i'd like to welcome and thank you for joining us tonight. i'd like to welcome and thank you for joining us tonight. two days, 23 hours in just about

30 minutes from kickoff of super bowl lvi in inglewood california. a super bowl -- some are saying and the road up to annually the biggest most analyzed and hyped game on the planet we haven't beenit deluge stories about the famous quarterback or the pressure he's likely to get from the rams and some of the best offensive in the nfl. the dominant roles of them off the field. the nfl has a racial equity problem. a class-action lawsuit filed last week against the league.

he's been hired as the miami dolphins -- and did as he sought to get their shot at the other head coaching jobs. he says quote roosevelt implemented and promises made yet nothing is changed. because the nfl quote in certain ways racially segregated end quote managed much like a plantation. the commissioner roger goodell looked at the problem citing the leaks though you to add diversity to his head coaching ranks is unacceptable in his words. and it leaked with 70% ofrs players are black only two head coaches are black and fiber minorities. of course jared feinstein one of

the best sportster was on the planet got in front of the story. his latest book "raise a fist, take a knee" race and the illusion of progress in modern sports came out in november. it lays out the decidedly mixed record of success. it's not just the nfl. it's baseball and college football andnd basketball. pro-sports has had a promoting and especially achieving racial equity. 30 teams to black managers and one black executive running team-based operations. the division in which alabama and ohio state and missouri and kansas started 130 programs in which 50% of the players are black or other minorities this past season. 80% of the head coaches were. the same for the people who

hired those coaches who were 81% of the athletic directors at those schools were and are. t of course there's pushback against players who might take a stand. he saw that years ago when footballs at the university of missouri stood out over the schools and university systems handling of racial and insensitivity -- on campus. lebron james told to shut up and dribble. colin kaepernick was out of football. john who i call a friend and a colleague is with us tonight to talk about his book and about the fact the issues of racial discrimination and inequity plaguing the society at large do not -- in sports and they have in the past and they don't now.

joining the conversation is j.a. anande who directs us poor journalism program at the school of journalism and media marketing ink and medications. when i first talked to john a while back about a program revolving around this book the first thing he saiden was this s the most important book i've written. so for john this is saying something. he's written 45 books including two of the most acclaimed and best-selling titles of all time a season on w the brink -- johns a longtime writer and columnist for the "washington post" as well as other national outlets and a member of five halls of fame including the national sportswriters and sportscasters hall of fame and basketball hall

of fame who won the curt got a word treated jeremy is in the copper sports journalists. for 10 years and columnist for "the los angeles times" and is a writer at the "washington post" and the "chicago sun-times." you may recognize him from hissp thousands of the parents is on the roundtablebl discussion show around the corner. if you have a question during the course of our discussion we hope you do you can submit it at the live chatns box. we will get as many answered as we can at the end of the presentation. john and james it's great to see you again and great to have you here. thanks so much for joining us and welcome to both of you. i will let you get started. >> thank you so much. it's great to be reunited with the two of you and i appreciate

that you thought of me for this discussion. certainly these are topics that i voice both are important and one of the reasons i gotts into sports is to help tell the stories beyond the field and beyond the arena and look at the interaction of sports and society. john is taken on that challenge most specifically in this book and of all the multitude that everyone starts with the same thing. what was the idea and the motivation behind this book at this time? >> first of all thanks for doing thiss with me. i'm grateful. take the time and we are both grateful for you for reaching out to us. my history with race and sports goes back to when i was college but i grew up in new york city and i t played ball all the time

in my neighborhood with kids black kids and kids. the only thing that mattered ana i'm sure you have experienced this, could you play? the did matter what race you were or what your ethnic background was. when i got to duke it was a lot different. politically and in every possible way. my junior year due played a football game with army and did back then as now was in football. the local paper i was starting to do some work for them as a staffer ate times and they asked me to cover the football game which i was thrilled. i got paid 50 bucks to write a lead and a sidebar. that was huge money. duke rallied in the second half when they brought in the freshman quarterback named mike dunn and i wrote about mike dunn coming in to save the game and i wrote my sidebar of how they

were created him as a college player. i was very happy with myself. i made the deadline flew home with the team i picked up the paper the next morning and saw the two bylines. when i got to the part were introduced mike dunn it was the duke black freshman quarterback. i was like, what? duke had black linebackers and black wide receiver's. dunn was the first black quarterback in duke which was 1975. i called the editor who edited the story and put in a sidebar to and i said what are you doing here? what does it matter what what color his knee said john is the first black quarterback we havek ever had or that's part of the story. the funny thing was when i was working on this book i was

talking to doug williams who wrote the forward the first black quarterback to win a super bowl and i told them that story and he laughed at me and he said boy are you naïve. of course g they would put that into the story. so that was my first experience with dealing with the fact that race was always there in one form or another. in 2010 there were other incidents and there were a lot of black athletes in black coaches throughout the years but in 2010 donovan mcnab came to play quarterback here in washington. in the eighth gameas of the sean he hadak taken every snap and washington fell behind 30-25. they took the kick off and rex grossman and the immortal rex grossman the chicago linebacker for the bears. which is prove he's a great coach. rex grossman came in the first

play he was back by a.com sue, game over. after the game he asked what made you change quarterbacks and he could have said i had a gut feeling about rex reed could have said he wasn't having a great game which he wasn't but i didn't know if he knew our two-minute offense. this is the 11th year quarterback midway through they season. so he was asked to begin he said i did not donovan was in shape to run back-to-back place. wow so this simmered for a week in washington was off the next week it is their bye week and chris mortensen who you know well and who i know well were quoted on espn that weekend that

the shanahan's according to sources it was anonymous the shanahan said the cut their playbook in half. this was a guy who took the team to the super bowl is a provo quarterback but i think the eagles had made the playoffs seven times in their 10 years there and in the week he's been being called out of shape, not prepared and finally and he knew where it came from. it came from one of the shanahan's. thet next day i went on a tv shw that i think you were on that was "washington post" live. i said to mike shanahan this is racial coding. this goes back to the 60s and 70s when people claimed blacks weren't smart enough to play the quarterback position and what was most fascinating was how i

was attacked in the washington media and also the national media. i was accused of playing the race card. which is what happened often when you bring up race as an issue. tony genji -- tony dungy says when i'd brought up race as an issue people would say why are you making race an issue and i would say because it is an issue.e. so that simmered with me until the anthem protest of 2017. colin kaepernick was clearly blackballed that it laid. most of the nfl media were writing stories quoting max sources saying the oh no he wasn't black old. old the starting quarterback and all of a sudden he's not good enough to be the quarterback in the league? they duly reported it enduring the anthem protest after donald

trump saran whenever players were kneeling mostly black. i thought wow we are really polarized in this country right now racially. i went to see john tompkins who i had known since i first got -- excuse me when he was in the middle of his career at georgetown. we fought for most of that time. it the legendaryy fight. >> i was enough to offer to go outside withth him and figure things out that way which would not have worked out well for me reporter: personally he laughed at me and refuse the offer that he had become a mentor for me in many ways. he was so smart and i went it i said to him i want to do a book on race in sports but i don't know where to start. he said he might as will try to

explain the trinity and he pointed a finger at me and said which is why you have to do it. i still do not away in the next year i found away in which was lamar jackson who as you remember when he came out of college was told, wide receiver become a running back and you weren't right for an nfl quarterback. josh allen had become a star. mayfield was okay and just -- josh rose was on the sport team already. lamar jackson went in the first round and chosen by the first black -- we all know what came to pass.

lamar was the unanimous mvp in the second year in the league and when he got hurt this year the raiders fell apart completely and they never won another game after he was injured. he o was at one of the 45 best quarterbacks in the nfl and he had all these experts the scouts the pundits onn tv. i'mt not picking on him but he happened to be a hall-of-famer who said he should be a quarterback. steve young tarkenton was very ofast. no one ever suggested they change positions. if lamar jackson was the exact same player he was no one would have ever suggested a change positions. that was my way into the book. >> i want to go back to the story told about the duke army game.

from your conversation about how in some cases black people want race to be included and it's not a sidebar when nomar jackson is theha mvp. thee racial component added significance and patrick mahomes is a super bowl mvp in the racial component of that is significant. how did you become aware of that and how to do appropriate that in your writing? >> it's funny because i went and talked to mikepe dunn after that happened. we were fellow students and i apologizee to him. mike said don't worry about it. i understand why they did it. he's a very bright guy and you make a good point that the first time interviewed doug williams and this became a famous story at the super bowl later but i

apologize to him a year late after reading the "washington post." he was in his second year y at e time writing a story about it in the bucs had gotten good with the playoffs that year. wheng i sat down with doug i sad i'm really sorry making you answer all these questions again said i've been a black quarterback all of my life so fire away and don't worry about it. when people reference guilt sometimes i think i had some of that for the reason. there's a reason for us to feel guilty about the way a been treated in this country for four plus years now but also in sports and leonardrd hamilton of florida state coach who grew up in jim crow in charlotte north

carolina said look for any of us to say progress hasn't been made to. i grew up with onlywa water fountainst and had to sit in the balcony at the movies and dealing with that throughout my boyhood. that's totally different now and he said that there are people many of them 74 million people voted for donald trump a little more than a year ago who want to believe because there's no jim crow it's okay. we don't have to worry about race anymore. that's just not true as we all know. the fact that you mentioned the brian flores case. it's 2022. jackie it will be 75 years since jackie robinson made his debut in brooklyn, april and we are still dealing with somee of the

same stuff. you know that. you live with it every day. >> and the participation major league they spoke. take in the -- in >> in the 70s and the mid-80s. is now up to 8%. >> half of it was four years ago. >> it was almost 20% about point a part of it is just the way our society has changed kids want to play basketball may want to play baseball. they don't want to play baseball as much. when i was a kid we played in the school of yard or the park every single day when the weather was warm. now you don't see that. the weather is warm you see kids playing basketball. again mlb has not done a great job. roger goodell said it's the

situation with coaches and general managers. we had three black coaches in the nfl last year and now we have two plus some are bi-racial and identify as black. the number has actually gone down. it was already really low and for a long time last month we only had one black coach in the nfl and he has a job because he's going into the hall of fame. and i asked mike and tony dungy and they leaned on both of them heavily as you note in the book. why would roger goodell -- because i know goodell and i got along fine with him. i was turned down flat. owit i interviewed every other major commissioners turned down flat.de ironically the day i put out the statement it was almost word for word the e-mail that i got from

brian mccarthy on why roger wouldn't speak to me. the nfl is busy trying to promote diversity and blog, law, blah. i said why wouldn't wouldn't he talk to me they both said the same thing. he's embarrassed. i don't think roger goodell is a bad guy. they are paying him 44 million bucks a year. >> doug williams wrote the forward of this book and in s it he said a lot of people would shrug and say it's just another black guy whining so i wonder how that came into play starting do you think it couldld have ben published if you're not? >> that said very good question i don't know the answer that. michael w wilbon and who you knw well said to me when i talk to them early in my reporting that

it was better that this book was written by a guy and there would be some guys one of the publishers who turned down the idea there were five publishers that turned it down but how can you write a book about race when you are why? is a racist and it? the written books about being a college basketball coach without ever being one and about half on the pga tour in knows i've never been on the pga tour. i don't pretend i know what it's like to be black. i've never been pulled over for dwb. you would be right in there i would be pulled over at some point for driving while black

and exception to that story with the on fix swimmer who was stopped by a while walking his dog. because the was convinced he had somehow stolen the dog. i said to colin -- but i went into the book knowing i can't empathize with what it's like to be black but i can sympathize sympathize because all the people i've known and all the people i've gotten to interview for this book. you would be amazed the number of people well you probably wouldn't be amazed that many of the people i interviewed thanks me for wanting to do the book are the exact same reason e that will haunt said it's better that you were doing it because you are white. they liked the fact even though i can't understand what it's like to be black but i was

trying to explain what it's like to be black. >> or riding bicycle while black. in georgetown when i was an internist. we talked about hosting and where do we stand now and in particular why are we seeing advancements? we have criticized the numbers and saying we don't do it the job of raising when the right thing is done and if you look the tampa bay buccaneers they have had three black coaches in their history and they just won the super bowl last year with the staff purposely filled out with great coordinating positions in along with two female positions.

so the purposely did this and it wins a super bowl with it but it doesn't lead to anyer wave. we had the same coaching staff in the semi finals of the nfl playoffs fraser and morris. gall these coaches and of coure eric be enemy. why haven't the people who have shown you can do it increased and created some type of copycat around the league? >> that's a great point in s the pointed tony dungy me to me. the notion that they are not qualified guys out there is just so far out of line right now. clearly there are plenty of black coaches out there. and i think some of it goes back to the simple fact that there

are are the packers owned by the fans. 31 nfl owners, 30 of them are white and interestingly the owner of jacksonville who grew up in pakistan has never hired a black coach. and we see how well that's worked out for him in recent years especially this past year. you'reu' talking about people ad this is true with the nfl and big-time college sports and major league baseball. it's true in the nba although the nba have had so many black coaches dating back to bill russell with the celtics and the nba was so far ahead of the curve. white guys looked at somebody

sitting in her office and they were just comfortable with someone who looked like them. a lot of these are old white billionaires who don't want anybody -- there used to nobody telling them what to do and uset it people telling them they are right no matter what they do and i felt before the flores lawsuit and there were people on the phone saying to houston and miami there were only three jobs left open. we have got to hire a black coach or two. i felt before that wind -- was fired the day after than a full season and attack steve rossen attacked the nfl for the fact and there's critical evidence that not only is it harder to get hired it's harder -- robbie

smith was fired in chicago. >> jim caldwell had the best record of any lions coach in 60 years. how would they doneve since the? is really donesn well for them s an it? but i felt likeke some of the owners said we are going to let anybody in the media or anybody else tell us what to do or who tor higher. the first six hires in the hiring cycle were all white. i'm not saying any of them are unqualified. the whole bill belichick thing kind of sums up who these owners are. john merra's is supposed to be a distinguished guy. and yet there was dahle check congratulating flores for

getting the giants job three days before the interview and someone else had already been hired so kind of an interview with that? >> what do you make of that situation. you talked to tony dungy for the book about the situation. >> yes you know tony dungy is a jump on the table and shout guy. he always wants to hear both sides of the question and i was sitting in signing -- at the dining room table and i said eric be enemyhe and before i cod finish the question he said now that was racism. this was years ago. this was to hiring cycles ago and he said there's no reason for eric be enemy to not have a

job based on what he has accomplished. he's running the best offense in football and he still is. as i said i mentioned when i interviewed eric the enemy for the book he was bright, he was smart and he was funny. he was a storyteller. he clearly had a great memory. he recited to me a poem or a chant that is coach in new orleans when he was 10 years old would recite at the end of the practice every day. the notion that he got the job because he doesn't interview well is. and thet other is he didn't call

a play. neither did doug pederson and won the super bowl. i'm being repetitive forgive me. there's no reason for eric and i may not have a job. these are bright young coaches in eric is not that young anymore. dashes. seems like everyone is tied to sean mcvay.as hire a guy that's white and in his 30s and doesn't shave every day. sean mcvay is a terrific coach, the second super bowl on sunday but that shouldn't be the role modelel for who you are hiring for the role model should be how good have you've been as an assistant or how good were you as a head coach? clearlyms there were circumstans that are granted him from playing in cleveland.

is done well in new england. just because he gets fired once doesn't mean he shouldn't get another chance although willie randolph and baseball have a winning record with the new york mets and the completely turn them around from 71 wins to 97 wins. he got fired and that was 13 years ago ago and has never gotten another job. white managers get recycled every game baseball. >> i can't think of the last time i've heard willie randolph's name and you just set it right here. it no longer seems like news and get how many of the better jobs go to black coaches. i want to point that out. tyronn lue doc rivers and

infrequently they look at the list of black coaches who have won an nba. we are seeing a represented number throughout the league right now. guys like steve kerr y and gregg popovich that you spoke to, what did you learn from them about how a white coach ken succeeds in a sport that's predominantly white? >> when you talk about kerr and popaditch you talk about guys who really understand what it's like to be black. both of them told me that george floyd thing change their outlook and these are guys that had a pretty good outlook on the issue beforehand. he said my i don't know about what's going on in this country. >> yes stunning to me.

given the amount of time and the interest that they take about the concerns of their black players and after all that time felt like they didn't know enough. >> mike krzyzewski was the same way. he did zoom call's with every former black player to chide to learn more to try to understand the frustration from folks you didn't understand the frustration. that's way to the black lives matter video that he did. it's really passionate and he told me he didn't write anything. he asked a former player to stand next to the camera and he spoke to know when smith and said this is how i feel. popaditch said he had his first experience understanding what he

was in college at the air force academy and they were playing in north carolina and he and his teammates went to a club. they were in line and they got to the front of the line and the bouncer looked at the three white guys want black eye and he said said to the black guy you can't come in here. again they were in colorado which is different from north carolina and greg had grown up outside of chicago. what are you talking about he can't come in? we don't let black people in. popovich said he realized that night how white his life had been that he had never even though he played ball with black guys he had never known black guys and he made it a point to try to understand and he told me he told his players on different occasions if i were black i would have gone to jail a number of times echoes of the way police had dealt with him.

and you know steve he's one of the brightest guys out there and he's a popovich disciple. he went on a reading spree to try to understand better what it's like to be black and one of the coaches told him he was watching the news one night after the ahmaud arbery shooting and his 8-year-old son walked in and he didn't know he was there. his son turned him and said bad is it true you can't run in her neighborhood because that's how ahmaud arbery got murdered. i never had to deal with that one has a kid that anybody who is the father, a black father has to give their kids a talklk about dealing with police. don't give them an excuse. mike collins told me a few years

backck when they were getting their driver's licenses he explained it to them and his older son said come on dad, that's not going to happen. this is 2018 and it's a different world than what you grew up in virginia to he said okay and three times in the first year his son had his driver's license -- to who was stopped for dwb in the question was sized the same, where did you get this car? >> and when you commented on te driver's license to that change anything? >> it happened twice within her neighborhood where he lived in pittsburgh. tony dungy told me he got stop driving home late from work one night follow than follow and they finally pull them over and claimed because he knew the was behind him he was being extra careful and he claimed he made a right turn on red without

stopping. tony said come on you are just giving me a hard time. he said it could have escalated and the story about that was doc rivers told me when the clippers played in the old l.a. sports arena they had the drive to south central l.a. to get to the arena and one afternoon doorman who is on the team rolled over and said dad and the next thing he knew he was across the hood d of the car. a black guy driving a nice car comment had to be stolen. >> one person% of the audience and thank you for mentioning ramdass and another i just finished reading your hook and it's the best additions to my sports library. the third one, one of my best friends with his wife princess

what they could do to help was to always say we need your voice and thank you for using your voice. i also want to use that to go back to what you had to say about popaditch and kerr and their need to listen that's the solution willingness to listen? when we asked how can things change as it simple and is that requests that difficult to ask? >> yes that would be a great solution. unfortunately it's a difficult back to thein i go 74 million people who voted for donald trump. i'm not saying they are all racist. donald trump's a racist. you can't argue that if you know

his life any know his policies and if you know the words he has spoken. and yet all these people chose to vote for him. and thank joe biden was elected i found that very discouraging but especially after trump had been inar office for four years and if you didn't know who he was before he gotic into office you had to know who he was after he got into office. remember it was trump t who invited the anthem protest when he gave that rant in alabama saying you know what i want to see happen in? during our national anthem fire that the head coach. >> the protests had died down. >> the week before that rant six players had -- in the next week or players in four states in the lockerrs room. comments and gave his players

the option to stay in the locker room if they wanted to. i was working on a book on playing quarterback in the nfl that i he said he felt so bad for his black teammates if they kneel they are going tooo get booed and considered unpatriotic and they will be considered betrayers. if they don't kneel aren't they betraying their race at this point when the president has literally challenged them and colin kaepernick is being blackballed and by the way i've never talked to a player white or black didn't think that colin kaepernickla was black old. it was aal year and a half ago

now. i think again it's hard for people to understand that just becauser raised doesn't affect reyour life because if you are white in thisel country a lot of people were completely unaffected by race and just because it doesn't affect your life doesn't mean it's not an issue. and to say it's not an issue when people say why they make race an issue, well because it isn't to say oh i don't think it's an issue you are being either naïve or or flat out. >> you spoke to tomlinson and smith and i'm going to paraphrase this question for the audience. you think history will look at colin kaepernick -- in a similar light?

inactivate talk to him quick >> he was involved in that. >> i think it's a netflix production. my guess it will be fairly sympathetic. the larger point is when people do something where they know they are putting themselves in jeopardy that's what smith and john carlos did. so did norman the australian who were supporting the group that they were a part of that barry edwards started prior to the olympics.

he was pilloried in australia for that and was an outcast. only after he died, he died in 2006 carlos -- were both pallbearers by the way. 2012 the australian parliament formallyly apologized for the wy he had entreated. they all knew. colin kaepernick new when he knelt for the anthem that would cause consequences and the affect his career. i thought maybe roger goodell would get on the phone with somebody and say higher brian flores right now but it didn't happen they think chances are very good brian flores will never work in the nfl again. he's only 30 years old. he should be going into the peak years and maybe he'll end up as

a college coach somewhere. i think there's a good chance his nfl career is over and he should he viewed as a martyr a professional martyr. up with interesting with deion sanders at -- and jackson and these prominent nfl names coaching at historically black colleges in the future. i would keep an eye on that trend as well. >> the only thing i would say if deion sanders continues with the success he's had why wouldn't you higher deion sanders as a coach? he is evidence he can coach and he can certainly recruit. i wrote a column about deion in december and i said i wish my alma mater duke had hired him

instead of another white coach. >> how about a prime-time at do? with that were? >> i think they would love to deion sanders especially the one and by the way i don't know how well you know deonte but i got to know him very well when i did my book on the baltimore ravens and i'm telling you he could take over any role. he's got that personality 30s also so smart. >> deion sanders coaching at duke wouldte have to be your net book. it would have to be. the question here can we find a pathway to head coachde positios without dealing with -- are successful because they are

bigger stronger and faster. white athletes are good because they play smarter. the media and the way we shape perceptions. >> we are all guilty rate we are all guilty of looking the other way with baseball. there is definitely that perception and there is coding particular on tv like the white point guard who is so cerebral the most cerebral point guard ever know was tommy anderson who wasn't taken wasn't fastl and wasn't quick. all they did was win the game for you. and now coaches at harvard. and by the way one of my favorite stories they play m.i.t.it every year usually ther

opening game.me the m.i.t. students come to harvard and when the harvard players introduced they chant -- which i think is great. perception is reality the old saying unfortunately yeah people believe perception that the reality and like what's her name on "fox news" saying shut up and drivel. most of the time upon james, he's not always right none of us are but the notion that because you play ball or because you are black or both you can't have an opinion about things. it happens to me all the time politics have been a part of sports forever.

go back to the 1936 olympics and adolf or go back to the first greek olympics when the guy was running and ran it whereupon to get news update. that was the first olympics. >> another question professional teams like the how are they able to get away with racial and equities in hiring? >> it'sen a great question. major league ice ball has they mare exempt and i'm blanking on the name and the nfl is not as

much. >> antitrust laws. >> antitrust laws. the way they get away with it unfortunately is most boosters of major schools are white. i have a friend who has since passed away who loved duke and loved all of duke's basketball players because they were good. but it was absolutely racist and he was fine with blacks playing for the school and helping a school when but he didn't want any of them over for dinner. that's true of a lot of fans and alumni at the school and i know i'm overgeneralizing. a lot of people who will defend athletes from their school black

or white don't want to have that black athletes to their house for dinner and in many cases don't want a black person coaching their team. >> i've been thinking recently about movie calling the l.a. dodgers and he always talks about tribalism and being associated with different tribes. you can't necessarily say, it's not necessarily racism. it's tribalism and people will hire people they are comfortable with and i would say racism comes with why had they lived such segregatedd lives than they haven't been around black people are people of distant --

different races to be more comfortable. saying we are segregated. when it's time to higher the only feel comfortable as certain people but we can't legislate, we don't want to force hiring. we can force interviews. has to stop short of mandating people based on race. therefore we can't do that and how do you make people comfortable if they come from a society that says that? and it's a catch-22 question at both the those may be biased. they would be shocked if he said to them that they are racist and act in a way that's racist. i don't think mike shanahan is a racist but i do think without thinking about it he resorted to

racialon coding. somebody pointed out to him he'd say oh my that's not what i meant. and that's the way he was thinking. i know people who well a perfect example jon gruden. he said there's not a racist bone in my body, of course there is. i think he honestly believes there iss not and i think that's true of many people who would say i'm not a racist. i had a friend who worked on the pga golf tour for many years and we used to argue all the time about the fact that i believed he was a racist. he was a friend of mine. i'm not a racist at all. jim thorpe was one of my best friends when i played on the tour. okay, what would you do i asked if they -- came to the front door and introduce you to her

black void friend? he looked amini said i'd go get my shotgun. >> wow. >> hiring somebody rather than interviewing them because they have to interview someone art to completely different levels. i give him credit because he had art he met his legal obligation by interviewing rob -- and tomlin just boom away. thent other unders -- interestig thing is ron rivera grew up in california. is considered a minority because he's and i asked brian mccarthy of the nfl i said so when leaving gillman were coaching were they considered minorities to guess they are? he said no.

the bottom line is like you said we now have two coaches and one mixed race coach. >> a final question my personal favorite all your books is -- and i read that on the way to covering my first british open. why hasn't tiger woods would to an explosion or a greater wave of what offers? it's been 25 years since the masters? >> when tiger won the nationals in 1997 a lot of money started pouring into the first tee and we all thought we were going to see a lot more, not tiger woods. very good pga tour level black players. the first tee has one player on

the pga tour. scott langley is left-handed, he is a minority but not one player. and i think some of it has to do with tiger not only tiger is out there and it's great but it's not like he's aggressively out there trying to say hey look at me. try to grow up to be like me. tiger is private and that's all you need to know about who he is. and -- isig completely the opposite of tiger in personality. ..li says the first he isn't about golf. it's it it ain't enough. it's about you know, it's it's daycare at a golf course and what harold is suggested is they

need more programs in golf like the one he grew up in he got to play at a golf a municipal course in gastonia, north carolina. for his dad paid a hundred dollars for the summer and he got to play monday through friday. we need more of that in golf. not so much people saying, okay learn the rules >> in the etiquette and that is the way that you do it you go out and play. >> that is awesome and steve, give input here. >> and is somebody who you know, is being able to share the dinner and conversation which you held, that was vastlyee insufficient and this has been terrific and jerry, having a both of you guys, like i cannot thank you enough for being with us tonight and i wish we had two hours to do this but i suspect that we will be talking while i

know that will be talking about these issues you know, will be on tonight and sunday and you know, probably well beyond when were doing what we are doing. and john's book at the end is taken the similar progress in motorsports and so we encourage you to buy it at your local independent bookstore or on will shop .org which supports and up into bookstores across the country and john thank youo agan so much, and jerry thank you again so much and i want to thank all of you as well from the kansas city public library sing i think you john and thank you for your work. >> cspan shop .org assis man's online store, browsers latest collection of cspan products and apparels about, home decor, and accessories, there's something

for every cspan fan and every purchase help support our nonprofit operation, shop now, or anytime at cspan shop .org. >> be up-to-date in the latest in publishing with book tv broadcast about books, with current nonfiction book releases, plus bestseller list as well as industry news and trends through insider interviews and you can find about books on c-span now, our free mobile app or wherever you get your podcast. c-span has unfiltered coverage of the u.s. response to russia's invasion of ukraine, bringing you the latest from the residence and the white house officials, venting on and the state department as well as congress also has international perspectives from the united nations, and statements from foreign leaders all on the cspan

networks, the cspan now free mobile app and cspan.org/ukraine, our web resource page where you can watch the latest videos on demand, and follow tweets from journalists on the ground, go to cspan .org/ukraine. >> weekends on "c-span2" are an intellectual feast, every saturday american history tv, documents american story and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors, funding for "c-span2" comes from these television companies and more, including media calm. >> the world changed in an instant and media calm was ready, internet traffic soared and we never slowed down, schools and businesses went virtual we powered a new reality because of media, we are built to keep you head. >> media calm, along with these television companies s