on the capitol. go to c-span.org/january 6, web resource page to watch the latest of the hearing, briefings and covered on the attack and subsequent investigations since january 62021 reaction from members of congress and the white house as well as journalists and authors talking about the investigation. c-span.org/january 6 for a fast easy way to watch when you can't see it live. ♪♪ weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual piece. every saturday american history tv documents american stories and sunday's book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more including comcast. >> you think it's just a community center? it's way more than that.

comcast partners with 1000 community centers to create wi-fi enabled the students from low income families can get the tools they need to be ready for everything. comcast along with these television companies support c-span2 as ao public service. >> tonight, i am thrilled to welcome dave, author of the new book the kaepernick affect my conversation. at essence where the have social media followers. we sold much to share elevator dusen. for some it's a word about the book. so many of us remember the quite in the same time it's action called -- colin kaepernick took five is go. we witness the mass masterl movement that is taken shape since then and we saw about the courage to stand up as an

athlete takes and the stakes at play. this this book reflects on the and the policies and impact of sports on politics. it's about e players, cross generations and level inspired by using the platform of the field or court to fight police brutality, injustice and racism. the program tonight as part of a series of discussions connected to the center for history -- [inaudible] which dives dies deeply ie history of black led protests. all of its many facets by going to the link in the chat. i suspect that this will prompt many of you to want to explore this book further. we will also include in the chat to the website of the local brooklyn bookstore, the community bookstore, so you can

click and learn more about "the kaepernick effect." a few final notes in that i will happily handed off. you have the option to engage closed captioning, you can simply click that at the bottom of your screen, and finally we would like to share your questions. type it into the q&a box also at the bottom of your screen. all right. now, let me briefly introduce date and khalil and invite them when they ducked out young that digital curtain and handed off to them. briefly because i could go on but i'm not, dave zirin is the sports editor of the nation, a columnist for the progress and the host of the podcast. his books include a people's history of sports in the unitedd states, game over, that sports

and connect. davis been a regular guest on msnbc, cnn and espn, also named one of the most -- [inaudible] -- elected the first black student body president in jails 318 year history. he's currently in a special moment of history. has approximate happening followers across his tiktok instagram platforms where he, it's about history and our society. he has worked in sports and pop-culture website and authored about racial equity in the times, the "washington post" among others. thank you both so much for being

here and i'm going handed over to you. >> thank you so much for the introduction. dave, how are you? >> i'm greatly. great. i'm so happy to be here. i such warm feelings for brooklyn, for the society, so this is just everything for me. >> i'm so grateful for you to make the time to visit. >> same. i'm for a burr my mom is from bed sty, born and enrages sa great sort of return to where she's from but i think if you want to get started we could jump right into the questions if that sounds good to you. >> it does except i live in maryland now. where did you grow up? >> really? i'm in montgomery county. >> after i am right now. >> i was born and raised in germantown, maryland,. >> i'm sitting here in tacoma park maryland. >> wow, wow. there you go. that's amazing. >> shout out to maryland. >> how about we jump into it? i think the first question on

the audiences mind and a guest mind before to read the book, i'd love to hear in your own words what is the kaepernick affect? >> the kaepernick the fact is the chain reaction that took place after colin kaepernick first set during the anthem and then took a need in august and september of 2016. but i think the best way to describe the effect is just something about how he came up with this idea that want to spend a big chunk of my life working on this book and talking to people and in of income and whatnot. like it started when i was talking in 1968 olympian john carlos is a famously raised his fist on the stand in mexico city, and john a couple years ago looked at me and he just said, you know, they come after raise my fist in mexico city a tongue of young people starting a track meet around the country country and i was like, what? like i always considered myself a bit of an amateur historian so i was like where are these people?

who are they? how did it affect allies? how did it affect the coaches? i was curious to know the effect of his fist and i realized that is going to be an impossible task. so i started to think about all of the one-off stories that i'd read and some of which i've written about young people who took the knee after colin kaepernick. some of the a one-off story about young one woman was kicked off the team for taking a knee. one young man who was disciplined by his coach, a team in detroit that it garbage thrown at them, like the stories that i'd written or i'd read i started think you know what, this is significant. i write about the intersection of sports and politics and of hundreds if not thousands of young athletes in this country took a knee after colin kaepernick we need to tell that story. so start the process of at the start of the pandemic of calling a lot of folks who were roughly around your age and this is one of the pluses of being at the

start of the pandemic is sometimes it's tough to get folks on the phone and actually have a conversation with them. they want to text, snapchat. people still snapchat? i don't know but okay, but so because of the pandemic people were at home. they were a little bit bored and their happy to talk to me. i started having these long conversations with young people who had taken a in the learnig about how it affected their lives, and that's where my head was. i'm going to say this history from being forgotten but in the summer 2020 happens, the police murder of george floyd to get the largest protest in history of the united states in the summer of 2020. i went back and i called the dozens of people i'd interviewed up to that point and it was amazing to me that all of them were either in the streets were organizing people to get in the streets, and that really made me realize that while many roads may have led us to the sum of

2020, one of them runs straight for the athletic fields of the united states and that story is worth telling. >> that's so powerful. in the book you definitely get a sense of that because it really is a collection of stories. stories of the impact that colin kaepernick had on these individuals but also the impact of it on the own communities with various come all sorts of reactions i think you see throughout the book. one question i have to kind of follow up from that is, in the book it's pretty much separated into three main parts looking at high school protest, college protests and professional protests that followed colin kaepernick and am wondering why did you choose to segment it in that regard generational as opposed to maybe like the south or add reactions in good reactions? woes that thought process like? >> that's a great question and it was like a lot of thought went into okay how am i going to organize all of these stories that in getting a sort of a

catchall. once word got up is doing this book people start reaching out to me saying my cousin took a knee. can you talk to them? there was all of this swirling around like how should a properly organize this. one of the things a sorry on my first thought was a guy can what you said like should i do this by region? should i go blue state red state? should i go world urban? i realize so many of the stories transcended that, or you could say maybe transcend isn't even the right word but the connective tissue between the story to me was so strong that it belied whether you in a red state or a blue state or anything like that and, frankly, some of those differentiations, our mainstream media nonsense because of a notice each of these red state blue state can be very diverse. after george floyd was murdered there were protests in all 50 states in the united states similarly like some of the reactions in nice cities have thought of as liberal and whatnot like seattle could be

more vicious towards people taking an even say someone e doing it in a rural community in georgia, like it depended on so many factors in terms of the backlash against people had received. i went high school college and pro because i really started thinking that are very distinct and specific challenges that a high school student with face, a college athlete scholarship would face, and then a professional athlete, like three different very distinct realms. in high school we all know what it is, we all remember what it's like. you're making yourself heard. there's a lot of courage because along with it. no one with favorite exceptions necessary want to stand out in high school or stand against the grain. i wanted to honor the specific courage for people who have been born after 9/11 and it really known nothing in this country other than a permanent kind of state of war and, of course, the pandemic, environmental

catastrophe. i have a 17-year-old daughter, so people people up and race under this tree specific set of circumstances i wanted to honor that. at the collegiate level you're dealing with scholarships, dealing with a coach who could cut off the team, scholarships a lot of schools are only renewed on an annual basis. a lot of pressure can be applied to your financial aid, to all sorts of factors relative to play sports. i had to honor that kind of a specific set of challenges. then at the professional level, we're talking paychecks. we're talking collusion against you if you dare speak out. another very specific set of challenges, the kind of challenges that really hit colin kaepernick right in the face after he took a knee. i wanted to be specifically honor and extrapolate off those very, very different set of generational circumstances. >> yeah, and that makes a lot of sense and even as i'm reading the book you see other ways of

categorizing and thinking about separating the things that you weave throughout the high school, college and pro categorization really well. one of his other categorization steny at me as a writ was the fact that not everyone who protested was playing the same sport, right? like colin kaepernick is a football player and a lot of the examples like light of the bad our football players that look to him as inspiration especially other lacked males. as you go through the book you see black women in college, ivy leagues were cheerleaders also taking a stance that colin kaepernick did people doing different forms of resistance, so whether it is a knee or sitting down putting the fist up. i'm curious like the sport and the general aspect, like what are some of the trends you saw depended on whether or not someone was a football player or a cheerleader, one of the questions will get to later like

wnba? >> wow, and another great question. this is, and folk should know that i don't know what these questions are so i'm just responding off the top of the dome. there's some very, very serious set of inquiries here so let me try to take that on in terms of the different sports and whatnot. i'm using the word on her a lot partly because i so much respect for the people that are interviewed and if you like a sense of real connection with them at this point. after having called them, we called them during the protest of 2020 come just there's a set of really just like a tightness there, that has enriched my life tremendously. it's maybe former optimistic that it was when i started this book honestly about the future just talking to these folks. one of the things i wanted to do was honor the breadth of the experience that existed because i made a book just about football players. that would be an effective historical lie because i be safe here's the effect that involves

men, involves young men and involves football. it's not just a football story. it spread to so many different sports. i had to make a point to honor the confirmation of women. because women so often get, particularly black woman, get written out of the history books. this is a case for like with the black lives matter movement in many cases black women are the backbone of this struggle pushing it forward. we could talk about the whole wnba proceeding colin kaepernick taking a knee just to give another layer to the role that women have played in this struggle. one of the things i i found th to get your question is, i found that are stereotypes aren't very helpful is what i found. like people might think well, i bet he high school women's subtlety would be more supportive than a man's football team, or something like that because it would be more of a culture of community in women's sports than men's sports.

i found doing this book that when were talking about racial inequity and police violence, people do want to hear that, the secretive knives come out. if people don't want to hear what you have to say in this country, , the response can be very brutal. one of the common threads in the book is really this specter of violence as a response to what is a nonviolent act of civil disobedience, and to me that's a stunning window into this country, even larger. like it doesn't matter if you are a softball player in one part of the country or a youth football player in oman texas. it's like if you are -- beaumont, texas. if you're challenging the status quo, challenging the way white supremacy works in this country, and people are not going to just agree to disagree, or people are not going to say you are making good point committee i should at least listen to you and your you out. in some cases people do say that and there are stories of people

who are actually changed through these protests. but in other cases the response is not only do i not want to hear what you have to say but i'm going to respond violently to that. i feel like what all these young athletes went through from 2016-2020 was kind of like the canary in the coal mine, you know, the warning of everything you're seeing right now with regards to so-called critical race theory and the idea of teaching about structural racism in schools. we got such a sneak preview around these kneeling protests about how certain segment of this population will respond if you dare raise up these flags against structural racism. >> yeah and i think it reminds me of, well, i'm a student as you know, a history major specifically studied the history of social change and social movements. one of the most basic stories are the most i guess profound and well-known stories of

nonviolent protest come from the civil rights era and mlk and a lot of what you find is they use nonviolence knowing specifically that it would cause of violent reaction from the white southerners or whatever audience was a and that violent attack on nonviolent people would be a spectacle enough to get other people outside of the community on their side. in a lot of ways it's almost like making yourself a martyr in a small way in a lot of cases in the own temerity to make a larger statement about the fact like all i'm doing is kneeling or raising a fast and it's causing this reaction. so what else can you look at? as you say over time, like we find nonviolent protest can turn into other forms of protest the special at something like george floyd were a lot of communities that was the straw that broke the camel's back. like you say the canary song, just the warnings after so many

years, like if it still doesn't work you see what we have like what we had last summer with the racial justice uprising riots which i think it's a very interesting sort of dynamic, a cycle of nonviolent to like increasing frustration in communities of color against what's happening. i'm curious from -- >> before you ask the question let me just say, you said some stuff i would love to respond to, you made some amazing points. i get three bullet points in my brain based on what you said. the first is i i just came bak from minneapolis today, and you go to george floyd square, and one of the murals that is there is a huge mural of colin kaepernick taking an knee, and it's chilling and very moving because implicit in presenting that over where george floyd's body lay is this idea okay, we

tried expressing this in the most peaceful possible terms, that there's a problem with police violence in this country and racism, and that was ignored, or ever responded to with hostility and violence. you have to listen to people when they're stepping forward with their concerns in a society, or you're going to reap the whirlwind at some point. the silver right, you mention the civil rights movement. two quick things about that quick parallels to this kaepernick movement we seen of the past five years. the first is anybody who is watched eyes on the prize knows the part of all the civil rights activist who speak about the fact that emmett till, the lynching of emmett till in mississippi was something that changed their lives and it was like like a scar they just could not be erased, and it informed that they need to be part of the struggle going forward no matter what i found in talking with a lot of these young people that

trayvon martin was really the emmett till of this generation, and that was removing and surprising to me that every single person i spoke to practically said, they said the name trayvon more than they said the name colin kaepernick. they're speaking about what informed the protest and maybe think about the fact that like trayvon martin, he was killed in 2012. that's nine years ago. if you're 20 that means you it happen when you are 11. you were 11 you are old enough to get what's happening but also young enough to ask the question why does the world have to be this way? that really i think stuck with people in a big way. the other civil rights movement parallel that comes to mind is when you think of something like the montgomery bus boycott, this isn't an issue about respect and about jim crow on the bus lines. -- this is. that's what people are fighting event. the powers that be in montgomery not to making the powers that be throughout the jim crow south

sought as a much bigger threat, like if there talk about bus lines today who knows what they'll be talking about tomorrow. this is like pulling the string on a sweater that similar to colin kaepernick and all these young people who took a knee like yes, they were doing it for racial equity. yes, they were doing get against police violence what of the reasons why the reaction was so incredibly vicious in some cases was because implicit in taking that knee is a statement, especially during the anthem that there's a gap between what this country says it represents and then the lived experiences of the many people in this country, and that is a very intense challenge to put towards power in the united states. >> that really resonates with me. i think i was in eighth grade. i'm not sure how old i was in terms of the number when the trayvon martin case was publicized and came to light. even before that i actually had heard of emmett till.

i remember hearing this for my parents at some point, and i think that was in the '50s and my grandmother was in the '40s. i think she is older than emmett till so i i always had that ie back of my mind, like modern-day lynchings, right? they are similar in kind, different and like the realities i guess but seeing a lot of those things are replicated today is very jarring. white after trayvon martin i with you like it was successions of killings like over the years. there was tamir rice soon after that and then mike brown and freddie gray. i was in baltimore and 2015. that was in maryland, a lot more protests around that and then sandra bland and philando castile anthologies, all at lot of cases just happened short time span anything it was so frustrating and really heartbreaking. there was a poll that i saw

right behind the pandemic, so was number one before the pandemic but like the cause that shapes our generation was a black lives matter movement. whether it was positive or negative reaction the thing that shaped things the most, like interesting and can increase to see but also and made a lot of sense especially seeing the impact back and they come probably one of the largest thing sews on people's minds was a domestic issue in 60. >> definitely. i'm really appreciative of you mentioning those cases and the way they shake people. social media is very much a part of this story because when people, especially in summer 2016, when alton sterling, terrence crutcher, philando castile all killed and the videos going viral and people seeing them and then the response by so many people in power and in politics are saying well, the problem is social

media. it's like no, the problem is police violence. like people saying colin kaepernick a a polarizing and taking any is polarizing. i'm just come my head is, no, what's polarizing is police violence, which polarizing is racism. that's what's polarizing. we need to talk about polarization. you have to keep in mind if you drill into the pulse about people taking any, particularly colin kaepernick ssa much that america is polarized. it's white america that polarized because black and brown folks probably support the right to protest during the anthem, particularly around issues of racial inequity. broadly supported it is among particularly like white families and sometimes a people to disagree like some say yes, this is appropriate, to do something and others were absolutely repulsed at the thought of anybody protesting either at a a sporting event or during the anthem but that's the power of

taking that need doping it is so ubiquitous. khalil, if you and i took a knee like at the maryland state fair or if we took a knee at the ravens game, or if we took any of the super bowl during the anthem. everybody would immediately know why we are taking that need that's the power of it is that people see it in the know your issue a direct challenge the status quo. that's really one of the things that drove the people who did want to see off the deep end. >> yeah, and to mention taking any unlike everyone would understand anything especially after last year you saw a lot of like symbolic gestures, in my opinion, everyone has their own, but like the senate democrats taking a knee or very recently some ceo, cap member who, but it took in the like in support of black lives matter something to happen. i think what was happening at

the border with the haitian migrants or just taking a knee is like a racial justice protest. i'm curious to hear your thoughts about like how is the taking of the knee been diluted over time and what ways have that symbolism been beneficial but also using a a negative ps i think it was a part of the book where you highlight or maybe was in the forward, highlight like out taking any is also the stance the killed george floyd and lot of taking a knee is the stance that killed george floyd in a lot of ways but what is the different meaning of symbolism however many years after colin kaepernick did it? >> first, the power, i saw that protests i went through out the summer, it didn't take an american study degree from columbia for people to realize this is like a tale of two knees, calling caper next need, nonviolent expression of the desire for social change and d derek chauvin's knee on the neck

of george floyd. these two knees about where we are as a country and what we view as acceptable or not. people, the murder of george floyd, they have colin kaepernick for taking the knee and it's a fun house mirror of rowdy so there is this reality this hundred in terms of what we see as accessible as part of human life into something wen need to drill down on and discuss. another thing that so important is this idea of appropriationnd watering it down. as the future of this country. there's a knock much malcolm x stand, i'm going to sound oldt but when public enemy and chuck said 1989, most of my heroes don't appear on those stampedps and that was 1989, a true

statementut. our icons of radicalism anddi icons of people fighting for direct change, they get appropriated because they can't be destroyed or forgotten. like you can't make this country forget about malcolm x or make young people forget about that history. ... l it back to people as consumable come something to sell. anything to make it safe, anything to extract its political k-9s so you don't bite at a system that's treating people unfairly. there is been that effort as well with the knee. i think nancy pelosi and the kente cloth is something that is worth dwelling upon a little bit. the one thing though that i see is that when it comes to the knee, context is everything. i just got an e-mail last week i got a high school where the

football team took a knee and people in the stands took in the because because of the racist and snap chat going aroundd the school so the light matters like a long with the lgbtq flag folding them up high and taking a knee, situation mike that is really powerful. and a tremendous agent of anti-oppression in the very challenging set of circumstances. a high school football game where much of the chagrin of the administration and a parent and all of this, so the power is still there. it's exercising away that you need to take your wrist. there's no risk in nancy pelosi taking any or with t to be for example because the franchise ownership group wants to market the team is some sort of antiracist and want to appeal to

generations or something liket that and to get those dollars. that's a different circumstance than people risking something and i wish this wasn't the case but one of the things that is power is risk in the way in which we intuit that when you observe it from a distance. >> you mentioned the pride flag in the black lives matter flags being flown together and that's like the verse in context around when people took a knee or s something similar and athletic for a test so i'm wondering the interviews he had which one was the most memorable and stood out to you the most? >> whoa. on one level thinking of which interview affected me the most in my heart is like oh my goodness choosing between favorites. i treasure all of these relationships so much but the

one i carry with me is the case of rodney astin jr. because they are so much those and what he went through. this is a football player and ohio which is a suburb of cleveland. his family moves from a rough neighborhood in cleveland to the suburban brunswick precisely so he gets a better public school education. his parents are trying to do things the quote unquote right way to reach the american dream. you get out and younn move up ad all that stuff in here is rodney acton jr. and the community where there's open racism free faces harassment from the police and the sum of football team and here's all sorts of racial abbott tests going on all the time hamidi said hey i find that offensive his teammates look at him like he's half off the beam saying what he talking about? were talking about you.

you are one of the good ones. you are our teammate. it's the other ones, that's the problem and ended vision he's at the school where the consul he feels like he has to tip toe through raindrops basically watching everything he says and does. he didn't want to go to a party because other people were drinking and not because he was concerned about himself drinking and saying something that he was worried about being around classmates when they are drinking in their get loose and what the heck areri they going o say to him? he's in this very difficult box already and then the videos come out. the memories of people like trayvon martin and videos philando castile and he's connecting his own personal experience with the experience of ccing on social media and just wants to do something. he has no idea what that is. and then colin kaepernick takes a knee and it's like eureka a

lightbulb goes off. that's something i can do. i would argue if you study social movements and social struggles this is colin kaepernick's great gift to the grand history is that gesture. it's the gesture that you can replicate and do and everybody knows what it is you're talking about. it? with him that he can do thatha too. so he takes in the end when he does this is when the story in a lot of respects began. now when talking to people at like wow the real story after the knee is taken and you start seeing the coach supporting or not supporting. it's like stabbed in the back by teammates are stabbed in the front by teammates or do i get solidarity and are their teachers a patat me on the back and call me john carlos in the hallway by k in stone carlos?

or are there concerns that teachers and particularly professors are getting bad grades because they object to what you are doing on the sporting field which caused one of the people i interviewed to transfer out of school because she was sure they were trying to push her out through her grades which must be a nightmare if you think about having to go through that. he went through all the paces and what moves me so much about rodneyes is two things. one is all the hardship he went to he has no regrets whatsoever needs very proud of what he did. the second thing is when the summer of 2020 happened to have these protests he felt a sense of vindication about being on the right side of history which i would argue is one of the most empowering things a person can feel when they feel like i wrist something and now that's actually bearing.

>> that definitely resonated with me and there were interesting developments with lebron james. he was from ohio. he went to a school for a better chance and just to have that dream is what helped him get into the athletic world. one thing you mention mentioned is how he didn't know exactly what to do to vocalize or perform the rage he felt after watching or seeing all these different cases and colin kaepernick gesture gave him a template to follow along with. i want towa transition to a lite bit different topic but a lot of times would say publicly there was controversy between celebrities are colin kaepernick and j.d. who is from new york i

believe on whether or not that gesture was enough or whether or not that gesture was an impactful thing to get people of color and black people specifically around the nation are economic power in performing it through the sort of like the push of ownership is a better model. i'm curious to hear what you think that is. what is the kaepernick effect in the sean carter in effect and how do you think about those two things? >> i think of the sean carter effect as primarily benefiting sean carter while the kaepernick effect is something the benefits the masses.ep anytime, i would say beware of anyone who ever says it isn't enough because for me it's more important.

coli j.d. think the time for kneeling is done we need to transition out of protest. what they are really saying is we need to transition of the struggle and the spreader douglas said without joekel there's no progress so you need that struggle. it's the kindling of the fires that will create the change you see.to if you would have asked the version of the question where do you think jc sold out and i want to be like no not at all. you have to understand he's a billionaire. he's acting in accordance with the station in society and what jc is trying to angle for is for the denver broncos and if he wants to be the first black coach for the nfl more power to him but what that does for the family of george floyd i do not know. look at those poor communities that deal with occupation i do notic know. doesn't do a lot.

meanwhile with colin kaepernick it was inspiring people to self-actualized themselves as change agents and there's so much more that comes out of that historically thann just saying e need to have some sort of action plan that we can go to for the police. what that tents to lead to his a group of leaders who are slight and off of the movement and given thee responsibility of basically negotiating the terms of people's oppression instead of having the masses of people come together and enact change. there's confusion about this. it comes directly with how unfortunately too many people are taught that it's a collection of great men i'll post always men and very rarely women who are exceptional people and it's almost like they come

down from a planet and create this kind of change. we are all observers. we are not participants in the fight we are observers of these great people. that history is attractive to people for two reasons. one is we live in the celebrity culture and every time an individual is -- it's like bees to honey in that regard but also that kind of history can imbue good grade level opacity and people on what's important about this kaepernick effect is to give people a sense of action and action is absolutely critical if we are going to get from point a to point b and have a more just society than the one we currently live in. people salehi did was to take in the end first ofll all that's nt all he did but even if that was all he did it mean so much more

to so many more people than if jay-z gets a piece of the castle. >> that's very interesting. i wrote my thesis or the armor version of the my senior thesis on forms of activism with the controversy and one thing you're minded me of the silver rights activists and the political conversation with w.e.b. i never know how to say it. >> dubois. >> dubois and booker t. washington and on the washington side more economically advanced with ownership and those means and economic powers.

it was more political power for protests and all those things and it had nuance in that they things. i'm starting to see that reflected in this model where they advocate for small things that individuals can do like issues within the african-american community along the lines of class and colin kaepernick provided a protest at a political movement. i thought i'd hear your thoughts on the strategies that helped you can step -- conceptualize it.li >> i would say first and foremost dubois has been strongly proven right by history

and the booker t. washington model was put down your buckets where you're standing and build where you are that can benefit a small minority of people but it doesn't do anything for the population. it might segment small groups to enjoy the of the system that we live in but it's not going to do -- it's going to exacerbate the quality in a country that already suffers from dramatic inequality. we need massive massive poverty programs in the united states. that's not what jay-z represents. we need rest -- mass movements against structural -- and i think we confused together the movements for political and economic power. one of the laws against achieving true economic power is political repression. that's where booker t.

washington and his descendents really missed it. it's like a you expect to dold black power in the broadest possible way not in terms of just a few people but in the broadest possible sense politically. look what's happening now whether it's the anti-critical race theory bill or the voter rights suppression gerrymandering. these owned only political attacks on our political rights. affects peoples ability to be economically mobile so we have be able to do these things and i'll say this for colin kaepernick. i've attended his camps for young people in one of the things that is always stressed is w this idea of financial literacy. there are sessions where he gets experts to talk with young people about things like nutritional literacy. i'll never forget in chicago

there were a couple hundred -- and the question came out how many people here have fast food three times the last week and just about everybody raises their hand in the second question is how many of you have someone in your family thatou hs colon cancer and so many people raise their hands. it's tyingr together that self-determination of what we need is part of the political fight in it's an economic fight to not just eat vested in economic question in addition to the political question. the fusing of these issues is critical for any sort of liberation policy. >> i will do my last throwback but in chicago they are there these nutritional literacy programs or they have a panther

breakfast program and they believe actually they on the food that was meant for the children. itgr was totally. thesee things exist throughout time. >> they are will let you react to that. >> it's so powerful. the panthers pulled up this example that's really important shows you are just trying to build your economic base without a political fight in the police are still going p t to come in d any challenge to raise structural racism is going to be a very intense battle regardless. it's like having an economic fight in a political fight that's the legacy of the panthers. you need to be able to have ways which can build up a community in ways in which you directly challenge inequality and capitalism or you're going to

end up in a situation that's going to be the definition of not just the struggle but the entire community. >> i agree and i'd love to talk about present day. as i was reading it there were parts of the book and the big the beginning and the intros that i talk about things that feel so timely. i can't believe there's that time. it feels like a lot of the george floyd efforts and the things that happened are still timely so my question for you is in writing this because the story is not over. the kaepernick effect like you said there was a story that came out that can't be in the book is the book is already out but how

do you know when to wrap it up or when the story was complete if that's a feeling he felt that all? >> that's ultimate question. i called that the painter's question. would you take a step back away from the portrait and how do you know that last brushstroke is done and the incredible fear of knowing when she put the brush down it doesn't along to you anymore. it's that moment and i've written other books and it's that moment where you hit return and you send it to your editor or your publisherce and you know your baby is no longer yours. other hands are going to shape it. almost always for the better. still it will no longer be what you put together. you ask a terrific question because this is ongoing. we are going to see more protests in the years to come.

to me, the summer of 2020 was such an important moment in history in the history for racial justice in the history of protest in the history of struggle. my goodness protests in all 50 states, that never happened during the civil rights movement. in the same concentrated period of time at the idea that this country is irredeemably divided red states, blue states such of false division to the idea that we have protests in idaho andio protests in san francisco around the same issues about the same man who was killed. in minneapolis people are upset in ways that far transcend what occurred to george floyd and not even the other viral videos or anything like that. whater they start was a reflectn of their own lived experience is

and what happened to george floyd. that's the reason there would be protests that large and that intense. to me in the aftermath of those protests and thinking about okay getting this book out, we can get the book out in the fall of 2021 the anniversary went kaepernick set during the anthem starting at the nfl season, why not? that's a good point by which we start this discussion while being extremely humble about the fact that the story is an ongoing story. and it's so important. we share being history majors and having that sense of what has happened in the past. the past becomes dry and desiccated if we are not

applying it to understand the future. >> thank you. we are going to transition to the audience. >> already? >> yeah it's about that time. i will start with one of the things the author said, how did social political views and the intersection of sports come about and in the sports world is anyone else do it you do? >> a very good question. for me i was your age coleeta will end there was a basketball player for the denver nuggets who made the decision to not stand during the national anthem. when asked why he said that flag may be a symbol of freedom and democracy for some but it's an symbol of depression brothers.

i was somebody who is on two parallel tracks. i was very much into history and alli the stuff in terms of the history of social protest and how it changed h the world and people in the sub actualization of the individual was something that i was very into and the self emancipation of the individual. i was also really into sports just obsessed but to me being in sports meant knowing all the steps on the back of a baseball card and not billie jean king and john carlos. on espn when he refused. anthem they said he must be at traditionalist and my head exploded. i didn't even know what that was. so i went to the library and i also started reading -- my

roommate had a class the history of the black athlete and i just saw the professor yesterday when i was in minneapolis and when i was in college he was speaking school. he's 87 years old and he was at thee event. he said to me hey i love the work you are doing and i said your class change my life in a lucky man he said you didn't take my class. i couldn't believe he remember dad and i said yeah i didn't take your class. my roommate did then i read all of the books. i would sneak in your class and sit in the back so he was like so pleased to hear that and in my heart as i do all of this work. that's how i got into it. are there other people in the sports world? yeah there's a new generation of sportswriters who are looking at this anymore political view.

there has been up or found change over the last five years in terms of the sportswriting jobs that exist in young people don't want to just write about balls and strikes they want to talk about the sociopolitical context of sports and dedicated positions toto sports culture ad politics writers like the "washington post" "usa today" and a host of other papers could obviously the blogosphere. i started doing this 20 years ago and the landscape is profoundly different than when i started. >> that's really great. it's very inspiring. if you could put your professors named in for a book recommendation that would be great. i'd like to given another question.

>> i just want to make sure the audience t has that. >> it was great to see my campus and one of the traffic professors at my alma mater in college just called and told her mahmoud. it's great to hear from you. he had a face mask was that good trouble on it. the black national anthem at the opening of the nfl game has been supported in -- or many backgrounds. what do you think was the true motivation and how do you think this movement is received by players and fans and you think this change will last? >> yeahk are you this is all about the carrot and the stick. the nfl realizes that what colin kaepernick did he opened up the

limine ported over the place and you can't put it back in the bottle. he was the genie in the lamp in the nfl had to adjust to figure out how to deal the fact that it rests on the profound contradiction. you don't have the nfl without it deep labor and racial -- it has no black franchise owners and 70% of players are black and 100% injury rate. contracts are not guaranteed in the careers only three years. that's a rough set of material circumstances and a rough objective.ir it depends on the degree of vertical r authoritarian absentn making sure everybody knows their place and everybody does what they are supposed to do. here's colin kaepernick living the famous muhammad ali "he said

i don't have to be who you want me to be and there's a danger in that. that's why several i started the conversation this is about more than racial inequity. this is about who is supposed to lead and who is supposed to following colin kaepernick and others turned that on its head. i view the playing of the black national anthem with things likes slogans of racism and in some or allowing players to wear decals one their helmets in the social justice community inside the unit on their effort to corral the new consciousness that taking place and make sure that it's expressed to acceptable parameters that they can still control. that's what it's all about at the end of the day. about control. >> someone also asked its allies should on facebook and there'll

be a recording that comes out afterwards as well. there's one more question thatth we will move to that is interesting to me. it says you talked about mexico and 58 is the start of the modern era protesting in sports. are there other significant protest? a >> absolutely. this is why i love sports history. it's such an incredible lens in which to understand americanan history. politics are taken to the cake of organized sports in this country and this goes back to the 19th century. there has always been political rebels in sports dating back to the 1800's.ng the reason why is because sports rests on this huge contradiction. the inclusion in the reality of disquisition.ta anyone who's good at the sport to make it on the field and

anybody who tries hard enough to get into the game. a huge effort at ideological reproduction the idea that this country can teach a young generation particular at that time a young generation of european immigrants that you are no longer polish or irish italian, youon are american now. you can facilitate that for sports through this great meritocracy. that inclusion narrative was the myth because the reality was exclusion. women were not allowed to play in black and folks make your only give you want to. if we don't want to see or hear about them are not going to fund it. the whole history of sports has been this fight for inclusion despite his dam level playing field and marginalize groups binding expression of their own lives in the sports world. in that regard sports has always been the canary in the coal

mine. struggles erupt around the fight for inclusion in break out the broader society. that's why when you talk about the civil rights movement we talk about jackie robinson who comes into lake full of decade before this started the civil civil rights movement and in the comes into majorme baseball at dodger stadium. our muhammad ali coming out against the vietnam war and very few people in the country were were against vietnam or pdc these things were active in sports andn a very powerful manner and it can be an incredibly effective plans for changing united states. >> thank you so much for all the questions. i'm going to pass it back to you now. >> tacoria go marsha i have to say that was fantastic. i enjoy doing this with you so much and i really appreciate you

taking the time to do this. >> by at a great time too. thank you for being here writing the book. it's amazing and i want everyone to get it from your local store. it's a great read. >> the next you are in time you were in maryland we will go to van's chilly bowl. >> i want to thank you both. what a wide-ranging mind-blowing set of things we were able to talk about in one hour and i want to thank you and i want to thank all of you for being here tonight. as khalil said the program is recorded and we will post it tomorrow on the youtube channel. i think there'll be a link if you want that and i'm hoping you'll explore the other programs offered by the team. i'k

you for joining us tonight. i'd like to welcome and thank you for joining us tonight. two