tv Kathryn Smith Baptists Bootleggers CSPAN October 3, 2022 3:53pm-4:34pm EDT
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big and small.charter is connecting us. >> charter to medications supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers givingyou a front row seat to democracy . >> now it's my pleasure to introduce catherine smith. catherine smith is a journalist and history writer with along time interest in and pr and his times. he is the biographer of marguerite alice levine who was fdr's private secretary, counselor, confidant from 1921 to 1941 and served as his de facto white housechief of staff . in addition to her book the gatekeeper catherine co-authors a mystery series with kellyto run . she also impersonates lane for a tell-all book about life and has given more than 100 presentations at venues including the fdr library,
little white house in west national world war ii museum. her most recent book is baptists and bootleggers: a prohibition expedition through the south with cocktail recipes . she considers the repeal of the 18th amendment to the one of the greatest achievements of the early review. catherine lives in anderson south carolina with her husbandliam . please join me inwelcoming catherine smith . [applause] >> i was telling patrick if i had to mention sandals it might have drawn a bigger crowd in today but we're still having a goodtime without . baptists and bootleggers, you may be wondering how i came up with that title and the answer is my father is an economist, an academic economist, for many years cleansing university and he
had a theory, he developed a theory of government regulation about five years ago that he called bootleggers and baptists. the way that the theory goes is it regulation will be more durable if there is a collection of moral interest pushing for and capitalists who have a profit motive and in the south it was illegal to sell alcohol for many years in and in places it still is. the baptists are in favor of that because it's a sin to drink on sunday and most other days to. the bootleggers are in favor of it because that opens the market for them. they can, it's the only place to get alcohol sobootleggers and baptists . i have a son, adam smith with ac. adam c smith and a few years ago. my father co-authored a book about bootleggers and
baptists and it was a collection of case studies called letters and baptists and i was so proud of them. there's 50 years difference in their ages and they wrote this book together and it's really well done and as soon as i would tell people and get the title out they'd say bootleggers and baptists, that sounds like a fun book. and then i'd have to say well, it's an economics book. it's interesting but itit's not really fun so then i thought what if i wrote a really fun book about bootleggers and baptists, the real bootleggers and baptists of the prohibition era so with their permission i took the original title and flipped it to call it baptists and bootleggers because i thought it would be a shame if someone ordered their book and got mine and even worse that they ordered mine and got theirs and say where are the cocktail recipes? so that's what i did. to begin with i kind of go through the early part of
america. the colonial period heand the early years of our countries to say how did we get in this position that by 1919 congress and the aamerican public thought it would be a good idea to ban alcohol. we were a nation of drunkards, really almost from the beginning . that's ken burns used that as one of the titles for his great series on prohibition a few years ago. it was just a tradition of really heavy drinking. it owreally began with when th pilgrims began on the mayflower . they got blown off course and were supposed to go to virginia and wound up in massachusetts and the reason they stayed on sure is they were running out of beer and they said we got to start growing something so we can make some beer to drink and it was a bad decision. probably influenced by alcohol. but anyway then you get things are going along and nk you think about washington
and his men. they didn't always have food at valley forge but they almost always had run. and one of my favorite heroes of the revolutionary war is a man named francis marion on the low country of south carolina which is here near charleston. he was a continental army officer and the british had already captured savanna and were headed to charleston and he went to a dinner party that was hosted by someone else, some other officers in the army and the tradition of the time was if you had a dinner party for gentleman you would like the dining room doors and no one could leave until they were either all under the table or they run out of punch and makeyour own wine . and francis marion was a fairly mischievous fellow and he jfinally had enough so he decided let me just jump out thesecond floor window . course or was pushed but you landed in the street, broke his ankle and had to go home
to recover in berkeley county which is outside charleston. meanwhile the british captured charleston and all of the continental army officers had to take an oath that they would not fight anymore against the crown and even if it called out they'd have to fight for the crown or else they were sent to saint augustine prison or put on these awful prison ships out in charleston harbor and do you know how hot it is their right now could get backn a horse, which was a good look for him because he was this little runny guy who was about five feet tall. his legs were kind of deformed his knees not but put him up on a horse. he looked pretty good. so as soon as he could get up on a horse again, he started leading this marauding bang a band of gorilla fighters in the swamps of south carolina. so he was called the swamp fox
by the british commander because he was just impossible to catch. and and the place that he worked out of became known as hell hole swamp because the british commander said it was one hell of a whole of a swamp and many years later it became a hotbed of moonshine making but anyway, >> any way, francis and a few south carolina turned the tide. by the 1820s and 1830s. the average amount of alcohol consumed was 7 gallons of pure alcohol per year. i don't mean 7 gallons of beer, wine, or whisky. i mean, the pure alcohol. today, t it's about 2.5 gallons. that tells you about how much
people drank. i shared that bit. some t of you aren't doing your part. the 1820s and 30s it was realized by women p and the movement began that was lead by people like stanton and suzanne b. anthony. women were suffering. there was a patchwork of laws there was no divorce. they could keep the children. theds drunken husband's became a real problem. there wasn't some drunken women too. so, thatf was the beginning of
the union. suzanne b. b anthony asked to speak a to an organize called te son'se of temperance. so, she went off and worked for women's suffer age. the two movements were tightly inflamed. the civil war comes along and they decided to raise money. it could get army vibes with col.mi this with with this administration. he i started out at two-cent per gallon.n when the south was welcomed back the people of the mountains whok mad been making moonshine for a revenue agent. hey, bodega, wee want the excise tax. we have to pay to be in the army that wasn't popular in the south
at the time. so, it began a period of what these menf called themselves blockaders and they had whiskyns wars and moonshine wars in the mountains. t this is b against the revenue agent.hy the m moonshine makers were at r with each f other fighting for e market share. in 1874 an organize called the women's christian temperance union wctu. you mightht have had a grandmotr part of the wctu. you think ofch the lips that toh liquor never touch mine.or they were known for their big white ribbons. the lady who was the leader for many years was francis willard. speaking and writing.vi i'm convinced they could have
lead the d-day invasion. anyways anything they e could do to empower women. the age of sexual content from 10:00 to 16. this happened in the state of 1895. my favorite person in the book was the member of the wctu, a radical member carry. she was born in kentucky during the civilng war. her first was a alcoholic doctor.e she must have been pretty naive shdidn't u realize he was a druy until after they were married. he was dead within a year leaving her withea a small baby. living with her second husband
in kansas and decided, the lord told her she needed to start on a mission to destroy saloon. so, she ramped up her weapon of choice. she went to a saloon, i'm sorry the methodist minister's wife to thes top of the voices breaking mirrors and windows. just wrecking the place. theyey whipped out for the medicine lodge.ta it's supposed to be state but is wasn't. she moved onto bigger and better things weef get weaponry. the favorite was the hatchet. she would get at hardware stores. n never photographed without her bible. she called herself carry nation
your loving home and defender. she cut a wide path and she went to t england. she went to washington and demanded she have an audience with theodore roosevelt. they demanded joint house of congress. sheye stayed up in the ladies galleries where shehe sold a miniature a hatchet pen. by the time she died in 1912. a a lot of advances. especially in the south. bootleggers, decided to look at the south during proinhibit ambition because we went dry for the rest of the country. they got really good at producing and transporting and selling alcohol by the time they got dry. georgia went dry in 1907.
by 1919 every state was dry. it shouldn't have surprised you it was louisiana. it never got dry. now, one of the supporters was roosevelt. she was very involved in the suffer age movement and history ofol severe alcohol. her father was severely alcoholic and died when chicago was s a small child. she u had an alcoholic uncle and brother.re one of her children had a bad problem. she wasn't a fan of drinking. fdr was a social drinker. he called himself a stamp until it was politic to become wet.
moves on fdr was assistant secretary the paper publisher from north carolina. daniels ask assistant secretary under wilson. his cause was wiping out. there was a tall order and banned stronger than coffee on ships this is why we call it a cup of joe. fdr was his lieutenant in that cause. the first decades of the century were very anti-immigrant, anticatholic, they were increasingly anti-german as we got into the war in germany.
they came into the country and many were catholic. you had the italians that were cal electricnd and drank whine. the germans were lutheran. the i wish catholic drank everything. these members were just afraid of the people. they didn't trust them and thought the catholic religion looked like voodoo. there hundreds called the anti-saloon league. most of the beaumont eries in theri countries were owned by germans thatrm immigrated here. most were affiliated with the breweries. did 16th amendment created an income tax.
allde of these things started coming together and in october of 1919 congress passed the 18th amendment that made it illegal to produce, transport, and sell alcoholn in the united states. most of the surprise of everyone it was ratified in 213 months. the 19th amendment follow. everything went as they saw it. they had the rosy beliefs that everyone would just switch to milk and prisons would say there were no more war crimes and insanity.rl it's a beautiful world. instead, it's the gang and criminalre interest realized we could make a lot of money here. the government stepped back. they are not collecting tax on it either.
so, people still wanted to drink and they found way to do it. there were major loopholes that enforced prohibition. one allowed municipal alcohol. anyone could buy a pint of whisky as long as you got a prescription that had a doctor that said you needed it. the american medical association came to the conclusion years before alcohol had no meniscussalpe value. when they found out they could charge m a three dollars fee thy changed their mind. we don't want to be hasty here. that kept allot of them in kentucky and they were 10 licensed distilleries in the country that could make this alcohol and bottles and six of them were in lieu wasville.
it was for reelectricallous purposes.. if you were catholic get your wine. it started out that there were some unusual people getting into the rabbi businesslike rabbi mcdonald. they live-inn a two room synagogue. they brought aor bottle of wine for the synagogue.r another exception was if you had alcohol and proinhibit ambition that began. wealthy friends could do that. the privateth clubs to keep alcohol on hand. another person p following the
practice wasd the president of the united states. warren harden moved his catch of liquor from his house to the white house. it was suspected when he ran out the justice department started supplier him with stuff that had been confiscated. he didn't serve alcohol at formal events but his wife was the barmaid. they didn't drink himself silly. fdr lost the race for vicein president during the election. he got polio the next year. c a couple of winners he constituent onbo the houseboat. what t was in their i don't kno. there was a martini.
there was a bootlegger with moonshine. the government was making an effort to control this. it's out of control criminal activity. they were so out manned and so out gunned.po they were poorly trained and they had gotten into the enforcement benefit of the rewards with the bribery. of course, the most famous of the o infamous gangsters were al capone. i found out al capone was from chicago. kind of like washington slept
here. there was income tax evasion. in thehe lat 20s a home outsideover miami beach where he lived and in florida. seen parading around. that's where he went after he got out. they had becomead a major issuef the campaign. aroundam the mid 1920s opinions. it started changing. this could have gone along with the methodist and baptist. this is going back to the
cocktailh parties. the murder rate was twice it was today. in new york and chicago. al smith they were nominated. it became an ugly race focused theyf accused him of a puppet. the party machine in new york. he lost in a landslide to herbert hoover. herbert hoover wins. that was on valentine's day. this was the valentine's day massacre in chicago. it was the most brutal.
al capone was the cause of it. in was with the distric' attorney's office being questioned atnd the moment. they reallyal started pushing public opinion. took to the t office the next t month and then october. that was the beginning of the great depression. the. gov ment, everybody funds dried up.os the governments funds were getting dry. hoover when he took office promised to p study stud prohibition. a woman who helped get him
elected named paul lean was the firstca on the national committe powerhouse and sunrising and decided a she had enough she started the women's national prohibition. again, she was in the same mold of the lady who ran the wctu. because her and her wealthy lady friendsch wrote a check. any woman in the country and five factory workers. the interesting thing has the same argument. theem movement you first had and
protecting families. there was no alcohol in the country. there was no reason to regulate the alcohol that wasn't there. there are rules against him. this is before prohibition. so, she endorsed fdr in 1920. they gong along with it but they adopted to repeal the 18th amendment. the winter congress repeated itnd bypassing the first. it went to be ratified. they asked congress to modify
the goals. to legalize the sale.se it quickly passed. roosevelt said the country agreed. alsod started the excise tax blowing back into the treasuries. thishe was with the ratification of alcohol of the 21st amendment thathe happened on december 5th, 1933. in the south, mississippi did not accept that until 1966. it was a dry state. this is until 1966. it throwha the regulation back o the initial state. each state could decide what they wanted to do. they could drag their feet except for louisiana.
south carolina in 1935 and the fact they waited so long kept the moonshine flowing they were selling moonshine and hired the young reckless teens to drive their model 4. all the way down. they would race each other and lead to car racing in some of the big stars. they had been moonshiners. so, to o tell the story of prohibition. i go to different places different bars and museums,
cemeteries and all of them have something to do washington the story.st i tell it in first person. we have hundredss of footnotes. i didn't make this stuff up. it's fun history. in each chapter i find recipes that a fiendly bartender wasla able to share with me. places to eat and drink. charleston and savannah. it was a fun book to write.
any way, my wonderful husband leo. walk-up to the mic so they catch you on book tv. oh, comeom on, someone has a question. okay, go ahead. >> i actually read the book. this is a friendly question. talk about, dawsonville. >> yes. >> the event you went to that's still ongoing there are a lot of places thatt haven't changed a lot in the south. dawsonville georgia is one of them. they call themself the birth
place of stock car racing. people of south carolina dispute that. w it's like who makes the best barbecue. this is the home of the racing family from dawsonville. they won a big nascar contest. it was a hotbed of moonshining. it was an straight shot down to atlanta. people were making the moonshine and they would have sold it to eachch other. when it got to be so high booted leggers would making it really bad. r they were using radiators. they have a moonshine and i went
to it to get a feel for, you know that culture. i think i knew what i was getting into. it was right before the election. it was fromn the 2020 election. the h guy running from congress had an ak47 on his campaign signs he won. ach woman from the club was holding it and a real one. they had the terrific stock car racing hall of fame museum there to the city hall. when i went into the distillerys and the sign said coon dicks.
i asked the lady if this what i think that are. they are raccoon gentles. you could give it to someone as a sign of aification. give me diamonds. i don't want a coon dick. that's what the culture was like there. they gave out awards for people to be inducted into the moonshinean hall of fame. o some of them were dead and relatives were accepting. a womannd spoke about her fathe. be surprised this is the real experience.
his recipe in the book if that's an inducement. it's a good mar teen knee. i have a good mar teen knee. all right, other questions? do we still have another minute or 2? don't be shy. people asked what was the thing that surprised me the most. i really liked bourbon. we went to louisville. we debt onnd a bourbon tasting. we went on and spent the weekend and toured distilleries. it's just a beautiful old grand hotel. it was the place where scott was thrown out of the bar several