tv Hearing on Chinese Threats U.S. National Security CSPAN March 10, 2023 2:51pm-4:40pm EST
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[inaudible conversations] >> the committee on homeland security subcommittee on law enforcement and intelligence will not come. to order. the purpose of this hearing is to see testimony from expert witnesses in the security realm to educate our efforts to mitigate threats posed by the chinese commonest party to the us homeland. i recognize myself for an opening statement. i would like to thank our witnesses for testifying today bringing your expertise to this committee and informing congress about the threats we are facing. despite years of attempts by
the united states to develop an honest relationship with people of china ameri has been met with dishonesty and aggression. the chinese communist party has been manipulated at every turn committing espionage in the homeland, the global, rules-based order. the us is in cooperation with the ccp with the chinese government seeking to place itself at the top of the global world order while degrading america's are military, diplomatically and economically. in recent months, events have shown the ccp escalated this competition. january 28th chinese surveillance balloon enter usair place and spent the nex 8 days traveling over the majority of the continental united states. while we did not know yet what kind of information the chinese surveillance balloon was able to collect, we can be certain the ccp's intention was to exploit sensitive sites including military sites and
infrastructure across the country. this chinese balloon was a brazen display of espionage in the us homeland, but ultimately one of the many ways the ccp is working to exploit our vulnerabilities. today we must take the conversation beyond that balloon and discuss all avenues the ccp is threatening homeland security. rough the ccp's aggressive national strategy of military civil fusion which aimto establish the people's liberation army of the dominant global military force by 2049 the chinese government is stealing information from us military and civilian hubs. the majority of the threats china poses to homeland security are occurring below the threshol we need to be cognizant of these threats and generate multaceted solutions. these threats are already directly affecting american citizens. the top hospital for cancer in my home state of texas, ousted several scientists from the
center in 2019 who had ties to the cc they were flagged by the national institute of health regarding a variety of threats including data security, elicit property loss, they were investigated by the fbi. this incident was not unique. the ccp consistently targeting americ research and innovation across the country. additionally the ccp is exploiting thepen nature of american academia to steal vital research and develop into. confucius institute marketed mechanisms to promote chinese language and culture used the ccp to rruit american talent to support military, monitor chinese nationalist studying american universities and face allegations of visa fraud. in recent years, the us government has worked to close most of these institutes but the ccp has made efforts to change the institute's names or obscure kate -- obscure kate --
i am reintroducing with chairman breen and brad would strip the restrictions on confucius stitutes and chinese entities of concern act. which passed out of this committee with bipartisan support last congress. this bill works to close confucius institutes and any programs with the same goal operating in the us. it holds american universities accountable and ensures they prioritize student edution and right to free speech of partnerships with confucius institutes that require universities to censor curriculums in favor of ccp ideology. appreciate the support of chairman green and look forward to a bipartisan discussion on this. in addition to threats to american ademic freedom the ccp is targeting critical infrastructure and uermining our economic security. elicit fentanyl, fennyl analogs and related person -- person -- preacher precursor chemicals are sourced from the prc and sent to mexico.
these fuel the tragic fentanyl crisisrom thhomeland. i'm eager tdiscusthese challenges and more during today's hearing. let me be clear about this hearing. anyone listening at home or abroad, this cflict and the discussion today has nothing to do with the chinese people living in china and being manipulated, this conflict is with the ccp. it is an authoritarian regime that commits genocide against its people, they censor free-speech not just in china but across the globe and the aim to end democracy as we know it. this hearing is the firstf many but the first step on this subcommittee and greater committee on homeland security which we intend to confront the threats stemming from ccp influence the target our homeland. we will meet it with streth, its deception with unflinching truths and attempts at exploitation with stice. we look forward to bipartisan
operation as we seek effective solutions to combat threatposed by the ccp to homeland security. i now recognize the ranking member, my friend from rhode island, mr. maziner. >> i thinkhe chairman for calling this hearing and thank the witnesses for coming today. i want tohank doctor tyler om rhode island for joining us along with otheexpert witnesses. it's an honor to serve as ranking commit or that as ranking member of the subcommiee and i look forward to working with all mbers of the submmittee on a bipartisan basis to protect americans from those who seek to teaten the security of the homeland. make no mistake. china is the competitor th the greatest combination of intent and capity to threaten us global leadership. president xi himself stated by 2049e wants to ensure china
and the ccp lead the world in terms of composite national strength and international influence. this is concerning for all of us who bieve deeply that democracy and human rights must be advanced and protected in r own country and across the world. just last year, fbi director christopher ray -- chriopher wray warned the greatest long-term threat to our nation's information and intellectual propey and economic vitality is the counterintelligence and economic espionage threat from china. congress secretary gina raimondo warned the chinese s theiefforts for economicnd technology policies with military ambitions iways that are forcing us, compelling us to defend unid states businesses and workers. ..
we must recognize the thrt posed by the ccp and take immediate action to confront china's attempts t undermine national security. today's hearing is important for membs of the subcommittee to demonstrate we are uted in a bipartisan effort to defend privacy and safety of the american peopl and protect u. industries a supply chains and enhance national secity all while remembering when the most important ways to counter chinese communist party's ambitions to build an economy here at he that works for working people and show the world our american system of decracy and freedom is more effective in lifting people up in t ccp model of autocracy
and repression. democrs are committed to doing this work in collaboration. last year to the leadership of president biden congress passed bipartisanship act to invest 280 billing dollars and destic semiconductor to enhance national security and great jobs, reduc inflation and improve competitiveness with china. cia launched a dedicated mission center and state department launched a new office of cna coordination to strengthen the rest of the medic military intelligence capability meeting the teats. it is my hope today's hearing will further illuminate strategies to undermi democracy and econo and way of life and congress can wk together to meet the challenges. as we do thisogether we must remember people of china and
people of chinese origin experience oppression and han rights violation of the hands of the authoritarian chinese communist party and anti- discrimination is pretty prevalent here at home soant to be clear we do not condone any anti- chinese or asian bigotry and must condemn any acts of anti- asian discrimination the strongest possible terms. our struggl is not with the chine people but rather the chinese communist party that is increasingly possible to democracy and human rights. thecp wants nothing more to see americans become divided and prejudiced but they will be disappoied. week will outcompete by ensuring america remains beacon of freedom to the world and continuing to provide safe harbor tohis violence and that's how we strengthen our nationnd economy. i look forward to hearing from today's witnesses and i go back.
>> oping stement may b suittedor the record. i'm pleasedo hav a stinguhed panel of witnesses before this important topic witnesses please rise and raise youright hand you solemnly swear the testimony will get before the home is security in the united states house of representives worked with the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth will help you god? thank you. but the record reflect they've answered in the affirmative. like to introduce our witnesses. william dedicated his life for years to service. the senate confirmed him ashe first director of national intelligence community center. the head of counterintelligce entirety of u.s. government. back on counterintelligence works well today for specific
discussions to focus heavily on the ways of ccp espioge efforts and how they impact home and including u.s. ip and exploitation of research and much more. a friend of mine and former life as a fighter pilot and a senior fellow at the mitchell institute prayer based studies. deputy chief of staff of operations at u.s. air force headquarters it was his job to oversee capabilities including homeland defense mission of north american aerospace. impressive background lieutenant will be able to be to america's evolving homeland security needs as it faces a challenge every scene before the ccp and given recent shocking events which i think were a wake-up call for the surveillance balloon, we are grateful for your service and
being here today. the strategic international studies or csis where she is the director of aerospace security product. she served as deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and security. strong background in homeland security defense policies will be an exceptional addition as we discussed growing changing landsce including threats of american infrastructure as it pertains to the u.s. competition with china. i'd like to recognize ranking member judgment from rhode island for a brief introduction of the next witness. >> i'm pleased to welcome our fourth witness doctor tyler. assistant prossor of political science and international public affairs at brown university in the great state of rhode island. he's the institute assistant professor of studies and devotes time and effor to improving understanding of national security decision-making in the
people's republic of china. previously served as the military intligence officer assignments in afghanistan u.s. cyber command in the office of the secretary defense. ank you to all of our tnesses for being here today and i yield back. >> thank you very mh and thank you to the witnesses for taking time here. i recognize william for an opening statement, we have a timer and we will keep it to five minutes. >> mbers of the subcommittee, it's an honor to be he today to discuss this important topic. i spent 3 years of my career working f u.s. government and the fbi cia is the chairman referenced ashe national counterintelligence committee center. i'm here before you today a ceo of the ebenezer group to provide services to boards of directors, ceos, executives and this act we
discussed today. today's topic, china is an existential threato a complex pernicious, aggressivetrategic threat our nationas ever faced. the subcommittee as u.s. private sector and academia for geopolitical battle space china. xi jinping is one goal -- to be the geopolitical militar economic leader of the world. along with state security, people of liberation arm united front work department, comprehensive school country approach in their efforts to vest, leverage, infiltrate, influence from every corner of the united states. a generational battle for xi jinping and drives every decision. we must approach the threat from the communist party of china with the same sense of urgency and strategy with doneor the
st two decades. i offer the subcommittee we are a terrorism event, slow methodical persistent and enduring event which requires response and urgency of action. more specific, communist party of china intent are second to none. cyber breaches and cyber threats, surveillance and penetrion into the critical infrastructure with 85% owned by the private sector. it's open repted, there's much more in the classified from and we become numb to it. additionally it's estimated 80% of american adults have had all of the private data. the other 20%, just most of it. in the communist party of china gripping during a hold on the aspects of the supply chain and results the daunting own ability
and susceptility of unacceptable proportions. the current landscape, surveillance balloons and maritime surveillance and military bases in 5g threats, u.s. space, chinese police stations, while way and tik tok, it pains bleak say it. on the cybersecurity about the process of unending resources to penetrate systems and expo treat our data. in dormant a malware for critical infrastructure and hostility and at the same time e threat epidemic in the china has been nothing shortf devastating in the corporate world. the communist party of china conducts the influence the state and local level with presion. this effort must be exposed and mitigated so why does it matter
economic security is national security. economic global supremacy and vitality is at sk squarely is xi jinping and comnist regime and 2020 estimated theft of intellectual property just from the communist party of china just from what we know in prosecutn between 300 billion $500 billion a year and it's 4000 to $6000 a year for an american family of four and the cost is real. how do we mitigate the threats? must create robust private partnership with real intelligence sharing at the same time staying te to core values and rule of law which made amica the greatest country the world has ever seen. this will take a whole nation approach, will take time, such approach must start with
awareness campaigns with a broad audience from every level of government, to university campuses in the boardooms to business schools because it matters. the boards of directors must look beyond the next earnings and think strategically on the long-term threat and not only their busess model but economic natural interest in the united states and inonclusion, i investigated after september 11 for the fbi and i wld suggest it's much more dangerous and longevity in the nation than y terrorist threat aor. thank you and i look forwa to the questions. >> i n recognize general for opening statement. >> ranking member and members of e committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. as an individual, spent three
decades in service to our nation. i am deeply concerned about the threat the chinese communist party drives toward u.s. home and especially the military life and that's why events lehis today are so important. my lt assignment in active duty, as deputy chief of staff for the united states air force. our job was to organize, train and equip forces, air forces and present those forces for combatant commanders around the world, that includes norad north come from a command in charge of homeland defense i also developed a good understanding of the threats to the chinese poses to the united states and capabilities they used to achieve those objectives. i wou like to highlight or describe the threat china poses to the united states and allies, 1991 with the u.s. was celebrating thend of the cold war and were celebrating victory in operation desert storm, china
wento school, they took note and started a concerted deliberate effort to modernize their litary capabilities. here we are threeecades later and they have largely meant that mark and even seek further progress and that'shy this year they saw significant increase in their defen spding their military enjoys leading-edge capabilities that include long-range precision strike, hypersonic weapons, advanced integrated air defense weapons, stealthy aircraft, surface to air missiles and electronic warfare. in sever of the systems have the range to hold u.s. homeland at risk so the chinese spy balloon as mentioned before which garnered significant attention this past february is a loud wake-up call regarding ccp global admission. unfortunately the u.s. testing whent comes to the capability
and capacity required to defend our home and in the air domain. it's originally designed for north america catastrophic attack and i didn't know after an 11 to intercept, identify and redirect the aircraft approaching restricted areas the norad radars were optimized in tune to detect aircraft for the criteria. the balloons until recently generally did not fit in tt category. as threats evolved including balloons and stuff aircraft, you a s is a systemruise missiles, most our detection a defense enterprise. this requires modernizing radars and install new sensors in emerging zones of own ability not just over the nation but well outside sovereign territories to get a heads up theyre coming we must invest resources in the mission and
that command gets its aircraft from the u.s. air force. the air force today is the oldest and smallest ever in history. we are still flying 52's that are 60 years old. fighters over 30 years old, even if 22, the best air to air fighter ever made. the homeland defense doesn't start here in the homeland. homeland defense starts abroad with combat and commander, combat and commander that has the forces capable of an offense of punch against adversary countries that deters them attacking us. that's where it begins. air force has to be modernizing the numbers necessary to meet the demands of the national defense strategy as well as deter threats against our home and. more specifically consider air forc fighter too small to meet real world demand, a major securityoncern and while other services possess fighters, the air force specifically homeland
security, the commission. international guard is the entity within the air force that bears a preponderance of homeland defense. their mission is particularly hard-hit by the gap between old aircraft eating out of the ventory and lack of aircraft arriving to fill the spots. homeland defense requires investment and modernization and control, resiliency, round and space tastes spenders and air and fuel capability. we need to start treating it this way. one more story to share with the group, january 8, 2020, 11 iranian ballistic msiles hit the u.s. base and al-assad iraq. i was the coalition forces air component commander at the time and possess the intelligence about the attack, we are able to get the missiles i wanted track
the trajectory but when it came shooting them down and defeating the missiles, we lacked any options because we didot have the capacity due tother global commitments. american service membersad to write out the attack for the best. an appalling set of circumstances. let's think what could happen against our homeland with threats like that. adversaries like china understand these. united states is gradually waking up to this reality but leaders have yet to seriously address the shortfall. we are in a probl admiring face not a solution and limitation phase that the change. we have the bravest men and women in uniform but owe it to them to ensure they are prepared for the mission we asked them to execute we owe it to american citizens to ensure they are protected from attacks. america's common is no longer a sanctuary against threats like china. we must recognize the new
reality and aggressively close critical gaps capacity and capability in the air domain. thank you for allowing us to focus on theopic today and look forward to your questions. >> thank you for your opening statemts and recognizehing on. >> thank you dtinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for letting me appear before you today. i've been fortunate to examine these issues from a start, time of theeferment of the fencend legislative on the arms services committee conflict with china is not inevitable. the chinese communist party ambition to become the world leading power and undertaken a broad campaign using all tools of national power and influence to achieve this. strategic competiti and military concept of china may seem abstract to many americans, tiny surillance balloonas a tangible visible signhe u.s. homend is not out of reach o
beijing threats. thehallen is one of the national economic security, it's not only theilitary threat for the united states the top threat the u.s. technology competitiveness. i'll discuss three areas where the ccp threat t the u.s. homeland is particularl acute. tenology acquisition, critical infrastructure and iludes operation and i'll offer a few areas to address this. beijing has made it a national goal to acquire foreign technologies to aance our economy moderni military and continues to use legal and illegal methods to target u.s. technology including areas such as high-performance computing, pharmaceuticals, energy and aerospace and it targets people, information, businesses and research institutions in the unit states. these methods include economic esonage, joint ventures, research partnership and
recruitment programs among others. i written testimony offers several specific examples for the ccp has put the methods into practice. this matters for our defense military battlefield advantage as long rested on our superior technology. that is at risk as beijing seeks to close the gap in our technology this matters for american business to 25 to $600 billion annual estimated cost in the economy has stolen intellectual property. martin policy for the bolsters he's methods and 2017 national intelligence law requires organization and citizens to support intelligence work. e ccp target critical info structure in t united states. iully anticipate beijing disrupted. possiblyyber attacks but especially early in the conflict, motivated by a desire
to deter u.s. action and effect list decision-making and immobilization of u.s. forces and t effective will of the american people. th government has taken steps to share informaon on the campaignsnd target critical infrastructure such as oil and gas pipelines and it also inude sharing tactics and techniques and proceres. third, u.s. homeland is within reach of the influence. examples include tik tok u.s. intelligen officials cautioned can be influenced by ccp driven manilation include operation by ccp directed individuals on us-based pro-democracy advocates,ntimidate chinese and chise-american students at universities and pressure individuals in the united states to return to china including writing families. prc exerts influence through road initiatives exporting terrestrial info structure information and communication technology and other technology
areas. this global influence directly impact businesses in the u.s. security interests here at home. one area of competition in commercial tillich medication including satellite medication and broadband medication like spacex star link. for the expansion of chinese tillich medication services would boost beijing's presence in foreign terrestal netrk inviting the ccp remote access and enabling it t surveilled users and block internet access and informion. i offer a few recommeations to help address these challenges expanding education and awareness and ts hearing is important in that regard and remind the america public of the threat posed by the ccp is not extract in conflict could take place across the pacific. the american public and businesses need to understand curity and economic risks posed by the ccp and understand they are a targe expand intelligence sharing with
the private sector, building off work today so companies can better understand vulnerability and make informed decisio regarding protection and resilience. transform counterintelligence and security mission including averaging technology artificial intelligence to identify supply chain vulnerabilities in foreign agents and eliminate disinformation. leverage technology innovation maintaining u.s. technology leadership means not just preventing the transfer of technology but setting the conditions for innovation sector to stay ahead of the competition. boosting cooperation with allies and partners, a competitive advantage and source of strength, the ccp does not technology cooperation can be a strong feature of these relationships. continuing to invest in a strong defense including homeland defense which is required to deter aggression and build siliency to attack and ensure we have the people and posture
and intelligence and weapons systems and defend the united states. thank you for your time today. >> thank you. the chair recognizes doctor joseph for opening statement. >> chairman, ranking member established him as of t subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. it is an honor to be with you i testimony is given as a scholar of chinese foreign policy and i emphasize this for two reasons. my role in academia is one of the researchers, not administer. my testimony is not on behalf of more directly or indirectly associated with my employer and the second is a former intelligence officer in some of the most detailed reporting on the topics of homeland security remains classified. the best position to offer pertaining to this conclusion can be drawn based on publicly available research and remarks
will focus on two areas, the broader strategic context through which china oversees intelligence collection and information campaigns to be viewed. with the publicly available research can tell us about the scope and effectiveness of those campaigns. between the united states and china, a defining international challenge of the century and at the center of this problem first twossues most divide washington and beijing and taiwan and perceptions of the other side poses an existential threat to the ability of domestic regime. while it is important, the serious threats to the home and posed by china, should not distract from the issues likely to define the future of the global competition at the. thes activities emerge from this contemporary strategic concept and divided into two categories. the first focuses on china's
intelligence clection which is well documented in the reason in which a chinese high-altitude lloon for american airspace, china is willing to assume risk together data against american targets. in parallel,hina engages in operation to disseminate information to foreign audiences. the bulkf the activities are aimed at shaping global public inion and in simplest terms, china presents citizens with information withouthat it will shape t target and perhaps behavior. these efforts to shape born public opinion through party propaganda are rl and it is brought. there are a few studies that apply validated research mhod for estimated effects and exposure to such messages on foreign audiences. the global public opinion should provide some comfort. if one judges the effectiveness
of china's public campaign, they solely on china's approval rating, the effort has at least today, a failure. finally, what evidence we do have suggests several reaso why the operations might prove to beess effective. by ehasizing gaps in public knowledge i'm not sugsting we dismiss potential threats cna poses to the u.s. homeland, the fact that china demonstrated intent t engage in intelligence corruption and efforts to shape public opinions, cpled with competitive nature of the bilateral relationship probably calls for serio attention. rather, my hope is emphasizing what weo or do not know is eliminatingolicy recommendations detailed in my written testimony. alali briefly summarize. u.s. government should devote resources for publicly available research build gaps in knowledge regarding this abroad. second, u.s. government should
use diplomat channels to reestablish opportunity for american researchers to bette understand the political system and in ways they feel protected from potential explication and detainment of the chinese authoritie third, u.s. goverent sheets to better disclose and understand e threats china poses to homeland secury, specifically is to provide citizens with more data about the different risks american citizens assume when they use forgn technology. thank you for your time and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you. members wille recognized in order of seniority from republican and democrat for five minutes of queioning. my hope today we will be able to go through maybe two round of estioning. the chair recognizes myself for five minutes of questioning. i think what we heard there is an incdible breadth of knowledge and expience about what the chinese communist party has been doing f several
decades, what they are currently doing wh threats as the wake-up call moment happened several wee ago the chinese surveillance balloon, it's incumbent upon us to really start uncovering these threats and focusing on this and from what we've heard from the panel, thank you for you opening statements we could have several hearings on the individual objects that appreciate the time here. i'll start with mr. of anita, when you look at the ownership of pperty in the united states and going back to u.s. farmland in the last 20 years jumped from about $81 million in 2010 to 1.9 billion at the end of 2021 and moreover, widely reported a lot of the prc linked ownership
is adjacent to government facilities, military facilities in the united states. can you provide insight to why that is, what the goal is and what they are doing with those? >> thank you for the question. i will try hard to stay in the room here but it's a mprehensive plan that goes back about a decade, the intentions that incorporate multifaceted intelligence apparas and a starts with what i call outside the fen line of dod facilities that began with huawei, cell power abilities, tracking and monitoring lipid silos and other areas, strategic purposes of business outside of not only military bases military residential areas. the influence of the chinese to do software and malware
penetration on electrical grid power stations outside of the military base. the next aspect is what you reference, whas the next thi russia is looking to exploit outse the fence line u.s. military base? that includes land, we look at the land not only chinese communist party has purchased, you will find strategic mility base and/or some things in the ound as well as energy issues to the military base a we look at a balloon we saw similar trajectories to those areas so a company has of strategic plan. >> do you think there was coordination between the land the balloon flew over purchases we've seen, could there b coordinaon now or in the future? >> absolutely.
if there's not truth procedure ordination, i think we will see in the future if it is declassified, the balloon was surveilling or potentially more surveillance, to. >> thank you for the testimony and threats you mentioned you are worried and concerned about, what keeps you up at night on air power threats and what needs to happen resource wise and specifically here to identify chair detect? >> thank you, chairman is what keeps m up at night, the age and capabilities of air and space force. for 20 years we've been engaged in a land center campaign in the midd east, counterinsurgency and violent extremists and all portant for our nation but during the 20 years, we did not invest inir and space fces in which we needed so we were
left wit what i dcribed before. a 30-year-old but it c defined, providing most air support in iraq or afghanistan against low and threats but not going to svive well in chi bites but more so it doesn't deter china so we have to realize investment needed in the ai and space domain neglected and we have to get after for the exact reasons described by expert panelists on china and that's what keeps me up at ght. >> when look at the threats posed, hypersonic, ranges increasing and ability to reach out, how important is norad, joint airpower enterprise and homeland? >> national defense strategy, to enroll have said all men defense is the number one priority. the problem is we haven't resource to the extent.
the commanders asked for modernization of radars for years and have not gotten it and that would help us with the balloon sooner. almost every major metropotan city in america defended by fighters getting older and older th don't have the capability and radar they need not only for the balloons but for the real threat which would be cruise missile attack so that's what concerns me. >> thank you, my time i expired. i recognize ranking member. >> thank you, chairma it is clear the chine communist party is taking a whole of government approach advancing his ambition of the exnt of u.s. and democrat conventionso we much take a whole of governmentpproach so that covers homeland security defense and state department and
etc. i want to focus on homeland from. can y expand on the methods ccp is using to influence public opinion both your home and u. and globay and what more we could be doing t measure efforts and mitigate their success? >> sure, think of theuestion. the folks to date of china's inuence operation both in the united states and abroad are focused on whatou might say are winning friends. this is coming directly from xi jinping was directed the parties after, deep roots a pr propaganda. the leverage the capabilities in order to hold it welcome to the world, it is interesting to think about the ways in which china's institution domestically are naturally positioned to make
the transition from a domestic -based propagand machine to international one. if one things from the perspective ofhe chinese communist party from their perspective, domestic propaganda has worked in the store keeping it in power and the capabilities and organizations exist and easy to see how they would assume the same propaganda would work in foreign audiences. to date the site emphasize in my written testimony, we don't necessarily have the best evidence judge whether or not efforts outside chinese orders have been effective as i mentioned in the opening statement, we do know global public opinion toward china particularly in the united states and the countries with whom we share close interest
declined essentially in the past two years which would suggest from a certain perspective the propaganda doesn't necessaly work as well as hoped. that said, there's a multitude of thing in that relationship of course like the fact that there's a global pandemic, it could be in areas but not others. certain trainings the chinese coveto party and give about use more effectively than others and one reason the needs to be more research on this in the u.s. government to help with. >> in your written testimony on the threat of corpora espionage and intellectual property, you recommended the creation of economic threat intelligence agency to asst u.s. companies in protectin themselves against espionage, stand on how that should be structured to be most effective.
>> thank you, ranking member. i recommend an entity similar to the fsi specifically geared toward economic awaress and understanding secret the and immersion of not only the thought process but also the loss that govern our processes and near the communist party is doing and educate american businesses and general counsel, people do outside counsel to understand what it looks like when you are about to be stolen and provide real-time inlligence from the intelligence community, the hs treasury to businesses not only at risk in the process because once it happens, it's too late, it's gone. theovernment needs to be forward leaning. >> i found that interesting s perhaps the follow-up after the hearing you can send recommendations in detail about
wheret should be housed in which agency should be involved, it's interesting recommendation and i yield back. >> the judgment yields. the chair recognizeshe gentleman from new york. >> thank you all, thousands of demonstrators protest outside the building in new york city's chinatn last month. the building owned by the jangly association orates with a call service stati and accused of operating ccp policetation that allegedly conducts surveiance and intimidates activists. like recentncident with chinese surveillance, this ation to be the latest action and violates.s. sovereignty and poses a threat to national security it's been reported there's over 100 of these offices around the
world. plea describe your concerns surrounding this potential will be station in terms of counterintelligence, threats and safety of americans. >> thank you. when you look at that issue in your city and subsequent search, a high threshold to contain, the medicalization of this plan to not only influence and manipulate their own here in the united states to provide intimidation factors and i would say this issue in the search of the police station is in partnership with the operation that my colleagues talk about which is internaonal program but very aggressive in the unit states to surveilled it renditn chinese here who are anti- xi jinping and are very successful in the fact that this
happens on american soil is unacceptable. >> agree. as reported over 100 throughout the world. do we know howany are on u.s. soil? >> i do not but i'm pretty confident law enforcement state and local and federal level are pretty aware of that. >> thank you and i yield back. >> judgment yields and now recognize the gentleman from california. >> thank you very much. i've been sitting in the committee f a number of years. however, a big issue and continues to be a big issue. number of testimonies that, we heard russians essentially penetrat most of the infrastructure just like we have penetrated most of their infrastructure, we have a standoff so to speak. action on either side is too expensive in terms of damage. now we have a situation
internationally, geopolitical realignment where russia and china are getting to work much more collaboratively. my question first of all, how do you see this given foreign minister china's foreign minister recently said conflict and competiti, how do you see this evolution in terms of multiplier effect, russia and china working together, how real is not andhat is the potential for the future continued collaboration to challenge the united states in ways we have not envisioned in the past? >> i concur with the statement, i think it is concerning when to states like each oer are
merging in the unitedtates. geopolitically -- >> dressing is an enemy -- is that the situation? >> correct and when you look at -- i'll stick in my claim, he mentioned russian penetrati to our systems, i think in ot in here in the united states, predates the communist party in china and am confident they've duplicated the penetrations or along those. i think the sharing of intelligence services between vladimir putin and russia is probably the most problematic for me because that's the most invisible part of the. >> i think right n we still have an edge when it comes to cyber, two or three years maybe. i often think defense from a
good offense is the best defense you can have so what would you recommend moving forward would be the best way to counter these unprecedented challenges our country has? i think you're making good points and important to reiterate the fact that as much as your hearing, depressing and a legitimate threat to our nation and we must pause and remember we have the most amazing military intelligence cability the world has ever seen. men and women are phenomenal in capabilities second to nonen cyber and intelligence so americans should go to sleep at night and be thankful that offensively never seen anything better tha we can do. unfortunately. >> today. please continue, didn't mean to interrupt. anybody elseave thoughts?
>> if might build off of that on cyber, look at this moment, so muc of our activity is around commercial infrastructure and it is important the government figure out how to share intelligence information with the private sector with oil and gas pipelines, energy, financial service sectors. >> in real time. >> and that is the key. if you are a business, you hear this talk but what is valuable is figuring out a way to provide these business leaders bring them in but also share specific procedures andt's one thing to hear about this general threat, it's another to hear tactics they used to go after you and you realize that what's happening in my network, let me work with you to take those measures. >> thirty seconds, anybody else?
the chair i yield. thank you very much. >> please. >> i would show your question to the successf intelligence defense deparent has had with ukrae preventing russian cyber kimberly not only ukraine but here inhe u.s., a category for being ahead of others in the cyberspace. >> thank you for ending on a good positive note. i yield. >> the chair now recognizes the gentleman from arizona, former navy seal. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate it. thank you for attending today, we appreciate it. it's not often here me and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle can agree upon the so is great to be in agreement on the threat china obviously the american people are watching. they areoncerned when they see y balloons over the united
states, armand botta here farms, fentanyl, and across the southern border. we know the origin of a lot of that and theft of intellectual property, covering the origi of covid. chinese police statis and some of our cities, my first queion is f you, mr. of the nina, d i pronounce it correctly? you know what a leak captures? >> yes or. >> for the pan, and maybe for those watching, can you describe what a leak capture is? >> out probabl referd to one of the experts on the panel for that. >> anybody want to take a stab at it? sir, am i correct that you are
an expert in counterintelligence? >> yes. >> can you give me a brought -- does it have to be super specific, what is a leak capture? >> when you look a capabilities adversaries, the ability to correct and make an affirmative effort to capture the communications and technology in the gray space and provides the best avenueor potential to win. >> okay. can you give me some examples of how that is often done? >> first i would say a lot was the fbi overseas, abilities to capture medications and conversations for foreign adversaries and it gives us
intentions on counterintelligence and espionage in the actors overseas writing on commercial capabilities around the world and it allows them to pre-identify print warning to actors in the u.s. both data and. >> would you say it is accurate that foreign states and actors try to compromise and corrupt leaders and officials within our own government, would you say that is a form of a leak captur >> i would and is done regularly for decades. >> would you say often it is true that filyembers are often used in these efforts to corrupt foreign leaders and officials?
>> the past decade i spent my time in organizations advising americans and members of congress restrict to them that startsith family members. >> are you aware of reported buness biden and hundred for the chinese, oy what i have seen the report on a short line and sinker worn and utilized americans and family members is tried-and-true and unpredictable and report. >>let me ask you a follow-up, did you fd reports whether you believe them or not, did you find repts concerning?
with all your knowledge and the space and how you have seen this play out? >> yes, we look at what is reported publicly about potential tactics and techniques displayed with the potential for penetration in the united states, something most services tried to do regularly. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. we will proceed to a second round of questions and if we have other members previous commitments that show up then we will yie the itial question the chair recognizes myselfor an additional amount of five minutes of questions. thank you for your expertise and testimony tay. i would like to focus on the critical infrastructure piece. what you said targeting critical
infra structure and you ticipate the crisis, hopefully one does not happen but should one unfold, beijing would seek to disrupt operations of critical infrastructure and i was intrigued by your discussion on sharing information with local state partners, law enforcement and otherwise. from the colonial inciden until now, have we as a federal government specifically in the department of homeland security, can you give your opinion how we share information, if it is effective in critical infrastructure partner partners, most is owned by private industry, are ty ready for what is next should that happen again? >> thank you for that question and i think it is not a charitable china as said
highlights the catastrophic impact that can occur as a sult of a potential attack against cyber critical infrastructure. what you're saying is right from the thing i've seen previously i would anticipate as a crisis or conflict that the ccp would seek to target critical infrastructure only on a first move in terms of what they would seek to u to delay or deter or delay us. for information sharing, i think the success i would show this summer of 2021, they did a good job bringing in oil and gas operators and provide specific detail on the chinese or tcp
cyber intsion campaign, what specifically they were targeting but equally important how they were doing itith these techniques and procedures. that is one sector and are several sectors and i think there is good information the community had that they could provide for the defendants services, electrical gd or etc. >> thank you. what is the impact of the transit of a surveillance balloon? e fac that it transited in th event the ocean and shut down, what message does it send and what is the impact strategically? >> or significant wake-up call. according the opportunity that much information, balloon is around 12iles up, satellites
are 350 miles so close and out for a long time, potential collection is significant so he would have been taken down prior to getting u.s. airspace. and it don't think it will happen we don't know until we fully exploit what they could have gotten and what they got but to me, it is a violation of sovereignty. >> what we have to do to get that back if it does? >> anytime a regime does something of that nature do anything about it, what can i get away with next? we have to close the gap and demonstrate critical his ability are cosing, is important not only with the capability but the
will to do so, that's how you deal with that. >> let's turn to the precursors china produs used in the production of plentiful and connection betweenhe cartel taking the products and making fentanyl andventually getting into the united states. talk to your opinion as forme intelligence expert on that flow and what the ccp and cartels are doing to work together and produce a deadly substance. >> a very important conference, recent reporting is hundred thousand people have died in the last year fm fentanyl ov overdose. multiple times what happened on 9/11 our nation does not look at fentanyl as a national epidemic
that aer is probably unacceptable and we have to be more vigilant. we cannot the proction of precursors from china to mexico and the american soil, it's clear and intelligence and military apparat are working hard to disrupt that it's more than that to disrupt, has to be granted efforts and put china on notice ts process of turning americans were stopped. >> my time has expired in my chair yields back and recognizes ranking member. >> in your testimony, he wrote that while the evidence shows the efforts in unite states and other allied countries don't have much evidence yet we don't have as much data in the mobile self and emerging markets. we know china is making in many of these emerging countries for
strategic reasons, it is important for our work in congress because there's the level of forei aid we provide expanded bit and why this is important and what the tie is to the home and security of the united states? >> thank you, sir. when one thinks about how beginner works, we have to think why target audience whatever believe it. if i were to come in and read a bit of chinese propaganda, who would not but if i were folks in the room with discount that information significantly and the reason is they know it is propaganda so the effectiveness of such information or influence campaign us upon the ability of targets to be able to understand that the political scientists,
the after giving the information doesn't have their best interests at heart so let's component number one and component number two is a baseline level of distrust of that space. what we don'tnow is in countries outside of the united states and countries the united states shares this relationship with his the baseline level of mistrust present in most of u.s. public, president and other countries would cost the target in the countries to discount this propaganda. >> thank you and especially when we look at things like access to minerals that are critical for our economy and other factors, those relationships will flow without china understands that and we must understand as well. ...
>> forxample there's animal yule report that the chinese ate -- annual report that the chinese issues on human rights in the united states and calls out these types of events broadly and specifically on anti-asian racial issues. >> i would double down and amplify the doctor's statement and it's clearly not about the chinese citizens. this is an issue with xi and the chinese strategy. not only to doctor's point, i think we have to be very, very clear to say this all the time. this is not about chinese citizens, but most importantly
the united front work department will use that against us in every single point. it's a double edged sword and the more we don't say it the more the congress regime and united front work department won't say it and omission is denial that it's real. >> i'll close by saying in is yet another reason why it's importan that this committee and congress focus on combating the rise of racially-motivated extremism in the hope land as well and i thank you all for your testimony. >> now recognize m diesposito. >> thank you, chairman. you estimated that the theft of intellectual property cost the american people as much as $500 billion, with a b, per year. can you describe the threat on people in my district and on long island. >> congressman, i think as i
mention my oral remarks it's 4,000 to 6,000 per amerin family after taxes and it's a real cost to american homeowner fami member. >> can you just say that number again. >>etween $4,000 and $6,000 per year per americanamily of four after taxes is what that $500 billion of intellectual property theft equals. those are known cases. that's not a guesstimate. those aren't the real cost. the real cost for the ip theft, manufacturing theft results i the communist party of china bilged the same capability overseas, getting it to patent in global markets before we do and selling back to the american people and american public and corporations and multiple ceos zit set to be built and not just the dollar value of the product but the manufacturing plants that aren't built in the u.s and tensf thousands ofobs
not created here in the u.s. because we lost that patent for the communist party o china that went to global market first. >> what are ways that the u.s. government is working to identify counter intelligence issues that threaten american ip? >>here was a robust agenda in 2015 and 16 and i'd have to command the efforts of senator burr, rubio and warner on the chinese road shows and we went out and briefed thousands of ceos of indtries about this threats in different services to make sure they understood what they were doing an direct impact on national security and national impact. members of congress in the house and sut should have a robust capability going back to the home district and document these
threatsor congress and where you live. the economic development corporion and the affairs capability early andften to prevent it befor it happens. >> bidding on the bkyard south of the border and a chance to get there two years ago and china is looking to have the world's largest oil reserves now in venezuela. they're essentially in a government of venezuela andas close ties to russia and to china.
this is our backyard. it's my understanding that we have a good brand south of the border and those countries, columbia included still like t brand of america, the american dream so-to-speak. whether we keep our backyard our backyard secur and have these kinds of advances for the countries. >> congressman, there's great panels in the answers as well and we look specifically and look at aforementioned and the counter terrorism and missed the boat of influence and russia and ina on south america and that influence comes to the crux because they provide mobile
phones to the citizens of the south american countries for free and chinese invest a lot of money in south mesh to have them beholden to their interest and russia did historically. i think we probably and this is getting more in the policy lane have to be more aggressive and offensive with our brand and our capability withhe investment in south americand help us in the long run. >> we make the best medicines in the wld. best covid vaccine, we're essentially bread basket of the world and i hope youan use those assets to really project
>> not just buyinghat's there and detriment and u.s. defense doesn't start homelands but overseas and we need capability with allies and partners and if weecome isolationists and we see that terrain, to the chinese we'll pay a price militarily and it's a very significant thing for us and it's a lot. homeales and we have issues with the country and that's the sample and sometimes they're going buy it anyway.
>> sometimes it's the challenge. >> general, did you use the word absent or absence? did you say that? >> i may have. absence or less than -- >> are you saying we're not doingur job up here going overseas, visiting people, being diplomats as members of congress? do we nd to do more of that? >> sir, i think you're doing a great job. >> that's not the answer i'm looking for, s. you just said something and i want to make sure all ofur members of congress understand -- that's a great point and i want you to back it beuse we do need to show our faces around the world. we need to do that. general, i want to thankou for that comnt. >>ou're absolutely right and we need to showur faces around th world and our military does a lot of intnational engagent mill to mill and we need that engagement at oth levels of government and our state does that but getti out and seeing and understanding from the allied andartner
perspectives, the one big advantage the u.s. has militarily is that w have a lot of friends out there. china doesn't he that and we're going to lose those friendsnd >> it happens if we engage them. >> thank you, impactful yield. >> yielding to my >> that you think, chairman. one of the surprising things is that i was aware that no members of congress visit that had area in three years. to the pnt, yes, there's a military aspect and also a
diplomatic we'd like to seehe state department do more but up here in congre in a bipartisan manner, we need to do more in our own backyardnd many of us on this committee are cmitted to doing just tha my first question is for you, general, i just got back from taiwan and second time in four months and i spent 20 years in the milary. i know what war looks like. we're at war i mean, i spend five years as an air crewman flying against china and i know when they come out and intercept o aircrafts and they're doing tt every single day and there's a danger in that becauseverything is fine until
there's an accident. can you speak to this game of economicken of china and taiwan? >> absolutely. china is forcing penetration in the air and taiwan sovereignty and when they're in the air and professionalism is nonexistent. they will "dust us off if you will". one cas there was a midair collision from one of the aircraft and a navy p3. what we can't do is watch them and get away with behavior like that and not do something back. not be there with taiwan and be present.
in cyber space, there's no boundaries or borders and we're all in this together and we're not alone and we need allies and put together a bill that u.s. and taiwan advance row search enacted and create as closer relationship in the cyber space with our allies. can youust speak to that as far as how can we -- how account united states grow our relationship with others and we have our bye byes and those relationships that have had for a long time and other places like taiwan. what are your thoughts onaiwan d cyber space.
>> thank you, very much for visiting and i had the chance to go in january as well. on taiwan, if i can say the arming is incredibly important, giving them a greater defensive capable andt includes not just tangibleeapon systems but the training that goes along with it and i think the was more capacity there for increased training opptunities with our forces and the more they highlight and create transparency around the disinformation campaign is important and on the cer yard and on the allies, these are areas and this ts back into the belt road and get their infrastructure and make them more independent only them and that leads to other countries and ability to feel data and
also advancing their tech no norms and standards and there's things we can do on the international front with threat sharing and building norms more kin to how we see the world and how we want the internet to be operated, data to be protected than the chinese model. >> it's clear to point out the people's republic of china are the aggress sore. you know, i spent five years in iraq and afghanistan and chairman fluger also had been at war and it's safe to say we don't want war. we want to prevent a war and part of that is showing that we'll stand firm with our allies to prevent those and thank you, chairman. i yield back. >> thank you i agree with mr. carrera and brought up our last speaker that we need to do more and we don't do more by
cutting the foreign aid budget and do more my investing more and the roadnd china is investing all across africa and built ports in lima and bled out sri lanka and that's what we're up against. ife walk away, that's not going to be helpful in the difficult areas. how should we be gauging that and doing in response beside look up taiwan and wha seems to be fairly difficult to get people to support anybody.
>> i would say the narrative to recent statement by the they're really great at putting us in the bucket as being aggress sores and we heard from our distinguished conessman and woman, that's not the case. i think we as united states diplomatally he to do a betterob and more effective job of making sure the world knows they're the aggressors and the great end of program as we heard and they'll use tha to show us as the aggressors. >> again, the threat to the
united states fro china is the most grave we've faced in o lifetime since theold war and we have an economic superpower in the hearing andappying that would strike us here in the homelandnd deny our octoberives overseas and watching u.s. service memrs lose fights. so it's isn't absolutelyhe large threat and you he to realize it and it wasn't being exploited and 100 other scenes and we wake up inhat moment for us here and i think we need to realize that as americans.
>> we often hear that china is not the enemy here or the competitor. has this helped in any way to deal with the problem that we're making chips at hom instead of being so dependent on them economically? >> one aspect of the chips a is when you look at 80% of the world's chips from commercial to our weapons systems, are manufactured within the first island chain and we've talked also here about the military threat. we and taiwan facility in the manufacturing and that's a benefit to that. >> sure, thank you, congresswoman.
the original question about the pathways to see chinese aggression and it's my view that the most likely avenue would be over a taiwan scenario. if one thinks about how to deter, it's the primary strategy. the first is a credible reassurance to beijing that the status quo will not change because if beijing thinks it's backing into a corner and either losing taiwan or launching a very risky and even low probability win war, it's quite possible one can imagine i'm choosing the latter and that criminal reassurance is possible and the deterrence and the only way deterrence can fail and overtime just toward beijing in the pbability they'd win the conflict and the cost of the risk would be high.
it's closely related. >> i can't see a clock and i can't go down. >> congressman, if i may amplify the comment a more on that type of legislation for partners and legislative body for funding and corporate sector to the chips and scice act must be protected now. the ideation to development of new technolies and if we don't protect it with the stolen chinese.
>> general, this question isor you and you were concerned about the age ofhe fleet .s that corrt? >> and talking aut how china contues to steal our intellectual property, is that coect as well? >> how do we stop that, general? >> the theft of intellectual property is something that probably goes beyond something i can comment on and step one is realizing that it happens and ensuring the prime contractors and subcontractors that develop our defense systems have the apprriate resiliency and hardening. the best way for us to counter china is to invest -- the investments the department of defense has made the last 20 years to fht the wars we've been in are not necessarily the investments that will make us successful against dealing with a pure competitor like china and
important we transform our investment and the ability to findhem and we can deter them through punishment and through denial and happens by investment in the department of the domain that are most critical facing a pure competitor, aerospace. >> thank you, general. my next question for mr. evenina. and you were talking about the cumentation of the intelligence agency and probably everybody up here would agree w impressive our intelligence agencies are and have been over the years. my question is are you aware of the lack of trust in the intelligence agencies by u.s. citizens? >> congresan, i am. it's a concerning issue. >> yeah. okay. and you're aware tt there's a
select committee on the weaponizatn of the federal government up here right now? >> yes, sir, i'm aware of tt. >> you know, i represent some amazing people in arizona, rural arizona. they love this country. one of the mos patriotic districts in arizona. i myself am a navy seal. i joined the navy aft 9/11 and served for 13 years and i love this country and i want our intelligence agencieso be strong. i think they need to be song for gd reason. but i'm going to tell you right now, sir, when we read years after the fact that, you kno 50 former national intelligence folks, several heads of the cia claim the hunter biden lapp is russian disinformation only to find out years later we all knew that it wasn't, thas alarming to a lot of americans. it makess lose trust in our telligence agencies and for me, whe i look at a guy like you that's done everything that you've done, as intelligence as
you are, i know that's got to miss you off. if there were 50 former navy seals out there lying t the american people and i found out about it, that wouldiss me off because it undermines the community i hol dear and you probably have a very similar endearment to your community and am i correct i assuming that? what do you think about that, sir? how do you think we regain the trust with the american people and our intelligence agency? >> congressman, you bring up a vali point that not only reaches the current event of today with the u.s. government and military apparatus and that's the core element i think. two thing haves to happen and one has to be complete trsparency of things that happen in the past but more importantly one of the great
things they're doing is getting out to districts of your local level and second tearily has to be transparency of what's real and what's happening for law enforcement intelligence agencies and declassification and transparency going on. >> mr. evanina, if it seepsike i was coming afterou today, i apologize. it'sothing personal. i love thisountry and i'm tired of like faith and trust in the institutions and organizationss a little kid i aspired tond upheld and i know i'm speaking for a lot of americans when i say that, brother. last question i have real quick isor miss bigham. you said rural china is not certain and how can we avoid war with china? thank you.
>> absolutely, congressman. i want to say that the causes are lost as we as a nation can proactively do and continuing to invest in a strong defense ensuring our forces are rdy is a signal and deterrence and making sure we invest in resilience. resilit networks so if the ccp decides to launch an attack, it'll have less empowered by faithing on our met works. we never want to send our sons and daughters into a fair fact. with the technology that's happening, we're very much at risk of sending our sons and daughters into a fair fight. superior thnology and agility in terms of how we use that technology and ensuring that we have work of them and the ccp we have and, sir, with all of your service we know that we fight in alitions and make sure that our allies are with us and not with china. >> thank you. i yield back.
>> we have logistical changes and the chairman had to step out and i'll ask unanimous consent from ms. jackson lee to be recognized for five minutes. >> we're in trouble now. >> we're both freshman. bear with us. unanimous consent. >> i recognize ms. jackson lee. >>o both the chairman and ranking member, i'm very pleased to be ae tooin you from my perspective and distinguished members ofongress and junior service and military service and before i start, i think before we're in homeland security, allow me to put on the record that to be ableo compete with china, i think i isxtremely important that they assert the
value and the ansr to why i believe the public all of the personal data of so many washingtonen, members of congress hou and senate have be briefed and any determination and who briefs it and we certain want to be on top of this and the foreign couny and exposing private data with the house and senate and responsibility of governing this mission and put it on the committee's record a hope we have some involvement ultimately in assessing that situation. this isery important hearing and i wt to begin by raising this question and'll be finished. i want to rai the qstion, dr. jones, you have described th evolution of chinese communist party thinkgnd the role around the world a in
recent years, ccp has been aimed ateveloping china acceptabilitiers and controlled global infrastructure and transportation, trade and production networksnd there's no diversi when they go into countries and they don't even use indigenou people and china is competing with the united states in a global competition over government value. we haveo win the world over by saying that our values of trade and otherwise are much bter than tirs. how successful of china's effort, what actions can the federal governmentake and frankerly i think we're nice and if you interact with us, you'll have the benefit of investment in yourwn country and you'll have the benefit of long term recovery. ny of you know that we've passed the chips act, chips and science act and goes to the former science exit tee and invests $280 billion for the
semiconductor environment and some of that may detect and unfortunately not these gentlemen here i don't think that 90% of our friends on the her side of the aisle did not vote for but they're probably working with it in their district. that goes to share that with me and i'd love to have ms. bingham. >> thank you. you raise the issue of difference in government values and i agree. all though i should know that we have some common interest if not common values. that being said, it is very true that the two countries have stark differences in the way
they see the relationship between state and society. e protections we have and it is true that china indiscrimitely are without considering the types of behavis that the tart regime or target state is conducting and will invest in itnd mentn the belt road initiative and key portions of china's efforts and i do agree that the nature of the regime in the country-specific friendtfoxnews.com is important and there's some research thatuggests that economic state craft that china uses for example is less effecte when the target country is democratic a there's a institute of logic there and it's iividuals just like in the unite states that can mobilize against the government if they'ren collusion with the chinese
communist party forllistic gain. they can hol them accountable. so think that is a mecnism to shape china ability in which you're describing. >> congressman, if i can add, you mentioned it exactly rig. china has a play book they're using with the belton road and we've seen it with the courts 5g are examples and supports where they go into countries and jaire countries andjibudi is an exampt across the globe. we as a government -- i was going to say formally. the government needs to find out how to bring the national place to provide alternative and i have an example of our
commercial space and the space is phenomenal and soft power for americans and the companies and way we can leverage some of the wer technologies and clearly protecting and ensuring they don't fall into the hands of the ccp but working with aies and partners across the globe that want to work with these areas and figuring out ways to get that kind ofnformation to them and relying on the u.s. governments also important. >> it's been established as the belton road technolog or approach and to the frame work of the democracy of the nion. we need to use that power to our value and of course to our technology and i like commercial space just because i'm a math
aoafish that doe. aficionado. >> thank you, jackson lee and i want to thank the witnessesor their testimony today and woe y have additional qstions for the witnesses and ask them to respond to the writing and pursuant to committ rule 7d and it'lle open for 10 days. without objections this committee stands adjourned.