward to our discussion. doctor hammond, would you mind telling us a little about the spy museum before we begin? >> absolutely. i think it would be better if you don't mind me changing the running order as we discussed that. >> i can do that. it is my favorite topic to talk about. i will say we opened in 2002, our founder milton lost who
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swerved in the national security agency in the 1950s. the spy museum in 2002, we existed in dc, it is too far from the national mall. in may of 2019, moved to the other side of the mall, an amazing 140,000 square-foot building and that is where we have an opportunity to tell how and why the techniques and procedures that we are going to talk about, and the nation's spy, the heart of the cold war story, the only public museum in the united states to tackle espionage and intelligence from an international standpoint and we are proud of that with the
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largest collection of espionage placed on public display. that the great segue, talking about the artifacts it is crucial role in the spy museum. >> this is just off the mall on the plaza. one of the ways i think about the spy museum, it is four walls, the collection that is truly magnificent. what you want to think about, there is amazing stories connected to an amazing artifact. for two minutes i will walk
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through a few that relate to what we are talking about. this is one of my favorites. a silver cigar box. you see the bottom of your screen, the gentleman at the top right of your screen. this is probably the only physical piece of evidence connecting these two gentlemen want to overthrow the bolshevik regime. think of this as the history of the cold war. imagine more bolshevik regime and some historian said the cold war started in 1917 during the russian revolution. others of the more conventional starting point. we can go from there up to 1940. this, i thought was a specific
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fact, the cold war was a number of things but one thing it definitely was was an ideological conflict. within con you knew some the previous artifact, lenin dies, trotsky and stalin have a struggle and to cut a long story short stalin doesn't want trotsky to stick around so he gets killed. the next one, you can jump to the 60s in 70s. there are different artifacts. this is the heart that was used by what some called the spy of the century.
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the famous british officer secretly working for the soviet union. john walker, silver bar that we have that was given to him for his espionage activities. he set up aspiring and one reason, if you've been following in the past week a couple that are connected to the navy charged with espionage, john walker with the silver bar, they were paid with the crypto currency so we begin to think about the changes and espionage in the cold war up to now and the present day, these are the artifacts we have, the
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cold war into the present in so many ways, some of which we are going to discuss but you see the top left the connections to 9/11, the top rate you see joe biden, the premier of australia and the uk, all about what is happening in the south china sea, you see the bottom left here, what we see now is almost a succession struggle among great powers but grows out of the cold war by direct connection to what the cold war left behind. on the bottom right the brave new world, the wild west of saigon. over the course of the
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collection it goes from way back to the present day. each of those artifacts you can enter a portal, into a specific place in the cold war, a rough overview of our collection. >> thanks for the introduction to the museum and the collections here. i'm going to briefly highlight a few of the pieces from the library. we have an exhibit drawn to comments, the art of war which you see behind me on your screen. the museum is home to the largest collection of his work anywhere in the country all of which is digitized on our website. i encourage you to take a look at some point but i will share a few pieces and highlight the collection here.
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for anybody who doesn't know he was an editorial cartoonist at the st. louis dispatch 1958 through 1991 so he covered so many topics we may be talking about tonight and a lot of foreign policy issues surrounding the cold war and a veteran of world war ii as well. what he talks about. he did pieces, this was done in the early 1970s. and the nuclear arms race, some very general topics, those caught in the middle does define cold war he saw through
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the decades. a couple more pointed things as well. these are a few of the many cartoons we have in the collection moulton did on the cold war. this reflects his opinion what was happening and a lot of public perceptions how the country saw what was happening from the standpoint of us soviet relations. on to our discussion. i will start with a general question that we haven't talked about. can we talk about how we define the cold war? >> i will give the version that is currently understood is a conflict that took place between the end of world war
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ii, 99 to 1, the dissolution of the soviet union involved two blocks antagonistic we opposed to one another. the north america and western europe, east, largely the soviet union and eastern europe, the former being democratic and the latter communist. why is it called a cold war? it was cold in the sense the general war never broke out between the two antagonistic we opposed power blocs, which meant to the between them a lot of the action took place in the realm of intelligence and espionage which is why there is a doozy of a story that connects. just a couple brief complicating events that take
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place globally. there was a global cold war. it was beyond east and west. from mozambique and angola to cuba, vietnam, took place around the world, even took place in the antarctic, the antarctic treaty that took place in the north pole because the shortest route for intercontinental ballistic missiles in the soviet union and america was over the north pole. the whole world was in meshed in the struggle. as i mentioned some say it begins earlier. some say it never went away. i gave the conventional understanding. the last thing to say in all those places, the cold comes
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from the united states and the soviet union not engaging in general war involving nuclear weapons which had happened, we wouldn't be here speaking. >> probably not. that is a great explanation. there were a lot of specifics. i will leave a little open for either of you. what are the more memorable aspects that go beyond the well-known touch points. >> i can join them. >> appreciate the opportunity to be here. i was remiss in saying that. we are very grateful to be connected to 2:00 pm m l. at the same time i learn
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something new, when i learn something from you that i really appreciate. andrew got to part of the question what the cold war wasn't how it was declined. i worked early on in my career on the periphery in places like central america. there was a war in el salvador, all bought as surrogates to a hot war. the nicaraguan regime. it is a fascinating dynamic that takes us as andrew indicated across the globe and we will get into specifics of counterintelligence. andrew did a great job as a seen setter. and a referral place across the globe. it truly was global in terms of
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the confrontation between east and west. >> the memorable aspects that are overlooked, i will give an interest in when to start. the longest war, in afghanistan. longest war in the history of the united states a couple months back, the longest war in the history of the united states, afghanistan in parallel. both of them feed into each other in ways that are more complicated. the second one is an interesting example. the ak-47 is invented in 1947,
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soviet weapon, one of the iconic symbols of the cold war, a symbol of the post 9/11 era, photographs of osama bin laden with the ak-47. what is interesting on the flag of four countries, mozambique, zimbabwe, just think about that. the mozambique one is interesting, there's an awesome bob dylan song called mozambique and it is meant to be ironic because mozambique was torn apart and the final one that is not discussed often is all of this takes place against the backdrop of decolonization. at the end of world war ii,
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you've got a lot of countries, but nowhere near the amount of countries that eventually become independent with the cold war. the best cold war, to decolonization and think about all of the european powers after world war ii, probably beaten up. almost the whole of the beginning of the cold war is under european, some form of european control. the literal states of the indian ocean all the way from oman and yemen all the way through to southeast asia and asia all controlled to some level by european powers. after the cold war that is no
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longer the case and you see the west and the east getting involved in various national issues because of a dog in vietnam or india or pakistan so that's another thing that is not often discussed but that was against the backdrop of decolonization which is quite wide-ranging and profound. >> host: something both of you hit on is this is the whole world that becomes affected by the cold war. it seems as if nothing is not impacted or you couldn't connect in some way to the cold war and what is happening during this time period. i will move to chris costa and
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talk about your personal experiences working in espionage and working for nato. how does what you did exemplify or relate to cold war espionage in general or more specifically? >> there is a story that takes us to belgium in 1992. that picture - this program was a vehicle for me to do in to my personal stuff and go into the storage unit and find some relics of my past. i did to share with everyone i was truly young ones in this takes us back to 1992. the story i will tell is a metaphor for the cold war and we will close the circle a little bit on the discussion of
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the cold war with some of the points that andrew made to include the possibility of nuclear confrontation. in 1992 i was assigned to belgium as a young counterintelligence agent. my mission was to detect terror and investigate the possibility of espionage directed against the supreme headquarters, and that was a few miles away from nato headquarters. i was responsible as an operations officer for my colleagues to discuss investigations and to ensure we didn't have spies operating against the military headquarters. we worked closely with 16 partners in those days. there were more nato partners working with ci services and the other 15 countries. it was as much about liaison
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officers and investigations as already mentioned. this is a post 1989 posts wall coming down environment. when did the cold war end, ended when the wall came down, when the soviet union broke up. in belgium in particular who are assigned there, peace is breaking out all over the place. it made our jobs in the counterintelligence realm so much more challenging because everyone wanted to do things like partnerships for peace, soviet schoolchildren to nato, we were going much more deliberately because we are counterintelligence people and suspicious by nature. all of the sudden much to our surprise, a story broke about a spy at the heart of nato headquarters.
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the spy was purportedly codenamed topaz, somewhat mysterious. and investigative leads to try to determine if the headquarters was penetrated. was there a spy reaching into the heart of military headquarters in the midst of all of that not finding evidence to substantiate spy activity, there was an arrest made and it was reported a spy couple was arrested for espionage at nato headquarters. let me tell you the rest of the story. it is fascinating if you bear with me for a moment.
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topaz, a former top spy recruited in the 1960s. he was west german, he had a left-wing ideological bend. nobody caught on to that. by 1977 he was able to get hired at nato headquarters. he was an intelligent individual by all accounts. by 1977 he had recruited his wife is a british citizen to spy along with them. he continued to take home secrets, photographs or secrets in his basement, in his office with a camera. i will show our guests in a moment. when the wall came down, his
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spying stopped but was not revealed until as i indicated he was arrested in 1993. nato would not have known they had a spy were it not for any sturm and defector that said there was a spy at nato headquarters. i watched this play. a fascinating dynamic for me as a counterintelligence officer to be involved intentionally with the investigation and do the follow-up assessment. here is the bigger surprise and it has to do with christian robe. when we went to nato headquarters to coordinate our counterintelligence activities with the nato office, she was a deck of contact. she actually worked in the nato office of security.
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she took our most sensitive intelligence secrets, in some cases the top-secret level and secure them extensively for her boss who was the head of nato office of security. we were very concerned but we discovered she stopped spying years before. when it was revealed the topaz was her husband, she was stunned. because she thought her husband had stopped spying against nato years before because he committed to her once the children were born to stop his dangerous spying activity. he continued it nonetheless in both of them served time in prison. the last point is crucial to make and ties into excellent points andrew made. the postscript for this story
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is activities may have by some judgments of verdict a nuclear war. how? at the time, in the 1980s, to set conditions for our audience and guests, in the 1980s, president reagan's rhetoric and activities scared the soviets. we had a series of exercises, you can google, the soviets actually believed the united states was getting ready for a first nuclear strike. topaz's intelligence that was provided to the warsaw pact called the nerves of the soviet union. ultimately they saw this intelligence. usually clandestine tradecraft like you see in the movies to communicate with his handlers,
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he was able to calm the lawyers. in some quarters people believed, as egregious as it was, from our perspective, in a western perspective, as egregious as it was, it calms the soviets down and they were convinced the united states, and nato, was not going to conduct an attack. the last thing i want to do, i went on a little long but it is worth it for our audience, they can see this. i to let everyone know that i had an opportunity because of this program to go to our archivists and historians and staff and they provided me with a camera which is right here in my gloved hand. this small camera, you can't see the components of it but there is a little switch i'm scared to play with that would
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have controlled the shutter speed. what we used to do with this - not this specific camera, but this model, he used the rest it on his 4 head and lean over and change one document at a time while he photographed the most sensitive intelligence the west had so that is just a sliver of the cold war story that i wanted to share. .. from your perspective you're
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writing a book or you have two books in the works, for you why is it important to study and discuss the cold war? >> i mean, many reasons. came up a couple of times as nuclear weapons. the vocabulary, the grammar of nuclear weapons, that was all developed during the cold war and during the cold war for the first time in human history the stakes were everything -- you know, we don't know nuclear weapons because we only have two examples to go on and what happened to hiroshima and nagasaki of what's available now. there was a general war between the west and east with nuclear weapons, the stakes would have
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been the biosphere and years ago when they were facing but wouldn't affect the western hemisphere but the legacy of nuclear weapons as all fell on the lane, the stakes are everything that is just there. i've just done a brief research and one of the nuclear war simulators and one mega ton. one megaton nuclear weapon in downtown chicago where you are, you would be gone, 100% casualties, great low occasion but you would be gone
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unfortunately and the the follow would reach places like detroit and flint, michigan. that's one megaton nuclear weapon. within the first four minutes casualties where they are now after 18 months of covid. so we are talking about really big stakes. so we are still learning how to deal with that and learning how to deal within the confines of the cold war mainly the united states and some of its allies in the soviet union, nuclear weapons, horizontal proliferation where more countries are getting nuclear weapons and international relations are struggling to try to deal with some of the developments. i think that that would be one of the big ones. i'm sure chris has got a few.
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i spoke about ideology earlier and you can see a lot of the 20th century was about a conflict between communism, fascism and liberalism fascism, by in large at the general level and that isn't something that's gone away, that's struggle for idealology for how to arrange governments for levels of individual freedom. that's something that's still continuing. communism has not went away. it wept away in the soviet, it's not went away in china and we see lots of interesting developments taking place in the south china sea and that's a
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growth, we have seen the international system change and china assessing itself and that's a post-war context. >> chris, do you have anything to add? i think that was great comment? >> no that was comprehensive. andrew does a great job of capturing. >> i thought that was fantastic and kind of takes us to our last question here which in a sense one of the questions that we have gotten from our audience. you know, what implications does the cold war have for today's military for global affairs and i think it goes along with this idea that you just mentioned with so many nations still communist governments and did the cold war really ever end or has it become less prominent. did it just shift in ideology, you know, did the cold war just really kind of end with the
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soviet union and now we are dealing with something similar but, you know, different name. >> so i will try to tackle that that 8 russians were sent out of belgium, brussels, sent packing for being intelligent officers. a war that i believe was won by the west but it is a new reincarnation, if you will, and what we have to be sure that we do is learn the appropriate lesson that is the west garnered during the decades, decades of fighting the cold war. we forget about the people that were waiting, american service members waiting to potentially
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deploy to cuba for an invasion with u.s. forces. and many of those people go unharolding because it didn't happen. we have to remember what we learned about counterintelligence because the russians are continuing unabated the kind of activities that they conducted throughout the cold war. what's different perhaps is now we even have more capable adversaries, andrew talks -- alluded to china, right? china is the number 1 counterintelligence threat in the united states according to the fbi, so we have a significant amount of challenges and we have to remember some of those lessons that we learned during the cold war because i think they will come in handy as we thread the needle, as we continue on this trajectory that
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we are on. we don't want full deployment and we saw how afghanistan ended recently so the west has to reconcile some of those lessons and we have to apply them on a new battlefield and we haven't even talked about cyber, it's beyond the scope of our discussion tonight but all of the dynamics make a very interesting time in history. >> yeah, i would certainly agree with you. i mean, sort of following with that, i mean, do you think -- could you classify any, you know, what was happening now as a cold war, are we in the cold war with china or, you know, is cyber warfare the new sort of cold war, you know, is that something that we can compare to what happened, you know, with
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the soviet union? >> i can jump in. i mean, i think the first is here be dragons. when you say this is the new cold war, that's the metaphor to use. i would like to just veer on a couple of aspects of it. i mentioned earlier who made the cold war cold, well, what will hopefully make -- as in cold war, what would be a cold nature and by that all i mean if the united states, for example, when china has a general nuclear war against each other, the planner and all of us here are going to be just as -- i'm trying to say the diplomatic word.
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not so well off as we would be if russia and the united states went to war. so this goes back to this nuclear dynamic that came out of world war ii. so, you know, this is something that is overlaid just now and there's studies, limited nuclear war and, you know, can you use nuclear weapons. the problem is it with escalate. people think because the cold war went away that we are out of the woods but it's going to take people that are engaged in international affairs that care about peace and security to be involved for us to get through the next century because we came out in the 20th century but the skin of our nails. >> well, i'm going to sort of --
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i think, we are having a good discussion here about, you know, where does the cold war take us today, can we even talk about, you know, what's happening today as a cold war. i think as you said, we don't know because we hope that it would be a cold war and we hope that there won't be any sort of escalation with what's happening. but to take -- we've got a number of questions from our audience which are great and if you have any others, certainly specifically related to the cold war or the museums and what we do, we would be happy to answer. one of the questions, you know, is regarding the cold war, what do you think about the role played by -- and i might get the name wrong here so bear with me, anatoli grabanin, soviet ambassador for dc for 25 years. what -- what sort of a role did he play in the cold war?
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>> that's a historian question if i ever heard -- [laughter] >> he was an interesting figure. i think he was there from the cuban missile crisis all the way through the late 70's. i've read a number of national security memorandums, participant and so, yeah, really interesting figure and i guess one of the roles that diplomats made that russian ambassador played, you try to maintain some calms, some level of communication, some where you can exchange information either publicly or through back channels or back doors. it's communication, it's trying to make sure that events are in some way managed and so i think he's a great example because he was there for so long and that's
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not really something that you see in the state department, someone for such a long period of time which goes in the nature of the soviet system, i guess. >> sure. this one might be another question for you then, but what role if any do immigrant communities particularly from places like estonia, latvia andd luetnia take. >> i'm going to take it and not baltic states. i'm not an expert on the baltic states but i want to use another immigrant community as an example because we talked about it, we tell the story about kim, spied for the soviets, he was
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purportedly a loyal sis, intelligent service british officer and he was actually providing for many years secrets to the soviets. we had access to the closest guarded secrets here in washington, d.c. in the heart of the cold war. he was the liaison and during liaison with the very young cia's, cia's post-cold war operational problem was to send albania immigrants back to albania to overshow the regime in albania. bad actor, clearly an enemy of the united states. that was the first post cold war overt action and immigrant communities were integral to building a capability. now unfortunately many of those
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immigrants were killed when they went back to albania and the operation was abysmal failure and this ties back to kim filby, evidence suggests that kim compromised the operations. that's another another example of not necessarily peripheral operations but ramifications. it wasn't a hot car, it was covert action and it went very bad as -- because of the treasury of kim filby from a western perspective. now the baltic countries also were a bit of a battleground but i don't have enough expertise to really talk about those countries in particular. maybe you do, andrew. >> yeah, i think -- yeah, i think one of the main things to see to go back to the discussion on the cold war, the immigrant communities were usually important and especially on a
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multi-cultural country like the united states and the cuban community in florida and other places they're like -- they're usually important and i think that for the united states just casting an eye towards the future and thinking about intelligence and espionage, for human intelligence operations, you need people that can blend anywhere and one of america's strength and i'm seeing this obviously you can tell from my accent i'm not american. those immigrant communities during the cold war were part of american, position of the world and the part of the position of
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the world and they are interest and dynamic of american domestic and foreign policy. i was going to follow-up with that, those communities would probably be more scrutinized because of the fact that especially during the cold war where was their loyalty, who they were loyal to and i can imagine, chris, you mention espionage and intelligence gathering pays off and becomes that much more important to know who are people and where do their loyalties lie. that's exactly right. but you're exactly right. it's a double-edge sword. you have immigrant communities but it's also widely known many of the communities during the covert actions that we alluded
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to were penetrate bid the hostile intelligent services. i mean, we know that the uighur communities across the world are being penetrated by china because china fears these kinds of activities, sometimes the uighurs are a threat to china, so they have an active program to go, they being communist china to go after these immigrant communities. so, again, the more things change, the more things are the same, there are lessons that we can learn but good counterintelligence is a start and we learned an awful lot about that during the cold war. >> and i think that kind of takes us maybe into a final question that we have time for which is, you know, with intelligence agencies working together, do you -- do you see it as being extremely important, do you think now intelligence agencies are sharing more
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information to prevent espionage? does it seem that's something that they've learned coming out of the cold war is that only through the sort of interactions amongst each other that they're able to pinpoint and then prevent these -- these types of activities? >> i will jump in to say the public-private cooperation i've never seen it stronger. i believe that the fbi established several traffic forces specifically focused on counterintelligence and also counterdisinformation. i forget the exact title of that specific task force. it almost doesn't matter but the point is you can't build these task forces without having a relationship with businesses across the united states, it is
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absolutely crucial. i will tell you that i'm in touch with people who do that work and i'm very pleased to say that that trajectory and it's very important because counterintelligence is going to be according to the realm in this next incarnation of -- of a cold war whether it's a new one and an old one, dressed up as a new one, regardless, i think it's important to know that counterintelligence and cooperation with the private sector is absolutely crucial. what do you think, andrew? >> a couple of thoughts. the first one would be, if you think what was discussed tonight. like what all of that and bring it back to their control. what we are talking about here basically is a process of globalization that has taken place over the course of the
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cold war proper and more recently technological developments, globalization and all these different types of changes and one of the shorthand is space, time and compression. think about george washington's ancestors and how long it took them to cross the ocean and how long you can cross and space is getting compressed and nuclear weapons are a great example of this and i think that what is intelligence the world is being closer through digital, through cyber and think about before the invention of the airplane the front lanes were the front
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lanes, when the airplanes come along, then they can bypass. if you think of where we are now, all of us on front lanes now, the front lanes of information and intelligence to go back to chris' point are no longer purely the preserve of the government. every status in this country probably owns a computer or a smartphone or something like that. their computer is able to be penetrated there on the front line so different dynamic. it's extended and much broader and to go back to chris' point, this means the government and intelligence agencies can't do everything. just a couple of weeks ago on the museum's podcast, we had an episode we were talking to salespeople from microsoft so just think about people in the
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world who have a microsoft operating system or a pc or i've got word in my computer right now so microsoft, for example, are meshed in a way that companies weren't necessarily before. sure, you could help to develop aircraft and your blueprints, something like that, but no front lanes are much broader and it requires a different type of approach and that goes back to the public-private aspect that chris is speaking about a minute or two ago. >> yeah, i think that's great. i think that's, you know, sort of a great kind of maybe end point for us this evening. do either one of you have any final statements, final
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takeaways, bits that you would like to add to our conversation tonight? >> yeah, i do. first of all, james, thank you to pmm&l, this has been fascinating. this is the first time andrew and i have had an opportunity to do a program together so that's -- it's been a lot of fun. thank you very much for the opportunity. i want to leave with a positive note, so i want to offer this. prior to 9/11 we had a very diffuse arguably intelligence community. 9/11 happened. there were some major bureaucratic changeses in how we approach intelligence broadly and in particular counterterrorism. in the counterterrorism, the enterprise in the united states and with our foreign partners did an story job of keeping the united states safe from a 9/11
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and i'm here to note that our foreign partners were instrumental in that. i believe the lessons that we learn if you follow my logic with 9/11 will carry over to what andrew just talked about to that cooperation. we know as a nation we can't go at it alone. we cannot do that in the intelligence realm. so we have won that with counterterrorism and we built up an enterprise to keep this nation safe, similarly i believe the lessons that we learn from counterterrorism will cross over and bleed into the counterintelligence front until the intelligence front more broadly so we have embraced lessons learned so people should -- we can be critical and we should be self-critical of where we've been particularly on
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counterterrorism but at the same time i think those lessons, the work done by intelligence officers across the planet talking about our western partners, right, they have done an extraordinary job so i thank you for the opportunity to share some thoughts. >> thanks, chris. and i think for me just really briefly, it's been great to speak to you and if any of our listeners have never been to the -- i would recommend going to it. it's a great location. if you like military history, you can go in and read a book and also, of course, come to the spy museum if you're around the washington area but i really appreciate the opportunity. i think the final thing that i will just say for people that are viewing this would be, you know, for those -- i'm sure i'm preaching to the converted to
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some extent but that stuff is really important, you know, if there's young people watching this engage international affairs. that stuff really matters. i was there not long ago and there was an exhibition of world war i. world war i is pure international relations. world war ii, pure international relations. this is the nature of the world, almost every combat theater and every war zone that's on the pages of the library involves another country. so does involve the whole world. i've got two great uncles that lie on foreign lands because of world war ii and that stuff really matters. the fate of humanity is on the lane so please engage with the international affairs, think
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about careers and do what you can to make sure that we get through the next century. >> well, thank you so much. yeah, those are fitting words to bring our program to a close this evening and thank you to both -- both of you as well to the international spy museum, you know, this was a great conversation and i really appreciate being a part of this. thank you also to the international spy museum for their support with this program and thank you to the military foundation on behalf of the military museum and library. if you would like to make a donation or both of the organizations, of course, we would be happy and grateful to receive them. thank you all for joining us tonight. thank you to our participants for being here and please keep an eye out for our future programming. >> thank you very much.
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>> thank you, james. ♪ ♪ >> weekends on c-span two are an intellectual feast. america's story and on sunday book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors, funding for c-span2 comes from the television companies and more including talks. >> eligible families access to affordable internet through the connect program bridging the digital divide. >> supports c-span2 as public service. next on american history tv it's lectures in history with university professor loretta looking back at baseball during great depression and best-selling author nathaniel,
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retracing journey through the new republic and curators discuss how cold war affected international relations. watch all this and more starting now on american history tv. find full schedule at c-span.org/history or consult your program guide. here is lectures in history. >> for today, our normal theme baseball in american history. specifically today we are going to focus what i call the baseball during the great depression. a lot of themes that we have been developing throughout the semester. one of my mantras for the class, everything that you need to learn about american history you can learn in baseball. let me start with some of the goals for this lecture

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