tv Claudio Saunt Unworthy Republic CSPAN October 10, 2022 11:00pm-12:01am EDT
>> they are a huge amount half of alabama two-thirds of what became mississippi, about a fifth of georgia, and it's not just how much land they own but how valuable that land was. it was among the most valuable al cultural land -- agricultural land in the world at the time. removal covered the entire united states and think of it larger than seven story, and mostly the seven story but there were indian people in the north and northwest that moved as well and had much smaller plots of land by the early 19th century. >> you cover a number of other tribes who were also expelled from new york and ohio, and i know it ishi different from trie to tribe and state to state but generally, what kind of rights did they cast in the south. it was also contested.
it still contested to this day. but but they were until a series of court fully sovereign peoples with the only limitation being that they could not sell their lands to a foreign power that ch >> they could not sell the property tobu french for example and other way with sovereign people and had elections and they had court systems, they had constitutions so in the same way of the united states was fully sovereigned and so too were they in the early 19th century. >> before the draft to dispossess indians from the native lands in the 1830s, which is the focus of the book. the prevailing u.s. policy towardpr indians sense that jefferson with that approach.
>> we also called the indian policy if this was a policy that really justha happened from the beginning ofg the republic rigt up to the removal and it was eccentric and sometimes well intentioned and sometimes noted but the ultimate goal was to teach them english to have christian to make them farm in the same way as white farmers did with the time to get owl their seasonal hunt and dress like white people. ensuring all ways that is good
and cynical. this was the 308 seizure disorders and it was a policy that invaded people's personal background in many, many ways and sometimes they did that sincerely and s sometimes they d that strategically and that was in a way in the shallow. with the election of andrew jackson in 1828, it was a game changer in that policy. he ran on the promise to solve the indian question but pushing indians east -- or west of the mississippi. they should present this as a humanitarian solution to rescue indians from extinction. what evidence did proponents have for this and how was that framed? >> i should probably start by saying they've been dis-processed from their land
from their first moment they could set foot on the continent and between the republic and 1830, the people were in -- passed in 1830 and there was no formal consist federal policy to dispossess native people and it was training between native peoples and the united states. the policy needed to find the space and they couldn't say
dynamics of the quite comparable and where it was and they were frustrated they couldn't get this message out where they found some letters of cretes writing to the presidente and saying, you know, you keep repeating that over andov over again that we're de-mentioned but we're not. may are a growing population and stay where we are.
>> the against indian and the noble and it is well known that indian removal as it was so gentipu leave and who was making them. so there was vigorous opposition to the indian removal who was aligned in that opposition and how organized was it? >> that's opposition that was rooted in envisionist community and that's not to say that there were a number of people who just simply wanted to cut their losses. they didn't think this was a just policy necessarily but they felt that it's not protecting
them in any way and showing the man and their property and the one thing to do was to cut their losses and in fact they want to stay and the lamb. there were very practical reasons for them to stay and then and said we're going to do and on the missionaries who lived among them and church age groups and the north and this is the single most controversial group for the republic and up to
that date and propsed thousands and thousands with both men and women in this novel with this participants and the petition being fouled and it's a critical petition to congress. >> they were condemning the northern hypocrisy and it's in 1825 saying if you want to make indian citizens, negroes will be next and the expulsion of natives and expansion of slavery
werere really intertwined so how were protections for slavery exposed in the argument that southerners were making for indian removal? >> yeah, in so many ways as we talked about was if the native people were on this valuable cottonth produced in the land ad they're sort of through alabama, georgia and mississippi and runs right through the traditional homeland of the greek and choctaw nation. they had experience with moving people because they had been engaged in sort of transatlantic slave trade and engaged in the industry of trade.
going to need the jackson government to g forcibly remove thousands of native people. did anyone in jackson administration and this is a great island we have the southern politicians and down in georgia and championing stage right andhe the help of the federal government. they need federal lands and the federal government to pay for it and supervise this operation so the administration who are quickly with congressmen who in
second day of the 19th century and it's kind of emerging as the senator of american finance and he kind of got it on the ground floor and they became important financier on wall street and in 2018 in financing cultivation and turning the distance and see him emerging in 1830s. he recognized instantly there was going to be tremendous amount of land available and the lemon down and it was the deal
>> 53,000 people win government land foror access to government property and 4.2 million acres and majority of cherokee, choctaw and more didn't want to go. >> it made a difference in how the. story unfolded but the end result was the same. but generally speaking with them and the gang was to separate these people from their land as
speculators that will say we'll give you $10 if you go before this judge and say you indeed are suchd and such a person. even if you're not. sometimes claiming it was just a fire storm and speculators were based in georgia and based in columbus, georgia. >> the stories are just incredible that you tell in the book. surveyors dragging their chains right through somebody's fields, people buying land and building
right up -- plowing right up to the porch or doorstep of other people and some people leaving their homes and coming back and finding squatters in them and it was just a disgrace. this is a point of view toll time not pivotal time in the history of europe and young republic and administrative muscle and the point of your book showing how woefully incapable it was for that task. do you have some examples of how those limitations played out? >> so, it's a tremendous -- it doesn't -- about 80,000 people in the federal governmentmented to deport, which doesn't sound like a lot. the government make as lot of choices.
theygi were completely overwheld with the logistics and had never been dealing with those operations and they were not moving soldiers around, who are moverring in the direction you tell them to. there are families, infants, pregnant women, elderly folks, farm people, and so they're trying to mover them over a hundred, sometimes a thousand miles to the west over roads that don't exist. they have to build roads on occasion. they don't know where they're going. they don't have 21st century weather reports and they get caught in severe winter storms,
the steam boats are not where they're supposed to be, there are people there for weeks waiting for the river to thaw so they can continue their journey west ward. but that's just one of numerous examples of the issue with the federal government. >> a lot of confidence and it bring as lot of life to accounts but one of them is george gibbson and he's the head of the budget for the war department and the man known to calculate cost to a fractions and price instructions and getting the
it's correspondence before 1830 pending so many pounds of beef or pork here or there to feed the troops. he's an old franked of jackson, he's known him from before 1812 so interesting as soon as they asked council, jackson you would think the operation would be the responsibility off the superintendent but jackson takes the authority away from the superintendent and gives to the commissary general. he gets the invitation and obsessed with every dollar and every cent to the faction of a penny and he'd scour these accounts and it's obsessed with
>> it's harder to be asympathetic when you're suffering and some say it's preposterous to move a thousand people 800 miles when you've god children in some mile high any medicine or to not have a doctor. why would you not pay for a doctor and then respond and say i'm not authorized to pay for that. they were available to move folks it's much more valuable and making it the single most important thing.
>> people in a way were charged for the cost of their deportation. what are some of the things they were billed for? >> thehe removal and so they're receiving a bill and this goes on and on so goes after the fact and i'm still trying to rectify the account and they receive a bill a bit later and the people who move down the line and say this ishi not right. we had a fraction of people or we have to pay for the ration of so many of these scores of people but they died. they died soon after we set out
and you're still billing us for last year inti the indian territory. they are billed for the cost of postage. they were billed for the fee, for the hide and horse oaf an indiannd region. they're billed for pencils, they are billed for a new bookcase for the commissary general and they're every little item. they'd add it up and they'd send the bill to the operation. >> it is really incredible and leading to starvation, some even beingin hunted in the woods for
>> it really lace i think what the policy is all about and there's pretense in the first half of the decade in the early years of the policy that's humanitarian. we can become citizens of the state and the vast majority of them take that option and reasonable listen to this, great disappointment of planters and you want that land desperatety
become the war of extermination and license have correspondence say that the secretary of war wants to exterminate the seminal. there's environment where they're dying by the score from disease, but they're also chasingn down seminal families and there are these awful stories of parents of seminal family, husband and wife and their two children. i remember this one and they
families embraced and the most important thing when they put this in the spectrum and the native community. >> just want tofy clarify for pe who asked a question about rather thanra civilizing the savages wasn't the goal of the u.s. policy both before and after and being able to take indian lands. i beef we're answering that question but i didn't know if you had that to answer there. >> policy, you could step down and suggest there was a
revolution and the tyranny that existed in europe and really truly. >> to see and read some of the things that native americans argued for, you know, appealing to the constitution and liberty and the concept of equality in the book. but i want to move forward before we have to close and we find, you know, may of 1836 and
by the deadly weaponsive and how the u.s. government and 80,000 and by your calculation it's $75 million. that's about a trillion dollars today equal to $12.5 million per depor tee. can you account for some of those numbers. >> converting from then to the present and there's multiple ways of doing that and so, you know, that's the kind of decision you need to make and
until they got what they wanted. at the end of the day, they did did get exactly what they wanted and what they wanted was to expand across the south, to move the slaves from the chapel of virginia and south carolina west and african american families were broken up. hundreds of thousands and they had visions of them and they're
going -- >> claude -- caludio, thank you for -- claudio, thank you for your time. we recommend you purchase it from combined effect pee lines o atlantahistorycenter.com to see the schedule and i want to thank you all for being here. thank you for your time. >> the guest on c span with more than 70 appearances and here's a
in this country and in our public library system, there's nothing like it in the world. when you walk through the doors of a public library anywhere in the country, little town, big city, doesn't matter. when you walk through those doors, you're walking through the portals of freedom. curiosity, curiosity is one of the essential elements of being a human being. curiosity is what separates us from the cab damages and it's accelerative like cabbage and i encourage students to ask questions, not just to know the answers to every question, but to ask questions because by asking questions that you find things out. >> if i tell you that the king died and then the queen died, that's a sequence of events.
if i said the king died and queen died of grief, that's a story. i'm moved by the story and if i'm really moved by the story and excited about pursuing that subject, that story for three, four, five or more years. is this the book i have to write right now? i know it is and so far it's happened many times. >> this was a young man's revolution and a young man's cause. in washington being a member of congress was known by the other -- others in congress and they picked him because of the war being over and washington
>> they're there and if everything were easy they'd do nothing but sit around and not only not accomplish much of anything. i don't think we'd be very happy. people need help and all these advances that's happening and happening right now under our very noses will be written about for years and years and maybe the most important events of our time. it's exciting and it's all human ingenuity and human perseverance. admiral use of the mind, all of it.