Skip to main content

tv   Caroline Janney Ends of War  CSPAN  December 25, 2021 8:55am-10:01am EST

8:55 am
american history tv, every saturday on "c-span2", visit the people and places that tell the american story and watch thousands of historical stories online, anytime at and you can also find this on twitter, facebook and youtube, at cspan history. >> now our guest today, is professor caroline janney and her book is "ends of war" the army after an let's take a quick look and i will share this with you. [inaudible]. "ends of war", the army after, the university of north carolina press who for helping get on
8:56 am
this program and for publishing this fine book and we bring it to you in the first edition it. and there are illustrations and maps and ies will share some of those with you in this important conversation and we are with the first edition copy to you with a custom abraham lincoln bookshop bookplate don't want to thank you caroline janney for getting back to us assigning these and first of all let me tell you a little bit about caroline janney and jamie and the john l professor of history and the american civil war and the director of the third for fillmore history at the university of virginia. that is a lot. >> is a wonderful job and it
8:57 am
couldn't be better. >> is a research on your job, is really one of the unheralded heroes of the civil war history so you have collected for years and years and years, pieces of american history and now. >> i have special collections now we havet somewhere between p to 30000 letters and diaries that we have now collected and we are just beginning to go through these and figure out all of the many many thanks that he collected and we are going to be digitizing the collection and making it available worldwide for everyone. >> that is wonderful. and also the result of the
8:58 am
collector, going out and doing what they love to do. and at the bookshop, you collect stuff, it is a perfect example of what can happen if you have this obsession of yours, is valuable. it is a really valuable thing and so anyway, great job and congratulations and i know you have great stuff to work with. and caroline janney is also the author of remembering the civil war and reconciliation and burying the dead been on the past and the memorial association and the lost cause and when i see that book, the professor caroline janney, of
8:59 am
course i think of having just a few months ago on the show, and the late robert e. lee statute in richmond and of course the daughters so this topic of women, southern women postwar is crucial. >> right, the work that karen has done it, nicely put together and the former reminded that the daughters, effective as of the women that i wrote about in the first vote predict they were part of the initial plans to build the monument starting in . >> right. anyway there's a difference of go, caroline janney earlier
9:00 am
spoke but today we talk about the "ends of war" and following my social media is and why have been reading the book the last month or so and i'm crazy about his. it and i love this book .. watching how the war ends and if nothing else understanding
9:01 am
this is a complicated, heartbreaking thing, don't just bring down the curtain and everything is fine. i think the story you tell in "ends of war: the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox" is a story how wars end. a story of how war smack -- end. it doesn't mean the troubles of the people you talk about our over y does the end of the civil war interest you so much? >> guest: you hit on several important things, one of those being in the midst of the war ending, that was absolutely the case for americans, white, black, however you chose to describe them in 1865 it wasn't
9:02 am
quite clear what it would mean to end a war, to end militarily, legally, all of these questions that were up in the air. i don't think there's one particular moment we can point to. appomattox is shorthand all-time, talk about the civil of the war, people say appomattox and we all seem to be on board with what that means and people at the time certainly hoped appomattox would be the end. some people at the time hoped appomattox would be the end but it wasn't entirely clear and living in that moment, what does it mean to end a more, but also the point i try to make in the end of the book is all of
9:03 am
these things that happen surrounding the war in which the war came to a end, had long-lasting effects, that we are still living with today in many instances. >> right, and the next thing you do when you open your book, most of it is an investigation of what happened after lee's surrender, the book is -- not that interested in palmetto ranch or crossing the rio grande or something like that though i know you recognize that is important, this focuses on lee's army as it said in the subtitle, the war in virginia but what made you want to look at the time lee's army after appomattox, keep the story going with other books closed. >> a couple ways in which this
9:04 am
book came together. the first two books i wrote, looking at the memory of the war, i kept bumping into things that were happening in the spring and summer of 1865, how unionists are thinking about the former enemies, do they call him former enemies, are they still enemies? the ideas were out there but my initial intention, i edited volume that looked at the appomattox campaign and i was going to write one essay about what happened to the army after appomattox. ashley wilkes coming home in gone with the wind and other cultural references, one or 2 soldiers drifting home, the notion of a bunch of vagabonds
9:05 am
terrorizing the countryside, but i want not clear on how the confederate army was disbanded or demobilized so i thought that is a great essay, i can delve into that and it didn't take long getting into the research before i realized this story is so much more complicated than i had ever imagined and that blossomed into this book. >> it is a complicated book and i think it ties in a lot of complicated themes very well and during the course of our talk i will try to reason as many of those as i can. as soon as i opened the book it had me fascinated and i'm going to read the breakdown of these numbers. right up front you tell us
9:06 am
60,000 men when you left richmond, 28,000 were paroled. 11,500 became casualties including captain which is part of the story, 20,000 ribs unaccounted for. what does the future look like to these 20,000 guys? who were than what was the decision they made right then? >> just to be clear when it comes to numbers in the civil war, we are doing the best that we can. it is difficult to nail down precise numbers. there's 20,000 men who aren't formally surrendered at appomattox between april 9th and twelfth. that is the question what becomes of these men, who were these men, they had as many different stories as they were men, some of these men saw the
9:07 am
writing on the wall, they realized, at any of the battles along the way that this wasn't going well and the army could be compelled to surrender, they called grants unconditional surrender grant and the refusal of what would happen to them as captured confederates, prisoners of war if they were even held as prisoners of war, some refused to surrender and took off, others are physically unable to keep up with the relentless pace of lee's army as it pushes west trying to move south and hook up with joe johnston in carolina, others are very determined not to surrender and not just to avoid begin alleviation of the act of surrendering but to continue to fight and that was the case more so for those who had horses, is a simple logic behind this. artillery and cavalry men were
9:08 am
most likely to escape appomattox, to ride off from various points of departure with new plans for what to do next, can they rendezvous perhaps in a small town in the mountains of north carolina or maybe they can go to the hills of the shenandoah valley and reorganize? many of these men well into man a handful into june believed the site is not over and if they can only get enough men, they can continue the war on another front. >> host: this includes the memoirs of alexander, he had this meeting with lee on the day of the surrender, we could do this, that, the guys can go to their states, the governors could decide if they can continue the war and stuff like
9:09 am
that, lee told him i'm not going to do that. i can't do that but in part of a new book, don't think you handled it directly but your book sort of says it led me to think lee never told his guys that. it wasn't until the farewell order that he told them come of the 28,000 that were still with him, this legendary peace directive, the other guys didn't get that. >> that is a great point. is having the conversation with alexander, telling members of his command that this is what he wants but you are right, to my knowledge this is never directly communicated but at that point it is also pretty late in the day, there are thousands upon thousands of men, not cavalry and artillery yet but others who dropped out of the ranks, it's too late for
9:10 am
those men. >> for them to get the order to comply. talking about appomattox, there's a whole genre of literature, even talking about the details of that, it is like a whole list of books. what i think that says about appomattox which we are going to talk about that we could spend the rest of the interview talking about it, is in my mind it is especially the men were aware what was happening was both a historical event and legendary, we talk about the myth of the lost cause and as easy to talk about, appomattox helps -- stops here, and they
9:11 am
start saying stuff over here. those guys new something legendary was happening and that is something i think you wrote about in the book when you start creating stuff, the kind of stuff i like, they create, the polls get created, they stacked mclean's house, his furniture, because they, the men tear down this apple tree which turned out had not been, until that home -- >> sorry about that, yes. >> this awareness on that day that what is happening is eventful and they want to keep it. we are going to talk about a couple things that we could spend the rest of the conversation talking about. one is you share this scene
9:12 am
painted by alonzo chapo and you like it is a theme even though there are problems with it but i will share it here so you can discuss it, might want to know why you thought this was a good representative seen of the surrender. there we have it. >> guest: we have so many different versions of what happened, who was there, who wasn't, debates about whether sheridan was there or not. there are some paintings that include pastor. we know custer was not there but the various cables, there has been a lot of discussion over the years whether there were two tables or three tables. it only makes sense parker was
9:13 am
sitting at a third table. how else could he be taking notes and jotting down what grant and the copy that grant asks him to make so i am keen on this image for those reasons of who it represents being in the room and there are problems with it but also the notion that the look on lee's face is less than triumphant which is not what we see in other images that just it is difficult to tell, i should say it that way, who is surrendering to whom. it is clear in this image. >> host: do we know the date that he did this? >> guest: the print in the national portrait gallery is quite strikingly different, was 1870.
9:14 am
i don't know, it makes sense it was an earlier one. >> host: i have been obsessing about 1885 lately because it is the year grant dies, the year the memoirs are published. it would make sense to say let's get another piece of grant out there. so i too point to the tables. i have a particular interest in the tables and i know you do too. two of the three tables in the painting, i agreed is the most accurate in terms of mclean's stuff so they have lee sitting at the table grant sat at and both tables were accounted for.
9:15 am
the mobile top table where grant is sitting in this picture is i believe in a museum and i believe grant's table is at the smithsonian may be. and this is colonel parker's table which i think captain bowers sat at for a while and he did a story where bowers was supposed to ride out the terms, my head is shaking, i can't do it. but then bowers in other artwork sitting at that table but ultimately it was parker, the man with the writing hand that sat down at the table and you see it in the background and there are two ledgers, it
9:16 am
would probably be easier for us to just go ahead and take a look at the table itself which does exist. it is the only table that is not in a public institution. it is in private hands. as -- at a time not long ago, if years ago it was consigned for sale and we had the opportunity, the honor of representing the owner and got delivered to abraham lincoln's bookshop for some time and so there it is. the parker table. we don't have it, don't come asking us for it but it is definitely the third table and it still exists like everything else. it was taken because they knew it was a legendary moment. >> it is phenomenal to see it even in a photograph and think about all the connections, what actually happened there.
9:17 am
thank you for sharing that. >> the short part of this is this was taken by captain thomas wells, the son of secretary of the navy gideon wells and it remains in the wells family for a long time. the collector who owns it has all of that, it belonged to the wells family and it had been, it had been refurbished at least once because one of those generations thought it would be a great idea to keep the fish tank on it. so at one point in the later part of the twentieth century it got refurbished because it had fish tank stuff all over it. this is 30 minutes of our talk.
9:18 am
>> guest: i will add one more piece. in the book i offer a photograph of general lord in richmond. in the photograph you can see the marble top table that was taken from mclean's parlor. this stuff holds value. whether you want to think of it, people knew that what happens in that place was significant in some fashion or another. not unusual we see them all vying for -- even mclean's daughter's and all that was taken, whatever the case may be, by a soldier. evidence that i was there. >> like men who took down that apple tree. before we leave appomattox there's one more thing created their that is important to your story and that revolves around
9:19 am
the terms of surrender, grant famously generous terms of surrender which creates a little bit of legal questionable legal standing, a practical effect on the confederate so talk about the terms before following the confederate on the road. >> the terms the grant offers, the latest in his memoirs, came to him, they put him to paper, the terms that he offers are that the men surrender their weapons and flags, they are home on parole, the term that we flesh out a bit. to take up arms again against
9:20 am
the united states -- there's a new provision we don't see another terms of surrender, they will not be arrested by union authorities. this is a new part. we don't see that in this book or other surrender terms. lee also adds a line, this is important to point out, we no longer have unconditional surrender grant. there's reasons for that i believe and i'm not suggesting he is wrong but there is a little bit of negotiation that is going on here and that is that we will add until they exchanged. this might seem like a line but it is important for two reasons. on the one hand, lee believes at least he has the tiny little bit of hope that perhaps joe
9:21 am
johnston's army or kirby smith's army will be successful and there will be a need for his men once more and maybe the war will continue and they will be exchanged to. the other side is grant could have taken that out and he doesn't and that is telling because he, this war is coming to a end. we can let that one go because obviously this is just a gesture. it is really empty because it is obvious that when we capitulate the others will follow in his wake. grant very much has hope. >> that will create some legal wrangling later but what i did do, professor jd and i spent half the interview talking
9:22 am
about the first chapter and i promise you, this is just where the book starts to get really good. so when you start to follow those confederates away from appomattox is when this book really starts to get good and let's share another image here. i got this not from our stock but the library of virginia, they are all issued a parole, right? or a parole pass and here is a parole pass captain james garnet of the ordinance office of byron grimes's division services a parole, this is a pass, what does this do for them? if you read it carefully, what does it do when he goes home with his servant?
9:23 am
>> host: i had never seen that added line. i absolutely think this is fascinating and now i have something else to investigate. there is so much going on here we could talk about so i will take up that, the notion, does it say with horse and servant i believe it says. >> with horse and with the ask servant. >> lee has asked grand if all the men could take on their horses, they supplied their own horses so grant degrees to that but the more interesting part is servants which means slaves, this is another part of the story we know a little bit about that i try to flesh out
9:24 am
as much as possible, there were hundreds of black men still with the army of northern virginia and appomattox, most had been enslaved and were either serving as body servants which is probably what was going on in this case or they had been impressed by the confederate government, both free men and enslaved men were impressed by the confederate government as any type of event. some of these men were listed in the paroles. if you look at the parole list you can find examples of african-american men who are listed but in other accounts we have men that are writing home about bringing their enslaved man home with them. i tried to piece the story out as much as possible, what did
9:25 am
it mean to be an enslaved person, we free at appomattox and the short version is no, not necessarily. one of the really interesting things, grant says nothing about the enslaved men and handful of women that were with lee's army. he does address this and vicksburg but there seems to be this assumption that with the emancipation proclamation and seeming union victory that slavery will come to a end but around home there are examples of confederates that are forcing enslaved men and women to accompany them, to help them. they are hiding their slaves. one cavalryman takes off immediately and the first thing he goes to do is to hide the people that he owns, to prevent them from making their way to the union army. to investigate this and figure out who added with horse and
9:26 am
servant. that is not on the original pass, they have printing presses with them. this is something to pursue. this is fascinating. >> now you've got me thinking to compare brian grimes's signature with the hand, that is going to have to be a project for another time. >> guest: let me and one other. grimes is one of the officers i mentioned ashley wilkes and one or 2 soldiers walking away. why -- there are entire divisions that marched away from appomattox, the surrender terms created by the commission on the morning of april 10th tell them they need to keep their organization to the extent possible so divisions
9:27 am
are marching away and grimes is one of those officers who leads his men away and many of those groups don't hand out parole passes until they decide to disband usually a few days after appomattox but they know they can't stay in these large groups, the 1000 men marching away or even 200 men marching away isn't working well. i have to wonder, people had blank passes so why not add just a little bit more here? >> host: may be that is james garnet's hand. >> guest: it very well could be. >> host: now you can start that investigation. then this leads us to the road and that is a very important part of this story with this
9:28 am
book and i make a quick observation. your story really the way i read it is narrative and storytelling and chronological, you talk about this, you discovered story of the war still going. for folks at home this is a storybook in the story is fascinating to keeps moving. one thing that keeps moving that you talk about or if you want to talk about the narrative you can do that but roads are a big part of the story, a lot of the story happens on the road. a few years ago yale sternoh talked about the meaning of
9:29 am
roads in the biography and so based on this work that other scholars have been thinking about, environmental history, what counts as roads? roots? the story of the demobilization of the army? >> guest: what a beautiful question, thank you. so it is the story of the roads taken and the roads not taken, at times when those are dangerous and confederates who have not yet been paroled decide they need to avoid roads and i also add passageways that mark rivers, creeks and streams that are also important,
9:30 am
avenues of evasion, some of the soldiers on the james river quietly tried to make their way past union troops, these are men who have not yet been paroled but are trying to get home but there's this dispersal that happens before appomattox, it begins when the armies leave richmond and petersburg but there are roads that take them south and west, 2 other points of potential transportation, places like brooksville junction, which is a small, to those who might be familiar with the south side of virginia, it isn't much of a village anymore. it was an incredibly important railroad junction just east of
9:31 am
appomattox and it is a working railroad line as far as the line is working in the aftermath of appomattox so paroled soldiers from the army are making their way there showing their parole passes you just gave us an example of using that to get rations so hopefully to get passage on a train that will take them some place like city point on the river, the junction of the appomattox and james rivers so hopefully they can take a boat maybe to richmond would be the quickest way to get to richmond or take a steamer and go all the way to baltimore because maybe they need to get home to tennessee or kentucky so this route, to take a ship that would take them where they can take railroads so at times it is treacherous and there are
9:32 am
times when being on the road itself could expose you. i'm talking about paroled or on paroled confederates. there are lots of other folks out there who are less than savory. the men talk about trying to stay together and camp away from the road so they are not sitting ducks out there at night. all of these decisions that are being made when you find friendly people willing to share their meager rations, when do you demand it, when do officers pull out their side arms that they have been allowed to keep and demand provisions from individuals or stores, from quartermaster stores that might be available? >> the road can be treacherous
9:33 am
to the x confederates and also treacherous to people living along those roads. >> you don't know who these people are and as with any society and any group of people there are bad characters among all of these groups of people, and there is so much danger and uncertainty and this will become even more fraught rather than less so as summer months unfold. i'm glad you brought that up. we have all of the enslaved people whose status is rather murky in this moment but thousands and thousands of them are coming into places like richmond and cities are becoming very full and this is becoming an issue and soldiers
9:34 am
are coming in and chaos is too strong a word but it is certainly chaotic and the uncertainty and fears wrapped up in all of these various groups. >> i am going to check on our comments real quick. i have to page over there. let's take a minute for those who have questions or comments for us and a few shout outs, we have two regulars, dave from the uk and dave from bernie, illinois. it formed a little dave cohort that is always here. dave bradley in the uk says hello and also zachary says hello. we have an answer to one of the
9:35 am
questions, john will and has chimed in to say the table used by general grant is definitely at the smithsonian national museum of american history. it was a gift of lee custer. and john is a dulcet. that the citation. >> i forgot about that connection. >> and -- didn't sheridan give it to custard to give it to libby? >> custer was not in the room. >> back in the parlor. >> back in the parlor. >> didn't want to sell his furniture and showed $20 on the ground, either keep the money or don't, i'm taking your furniture. i heard that, that is one of the many stories that i have heard.
9:36 am
let's keep going. thanks for this program, enjoyed the book. what is up next for caroline janney in terms of book projects? that is from hampton newsom who has a lot of great stuff. that is what we have now and i will check in before we sign off but back on the road we are having a good time and interesting time on the road and, oh, this is something that is really interesting. suddenly the story of appomattox involves other places, no longer confederate soldiers, winchester, virginia,
9:37 am
this is the place where women come into the story and become protagonists in the story. what is their story of the end of the war? what are those questions? >> guest: there are 20,000 soldiers who weren't paroled at appomattox and some of them had gone home to their homes. others had gone and are waiting in the shenandoah valley to be called up by their officers to fight again because it becomes quickly apparent to grant that he needs to issue these paroles, should be extended to all the fragments of the army of northern virginia as he faces it and immediately even before the surrender ceremony has happened at appomattox to
9:38 am
the east of appomattox, some of those men are convalescing in hospitals and the vast majority are men who should have been at appomattox and they have not surrendered, they hear about these paroled terms which many did not expect to be so generous and magnanimous and they turned themselves in. this happens in lynchburg as well and it happens as far as winchester. i was really surprised at the number of men that were paroled in winchester. around his album but i found so far and there are more out there, hancock in command there and not only does he have the exchange of letters but has it published, nailed up throughout winchester and the laurel valley and that is evidence of
9:39 am
this really did happen. for any naysayers who might not believe that we have actually surrendered here's evidence and a stern warnings, come in, get yourself paroled or be arrested and you will be in prisons, that has happened in some instances, he sends cavalry up and down the shenandoah valley, those who are willing to come in on their own will be paroled, those aren't are hauled off to prison and who knows when they will be paroled, at least they don't know in that moment. throughout virginia, the peninsula, the shenandoah valley into west virginia, maryland, even the carolinas men from lee's army are fighting their way through provost marshals and other officials and being paroled. >> surrender happening everywhere. hancock is the person a lot of people surrendered too, not grant at appomattox.
9:40 am
what was i thinking about? oh. this brings us to not everybody gets these generous terms. there is one confederate officer and his men who by name are excluded from the generous terms. >> guest: that is colonel john f mosley and he is on the list of people that grant and others despise the most and are most fearful of, being in high command and refer to them as gorillas, at first very briefly excluded from these blankets paroles, hancock will play a role in this and mosby will meet with union officials twice. they bring in front of them the
9:41 am
possibility that he will come in and surrender his command. the 40 third battalion was a pain in the neck in and around northern virginia. this is another undercurrent throughout the book that grant, and sherman, are fearful of guerrilla warfare. talking about alexander and his question to lee, but even though it might not have been the reality there is a fear that we cannot underestimate confederates refusing to seek parole in fighting the war by other means via guerrilla warfare so mosby is high on that list throughout the story.
9:42 am
>> host: this brings us north from north and west to appomattox. you turn the perspective a little bit, to dispersal of the army at the end of the war also affects the loyal states. whether the decisions people make in the loyal states, to suddenly, wait a minute. they are everywhere. in maryland and other places. >> that's a really important point. it is not just a story of what happens in virginia or the former confederacy. this is spilling out. none more so than states the remain loyal to the union, the border states as we call them and the big question is going to be for hancock, grant, the attorney general of the united
9:43 am
states, whether or not confederate soldiers from those states, specifically maryland, kentucky, delaware, not west virginia, whether or not they can return to their homes. have they committed such a crime in leaving their loyal states and going to fight for the rebel army that they no longer have homes? and without getting into all of that, there is so much we could get into here. this is a problem and that is the problem local citizens will take into their own hands and if the united states government is not going to effectively deal with this then they will deal with this. west virginia becomes its own unique case because grant and speed both say west virginia doesn't like this. it was part of virginia and when virginia left west virginia didn't exist so there
9:44 am
was an ordinance of secession so people can go back there. west virginia don't like the sound of this. 18,000 confederates who fought for the confederacy. this is going to be really problematical. >> host: they left the succeeding state and are returning to a loyalist state. >> guest: what happens if they are paroled, pardoned, granted citizenship back and then now they are a voting block? what is going to play out then? and why do we want these disloyal men back in our midst? one thing to send confederates home to state that seceded when the vast majority of the population supported the confederacy. it is another system to send them to places there aren't wanted and it becomes clear in the summer of 65.
9:45 am
>> host: i will tell you this. this happens all the time and we should be getting used to it in a house divided. somewhere in the deck of 10 minutes left in the interview everybody watching suddenly gets ah hah! now i have a question! i love questions, i read them to myself later but let's go to the folks watching on facebook live, some great questions over here and i will feed you a few. it depends on how much time you have. i don't want us to go a long time, five minutes. >> we could do five minutes. >> depends on how quickly you
9:46 am
answer the questions. lynn this'll wants to know how certifiable were the paroles? is their watermark? how did someone tell they were looking at a genuine paroled passed? >> guest: i assume you mean parole pass and just to clarify there are parole lists that were kept. all of these lists were compiled different from the parole pass that was issued to each individual man that were mass printed at appomattox like the one you showed, three different designs is another story for another time and not given a break for calling the regiment or in some cases, to be clear it is not union officers or union soldiers who
9:47 am
were them. and to certify this will. wanting to show. he in that area from appomattox. just north of danbill, southward the carolinas and the officer decides we can't stay together. there are blank passes and a handful of instances through letters and diaries that people recount a great pass. two soldiers into maryland who get into hot water with a maryland congressman do one of them says he has a blank pass. there is no way to certify that. the paroles issued in places
9:48 am
like winchester, more information on those paroles, they included discussion of the person, their hair color, eye color, complexion, physical descriptions that i think are meant in part to be a legitimacy test. those parole passes that art from appomattox were issued by union officials. >> host: we have a question from doug in kentucky. he has written a good question. let me look at it quickly before -- okay. good question. doug says i imagine the
9:49 am
surrender, when the surrender occurred the confederate currency was crushed 20. so particularly among confederate soldiers was there a great amount of theft, robbery, physical violation on the road home? >> that is one of the questions i was looking for because that is the curbside of the ashley wilkes image that we have and it certainly happened, but more often than not at least in the accounts that are left, the homefront and the soldiers themselves many of them kept diaries on their way home, they were meticulous in who provided them shelter and who did not provide them shelter, people who refused them but there were numerous instances in which
9:50 am
they do talk about taking especially from african-americans, in particular quartermaster depots and they lined several of them along the way outside of virginia, danphil, virginia there's a reason they're heading to some of these places, they know there are stores of food and other provisions so it did happen. i think it happened less than i expected i might find. >> okay. thank you very much, doug, dave bradley from the uk wants to know what you agree bradley's admonishment against guerrilla warfare and grant's generous terms begins the number of x confederates becoming lawless gorillas? >> i think if i was a betting person i would say yes, it did.
9:51 am
this is part of the reason grant is so adamant that the paroles be upheld, something i dig into in the second half of the book when many of johnson's cabinet are questioning whether this should be upheld and implementing if we don't uphold them this could devolve into something much worse so i think grant, as much as grant's insistence on upholding the terms of parole, others are questioning the extent, the blanket pardon, talk about the legal realities in much of the book but grant was instrumental in creating more of that violence, we might expect a lot more.
9:52 am
>> host: thank you very much. i have one more thing i want to share because it has something to do with parole versus pass an oath of allegiance. it's something i can share with you. behind me, a close-up, this is one, if you decide to go out and get yourself and abraham lincoln signature, this is one of the most common abraham lincoln signatures that exists, and endorsement. most of the time it is cut off of the letter, very popular, i didn't do it, by the way, people did it a long time ago when collecting lincolns. lincoln probably wrote more than any other time let this man take the oath of december 8th, 1863, and be
9:53 am
discharged, abe lincoln, signed december 31, 1864, and in this case for those who want to see it later, it is signed by a lincoln and andrew johnson. we were just talking, how many times with those men in the same room together? may be three. this is a very interesting very interesting lincoln but what it tells us as it refers to let this man take the oath of december 8th, 1863, and to be discharged to. what is the law that lincoln is talking about and how does that affect these confederates at the end of the war? >> in december of 63 lincoln issued what became known as the 10% brand that would pardon any confederates below kernel to voluntarily surrender, put down
9:54 am
his weapon. johnson when he comes into office is wondering to what extent lincoln's wartime program, wartime pardon policy is amnesty. there is a difference between amnesty and pardon. amnesty is a blanket that covers almost everyone can you stand up the oath, and your pardon, those were excluded under amnesty have to apply individually. their version of all of this is a pardon did imply protection from prosecution. you could not be prosecuted if you were issued a pardon. the question is have the parole passes, had the paroles already served that function or was there going to be a next step, would you have to follow through with a pardon? this is one of the really contentious issues especially
9:55 am
among andrew johnson and grant in the summer of 1865. >> all right. thank you very much, everybody, for participating. i have to get back to the issues at hand and there is so much we didn't cover, this is such a great book, we didn't cover what congressman harris did in maryland, you have to read about it. you talked about the two confederate soldiers who testified against, we didn't talk much about west virginia and all of that, there is so much more to talk about them appomattox and all that. you need to get the book in the book is "ends of war: the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox". from the university of north carolina press and we once again thank for publishing this book and helping set of this
9:56 am
book signing and interview. illustrations, maps and i forgot to write down the press but presumably you can go to our website and we will send it to you. >> american history tv looking back at the holidays in the nation's capital throughout the years. >> washington, montana, south dakota, which includes the study of natural resources in addition to many other things. along the road today our monument events taking place as hundreds of millions of people are moving towards personal liberty. it gives us great hope that
9:57 am
there may be a time, the globe itself, we, forward to a younger conflict and all the monumental events that have taken place this is primarily a season of family and friendship, personal relations. with those in congress, the best wishes, merry christmas and happy holiday season. now i ask my colleagues as this is a beacon of hope and a symbol of our celebration of this holy season. [cheers and applause] ♪♪
9:58 am
>> watch more history of the holidays online, our weekly series the presidency highlights the politics, policies and legacies of us presidents and first lady. we took a look at gerald ford, the only white house occupant never to have been elected vice president or president. he took office on august 9th, 1974, after president nixon's resignation. in grand rapids, michigan, we discussed his life and presidency. >> this is film and the first minute and a half.
9:59 am
the arc of special collections of grand rapids public library. he called me up and said i found this film and it was film shot by the father of one of the players of the aria high school team and in 1929, you see in ottawa high school, the first game of the season. it kicks off with dark uniforms, gray uniforms, gerald ford, his junior year, he is playing here and you can look at it slide by slide and with number 23 and it, ford will become the capital of the team the next year, allstate player, state championship, and it will come appearing just a minute in freeze-frame so you can see the
10:00 am
footage of gerald ford playing high school football. just a minute, you will see number 23 coming in from the right hand side. slow it down and there he is, junior ford, number 23. >> watch the full program and other presidency programs on our website, .. your program right >> today we're going to talk about the tomb of the unknown soldier. this is the >> and this is the 100th anniversary of a the truman of e tomb of the unknown soldier in the capitol and talking about that and given a little perspective, you see how the orze


info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on