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tv   January 6 Hearings Second Hearing on Investigation of Capitol Attack  CSPAN  June 13, 2022 10:45am-12:59pm EDT

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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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>> the select committee to investigate the january 6th attacks on the united states capital will be in order. without objection the chair is on the rise to declare the committee in recess at any point. pursuant to house deposition authority regulation can, the
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chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during today's hearing. good morning. last week the select committee laid out a preview of our initial findings about the conspiracy overseeing and directed by donald trump, to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election and block the transfer of power, a scheme unprecedented in american history. my colleagues and i don't want to spend time talking about ourselves during these hearings, but as someone who is run for office a few times, i can tell you at the end of a campaign it all comes down to the numbers. the numbers tell you the winner and a loser. for the most part the numbers don't lie. but if something doesn't add up with the numbers, you go to
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court to get resolution. and that's the end of the line. we accept those results. that's what it needs to respect the rule of law. that's what it means to seek elective office in our democracy. democracy. because those numbers aren't just numbers. they are votes. they are your votes. they are the will and the voice of the people, and the very least we should expect from any person seeking a position of public trust is the acceptance of the will of the people, win or lose. donald trump didn't. he didn't have the numbers. he went to court. he still didn't have the numbers. he lost. but he betrayed the trust of the american people. he ignored the will of the voters. he lied to his supporters and the country. and he tried to remain in office after the people had voted him out, and the courts upheld the will of the people.
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this morning will tell the story of how donald trump lost an election, and knew he lost an election, and as a result of his loss, decided to wage an attack on our democracy. an attack on the american people by trying to rob you of your voice in our democracy. and in doing so lit the fuse the lead to a horrific violence of january 6, when a mob of his supporters storm the capital sent by donald trump to stop the transfer of power. today, my colleague from california ms. lofgren and our witnesses will detail the select committees findings on these matters. but first i will recognize our distinguished vice chair ms. cheney of wyoming for any opening statement she would care to offer. >> thank you very much, mr. cha. last week as the chairman noted our committee begin outlining a
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seven part plan overseen by president trump to overturn the 2020 election. today we will begin looking at the initial part of that plan. president trump's ever to convince millions of americans that the election was stolen from him by overwhelming fraud. a federal court has already reviewed elements of the committee's evidence on this point, , and said this, quote, n the months following the election numerous credible sources from the president's inner circle, the agency leadership and statisticians, informed president trump and dro evidence of election fraud, closed court. sufficient overturn the 2020 presidential election. the court opinion methodically document east of the principal reasons for that conclusion, and i would urge all those watching to read it. today we will begin to show the
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american people some of our evidence. today you will hear much more from a former attorney general bill barr's recorded testimony. and you will hear in greater detail what others in the department told president trump, that his claims of election fraud or nonsense. you also are much more from president trump's own campaign experts who had also concluded that his fraud claims could not be supported. let me focus briefly unjust three points now. first, you will hear firsthand testimony that the president campaign advisers urged him to await the counting of votes and not to declare victory on election night. the president understood even before the election that many more biden voters had voted by mail because president trump ignored the advice of his campaign experts and told his supporters only to vote in person. donald trump kneeled before the election that the counting of those -- new -- would not begin
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until late in the day and would not be complete for multiple days. this was expected, reported and widely known. you will also testimony president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night, and instead followed the course recommended by an apparently inebriated rudy giuliani, to just claim he won. and insist that the vote counting stop. to falsely claim everything was fraudulent. he falsely told the american people that the election was not legitimate. in his words, quote, a major fraud. millions of americans believed him. second, pay attention to what donald trump and his legal team said repeatedly about dominion voting machines. far-flung conspiracies with deceased venezuelan communist
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allegedly pulling the strings. this was, quote, complete nonsense, as bill barr said. president trump's own campaign advisers come his department of justice and is cybersecurity experts all told him the same thing, here for example, his white house lawyer eric herschmann, use was shared by many of the trump team whom we interviewed. >> i thought the dominion stuff was, i notice any evidence whatsoever to sustain those allegations. >> and third, as mike pence's staff started to get a sense for what donald trump had planned for january 6th, they called the campaign experts to give them a briefing on election fraud and all the other election claims. on january 2 the general counsel of the trump campaign, matthew morgan, this is a campaigns chief lawyer, summarized with the campaign had concluded weeks
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earlier, that none of the arguments about fraud or anything else could actually changed the outcome of the election. >> general discussed on that topic was whether the fraud, abuse or irregularities, if aggregated favorably to the campaign without the outcome determinative. and i think everyone assessment in the room at least amongst the staff, marc short, myself and greg jacob was that not sufficient to be outcome determinative. >> as is obvious to him this was before the attack on the capitol. capitol. the trump campaign legal team knew there was no legitimate argument, fraud, irregularities or anything to overturn the election. and yet president trump went ahead with his plans for january 6th anyway.
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mr. chairman, hundreds of our countrymen have faced criminal charges. many are serving criminal sentences because they believed what donald trump said about the election, and they acted on it. they came to washington, d.c. at his request. they marched on the capitol at his request. and hundreds of them besieged and invaded the building at the heart of our constitutional republic. as one conservative editorial board put it recently, quote, mr. trump betrayed his supporters by conning them on january 6th, and he is still doing it. another conservative editorial board that is long supported president trump said last week, donald trump, coal, won't stop insisting that the 2020 was stolen, even though he is offered no proof that that is true. and this, donald trump now,,
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quote, clings to more fantastical theories such as the neste scissors debunked 2000 mule, even as recounts in arizona, georgia and wisconsin confirmed trump lost. those are the correct conclusions to draw from the evidence gathered by this committee. we have much more evidence to show the american people on this that we can reasonably show in one hearing. but today we will begin. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> without objection, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, ms. lofgren for an opening statement. >> well, thank you, mr. chairman. in our open carry we gave an overview of our investigation into the january 6th attack, the plot to overthrow the election was complex and had many parts which we will explore in the remaining weeks. today we examine the false narrative that the 2020 election
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was, quote, stoler. former president trump's blend overturn the election relied on a sustained effort to deceive millions of americans with knowingly false claims of election fraud. all elements of the plot relied on convincing his supporters about these false claims. today, we will demonstrate the 2020 election was not stolen. the american people elected president joe biden. we will present evidence that mr. trump's claims of election fraud were false, that he and his closest advisers knew those claims were false, but they continue to peddle them anyway, right up until the moment before a mob of trump supporters attacked the capital. we will also show that the trump campaign used these false claims of election fraud to raise hundreds of millions of dollars from supporters who were told their donations were for the legal fight in the courts.
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but the trump campaign didn't use the money for that. the big lie was also a big ripoff. the former president laid the groundwork for these false claims well in advance of the election, as early as april 2020 mr. trump claimed that the only way he could lose an election would be as a result of fraud. >> do you know the things we're bundling on all the things that are happening with votes imail, where thousands of votes are gathered and i'm not going to say which party does it, but thousands of votes are gathered and their coming and there jumped in a location of that all of a sudden you lose elections if you think you're going to win. >> the only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. remember that. it's the only way we're going to lose this election. >> this is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. did you see what's going on? take a look at west virginia mailmen selling the palace. they're being sold, being dumped
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and rivers. this is a horrible thing for our country. >> this is not -- >> this is not going to end well. >> mr. trump decided even before the election that regardless of the facts and the truth, if you lost the election he would claim it was rigged. mr. trump was right about one thing. it did not end well. on election night mr. trump claimed even before the votes were counted that his loss was result of fraud. on thursday with testimony from attorney general barr about the department of justice investigation of mr. trump's fraud claims. barr told trump correct directly his claims are bs. yet after hearing the truth and that morning from the ag, mr. trump continue to battle the false claims of fraud. you will hear detailed testimony from attorney general barr describing the various election
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fraud claims the department of justice investigated. he will tell you how he told mr. trump repeatedly that there was no merit to those claims. mr. barr will tell us that mr. trump's election night claims of fraud were made without regard to the truth, and before it was even possible to look for evidence of fraud. .. it didn't stop him from pushing the false claim and urging his supporters to quote, like hell.
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to quote, take back their country. after he lost the election various legal challenges will me were'll hear testimony from a renowned republican board who explained the normal process by which candidates challenge an election. rather than rather than accept the results of an election and the decisions of the courts mister trump pursued a different strategy: he tried to convince the american people the election had been stolen. many of his supporters believe him and many still believe him today.the attack on january 6 was a direct and predictable result of mister trump's decision to use false claims of election fraud to overturn the election and claim power. mister chairman, i yieldback . >> thank you very much. i'm now welcome our first witness. we are joined today by former fox news politics editor chris steigerwald. built stallion, president trumps armor campaign manager
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was subpoenaed to be here and was in washington this morning prepared to testify. kevin marino, mister steffy and his attorney is with us here today. thank you for coming and he was advised, he has advised us that mister stepien's wife went intolabor this morning . mister stepien had to travel unexpectedly to be with his wife and we wish them the best. due to the depth and rigor of our investigation, these several hours of mister stepien's testimony from when we interviewed him in february we will bepresenting that testimony today . i'll mouse swear in our witness. the witness will please stand and raise his righthand . >> do you swear or affirm on under penalty of perjury that
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the testimony you're about to hear is the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth will help you god ? thank you. you may be seated. let the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself for questions. i want to start by showing a video that tells the story of what was going on in thetrump white house on election night in november 2020 . >> do you remember where you were on the night of the election november 3 ? >> i was at the white house. >> do you know where specifically over the course of that night you spent your time in the white house ? >> there was an event that was organized in the restaurant so i moved between the residence room, off the residence where some family
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members were. >> i take it the president was upstairs in the residence . >> he was upstairs. we were on the first floor so not upstairs. we room were mostly with the brothers anda couple of people who wouldbe coming in and out . >> what were people expecting that day when you got to the white house ? >> i think that there was simply for people who showed up there on election night there was a more positive environment. i think people were a little bit nervous not knowing what was going to happen with the red wave or the red mirage or whether debate was being carried out. >> the fox news decision desk is calling arizona forjoe biden . that is a big gap for the biden campaign. >> arizona was called, do you remember that? >> i do. >> what do you remember when arizona was called? >> there was surprise that it
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was called. >> who was surprised? >> most everyone in the room. >> were you one of them? >> yes. >> that shift the atmosphere or attitude in thewhite house ? >> completely. >> can you describe that? >> because fox news was the first one to go out and say that. >> so was there to anger directed at fox news rather than disappointment that maybe the campaign loss arizona ? >> all of the above. >> so both anger and disappointment. >> both disappointment with fox and concern that maybe our data or our numbers weren't accurate. >> were you in the white house residence or past midnight of the early morning hours of november 4?
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>> yes. it went beyond midnight, yes. >> you remember rudy giuliani being at the whitehouse on election night and into the early hours the next morning ? >> i do. >> what you remember about when he came ? >> he ... i have heard that he was upstairs in that affirmation reception area. and he was looking to talk to the president and it was suggested instead that he come talk to several of us down off the map room. >> you said you had heard mister giuliani wanted to talk tothe president and he wasdirected your way. did you end up talking to mister giuliani ? what was that conversation ? >> a lot of conversations were directed my way.
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>> a few of us, myself, jason miller, mister clark, mark meadows gathered in a room off the map room to listen to whatever he presumably wanted to say to the president. >> was there anyone in that conversation who in your observation had had too much to drink ? >> mayor giuliani. >> tell me more about that, what was your observation about his potential intoxication during that discussion about what the president should say when he addressed the nation on election night?>> the mayor was definitely intoxicated but i did not know that his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president for example. >> was he part of any discussions with the people i mentioned, mister stepien,
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mister meadows about whether the president shouldmake any speech on election night ? >> i spoke to the president. but i spoke to the president several times that night. >> there are suggestions i believe it was to go to mayor giuliani to declare victory. >> it was far too early tobe making any calls like that . ballots were still being counted. ballots were stillgoing to be counted for days . and it was far too early to be making any predictions like that. >> i remember saying that to the best of my memory i would say we should not go to declare victory until we had a better sense of the numbers
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. >> can you be more specific about thatconversation in particular with what mayor giuliani said and anybody else in the room's response ? >> i think effectively mayor giuliani was saying we want it. where did all the votes come from? we need to go say thatwe want . and essentially that anyone who didn't agree with that position was being weak. >> what was your view ofthe time as to what we should or so shouldn't say ? >> i don't know that i had a firm view as to what he should say in that circumstance. the results were still being counted. it was becoming clear that the race would not be called on election night. >> i believe, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being
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counted. it's too early to tell. too early to call the race. but you know, we were proud of the race we ran and we think we are in good position . we will have more to say about this the next day, whatever, whenever we had something to say. >> and that anybody who was part of that conversation disagree with your message? >> yes. >> who was that? >> the president disagree with that. i don't recall the particular words. people i was wrong, he told me so and that he was going to go in a different direction. >> this is a fraud on the american public.
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this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election frankly, we did win this election. >> mister stirewalt, did president trump have any basis todeclare victory on november 4, 2020 ? >> thank you. mister stepien also testified mister president trump had no basis fordeclaring victory at that point in time . >> i believe, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted . it's too early to tell. too early to call the race. but you know, we were proud
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of the race we ran. and you know, we think we're in good position. we will have more to say about this the next day, whenever we had something to say. >> thank you. mister stirewalt, after the voteswere counted, who won the presidential election of 2020 ? >> joseph biden junior of the great state of delaware. >> thank you. that's the bottom line. we had an election, mister trump lost but he refused to accept the results of the democraticprocess . pursuant to section 5c of house resolution 503, i now recognize the gentleman from california missed lofgren for questions.
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>> thank you mister chairman. i'd like you to explain a term that was thrown around a lot during the election and that was the so-called red mirage. what does that mean? >> in the 40 or 50 years let's say that americans have increasingly chosen to vote by mail or early or absentee, democrats prefer that method of voting more than republicans do. basically in every election republicans win election day and democrats win the early vote then you wait and start counting and it depends which one you first but usually it's election day votes that get counted first and you see republicans shoot ahead at the process of bailing and binding and unbinding all those mail-in votes pennsylvania refused to count the votes first so you wait for all that the coming so
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certainly in a national election you expect to see the republican with a lead but it's not really a lead. when you put together a jigsaw puzzle it doesn't matter which piece you put in first. it ends up with the same image so for us who cares but that's because no candidate had ever tried to avail themselves of this work. we had gone to pains and i'm proud of the things we went to to make sure that we were informing viewers that this was going to happen because the trump campaign and president had been clear they were going to try to exploit this anomaly and we knew it was going to be bigger because of the percentage of early votes was higher. we went from 45 percent higher to because of the pandemic increased byabout 50 percent so we knew it would be longer . we want to keep telling viewers a look, the number you see here is sort of irrelevant because it's only a small percentage.
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>> so this red eyes, that's what you expected to happen on election night. >> happens every time. >> thank you mister stirewalt. i'd like to play a clip of attorney general william barr who alsoexplained what he expected to happen on election night . >> right out of the box on election night president claimed that there was major fraud under way. i mean, this happens as far as i can tell before there was actually any evidence. it seems to be based on the dynamic that at the end of the evening a lot of democratic votes came in which changed the vote counts in certain states and that seems to be the basis for this broad claimthat there was major fraud . and i didn't think much of that because people have been talking for weeks and everyone understood for weeks that that was going to be what happened on election night .
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>> mister stepien obviously could not be with us today is proper for him to be with his wife as they have the birth of their child but he also had discussions with the president about thered bar i . that is it would be a long night and early votes would favor him but that lots more votes would be counted over the course of the night and the days after a play clip 1 from our interview with mister stepien. >> i've recounted back to that conversation with him in which i said just like i said in 2016 was going to be a long night. i told him in 2020 that there was going to be a process again as the early returns are going to be there and were going to be right watching the returns, they rolled in thereafter.
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>> is it fair to say you were trying to present what you thought would be a realistic picture of whatmight happen over the course of that election night ? >> yes. i always you know, told the president the truth and i think he expected that from me. i told him it was goingto be a process . it was going to be, we would wait and see how this turned out. just like i did in 2016 i did the same thing in 2020. >> was what a short clip of president trump speaking after you receive that information from his campaign advisors. >> we want all voting to stop
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. we don't want them to find any balance at 4:00 in the morning and add them to the list . >> when former president trump said that, it contradicted what his advisers had warned would happen. we all know mail-in ballots play an important role in the 2010 elections. however president trump continuously discouraged mail-in. mister stepien was so concerned about the president's position on mail in voting in the summer of 2020 met with president trump along with house minority leader kevin mccarthy. let's play clip 4. >> the meeting that was sad, in particular i invited kevin mccarthy to join the meeting. heating of like mind on the issue. in which we made our case for
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why we believe mail in voting not to be a bad thing for his campaign . but you know, the presidents mind was made up and he understands you know, how many times to go to the well on a particular topic. >> tell me more about the argument that you mister mccarthy made to the presidents and why it wasn't a bad thing that mail in voting wasavailable . >> largely there are two pillars that argument both of which i previously mentioned. one, to urge your voters to vote early on election day, please allow the chance.
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and be, i also previously mentioned the fact that the trump campaign, republican national committee, republican national party had an advantage of grassroots workers and volunteers on the ground that would allow an advantage to enhance returns of ballots that were held. those were the two pillars of the theory. >> and what if anything you recall representativemccarthy saying during that meeting ? >> we were going the same arguments and his words echoed mine and vice versa on those two topics. >> mister stirewalt you were at the decision at fox news on election night and you call arizona early for president biting whichwas controversial . how do you make that call and where did you think the race do it in the early hours of
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the next day? >> it was really controversial to our competitors who we beat so badly by making the correct call first. our decisions desk was the best in the business and i was proud to be part of. because we have partnered with the associated press national opinion research center at the university of chicago next to my colleague and friend in michigan and built a wonderful device for forecasting the outcomes of elections so we had a different set of data that our competitors did. we had more research a better system and a great team. so what you're going to see is do the actual votes match up with the expectations in the polls? the real votes are testing the quality of your targeted precincts.
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and let me tell you our poll in arizona was beautiful and it was doing just what we wanted to do and it was coming up just right and at some point and i forget exactly but at some point it became clear that arizona was getting ready to make a call so we around my boss bill and that were not making any call until everybody says yes because that was always our policy . you have to understand in this room you have the best people from academia. democrats, republicans, a broad cross-section of people who had worked together for a decade and who were serious about this stuff. we knew it would be a consequential call because it was one of five states that really matter . georgia, arizona were the ones that we were watching we knew it would be significant call into one of those five we knew trumps chances were small and getting smaller by what we had seen. we were to make the call early. we were able to beat the competition. we looked around the room. everybody says yea and on we go and by the time wefound out , everybody was freaking
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out and losing their minds over this call we were already trying to call the next day. we were in georgia, north carolina. we were looking at these other states so we we were pleased not surprised. >> after the election as of november 7, in your judgment what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> after that point? number i guess it's always possible that you could have a truckload of ballots be found somewhere i suppose but once you get into this space, ahead of today i thought about what are the largest margins that could ever be overturned by a recap. the kind of stuff we heard mike pence talking about sounding like a normal republican where we will see
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every challenge. nothing like that. the recounts, you're talking about hundreds of votes. when we think about calling the race one of the things we would think about is is it outside the margin of recap and when we think about that margin we thinkabout in modern history are talking about thousand votes, 1500 votes away outside . normally you're talking about hundreds of votes, maybe 300 votes change so the idea that through any normal process, remember hehad to do it three times . he needed three of these days to change in order to do that , you're better off to play the powerball and to have that come in. >> on november 7 the other major news at what's called the race for president biting . now, mister stepien told the committee he thought the odds were very, very, very bleak and held a meeting with the president that same day show video clip eight . >> each day that more on the
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trajectory of the race on election night , trump had in many states as that war on as the fourth became the fifth and so on and so forth, the vote by mail ballots were cast you've got trumps lead grew more narrow and in some places by then surpassed trump in vote totals. as the week wore on we paid attention to those numbers multiple times a day. i was growing less confident for sure. >> what were your feelings on the state of the election at that point ? >> very bleak. we told him, the group that went over there outlined my belief and chances for
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success at this point and then we pegged it at five, maybe 10 percent on recounts that were either automatically initiated or could be initiated based on realistically legal challenges. not all the legal challenges and had actually been pursued but you know, biden's lead was 5 to 10 percent, a very good optimistic outlook. >> as president trump and others continued to claim the election was stolen , there were lawyers who were part of the campaign, campaign lawyers who were responsible for investigating the fraud claims. that includes alex shannon who cannot validate the claims that were being made including those being made by
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the president. let's roll video 15. >> this is an email. it's 2 emails actually. the first is to you and kate mcpherson and you forward that email on to mark meadows, justin clark and jason miller the subject being federal id voters. if you look at the original email their access bill, we completed the ac analysis. i assume that arizona because of the substantial uncertainty surrounding the databases, this is a highly unreliable way to identify ineligiblevoters . can you explain the task giftedness cabin for this arizona analysis? >> sure. previously i described some of my frustration with some of the claims that people
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would throw out to president trump regarding email. you need to look at this, this happened in this state or that happened in that state and those would go to us to look into. i talked aboutthat before i think . this is an example of that. i recall in arizona someone had thrown out i believe this to be a claim that there were thousands of illegal citizens . people not eligible to vote having counterbalanced in arizona. someone had thrown out that claim to president trump and with the margin being as close as it was, that could intentionally balance. so while claims thrown out
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which is on the face it seems realistic or possible. i asked alex to look at the claim and i haven't read the full email but i recall the response to that, the reality of that was it was not illegal citizens voting in the election, they were overseas voters. so obviously people who were eligible to vote. >> when these findings were passed up the chain to president trump he became frustrated and he replaced the campaign's legal team. let's play clip 14. >> i think the president it was during the second week. when things like these were occurring where he wasgrowing , increasingly upset with me,
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less so because i was less involved at this point. but still growing increasingly unhappy with justin clark and that the way for justin to be moved out and mayor giuliani to be moved in as first in chart of the legal side of the campaign at that point. >> when mister stepien became campaign manager he was the second trump campaign manager for the 20/20 race and there were only about 115 days until election day so let's play the video. >> i inherited a campaign that was the day i was hired was as president's low point
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in the 20/20 daily average polling against president biting. it was a campaign for low point in the polls. it was structurally and specifically inefficient. it was a great deal wrong with the campaign in both of those areas. so most of my day was spent fixing want, and i think i took over with 115 names left in the campaign most of my time was spent fixing things that could befixed with 115 days left in the campaign . >> mister stepien has been in the campaign field for a long time and he worked for lots of different candidates in campaigns. he testified to this committee about his concern given the claims that mister
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giuliani and miss powell and their team were making publicly . let's play a clip 15. >> it was important for me and mister stepien to hold that for our own personal reputation. we do not want to be associated with what you are hearing from mister giuliani and the other team that stepped in and your departure . >> i didn't mind being categorized. there were two groups we call them my team and rudy's team. my team characterized as part of team normal as the reporters started to do around that point in time. i think hours ago early on i been doing this for a long time. 25 years. i said political ideologies from trump to mccain to bush to christie.
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i can work under a lot of circumstances for a lot of very candidates and politicians, but the situation where ... and along the way i felt i hope a good reputation for being honest and professional and i just think what was happening was not necessarily on the board professional at that point in time so that led to me stepping away. >> so the president did get rid of team normal and i like to play a clip showing that the president found the people he needed to perpetuate these claims of fraud. >> they saw a big truck bringing in 100,000 ballots in garbage cans, and waste paper baskets. in cardboard boxes and in shopping baskets and every
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single one of them was for biden because they would be notified by smartmatic that biden was way behind and they better come up with ballots and we can prove everything single thing ijust said . >> i couldprobably turn around each one of these states . if you let me examine each one of those ballots i would pull out enough that were fraudulent that would shake the hell outof the country . >> they consent to run an algorithm that probably ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from president trump and flipped them to president biting which we might never have uncovered had to vote for president trump not been so overwhelming in so many of these states that it broke the algorithm. >> i remember one of the things mark said at some point was you can't show an actual vote was flipped which i found at the time to be a
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remarkable assertion. because ... because you don't have to have the gun to see the body lying on the floor bleeding out with five bullet holes in it was killed by a gun . >> what they were proposing i thought was not. and it in theory was also completely nuts. different things have been floating around just who was involved. shop as and venezuela, something with the philippines. it was just all off the rail. >> did you ever share mister kushner your view of mister giuliani with respect to the president?
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>> i guess ... yes. >> tell me what said. >> that it's basically not the approach i would take if i were you. >> how did president trump react when you shared that vote within ? >> i have confidence in rudy. >> i think i had conversations all who were signed up to assist on election day. just they were disengaged with the campaign. the general consensus was that the law firms were not comfortable making the argument that rudy giuliani was making publicly. they seem to recall i had a similar conversation with most all of them. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was: and putting up this stuff which i told the president was bullshit.
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i didn't want to be part of that and that's one of the reasons i made on deciding to leave when i did. >> even sidney powell defending herself in a defamation lawsuit brought by dominion voting systems argued that quote, no reasonable person would conclude that her statements were truly statements of fact . mister chairman i yield back. >> i think the witness for joining us today. first panel is now dismissed. >> without objection the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from california miss lofgren .
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>> misterchairman . last week, we presented the testimony of former attorney general bill barr who testified before this committee. today we present additional evidence including his testimony that former president trump started making claims of election fraud immediately after the election and that barr concluded the claims were untrue. due to the length of his testimony we will include relevant portions at the hearing today. so let's play the video. >> the apartment in fact when we received specific and credible allegations of fraud made an effort to look into these to satisfy ourselves that they were without merit. i was in the posture of trying to figure out, there
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was an avalanche of all these allegations offraud that built up over a number of days and it was like playing laughable because something would come out one day and the next day it would be another issue . i was influenced by the fact that all the early claims i understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. so i didn't consider the quality of claims right out of the box to get me in a feeling that there was really substance here. >> for the first time since the election the attorney general spoke personally with the president on november 23 and this was at the white house . let's play the video please. >> on november 23 i hadn't spoken to the president since the election and in fact as i said since the middle of october roughly .
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and it was getting awkward because obviously he had lost the election and i hadn't said anything to him so i simply said i think it's time you come over here. so i came over to meet with the president in the oval office and meadows and cippoloni were there and this was leading up to the conversation with kushner . the president said there had been major fraud and that as soon as the facts were out the results of the election would be reversed. he went on on this for quite a while as he's prone to do. then he got to something i was expecting which is to say that apparently the department of justice doesn't think that it has a role of looking into these fraud claims and i said that has to be the campaign that raises that with the state. the department doesn't take sides in elections and the
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department is not an extension of your legal team. our role is to investigate fraud and if we will look at something if it's specific, credible and affected the outcome of the election and we're doing that and it's just not meritorious. they're not panning out. as i walked out of the oval office jared was there with dan sabino who ran his, ran the presidents social media and who i believe is a reasonable guy. and i said how long is he going to carry on with this: election stuff, where is this going to go? i that time meadows had caught up with me and leaving the office and caught up with me and said that he said look, i think that he's becoming more realistic and
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knows that there's a to how far he can take this and jared said we're workingon this, we're working on it . >> even after his attorney general told him these claims of election fraud were false, president trump continued to promote these claims. >> i felt that things continue to deteriorate between the 23rd and the weekend of the 29th and then on november 29 he appeared on maria part alone most show sunday futures i believe it was. and he said that the department was missing in action. >> we had glitches where they moved thousands of votes from my account to biden's account and these are glitches so they are not glitches, there are in their absolute fraud. his election was over and then ate it. they call them big dumps,
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massive stumps in michigan and pennsylvania all over. how the fbi and department of justice, i don't know, maybe they're involved but how people are allowed to get away with this stuff is unbelievable. >> spurred by what he saw, barr told the associated press that there was no evidence of election fraud and immediately after attorney general barr's statement went public trump nearly fired barr but he persisted in telling the president there was no evidence to supportfraud claims . >> this got under my skin but i also felt it was time for me to say something so i had, i set up a lunch with the ap reporter mike. and i told him at lunch, made the statement that to date we have not seen fraud on the
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scale that would have affected a different outcome in theelection . i had a later meeting scheduled at the white house at 3:00 with meadows. this was previously scheduled so i knew this was going to, and i went over there and i told my secretary i thought i would probably be fired and i would go home. i said you might have to pack up for when i got over there i met with the chief of staffand he said the president was angry . he didn't really get into the issue of thefraud . and then i went up to pat cippoloni's office and we were talking with each other. work came down he wanted us both to go to the oval and the president was as mad as i had ever seen himand he was trying to control himself . the president said you're
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killing me, you didn't have to say this. you might ask must have said this because you hate trump and he raised the big vote dumped as he called it in detroit. and he said people saw boxes coming into the counting station at all hours of the morning and so forth and i explained to him at that point i knew the exact number of precepts in detroit, i think it was 630 something. i said president, there are 630 precincts in detroit and unlike elsewhere in the state they centralize the counting process so they are not counted in each precinct. there moved the counting stations so the normal process was involved, boxes coming in at all different hours. i said did anyone point out to you, did all the people complaining point out you did better in detroit than you did last time? there's no indication offraud in detroit . and i told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public
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was bullshit. that the claims of fraud were bullshit and hewas indignant about that . and i reiterated that they'd wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. i specifically raised the dominion voting machines which i found to be among the most disturbing allegations. disturbing in the sense that i saw zero basis for the allegations but they were made in such a sensational way that they obviously were influencing a lot of people, members of the public that there was this systemic corruption in the system and their votes didn't count and these machines controlled by somebody else were determining it which was complete nonsense and it was
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being laid out there and i told them that it was crazy stuff and they were wasting their time on this. and it was doing great, great disservice to the country. >> okay, so the very next day the president releases video rehashing some of the same claims that his chief law enforcement officer had told him were quote, nonsense. >> here's an example. this is michigan. at 6:31 in themorning , a vote dumped of 149,000 772 votes came in. unexpectedly.we were winning by a lot. that batch was received in horror. we have a company that's very suspect. itsname is domain in . with the turn of the dial or
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the change of a chip, you can press a button for trump and the vote goes to biden. what kind of a system is this ? >> barr again told the president there was nothing to these claims on december 14. >> when i walked in, sat down he went off on monologue saying that there was now definitive evidence involving fraud through the dominion machines and a report had been prepared by a very reputable cyber security firm which he identified as allied purity operations that held up the report and he asked that a copy of it be made for me and while a copy was being made he said this is absolute proof that dominion machines
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were raped. the report means that i was going to be having a second term and then he gave me a copy of the report and as he talkedmore and more about it , i sat there flipping through the report and looking through it and to be frank it looked very amateurish to me. didn't have the credentials of the people involved for i didn't see any real qualifications and the statements were made very conclusory. like these machines were designed to engage in fraud or something to that effect but i didn't see any supporting information to that effect and i was demoralized because old boy, if he believes this stuff he has lost compact. he's become detached from reality if he really believes this stuff. on the other hand when i went
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into this and would tell him how crazy some of these claims were there was never an indication of interest in what the actual facts were. my opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud. and i haven't seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that. including the 2000 mules. >> maybe you can assess that when people are talking about that. >> just in a nutshell, i just think the dbi was unimpressed with it and i was similarly unimpressed with it because i think i was holding my fire on that to see what the photographic evidence was.
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they have a lot of photographs of the same person dumping a lot of ballots in different boxes that's hard to explain . so i wanted to see what the photographic evidence was but the cell phone data is singularly unimpressive. i mean, basically if you take 2 million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like or wherever, just by definition are going to find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes and the premise that if you go by five boxes or whatever it was. by definition you're going to have hundreds. so one contractor said we figured out our truck alone wouldaccount for six cell phone signals . this was some kind of contractor. our route would take us by
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these things on a regular basis. but then when the movie came out , i think the photographic evidence of it was lacking. there was a little bit of it but it was lacking and it didn't establish widespread illegal harvesting. the other thing people don't understand is that it's not clear that even if you can show harvesting thatthat changes the results of the election . courts are not going to throw up votes and then figure out what votes were harvested. it's still the burden on the challenging party to show that illegal votes were cast. votes were the result of undue influence or bribes or the person was non-compost
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mantis but absent that evidence i just didn't see courts throwing up votes anyway. i felt that before the election it was possible to talk sense to the president and while you sometimes had to engage in a big wrestling match with him it was possible to keep things on track but i felt that after the election he didn't seem to be listening and i didn't think that i was inclined not to stay around if he wasn't listening to advice from me or his other cabinet secretaries. >> on december 14 barr quit. the attorney general wasn't the only person that told the president's claims were false . other officials and close advisers told him the same thing . >> rather than try to address a counterfactual, let me say
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there were instances where the president would say people are telling me this or i've heard this or i saw on television this impropriety and a map from pennsylvania or something and he was in a position to say people have already looked at that. you're being giventhat information, that's not correct . it demonstrates being incorrect from our point of view. >> a month or so after election day, at that meeting various allegations of fraud were discussed. and you know, eric and pat told the group, the president concluded that those allegations have been substantiated to the point where they could be the basis
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for any litigation challenge to the election. >> president trumps on vice president and his top advisers also knew there wasn't evidence to support the claims that thepresident was making . >> anyone else other than mister meadows who asked you about the status outside of your legal group mister morgan and the others had mentioned were able to ask you thestatus of what you are finding in your assessment on ? >> yes sir. >> who was that? >> peter navarro. >> when did you talk to mister navarro? >> mid-november. >> around the same time as mister meadows -mark. >> yes sir. >> tell meabout a conversation . >> i recall him asking me questions about dominion and
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maybe some other categories of allegations of voter fraud . and i remember telling him that i didn't believe the dominion allegations because i thought the hand recount in georgia would resolve any issues with the technology problem and with dominion and dominion flipping votes. and i mentioned that time that the cisa had released a report saying the election was secure and i believe mister navarro accused me of being an agent of the deep state against the president and i never took another phone call mister navarro. >> anyone else besides mister meadows that you had discussions with inquiring about what you are finding in your review of these
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allegations that were pouring in? >> i believe i had about a 15 second conversation with the vice president about it as well . >> when was that? >> during one of the visits to the white house. i don't know which one. i think it was the first one innovember . i had met him briefly at the campaign and he remembered me and saw me. and he asked what i was doing on the campaign and i told him that we were looking into some of the issues related to voter fraud. he asked me i don't remember his exact words. but he asked me if we were finding anything and i said that i, i was not personally finding anything sufficient
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to alter the results of the election and he thanked me. that was our interaction. >> at a later hearing you'll hear live testimony from the former acting deputy attorney general of the department of justice rich on you but now i like to play a portion of his testimony . >> i tried to again put this into perspective and further put it in clear terms to the president and i said something to the effect of sir, we've done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. the major allegations are not supported by theevidence. we looked atgeorgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada . we're doing our job . much of the allegations are false and i went into for instance this thing from
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michigan, this report about 68 percent errorrate . the reality is it was.0063 percent . less than one in 15,000. so the president accepted that. he said okay, fine but what about the others again this gets back to the point that there were so many ofthese allegations that when you gave him a very direct answer on one of them , he wouldn't fight us on it but he would move to another allegation. so then i talk about a little bit about the pennsylvania truck driver. this is another allegation that had, and this claim was flat for driver who believes perhaps honestly that he had transported an entire tractor-trailer truck full of ballots from new york to pennsylvania. and this was again out there in the public and discuss and i essentially said look, we looked at that allegation.
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we look at both ends, the people who loaded the truck and unloaded the truck . and that that allegation was not supported the evidence. again, he said okay. then he said no i didn't mention that one. what about the others ? and i said okay, well with regard to georgia we interview the witnesses. there is no suitcase. the president kept getting fixated on this suitcase that had fraudulentballots and the suitcase was rolled out from under the table . i said no sir, thereis no suitcase . >> ...
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to rack up votes presumably for vice president biden. i told him the video did not support that. then he went off on -- the top of the next page he said that people are voting. indians are getting paid to vote and people in native american reservations. he said there's lots of fraud going on here. much of the information he's getting is false and/or just not supported by the evidence. we look at the allegations but they don't pan out. >> mr. barr and his advisers were not the only ones who determined that the president allegations regarding dominion voting machines were false. so mr. chairman, i asked nevins consent to include in the record of this hearing reports issued by the department of homeland securities cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency, otherwise known as cisa, that
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addressed and rejected the claims of manipulation of voting machines in the 2020s election. >> without objection, so ordered. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i also ask anonymous consent to include in the record a report prepared by the michigan senate oversight committee that disproved claims of election fraud in michigan as well as a statement by 59 of the country's leading election security scientists noting the absence of any credible evidence that the 2020 the 2020 election had been altered through technical compromise, and five of the report whose organizations and individuals confirming there was no widespread fraud in the 2020s election or describing the spread of the former presidents lies. >> without objection, so ordered. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i yield back. >> pursuant to the order of the
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committee for today, the chair declares the committee in recess for a period of approximately ten minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> and the january 6th select committee taking a short break.
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committee members zoe lofgren taking the lead did as a look at the election fraud claims. today is the first of three hearings this week with others scheduled wednesday and thursday. we will also be showing the hearings in their entirety each night on the c-span networks. and if you have to be away from your tv during our live coverage you can follow all of today's hearing with our free video app, c-span now. it's available to download whatever you get your apps. a reminder, the january 6th committee hearings and all c-span programming is brought to you as a public service by these television companies, including sparklight, wow and verizon wireless. [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the second panel coming together as the january 6th committee hearings continue. we will also show you the hearings in their entirety tonight at 9 p.m. eastern on c-span.
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[inaudible conversations] >> the committee will be in order. i now welcome our second panel of witnesses. we are joined today by dj back, al schmidt, and vince ginsburg.
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mr. pak is a former united states attorney for the northern district of georgia. mr. smith is a former city commissioner for the city of philadelphia where he served for more than ten years. mr. ginsburg is one of the leading election law attorneys in the country and has represented republican presidential candidates in election litigation dating back to 2000, where he represented george w. bush in the bush v. gore litigation. i one elsewhere in our witnesses. -- i i will now swear in our witnesses. [witnesses were sworn in] >> thank you. please be seated. let the record reflect the
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witnesses answered in the affirmative. pursuant to section 5c8 of house resolution 503 503 i now ree the gentlewoman from california ms. lofgren. >> thank you, mr. chairman. before the break i think you all heard mr. barr and mr. donahoe talk about the false claims that mr. trump and his supporters made about suitcases of take ballots in georgia get where the witness are today who thoroughly investigated that issue. this trip back, i want to thank you for appearing before us today. you were appointed by president trump to serve as use attorney for the northern district of georgia and you served for 2017 into january of 2021. you were the lead federal prosecutor there and work for the department of justice under the attorney general bill barr.
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were you ever asked by attorney general barr to investigate claims of voter fraud and the 2020s election? and if so, what were those claims? >> thank you, congressman lofgren. thank you for the question. approximately december 4th i believe of 2020, attorney general barr and i had a conversation about an unrelated case at issue. at the end of the conversation mr. barr had asked me if i'd seen a certain videotape that was being reported in the news where mr. giuliani, in a subcommittee hearing that was held the day before, , may 3, showed a videotape of a purportedly security tape at fulton county and the city of atlanta. i'm sorry, city of, yes. at the time mr. barr asked me
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that he had made a public statement that he had not seen any widespread election fraud that would question the outcome of the election. and because of the videotape and a serious allegation that mr. giuliani was making with respect to this suitcase full of ballots reported in the video, he asked me to find out what it could about it because he had envisioned that some days after he was going to go to the white house for meeting and that issue might come up. he asked me to make it a priority to get to the bottom of, to try to substantiate the allegation made by mr. giuliani. >> thank you. i understand that georgia secretary of state's office investigated those allegations and didn't find any evidence of fraud. what did you find when your
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office conducted its own investigation? >> we found that this suitcase full of olives, the alleged black suitcase that was being seen pulled from under the table was actually an official lockbox where ballots were kept safe. we found out that there was a mistake in terms of misunderstanding that there were done counting ballots for the night. and the partisan watchers that was signed by each of the respective party were announced at to send hope it went to realize someone from the secretary of state office had indicated no, no, no, , we're nt done for the night you need to go heading continue counting, so once they packed up the lockbox full of ballots they brought back the official ballot box again and continued to tally the ballots from that, from the lockbox. unfortunately during the senate hearing mr. giuliani only played
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a clip the show them pulling out the official ballot box from under the table, and referring to that as smoking gun of fraud in fulton county went and actually in review of the entire video, it showed that was actually an official ballot box that was kept underneath the table, and then we saw them pac up because of the announcement that they were done for the night, and then once the nasa was made and you could continue counting that brought the ballot box back out and they continued to count. we interviewed fbi interviewed the individuals that are depicted in the videos, the purportedly double, , triple cunning of the ballot and determined that nothing irregular happened in the counting and the allegations made by mr. giuliani were false. >> thank you very much. i would like to play again a testimony from mr. donahoe who appear before the committee
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before today. >> mr. donahoe, we talked at some length about whether or not the white house, the present was informed about the report. on the result of the investigation the interviews that are going on on fulton county, how would those results have been communicated to the white house, to the president? >> i don't know how to initially communicated. do know that they came up in subsequent conversations with the president, and we essentially told him we look into that and it's just not true. >> okay. so he was informed? >> i told the president myself that several times in several conversations that these allegations about ballots being smuggled in in the suitcase and run to the machine several times, it was not true, that would look at a conflict of the video, interviewed witnesses and it was not true.
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>> mr. pak after you left the u.s. attorney's office on january 4, 2021, the next u.s. attorney there, mr. trump's personal pick, bobby christine come to investigate any remaining claims of fraud? and if so, did he find any evidence that supported the president claims of voter fraud? >> it is my understanding that mr. christine continued in investigations that were pending at the time of my departure what he was unable to find any evidence of fraud that affected the outcome of the election. >> so after investigating the president's and mr. giuliani's claims about voter fraud in georgia, is it your view today that there was no evidence of widespread fraud sufficient to undermine confidence in the outcome of the election in georgia? >> that is correct. >> thank you, mr. pak, and i want to thank you also for the service that you have given to our country. we appreciate that.
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>> next, i would like to turn to president trump's false allegations about election integrity in philadelphia. the attorney general discussed these allegations at some length. >> you know, the idea the president has repeatedly suggested that there was some kind of outpouring of unexpected votes in inner-city areas like philadelphia as recently as january 13 when he walked off the npr set, he was asked by the interviewer what's your evidence of fraud? and he said more people voted in philadelphia and there were voters. that was absolutely rubbish. in the turnout in philadelphia was in line with the states turnout and, in fact, it was not as impressive as many suburban counties, and there was nothing strange about the philadelphia turnout. it was like that was all these
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unexpected votes that came out in philadelphia. so you you know i think oncu actually look at the votes, there's an obvious explanation. for example, in pennsylvania trump ran weaker than the republican ticket generally. he ran weaker than two of the state candidates. he ran weaker than the congressional delegation, running for federal congress, and he ran weaker than the republican, i think i haven't looked at this recently but he generally was a weak element on the republican ticket. so that does not suggest that the election was stolen by fraud. >> how about pennsylvania and philadelphia about alleged discrepancy between number of absentee ballots issued in the number of ballots -- >> right. that was one of the big ones for a period of time. i think that was raised in gettysburg by giuliani or something like that but he kept
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on being repeated. i found it annoying because i didn't see that it was right so i called nick swain and he got back to me and said no, the problem is that giuliani threw out, throughout this time and what he did was he mixed apples and oranges and took the number of applications for the republican primary and he compared it to the number of absentee votes cast in the general election. but once you actually go and look and compare apples to apples there's no discrepancy at all. and that's one of, i think at some point i covered that with the president. >> we had another witness here today who has detailed knowledge about the election process in philadelphia. mr. schmidt, at the time of the 2020 presidential election you were serving as the only
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republican member of philadelphia's three-member city commission which is responsible for overseeing elections throughout the city. is that correct? >> that's correct, congressperson. >> so president trump made numerous claims regarding fraudulent voting practices in philadelphia, including the claim that dead people were voting. in fact, mr. giuliani told pennsylvania state legislators that 8000 dead people voted in pennsylvania. you investigated those claims of voter fraud. can you tell us what you found? >> not only was it not evidence of 8000 dead voters voting in pennsylvania, there wasn't evidence of eight. we took seriously every case that was referred to us, no matter how fantastical, the matter how absurd and took everyone every one of those seriously including these. >> as it turns out even mr. trump's campaign lawyers knew that the dead voter claims were
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not valid. >> i guess the crooks in philadelphia are disappointed in this the only submitted 8021 ballots from dead people, mail-in ballots for dead people. it would be easier for dead people to smith mail-in ballots than it is to vote in person. >> roti was at this stage of his life the same ability to manage things at this level or not. and obviously they never proved the allegations that they were making and they were trying to develop. >> mr. schmidt, on november 11, 2020, president trump tweeted about you saying, and here's a quote, a guy named al schmidt, a philadelphia commissioner and so-called republican, or rhino, is being used big-time by the fake news media to explain how
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honest things were with respect to the election in philadelphia. he refuses to look at a mountain of corruption dishonesty. we win. as a result of that tweet and the cnn interview and you gave where you stated a dead voter claims in pennsylvania were false, you and your staff were subjected to disturbing threats. can you tell us about that? >> the threats prior to that tweet and on some level it feels almost silly to talk about tweet but we can really see the impact they have because prior to that the threats were pretty general in nature, corrupt election officials in philadelphia are going to get what's coming to them. you'll i what the second amendment is for. you are walking into the lions den, all sorts of things like that. after the president tweeted at me by name, calling out in the way that he did, the threats became much more specific, much more graphic. and included not just me by
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name, but included members of my family by name, their ages, our address, pictures of our home. just every bit of detail that you could imagine. that is what what changed with that tweet. >> hang me are redacted threats that you received that you provided to the committee -- behind me -- we redacted portions of the text to protect your family. mr. schmidt, i think i speak for all of my colleagues when i iy we are deeply sorry for what you and your loved ones have been through. and i also want to thank you for your service, to your country and for standing up for the rule of law. i want to thank both mr. pak and mr. schmidt for their service for the testimony and for standing up for the rule of law. now, i would like to turn to another subject.
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the courts in our country provide a legitimate venue for campaigns to challenge what they view as irregular election practice. courts have the final say in how the law applies to those challenges. we have a renowned legal expert here to address the trump campaign activities in court. mr. ginsburg, you spent your entire career representing republicans in election related litigation. you serve as a national council on republican presidential campaigns in 2000, in 2004, and in 2012. you played a key role in the 2000 florida recount the lead to the supreme court's decision in bush v. gore. you serve as the cochair of the presidential commission on election administration. i think it's fair to say you are the most prominent republican
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lawyer who has litigated in the election field. now you analyzed the trump campaign litigation pretty carefully. what's the like normal process for postelection litigation? how was the trump campaign is different from the height of postelection litigation you have been involved in and know about? >> in the normal course of things in the campaign on the night of the election and the days after we will do a couple of different things. one, is they will analyze recent results to look for abnormalities in the results and they will send people to those precincts to ask more questions. secondly, all campaigns will have paul watchers and poll workers and observers in the polling place. so campaigns will talk to those people if they saw any irregularities that could cause problems in the election. now the trump campaign talked
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pre-election about having 50,000 poll workers so presumably a did have eyes on the ground in all these places. so when the normal course of things i campaign will analyze the reports that come in. trump campaign had a couple of basic problems, however. number one, the 2020 election was not close. in 2000 that was 537 close. in this election the most narrow margin was 10,000 and something in arizona, and you just don't make up those sorts of numbers in recount. and when the claims of fraud and irregularities were made, you have heard very compelling testimony from mr. stepien, from matt morgan, from alex cannon, about those claims and how they didn't believe them. so that put the trump campaign
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on sort of a process of bringing cases without the actual evidence which you have to have in which the process is designed to bring out. >> so are you aware of any instance in which a court found the trump campaign fraud claims to be credible? >> no. there was never that instance. and all the cases that were brought, and i've looked at the more than 60 that include more than 180 counts, and, and no, the simple fact is that the trump campaign did not make its case. >> the select committee has identified 62 postelection lawsuits filed by the trump campaign and his allies between november 4, 2020, and and january 6th, 2021. those cases resulted in 61 losses and only a single victory which actually didn't affect the outcome for either candidate. despite of those 61 losses,
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president trump and his allies claimed that the courts refused to hear them out, and as a result they never had their day in court. mr. ginsburg, what you say about the claims that mr. trump wasn't given an opportunity to provide the evidence they had a voter fraud? did they, in fact, did they have their day in court? >> they did have their day in court. about half of those cases that you mentioned were dismissed at the procedural stage for a lack of standing, the proper people didn't bring the case, or the wasn't sufficient evidence and it got dismissed on a motion to dismiss. but in the other two were discussion of the merits that were contained in the complaints, and in no instance did a court fine at the charges of fraud were real. and it's also worth noting that even if the trump campaign complained that it did not have its day in court, there had been
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postelection reviews in each of the six battleground states that could've made a difference. and those range from the somewhat farcical cyborg ninja cases in arizona to the michigan senate report that was mentioned earlier, the hand recount in georgia that mr. pak addressed, and in each one of those instances there was no credible evidence of fraud produced by the trump campaign or his supporters. >> thank you. as mr. ginsburg has explained, there are no cases where the trump campaign was able to convince a court that there was widespread fraud or irregularities in in the 2020 election. over and over judges voted by democrats and republicans alike directly refuted this false narrative. they called out the tramp campaign like of evidence for its claims and the judges did that even in cases where the could've simply thrown out the
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lawsuit without writing a word. >> you can see behind me a few excerpts from the decisions in these 62 cases. the trump campaign said lack of evidence was criticized by judges across the political spectrum. in pennsylvania a trump appointed judge concluded, quote, charges requires specific allegations and proofs if we have neither here. another trump appointed judge warned that if cases like these succeeded, quote, any disappointed loser in a presidential election able to hire a team of clever lawyers could flag claim deviation from election results and cast doubt on election results. the list goes on and on. allegations are called quote, an amalgamation with theories, conjecture and speculation. and another, legal arguments without merit.
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unsupported by evidence, derived from wholly unreliable sources, a fundamental and obvious misreading of the constitution. the rejection of president trump's litigation efforts was overwhelming. 22 federal judges appointed by republican presidents, including ten appointed by president trump himself, and at least 24 elected or appointed republican state judges dismissed the president's claims. at least 11 lawyers have been referred or disciplinary proceedings due to bad faith and baseless efforts to undermine the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. rudy giuliani had his license to practice law suspended in new york, and just this week i newly filed complaint will potentially make his suspension from practicing law in d.c. permanent.
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and as we have just heard from perhaps the most preeminent republican election lawyer in recent history, the trump campaign unprecedented effort to overturn its election loss in court with deeply damaging abuse of it process as stated by u.s. district court judge david carter. this was, quote, a coup in search of a legal theory. thank you, mr. chairman, and i yield back. >> i want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. the members of the select committee may have additional questions for today's witnesses, and we ask that you respond expeditiously in writing to those questions. without objection, members will be permitted ten business days to submit statements for the record, including opening remarks and additional questions
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for the witnesses. the second panel of witnesses is now dismissed. [inaudible conversations] >> without objection the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from california, ms. lofgren, for a closing statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman. now that we understand the litigation efforts by president trump and his allies i would like to present additional actions taken by the trump campaign during this time. president trump continued to push the stolen election narrative, even though he and his allies knew that their litigation efforts, making the
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same claim, had failed. it's worth pointing out that litigation generally does not continue past the safe harbor date of december 14. but the fact that this litigation went on, well, that decision makes more sense when you consider the trump campaign fund-raising tactics. because if the litigation had stopped on december 14 14th , there would've been no fight to defend the election and no clear path to continue to raise millions of dollars. mr. chairman, at this time i would ask unanimous consent to include in the record a video presentation describing how president trump used the lies he told to raise millions of dollars from the american people. these fund-raising schemes were also part of the effort to disseminate the false claims of election fraud. >> without objection, so ordere ordered. >> i am senior investigator counsel of the house select
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committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the united states capital. between election day and january 6th a trump campaign sent millions of fund-raising emails to trump supporters. sometimes as many as 25 25(a) day. the e-mails claimed book, , left wing mob was undermining to the election. step up to protect the integrity of the election and encourage them to quote fight back. but as so selectively has demonstrated the trump campaign nude these claims and voter fraud were false, yet they continue to barrage small dollar donors and e-mails, encouraging to donate to something called the official election defense fund. the select committee discovered no such fund existed. i don't think there's actually a fund called the election defense fund. >> it was another i think we called it a marketing tactic, and tells about these marketing tactics. >> just topic matter where money
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could potentially go, how many could potentially be used. >> the claims of this election was stolen were so successful come president trump and its allies raise $250 million, nearly $100 million in the first week after the election. on november 9, 2020, president trump created a separate entity called the save america back. most of the money raised went to the newly created pac, not to election related litigation. the select committee discovered that the save america pac made millions of contributions to protest organizations including $1 million to trump chief of staff mark meadows checkable foundation. $1 million to the america first policy institute, a conservative organization which employs several former top administration officials, $204,857 to the trump hotel collection, and over $5 million to event strategies, the company $5 million to event strategies, the company the rent president trump's january 6th rally. >> all of us here today do not
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want to see our election victory stolen by a bold and radical left the democrats which is what they're doing. >> the evidence developed by the select committee highlights how the trump campaign aggressively pushed false election claims to fund raise. telling supporters it would be used to fight voter fraud that did not exist. the emails continued through january 6th even as president trump spoke on that day. 30 minutes after the last fund-raising e-mail was sent the capitol was breached. [shouting] >> every american is entitled and encouraged to participate in our election process. political fund-raising as part of that. small dollar donors use scarce disposable income to support candidates and causes of their
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choosing to make their voices heard, and those donors deserve the truth about what those funds will be used for. throughout the committee's investigation we found evidence that the trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for pixel not only was there the big lie, there was the big ripoff. donors deserve to know where their funds are really going. they deserve better than what president trump and his team did. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> without objection the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from wyoming, ms. cheney, for a closing statement. >> thank you very much, mr. cha. mr. chairman, i would like to thank all of our witnesses today, and i would also like to in particular wish mr. stepien and his family all the best on the arrival of a new baby.
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today's hearing, mr. chairman, was very narrowly focused, and in the coming days use the committee move on to president trump's broader planning for january 6th, colluding his plan to cut the department of justice and is detailed planning with lawyer john eastman to pressure the vice president, state legislatures, state officials, and others to overturn the election. let me leave you today with one click, to preview what you will see in one of our hearings to come. this is the testimony of white house lawyer eric herschmann. john eastman called mr. herschmann the day after january 6th, and here's how that conversation went. >> i said to him are you out of your acting mind? i only want to hear two words come out of your mouth for now, orderly transition.
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>> thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> at the conclusion of last week's hearing, we showed you a video explaining why that come to washington on january 6th. it was because donald trump told them to be here. today we heard about some of the lies donald trump embraced and amplified when it became clear he didn't have the numbers of votes to win the election. we heard about health officials in different levels of government explored claims of fraud, and found no evidence. yet, the former president continue to repeat those false claims over and over again. today will end things where we did on thursday, back on january
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6th, hearing words of individuals who wanted to stop the transfer of power. we know they were there because of donald trump. now we hear some of the things they believed. without objection i enter into the record a video presentation. >> i know exactly what's going on right now. fake election. they put biden in office. it ain't happening today. >> have you voted? >> yes, sir. voted early, went well except, can't really trust the software. dominion software all over. >> we voted and right at the top right-hand corner of the dominion voting machine that we used there was a wi-fi symbol with five bars. so that most deadly is connected to the internet without a doubt. so they stole that from us
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twice. twice. we are not doing it anymore. we are not taking it anymore, so we're standing up, we are here and whatever happens we are not laying down again. [shouting] >> 200,000 people that were not register voted. 437,000 votes -- and you can stand there and tell me that it works. >> i don't want to say that what we're doing is right, but if the election is being stolen, what is it going to say? >> the chair request those in the hearing room remain seated until the capitol police have escorted members from the room. without objection, the committee stands adjourned.
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> that wraps up the secretary of the genuine six committee. this is the first of three hearings this week. the next one wednesday at 10 a.m. easter with another thursday. if you missed any of today's hearing we will we ehret tonight 9 p.m. eastern on c-span. you can also follow these hearings online at or on the go with the c-span now free video rep. hearings, house and senate session, campaign events and more on c-span now.
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1:30 p.m. eastern time on c-span2. and later the senate gavels into session with work expected to continue on legislation to expand access to be a healthcare and disability benefits for veterans exposed to toxic substances. mainly from military burn pits during their service. also expected, speeches on the current issue. we will have the senate live at 3:00 eastern. >> our focus now on the help of social security and medicare and to do that and a guest for the next 45 minutes we have -- the american enterprise institute, max richman president and ceo of the national committee to preserve social security and medicare. good morning to you both. >> goodd morning. >> first on the latest projections on how long these programs are going to be around, we foundun out some new numbers just a couple of weeks ago. what did we find out? >> that's really the wrong