Skip to main content

tv   American History TV  CSPAN  November 15, 2014 8:00pm-2:47am EST

8:00 pm
biases. -- everything fits with also does a killer. whenever he talks on the subject, he always shapes that evidence. he continues to shape it in the same way. junkis why there has been science in the kennedy case. it is everywhere pervasive. thank you very much. [applause] >> you are watching american history tv. 48 hours of american history programming each weekend on c-span3. to keep with the latest history news.
8:01 pm
we were live earlier today from memorial inr norfolk, virginia. next you'll hear about the wartime role of the u.s. navy, as well as archaeological work on the trenches of the western front area our symposium concludes with a panel on the war felt like his. -- the war's legacy. >> good morning. how is everyone this fine morning area --this fine morning? welcome to the city of norfolk for those of you who have not been here before. it has been my honor and privilege to be the director here at the macarthur memorial right in the heart of downtown norfolk virginia. we were dedicated back in 1964. our mission is to interpret the
8:02 pm
life and times of general douglas macarthur and in his words, look toward the future but do not neglect the past. that spirit we are gathered here today. for much of the world, the key events of general macarthur's life -- this is part of a coordinated strategy lasting from this year, 2014, all the way into 2019 area and stay tuned. like this be more coming. we have two floors of exhibits on his life and time. i encourage you to take time to explore the museum while you are here and certainly come back as cs again. at this time, i would like to our partners who helped us put on the symposium. without them, we would not be
8:03 pm
here today. old dominion university, southern bank, the hampton roads naval museum and the naval historic foundation. thank you to our partners. [applause] do have aget going, i couple housekeeping items i want to pass along. first of all, if you have not already, please turn off or silent your cell phones. if they can ring at the wrong time, they will. also please hang onto your programs. badges, please keep these, too, because these get you dining discounts for lunch and dinner at select local restaurants. these will save you some money. leaves hang onto these. keep in mind we are on c-span. during the q and a please theome -- these wait for
8:04 pm
mike to come around to you. i think that takes care of that. if leaves me to introduce dr. timothyorr. has written on union mobilization and the lives of union soldiers are his latest research focuses on artisan conflict -- partisan conflict within the army of the atomic and also u.s. naval divebombing during the battle of midway. americans courses on naval history, virginia history, and the history of the civil war and reconstruction. dr. timothy orr. [applause] >> on september 13th, 1917, a
8:05 pm
german soldier who had been at the front lines for a full year when he received the iron cross he was nots -- pleased. at first he admitted the metal offered him some small sense of compensation for his services, but the more he looked at it, the more despicable it appeared. he said when i was left alone with the cross i had quite different thoughts in my mind them before. he elaborated saying the more he looked at it, the less it looked like a sigil and the more it looked like a ghastly representation of the war's brutality. he looked at the color -- solid with basically yellow edge. the more he looked at it, the -- imaginedged
8:06 pm
black was congealed on a yellowish dead face, bandages crusted with bus, flaccid gangrene flesh on the stump of a leg. return toeduled to the front of the next day and he did not want to see all of the black and yellow sites again. he said, i am low spirited, pale and love the dust area incidentally he did not have to wait long. -- a few dayser later he was killed. the symbol of the i and cross took on two meanings. one, a symbol of courage and fortitude. the other, the emblem of suffering and dead. what the metal
8:07 pm
might be designed to symbolize. the other, the final analysis humanof the nature of existence. the great war was like all armed conflicts, symbolizing the essential disparity between what the great war was and what people wanted it to be. it did notue that the lesson. learn with great rapidity, the soldiers accepted the war's spirit, despite the national discourse. how could such a transformation happen so quickly? i would contend the sleeping forces of organization countered the speed with which humanity
8:08 pm
destroyed itself. strategist for so well -- strategists were so well prepared for this work. that held back destruction. senseless and caos. you get the sense that organization went hand-in-hand. when the great war began, it the military in europe flat handed. germany possessed the to plans to invade. the sweeping plan. 10 movement to belgium witth german armies going against french the fences.
8:09 pm
they ultimately strategy in the years after. the french meanwhile, set an elaborate plan of their own. which involved a massive army this slammed ing the gemini -- germany left flank. they were untries so not ready. defenses ran into trouble. offense made it incredible ng an sweep to belgian.
8:10 pm
leapfrogging moves from the german and the allies, to tell the enemy to the northern flank. run out ctober they had of land. great of a stalemate. for the soldiers the early base the war was open. one german soldier in his words, he felt ashamed to
8:11 pm
that one may regard it the mercy of god if one is safe and sound.
8:12 pm
riding to his parents he said, ,es, i can hardly believe it but it is true. i am on my way home to read over, -- i am on my way home. i am on my way. i was taunted that i would never see your world again. i will look into your eyes once more. unfortunately an unseen obstacle to the rise. again,r returned home dead from tetanus. were soldiers like lemmer spared the horrors of the later years, but it is worthwhile to note there was no easy combat. took place on the other side of europe. here the germans placed a single army. path, the russian army. on the eastern front, the german
8:13 pm
army operated on the notion that it would stall for time until the western front was decided. oddly enough it was here that expressed great tactics. they nearly annihilated the russian army. progress. arrival of of the reinforcements, the russians were ready. although the eastern front represented hell on earth, the next two years by end of the war 9 million allied soldiers have died.
8:14 pm
wire and deep trenches. a german soldier went into no man's land. the whistle of bullets, on the right another man was shot in the arm. we're supposed to fire but there was no enemy. getting into er on the disorder. tic tac, our own machine gun was firing at our backs. from behind we heard the cry of the soldier. we crawled out in spite of the fire.
8:15 pm
over later we had crawled the dead bodies. was killed soon after, in may 1915. allies and central powers. they had gas attacks and with special infiltration units. land ing through no man's and barb wire. 1915, the spring of everyday since small engagement occurred along the line.
8:16 pm
august, they to committed 1.2 million german soldiers. by the end of the struggle the in something thousand casualties. battlewas ust as the going to close, the british organized an ambitious offensive. using the british fourth army of the french fifth, they went into the gym -- german line. there was little destruction with their artillery.
8:17 pm
the afflicted 30,000 casualties. that number rose to 57,000. they did nothing to break the deadlock. the fighting was done, and had a particularly devastating effect on the survivors. overpowering urge, even ask a mutiny just for self-preservation. in the shell holes. soldier to set down and waited in whole what they were going to kill him. soon wondered enlisted men started to fill the whole
8:18 pm
asking for help. what can we do? there ror some visible in is that everywhere. two of them was seriously hit. in addition he lost a leg. the second man has no faith, and an arm blown off. lieutenant, don't make me die. another important me to kill him. terrible moments. mud. were splattered with
8:19 pm
they died before eyes without anybody been able to help. that did not hold the allies back. in 1917 the only increased the frequency. knowing russia is seen knockout. a series of the language ake in flandes. by this point the german had mastered the defense. this allowed allied troops to in only to find a hot system of defense. the germans minimize the
8:20 pm
losses. inflicting heavy losses between the british and french. british lost 40,000 men. 1917 the ictory in german army did not sit back. with the us now sitting on the side of the allies. believe the army was under the clock. plant g diligently, they in meticulous sprints hoping to have the armies in the western front. the german army clouded the british position to share back
8:21 pm
a mile. still, germany's offense did not have the goal. impetus general maintain the line. by the time it was over and over 688,000 have died. the spring german offensive, a signal an important change in the effort. us forces entered the war back in april 1917. 50,000 arrived in summer. that demonstrate offense, attacking a newly arrived american division.
8:22 pm
by the americans held their sector firm. they initiate a counteroffensive of their own. defensive one better than anticipated. if produced what is known as the black day of the german army. he ordered two simultaneous offenses. the primarily american current more than 80,000 troops. all the other offenses, it was terribly disappointing. if a shot of his objectives.
8:23 pm
to the americans the award started like they had not imagined. accepting hard time unsafe. ry area was soldier found a hard to consent the filthiness of the war he saw around him. he noted the horrible conditions on the road. rain in ouring down november 2. we crossed the stream, then we were told to sleep anywhere be pleased. blanket downin the mud. the death of
8:24 pm
friends that died from other ones that were not from battle. he recalls the death of a man from his unit. a soldier from oregon decided he and i had enough. trigger and his brain was all of the ground. he was getting to stay in ecided france. but he's bitter memory was the invocation camp in 1919 waiting after the war ended. conditions were so bad in the so just so f you bad.
8:25 pm
home to local newspaper, german prisoners have not been treated so bristly -brutally as americans had. he n he went back to the us made a poem. we have loaded ships in the cold. we went about our duties. we knew it would be heaven when we got back or breath. when we laid aside, they were not even ask us to dust golden stairs. were here st. peter
8:26 pm wellfleet is preserved peace after the war. the members of all of those which perished in the wall. the government organization took a primary mission of preventing war. service -- observers have their doubts.
8:27 pm
in fortunes, ed war accomplished a thing. it was the bloodiest war in human history. the r the formation of league of nations. conflicts upon armed with pessimism. are not our nation's in war.
8:28 pm
to have ill continue the idea that the national spirit will prevail. the reality is that we can create unbreakable that looks. a veteran was asking for the peace in the 20th century. i cannot see how human ideas can be settled. except by force. make it impossible only when he's forced to do so. thank you very much. [applause]
8:29 pm
>> good morning. our first panel of speakers today can share their knowledge about archaeology and the great work. our first speakers andrew robertshaw. was previously the head of education at the national art museum in london and then after that, the director of the museum and camberley -- in camberley. he lectures for their norwegian army and provides historical events.tion for the he has led several archaeological projects on the western front. books,e author of 15 including digging the trenches,
8:30 pm
which came out in hardcover in 2008. he was recently given the prestigious honor of being named a fellow -- he will be sharing onh us today his work archaeology. welcome andrew robertshaw. [applause] >> good morning come everybody. thank you very much for the invitation. thank you very much for coming out today. i hope to make this interesting. i want to look at a number of things. a new discipline of archaeological -- i will field archaeological -- battlefield archaeology. individuals on
8:31 pm
found in 2005. i want to start with a joke. doing british way of things. i was asked to give a talk to a society of genealogists. they take themselves terribly seriously. the's why i'm a member of society of family historians. the story i told them was based on the 1920's. the british comedian named max miller. when he was about 22, he went and saidsaw his father i want to marry miss green. his dad said you can marry her. i had a bicycle and i got around a bit. she might be your sister. went back and said i've been going out with announcement. i want to marry is smith. got aroundcycle and a
8:32 pm
a bit. you can't marry her. she might be your sister. he give it another three months and he came home. he said i've been talking to my dad twice about two girls i wanted to marry. on both occasions, he said you can't marry them because when i was your age i had a bike and got around a bit and before i met your mother, things happened , both girls cadet and my sister. what should i do? she said, don't worry, he's not your dad. genealogistsf didn't take very well to that. i'm hoping it will do rather better this morning. this is what we are talking about. we are talking about battles and wars. almost 200 years ago, there was a battle in belgium.
8:33 pm
buried.l officers were the other ranks when into bits. .- into pits that did not change until the 20th century. the monuments of the western front that we are familiar with, later taken over by the employer will -- imperial war graves commission. some of these guys were not so fortunate. we have the missing. partly of what i'm talking about is the missing. they are recorded on a number of memorials. monuments which actually recorded those people who ended up buried in trenches. people buried in shell holes. buried in collapsed dugouts. will of waysne the
8:34 pm
you might have ended up missing. with 72,000memorial names of missing on it. if you were a british soldier, were required to take out of your pocket a coin to throw it to get has once, throat and get heads twice and then three times . if you did it seven times, that's your chance of being on here. because they are missing, they exercise an immense amount of interest on behalf of the families who have nowhere to grieve. which is why we end up with the tomb of the unknown soldier. teeth dealing with a number of different sites. feet and set of british boots.
8:35 pm
this is all we found of this soldier. how many sets of human remains have your team discovered? the answer is about 27. what about 27? what if this was traumatic and b amputation? he might have ended up in a wiltshire. he might not have died on the spot. -- ended up in a wheelchair. the farmer got up his tractor and found the sets of remains, put them in a crate and handed them over to us and said, what is this? take them over to the commonwealth contact the german equivalent of the war funded bymission voluntary contribution and say we have found these remains. in the middle of it is an id tag.
8:36 pm
this is a man killed almost at the end of the war. killed in august of 1918. for most of our projects, it's actually being looking for sites. we don't go looking for the dead per se. other people have. the project looking for australians in the last couple of years produced 250 sets of from cemeteries. they were dug up and remarried. you can question the morals of doing that. belongedp of remains to a group of friends alters killed in the very beginning of the great war. novelist andas a poet. fournier was famous before the war. famous because of his death. buried with his platoon in an
8:37 pm
improvised burial, as we see here. 20 years ago, a group of french archaeologists said we ought to go find him and that's what they did. wouldent out to do what i call prospecting for the dead. they knew where he was and they found him. the identified virtually everyone by name. this site is now open to the public. you can go see where they were found. elsewhere, human remains are found almost on a monthly basis. very often, the head of development -- these bodies are men found by jack and his team. the archaeologist for the city. my role on these occasions if i'm called is not to deal with the forensic side or anthropology, but to deal with the question of dating of these debts. how do i know that?
8:38 pm
i'm supposed to be an expert on equipment. these germans here clearly died after september 1916 from the area they are found. helmets. steel with them is there equipment that helps mediate them. we can look at this man here lying on his back wearing a -- a burial from 1914. they did away with a spiked helmet very rapidly in combat because it gives them away. having established those credentials, what we might consider then is this. this is one of the most famous sets of remains discovered. this is quite late in the war. 1917. these are members of the rims -- grims. the journalist decided -- these
8:39 pm
bodies here have been linked by the fact that each man's elbow is over the man next to him. the germans decided this was some sort of dance but cobb -- macabre.t one thing you have to be aware of is you cannot be too romantic about these things. this is a burial view of the same site -- aerial view of the same site. if you look over here, you've got somebody's laying with legs and arms in place but nobody. the bodies had been laid out by their friends.
8:40 pm
interesting that you would lay out bodies when you've found body parts. a set of burials that have been hit by a shell. you have to be very careful. all the skills we actually used csi are what we have to bring to this. humanles that governed remains in the western front, you need the machines from the french authorities and permission from the commission. we were never able to use dna analysis. however, when they set out to , it was 500 bodies committ prefigured on the use and recovery of dna. which is why they have identified over 120 of these men by name. in a previous project run by the thep of enthusiasts called
8:41 pm
diggers in belgium, they were covered over 100 bodies. identified one by name. their methodology was very poor. my methodology was born here. there are lots of projects. we started in the village of ocean villas. to give you an idea of how early it wasn't how many experts there were -- this is a communication trench behind british lines. it is not desperately exciting. in terms of methodology, greatly important. we went into this area haven't been aware that the owner was -- area wasdetector being metal detected on a regular basis. we agreed to help her by taking her garden and seeing what is there. we knew it was there because it shows up on the aerial photographs and the trench maps and we knew it was right behind her house. we did not know what was in it.
8:42 pm
what we found was brick lining. the bottom of the trench would be lined with a layer of bricks. they looked into the hole and said that was all done by the french. had --he war when they that's what they did. we do not have the heart to tell checked. we we knew who had done it and how long it took. about the brick line trenches of ocean villas. that's exactly what we found. then we discovered a layer of shattered titles on top of the bricks. people said this had come from the stage in the war when the roof was on the house, the shelling meant the roof fell into the trench.
8:43 pm
all of that would have been logical had it not been for the fact that archaeology does not stand alone. we checked the war diaries. we found in the diary of the 87 in the village of the brick linings are a problem. and theome slick stretcher bearers are coming in with boots around their nexcks. this has got to stop, it says. no war diary ever talks about how you deal with slippery trenches. if you are in a village and you have slippery trenches, you get soldiers to go get the broken slates and titles and smash them up with sledgehammers and mallets and put them in as a nonslip layer. health and safety. 1915 style.
8:44 pm
that means we can now say that that's why did we bother? there is always something to learn. in the early project, having gone from ocean villa, we were asked by the bbc to do a project. the director of the project is here. what a coincidence. dugoutslooking for the in which wilfred owen shows us in the poem "blinded for the century." the century is blinded by a shell. a very moving poem. with money from the bbc, we would use a team of archaeologists and find the entrance and talk about it. we felt. we found many things. .- we failed
8:45 pm
we found 1915 and 1916. we found a set of human remains on day one. we were not looking for them. this is something we knew might happen. we actually had a headless body. the body had been untouched by the plowing but the plowing had taken up the head. we had somebody come onto site who turned out to be a journalist. she came along and looked at and looked remains at him and said i suppose you will use dental records. [laughter] which is interesting. we found around his neck and identity tag.
8:46 pm
we continued to work on the project to find the dugout and wilford owen. he found another set of remains. a british soldier lying on his back on top of the trench system. he was on top of the trench system. the other was behind. oa mine.lled in by the regiment he was in was only there for one day. they lost 110 attacking this position. we then continued to work and found this man lying on his side bearing close to the first soldier and slightly behind the second. officer lying on his side. he had his watch, a mouth organ,
8:47 pm
harmonica and a flint scraper. the sky became known as the archaeologists. -- this guy became known as the archaeologist. and the youngs british soldier. we asked permission to do dna and we were told you could not do it. we approached the germans and said do what you like as long -- can you pay for? we have tv money. that's fine. [laughter] the work was done. it was very interesting. no money ishey had because they are actually entirely sponsored by the public. they have still one million missing from the second world war on the eastern fronts.
8:48 pm
back at the university of london , people got to work. we have already gone here. we had already gone to the monuments of the missing. took it in turns to read out the names of those members. we knew we had read his name out. what we did not know was who he was. he was then buried in october. with full military honors. they took it in terms to read his name out. a rather smaller list. 110 missing. it was nothing we could do other than to say we knew his height and age. that was it. as soon as he was buried, we were approached by two sets of families who said we think it's our granddad were great uncle.
8:49 pm
can we provide dna? yes, but no sample is allowed to be taken. every second of july when i go to the monument now, i will find there is on the grave a little rose tree left behind by the families. red rose of lancaster. back in the laboratory, the identity tag was cleaned. it was extremely unclear what it meant. it said reserve regiment and had number seven company. there was nothing we could do. at that point, i would have given up. luckily, i was not there. the south korean student working on this one turned it on with back and cleaned the back as well. honess and of it is the name of the village she came from. we then got in touch with
8:50 pm
somebody who's next bird in the german army in this area. he is actually from new york. ralph whitehead was able to give us some help. -- somebody who's an expert in army in thisea in thi area. he said his number was reserve regiment 121st, number seven company, number 228. he was able to give us his height and age. 36 years old with six children. he died on the third of june 1915 fighting the french. which i found somehow reassuring. my grandfather was not serving at that point. it felt better knowing that he had not been killed by a brick. -- by a brit.
8:51 pm
alfred said would you like to meet the family and we said yes. they still live in the village. within 24 hours, we have his picture. honess ande shows his brother. children,hind a six one of whom was born on christmas eve 1914. he was still alive -- his grandson went to see him and said they have found your dad on the battlefield. the gentleman said i always knew they would. i always knew they would. die onan was going to 1916 fightingly us the british. it is behind the german lines.
8:52 pm
exactly the same as the ocean villa. when we did the archaeological dig her, we were unable to get our accommodation. thebbc book us into village. we followed the route of these men to their deaths every time we went to site. there was more work to be done. we had to work on the officer. and thethe harmonica watch. past six. 10 minutes -- of the things that have if you don't loot them, the enemy will. we found this complete pocket watch. he had his tobacco and money and watch. and he had a book. the book was very decayed.
8:53 pm
it wasn't sent back to ucl and they got to work on it what did they discover? it was a bank book. incame from a village northern germany. we got in touch with ralph white and said is there any officer in the german 121st reserve regiment who has any contact at all with northern germany? is one. yes, there he's an officer killed on the sixth of june, 1915. number seven company. he was the decorator. he kept his bank account in northern germany.
8:54 pm
we checked the bank out. there was not any money in the counts. that's in the accounts. [laughter] we found, strangely, even if the young soldier had survived, he would not have been able to use the bank. it was jewish owned. we touched one more and then covered quite a bit of another one. his grandson put an advert in the newspaper. he said we found the young soldier. is there anybody out there in southern germany related to albert? intoan called allison came the university for the english-language theater company. she was running a play about the
8:55 pm
first world war, and irish vc who comes back to the island. someone said, can you ask your husband, crawl, whether he might carl, whether he might be related. he said he is my great-uncle. he went missing in the first world war in june of 1915. the family never knew what happened to him. guess what, i have a photograph of him. this isnge thing about -- where carl was studying english. he was writing a dissertation on his favorite war poet who was wilfred owen. this photograph is marked by burns.
8:56 pm
you can see scorching. this is the only thing recovered from the house when it was bombed in may of 1945. you go from one more to another. -- one war to another. that is allison and other members of the team. we went to see where this soldier had come from. the two germans were buried here. about 118 miles from where they were found. the germans cannot afford to bury them in a local cemetery. at least they were buried with their comrades. they decided to put up a monument erected at the edge of the field where the men were found. when it was unveiled, the stoodor of the museum with me and said this is the most unusual monument.
8:57 pm
is it the smallest? no, it's not the smallest. ath two germans and a british soldier on one monument. 100 years later, a reconciliation still takes time. this turned up on ebay of all things. there is a wreath hung in a trench. down there, it says in memory of comrades.allen had that arrived before the archaeology, it would have been inexplicable. except that we know this was dated june, 1915. those men we found had been buried in shell holes or scratch graves on the back of the trench with the intention that after the war the german soldiers would come back, recover their
8:58 pm
comrades and give them the honor burial they deserved. the fortunes of war did not allow that to happen. i want to at least have the great privilege of being buried. expert on the recovery of human remains is saying if you fail to identify people, whether deliberate or accidentally, you have effectively kill them twice. this now becomes explicit until we get the archaeology. this would have made no sense at all. you need to understand the evidence we've got here. i'm going a bit further to justify what were doing. this is the site of the battle by them inre rated
8:59 pm
the dark. this was a massive human remains. leave aed we would permanent security guard. he was probably british and he was buried as an unknown soldier of the great war. one afternoon in my clumsy attempts to help come i managed to find a german soldier. one of the only academics ever have able to say that they broken the jaw of a german soldier with a shovel. [laughter] he was 19, but he had been dead for some time. he was part of a mass burial. because of the conditions, we -- we hadredibly leather and paper and cloth.
9:00 pm
we had virtually everything. the other problem we had was we almost poisoned ourselves. the reason the middle of these bodies were missing is because they had been given a layer of lime to help them to compose. they're working in the dark and six-hour shifts. hadid not realize we disturbed the chloride of lime. what we found were very well preserved sets of human remains. all german. two were prussians. the rest were bavarians. the bavarian archives in munich is incredible useful. they survived the second world war intact. we were able to reconstruct how the bodies were late in the grave and then do this. this is the back of a german soldier. he is a bavarian. whether it's bavarian -- their
9:01 pm
records and survived intact. you don't stand much chance -- this guy here in the middle of -- pile ofodies bodies had a complete in the form. the ribbon of second-class. i don't know what he thought of wasbut he pinned it on to uniform end up on his shoulders -- and up on his soldier had number 16. what we were able to do is recover this, a postcard. that postcard gives us his name. rothermel. leopold october, the 13th of 1915. munich in the records in
9:02 pm
that his place of burial is not known. it is now because i was there when he was buried. more portly, we found this. the remains from the beginning of the war. -- more importantly, we found this. he was exempt from military service. he did his two years training but was not expected to fight because he was exempt from service. his brother is killed in the battle of frontiers. leopold volunteered. he went off to war. what do you think his chances are of being in a good? he's doing very well. according to the history of the regiment, there is an outbreak of musicality in the regiment. they form a band and orchestra.
9:03 pm
it is not very often that you can do a link from the first -- this songbook includes the words and music esley on that elvis prost la brought back. the song is "wooden heart." a german marching song. we have in the fight our soldier and knew about his brother -- identified our soldier and his brother. we went to find where the family had lived. we knew the address. his father was an electrician and his mother a tobacconist when we got to the house, there was nothing there at all. it was a memorial park. we went over to where the plaque was. it said it was a memorial for the bombing in 1943.
9:04 pm
it wiped out the entire city block. it was one final twist of the story. i mentioned leopold was about 23. an artist. he was a corporal. we knew that from his collar. he was a recipient of the arm class -- iron cross second class. guess what? in the same year that leopold died in battle, we know who killed them, we know how he died, there was another soldier, not german but austrian, a volunteer in the number three company. slightly older than leopold. an artist of sorts with the iron cross second class. that man was adolf hitler. if you look at this war, you immediately see another.
9:05 pm
we are now in a situation where we are continuing to do work. we have never yet gone prospecting for the debt. we have been approached to do just that by a large number of people. i have spoken to the mayor and said we would like to mark where he is. the mayor said i wouldn't bother. why not? the way it works in french law, if a family don't claim the plot 400 years, we can sell it -- for 100 years, we can sell it and build on it. you have about one year. we have another site. 54 bodies, we know where they are buried because the men who buried them was a german officer who wrote to the family of the young officer he had found and send i buried your son and his
9:06 pm
comrades and he gives a map reference. it is under a large industrial area. we think that site needs protection. there will be others. we're not going to set off for to look for the dead, but we will get ready. this story is in some ways depressing. a death once said that in a war is like throwing out the stone into a pond. the ripples go out and then come back. on, itroved with the s still matters. it doesn't matter to me and my team whether we are dealing with german orlgian, british. we will do everything we can to make sure these men get the best treatment possible to which were they are buried not just as an
9:07 pm
unknown soldier, but identify them by their regimen or name. because the australians paid for ll, the of dna for ame rules have now changed. they cannot prevent us from taking the dna in the future. we will be able to start building up a database. there are too many prospectors for the debt. when human remains are found, i will do everything i can with my small teams when sure that every means available are used to establish who they are. we do not want to see these men killed twice. thank you for listening. [applause] >> we would like to take some
9:08 pm
questions from the audience. raise your hand and i will come find you and give you the mic. any questions? given the concern you raised about looters getting there before you have a chance to work and the massive scale of the front come on wondering if your team or other teams are working on efforts to proactively survey the western front. all the things we used to survey all over the world in archaeology to try to identify where these sites might be. if there is already building over it, move on. but work on the site that are still accessible. right now ision that we are looking at one particular area, the area around the village. famous for the memorial to the newfoundland regiments.
9:09 pm
we have been offered the chance r. usea lighta unfortunately, we do not have 30,000 pounds. that is what it would take to do that survey. we are trying to which were that wherever there are reports of human remains, we do something about it. the point about the raid was if you dig a hole anywhere in europe, looters regarded as being in invitation to come have a look. work, we have any 24 hour security. sadly, that does not mean it does not happen. i was asked by somebody to go to their house and they said what is this and there was a set of human remains with no insignia. the city came from the field.
9:10 pm
somebody came end of this poor guy out and put him at the side of the hole. all metal and insignia gone. williams and went to find my wife, could not find my wife, found my daughter and mommy and she said mommy has gone shopping in your car. that was the car with the garbage bag in the back. i had to phone her and say there is a big surprise in the boot. do not open it. there can be some dark humor in this. are they doing the type of archaeology you are doing on the eastern part as well? >> i was asked to go with look at the site near berlin. my guide was a guy called dave schiller. x israel he special forces man.
9:11 pm
when he picked me up from the airport, i was surprised to see when he reached to open up the visor on the car that he had a nine millimeter. why have you got a nine millimeter? don't worry, you have an automatic as well in the glove compartment. i don't normally get this. the problem is, the pocket has been strip mined by members of metal detecting groups who were sponsored by the russian mafia. they will defend their pitches. it's also being defended by the neo-nazi far right who is regarding it as a sacred site. we both have weapons in case anything kicks off. i did not do the project. burial'sat shallow like. i did not want to be one of them.
9:12 pm
there are big problems with the eastern front. it's probably getting worse. a lot of websites are drying out. if you want to go on ebay and german id tags, they are available. one, you ensure that german soldier will remain missing. it's the purchase of not to memorabilia. memorabilia. it's fueling that business. you are part of the civil war preservation trust. we regarded those as sacred sites. visit --ne the whole everything is there. are there preservation efforts going on within france and
9:13 pm
belgium to try to protect these areas because it appears the relic hunters have gotten out of control. there is a place for those things, but they are not following that. >> if you are caught with a metal detector in france, there are no penalties other than the fact that you lose your equipment and you go to prison. [laughter] they are quite strict. we have to ask for permission from the french authorities to use any kind of equipment. they are absolutely rabid about it. i know battles like antietam are big, but we are talking about massive. ,f landowners give permission prying eyes will never see them. you've got signs everywhere. i was down there and someone
9:14 pm
said to me the you would have gophers in france? no, that is called a metal detectorist. we holes all over the site ere fresh work. they're taking away the evidence. it's information you can use. >> one of the themes i picked up is the considerable loss of data as the result of the second world war. the destruction of public record 1940. during the blitz in i'm wondering if you can talk about the other roadblocks. inbecause of german bonding
9:15 pm
1940, 60% of british service records were destroyed. they can never be reconstructed. my grandfather, we have a metal index card that says he was eligible for two metals and he was into regiments. that is it. he was in three regiments. germansive for the means their medieval archives all go. there is nothing at all. , they are bavarian untouched because they were not there. that state system is very beautiful. going onan initiative in the u k run by the imperial war museum asking people to add information to what is already in the public domain. photographs. once you have a photograph, it makes it all more poignant once you have those images.
9:16 pm
they are retrofitting comic in people to say give us the information or we can use public domain. i know during world war i that medical hospitals were moved close to battlefields. obviously, when the medical field hospital -- they knew who they were dealing with. i've always wondered because of the accounts i've read where so many people had to be buried, i've always wondered if they were reburied. i was wondering if you came across any sites that were clearly tied to the medical field hospitals. ware are not looking at burials p we are looking at hasty battlefield burials. it will say things like all hallows or a ds.
9:17 pm
that is a cemetery associated with the station. british doctor ar dies at theork it site. the big field hospital and big training camps are where they have the biggest cemetery's. it's the only place where they actually do anything to indicate rank. in every other cemetery, you get the same burial. what they have done, they have put a semicircle of officers. and then in dispersed it with others, which is a bit creepy. i'm sure the other wrecks would have been a bit cross about how they did it.
9:18 pm
ranks would have been a bit cross about how they did it. it's a segregated cemetery, which is very unusual. not the way it was done at the time. >> thank you. we are due for a break. we will come back at 11:00 for our second speaker. thank you. [applause] and personalities that led to the catastrophic worldwide conflict. during this brief break, we are joined by the author of to train catrine clay. on the centennial, a lot has been written about george, nicholas ii.
9:19 pm
talk about georgie, nikki, willie, as they were known in their youth and what they were like as boys and young men growing up. >> that is a very important question. because sometimes if you look at willie who became taser -- kaiser wilhelm would have been different if he had not been born with the arm, you know, crippled. as the prime minister said, not quite there. things might have been extremely different. being born like that, he had a mother that could not love him. he grew up extremely disadvantaged i would say an prone later very much to suffering. nickyher two, georgie and
9:20 pm
, had adoring parents could you might say they were indulged. eddie who later died, their used to go in the middle of class and take them out for visits into the park. they had a lovely childhood. nikki was adored by his father and mother. there was great contrast between these three. as they grew up, they would go to each other's parties. is -- they would gradually shape up the likes and dislikes within that royal family. they were like any other family.
9:21 pm
surprisingly, the danish lot did not really like willie. who gradually became more and more difficult. , williehat family gradually came to hate england. that's a very important factor in the whole lead up to the first world war. >> can you talk about the role queen victoria played in the lives of these three cousins? >> she played quite an important role, of course. was for important role
9:22 pm
her eldest daughter. she married the crown prince frederick in prussia. for theextremely keen countries to come together. it did not work because the prussians did not like the british and increasingly the british did not like the prussians. william was caught between the two. otherwise, he was ached -- she was a good grandmother. not a particularly good mother. booku mentioned in your that the king, the kaiser and czar failed to recognize the signs of this. i suppose they were caught up with their own lives.
9:23 pm
they had a wedding in berlin in 1913 which was the kaiser's youngest daughter. she was getting married. all three of the cousins were together for the wedding. they would get together for weddings and funerals. the normal family way. this was a splendid occasion. there they all were. they had no idea there was this thing coming up within a year. ,he kaiser later admitted george the fifth soon realized the kaiser cap trained to listen to what georgie and nicky were saying. them.ere plotting against a warhad already been castle in berlin in 1912.
9:24 pm
politically, war was in the cards long before it officially broke out. , ithis berlin wedding looked like a happy occasion. but it was not. >> when they went from standing together to defending the monarchies of europe to contributing to their downfall -- 1908? you thinking of i'm not quite sure what you are referring to. >> at what point was it that they went from standing together to helping contribute to its downfall? was the wedding the turning point for them or had it started before? >> the turning point was long before.
9:25 pm
they never really got along. wasof the turning points that willie did not get along at all with edward. you have to understand, this all goes back a long way. in denmark, there was the war with the prussians. had parther, the king of his kingdom taken away by the prussians. princesses, won the mother of georgie and the load -- loaky, thed the prussians from that moment on.
9:26 pm
as soon as he became king when queen victoria dies, he started planning the one thing which was an unconstitutional act. the germans and russians were autocrats. we had the constitutional monarchy. you could not do something entirely on your own. no minister. he said he was going to -- he established the basis. , analyzet you do that between france and britain ininst germany, that was
9:27 pm
1904. imagine how far back all that goes. this goes on through the years. many strands to the first world war. he nevertheless made his contributions. one of the problem with the royals is that they did not fully appreciate that their private lives and their comings become political acts on the big stage. >> we have about one minute left. did any of these three cousins lament their lost relationship before the end of the war or the end of their lives?
9:28 pm
>> i'm sorry, i'm not getting you very clearly. this appreciate your time morning. thank you for joining us on american history tv. we will be taking your calls today between 12:00-1:00 here eastern time on c-span3. the role of the u.s. navy in world war i. please welcome mr. joseph hoyt. [applause] >> thank you. i am really glad to be here. of ore i start, for those to who have never try identify human remains this is very hard.
9:29 pm
went in we had full dna analysis and facial reconstruction. were 16 sailors lost. who they could of been, who our were associated with external identify them. we have some butterfields even here in the us waters. many people are unaware that there are two world wars. and who uick background
9:30 pm
i am. in the us territorial waters. normally based on ecosystem. national sanction for wales. we have recently found associated aircraft. bay freshwater, that protects about 300 rakes associated with lake shipping.
9:31 pm
we have these two sites that we focus on marine archaeology. sites have y of the some shipwrecks. we have a program called the maritime heritage program. focus on up and only ecological resources or the are historically significant. to give you a background on why we do this can work. to look into ed butterfield -- battlefield archaeology. these are considered foreign wars. when we think of sites
9:32 pm
associated with those, with think of france. we ever, in world war ii have pearl harbor. for the ocean ue wars. we started looking at the activity during the second world war. in north carolina alone them in such. this ve been focusing on from the landscape. we are in eriod that now gives us a much better opportunity to look at these things. a landscape on t land, it is much easier to get your hand around it. then trenches and operations of
9:33 pm
fire. when you look at sea battle is more difficult. with marine survey technology and the advancements, they're making this possible. because they are in a vast space. this takes a flat plane to a 3-d landscape. with topography, within the water column with 3-d space. stationed airfields onshore. the atmosphere colum becomes important.
9:34 pm
we started doing this looking at world war two. we have been at it for more than seven years. we have started to looking out the first battle in 1918. to don't have the sites remember the significance of and world war r i ii, which have shaped the world. gettysburg and yorktown, we set said these were things happened. atlantic in in the us waters can be the important. but they do not have the public attention that they ought to. to talk predominantly
9:35 pm
on the resources that are north carolina waters. give you it is interesting to note the reason the confederacy developed submarine technology was because it was apparent they could not hold up anything against the fusion navy -- union navy so they started looking at cheaper ways to create blockades.
9:36 pm
became partnd minds of the confederate response to those blockades. majorwere never really players in the overall war effort. that is not so for will work one -- world war i. there was similar impetus for development of the german navy. ii, thee world war campaign took place from the beginning to the end of the war. ominously, this was thought around the british isles and mediterranean, the same case in world war ii. but there was a significant campaign in u.s. waters. i want to talk about why they were doing this, the british surface fleet and more on commerce. the idea initially when the german navy was developing convinced, they were and rightly so, that the german
9:37 pm
high seas fleet had no comparison to the royal navy. were to gof they into what would be considered a classic style naval conflict, the germans would not stand a chance against the british. u-boatsbegan to develop with the initial idea they would be able to tip the scales could they could sneak out, and sink some british capital ships, the battleships. they were somewhat successful, but it was never enough to tip powerales to balance the to where they could have a real surface engagement. this is predominantly because of the way the u-boats were operating in this time. they were not as efficient as they became later in world war ii. they were slow underwater. wolfpack not operating
9:38 pm
tactics like in later years. wait and setit and up a u-boat trap. you would have surface vessels that would try to lure the british navy into an area where the u-boats were operating to sync them with 20 -- torpedoes. it was inefficient. it started to shift into this commerce were. this is a tactic that has been a part of every major conflict in world history, to cut off the enemy's supply chain. this is particularly effective against britain, an island nation. at this time, the vast majority of every resource they had comes from the sea. food, war materials, oil fueling the war effort. the british nation depended heavily on maritime commerce. the idea was the royal navy was blockading many german harbors.
9:39 pm
the u-boats could be used to get out past the blockade and go far afield and sink vessels that were merchant ships carrying supplies. this was very effective. it was somewhat ineffective early on. early on, it was a gentlemanly way of fighting with submarines predominantly. they are a very good offense of weapon but a terrible defensive weapon. the success lies in their stealth and ability to have surprise attacks. when they first heard of the war on commerce, there was a lot of sort ofover it being poking the beast of neutral nations. this is what happened with things like the lusitania. they declared the areas around the british isles were war zones. they would sink vessels not necessarily involved in the conflict but simply carrying
9:40 pm
merchant cargoes to places like the united states, south america, other places not involved. they wanted to try to mitigate the losses. they observed these things called prize rules which had the u-boats firing the proverbial shot across the bow. they would board the vessel, search the papers, look at the manifest. put everybody into the lifeboat and give them a map to get to shore. they would put bombs throughout the ship and sink it. there was little loss of life typically. it is considered to be more formal. that kind of negated the effect of the u-boat. the u-boat would have to paddle over to a large vessel with a small rubber boat. they could be overpowered with small arms and things like this. it was not really that effective . as the war progressed, they began to relax those prize rules
9:41 pm
to where they would slam a tour pedro -- torpedo into the side of the ship emplace mines throughout ports preview see that happening. by the time the u.s. enters the war, the prize rules have largely been relaxed. that is what is generally going on. the basic german metal tactic is to try and cut off shipping and be a nuisance to the royal navy surface fleet. during this time, the united states having this isolationist perspective is on the fence of everything. the germans sent a goodwill mission on a vessel called the doors land, the first ever merchant submarine -- the deutsche land, the first ever merchant submarine. it was a way for the germans to and get awayckade from the royal navy surface
9:42 pm
vessels and be able to carry out some commerce. this was more of a token measure. they were not able to carry enough cargo to really be effective at large scale commerce. it was a way of saying to other neutral nations that they were able to operate as well as saying to the german public we will still get supplies through. we have these things going on. came to theland u.s. in the summer of 1918. it was greeted to fanfare, celebrities. they sailed into the chesapeake bay all the way up to baltimore where they were docked for a number of weeks. this campaign went on trying to win the hearts and minds of america saying you should engage .n commerce with germany i it went over well until november
9:43 pm
of 1916 when another submarine came on another goodwill mission . shortly after it left newport, rhode island, it began sinking ships outside of territorial waters. it ruined its goodwill with the country. in april 1917, the u.s. is involved in the war. u-boatsthereafter, the start to come to the u.s. there is more going on along the east coast i will mention that will focus on north carolina. in particular, u-boats that operated in this region and a couple of vessels we know are lost in that area we hope to find and study as we move forward with our research projects in the field. there were three german u-boats that ended up operating in north carolina.
9:44 pm
this graph here gives you an idea. this is the destruction of vessels along the coast. massachusetts and north carolina and virginia and maryland. massachusetts and north carolina have by far the highest percentage. the difference is off of massachusetts, you have major harbors. but we found in our research north carolina has geographical features that lend itself well to u-boat operations. i will talk more about that. it is a u-boat hotspot for number of reasons. north carolina has one of the largest concentration of losses. both in tonnage and number of vessels. this is a quick map. ofcolleague developed a lot these maps to re-create some of
9:45 pm
these sites. that are the vessels lost off north carolina. these are 10 vessels that in a little over three months were lost off the coast. carolina is arth good area for u-boats to hunt. historically, north carolina has terrible ports. there are very few navigable for large vessels. the closest naval installation is in norfolk. along this area, it is difficult for military vessels to access. you will notice the continental shelf. the different shades of blue are depicting water depth. shelf runs close to cape hatteras. out, the shipsks would have to come past this
9:46 pm
point. this gives you a good concentration of merchant ships did this is where they would to theright to head british. .hey would ride the gulfstream the u-boats would hang out here , this steady thoroughfare for shipping. they also have access to deep water tides. this continental shelf was close enough to the shipping lanes it was an attractive area to operate. they were usually far away from military operations. all the aircraft fields in north carolina are located inside the sound in the barrier islands. the coverage of aircraft was more limited here than anywhere else. these are the vessels that were sunk just off north carolina in world war i. i'm going to talk about a few of
9:47 pm
them. offshore infurther this darker blue area are very difficult for archaeologists to because you drop off the continental shelf and are in several thousand feet of water. it is a much more difficult area for us to work. it requires remotely operated vehicles which jacks the cost of doing operations. the sites i will focus on our in the shallow areas. we expect them to be easier to locate and easier to do work on. u-boats that three operated in north carolina waters. just give you quick background on each of these patrols. this was one of the more that operatedoats
9:48 pm
in u.s. waters. 151 was originally a merchant vessel pretty was later converted to a military vessel. that is why it only has two torpedo tubes. they were added later. it could carry 18 torpedoes. it had a range of 25,000 nautical miles. this is impressive because there was a dip in u-boat technology between world war i and world war ii. for was an impressive range a vessel even in the world war ii era. they had quite a lot of range. most vessels in world war ii were more never intended for transoceanic voyages. this was an impressive vessel. it had a depth of 150 feet, not
9:49 pm
very deep. this vessel was on its war patrols to the u.s. they were filing daily position reports in their war diaries and radioing them back. we are able to reconstruct from the positions given throughout the atlantic where it was at any given point that we have a record for. this is interesting because it allows us to re-create its path through the area. this is just the area off of north carolina. sunk.are the vessels it was quite successful. i think it was the most successful of any vessels lost were operating in this area -- were operating in this area. i will focus on one of the vessels we think has the potential to be discovered. up. was kind of cleaning
9:50 pm
there was no convoy system in place in this area. column, you can see the vast majority of these were using bombs. this is where they would flag down the vessel and go aboard, hore, ande as detonate. some were not as lucky. you can see some where there were torpedo attacks or shellfire. they had larger loss of life. they tried to avoid that when possible. this is a monster u-boat. it was 300 feet long. it was almost 100 feet longer than most of the u-boats operating in world war ii. these were all slightly different types and not quite as standardized. shorter range but still plenty of range to get across the ocean and do damage along the coast.
9:51 pm
it had four torpedo tubes. this was built as a military vessel initially, so it had more armament. this is a reconstruction of its war patrol. it crossed the atlantic. it had more attacks on its way over. we won't focus on those as much as we will on the ones off the coast. thequite as successful as 151, but still quite successful in sinking in damaging vessels. this was a mine-music playing u-boat. this was very successful. it mind part of the chesapeake they. were moreng missions a nuisance operation than one where they thought they would
9:52 pm
have significant success. as soon as there was a perception the ports could be mined, they would complicate the tactics of the ports so it was successful generating that notion of a threat of mines. it would cost more on the part of the u.s. to try and negotiate that threat. this is a big one. almost 300 feet long. you can see the difference. this gap would close as we get into world war ii. these were not quite as able to operate underwater as much as they would later on. they would hide underwater, stationary, and wait for ships to pass. attackuld launch a sneak rather than maneuvering underwater. reconstruction of its
9:53 pm
operation on the coast. it sunk one of the more interesting ones, one of the more interesting stories. .t is yet to be found this gives you a quick idea of the comparative successes of the three u-boats that operated here. the amount of time it lost -- tonnage lost, the technology used, this is a good cross-section of the different u-boat tactics in the area. the first merchant ship we will talk about that with sunk is a british ship that was 380 feet long prayed it was operating south of the virginia line. it started receiving some shellfire. it was torpedoed. to give you an idea of the difference in some of the
9:54 pm
torpedoed,en it was the crew abandoned ship. there was no loss of life. one of the surgeons on board was injured severely. he was taken on board the u-boat that attacked it. they patched him up, gave him a bunch of tobacco and beef jerky and pointed him to shore and said the head that way and you will be all right. they finished it off. there was no loss of life. it was a fairly cordial way to someone'sne -- sink shi." the continental shelf sticks out further in this area. ck should behis wre in 130 to 200 feet of water. it is a manageable area.
9:55 pm
we cannot talk about this without the other ship. this was sung by the 140. this was a spectacular event. it was the only lost the u.s. coast guard had during world war i. it was sailing south from norfolk coming around cape hatteras near diamond shoals when it started getting shelled by the 140, which is an alarming thing to happen to a merchant vessel. you begin the zigzagging maneuver they were taught to avoid the possibility of a torpedo. the idea of running from a sniper. this, itocess of doing came across an area called diamond shoals. although the shells were not doing that much damage, the bottom of the ocean did. it slammed into the shoals and ran aground. it was stuck and still being
9:56 pm
shelled. during the process of this, the lightship built in 1899 was anchored over diamond shoals for the specific purpose of warning ships you could run aground there. it was sitting there. it had a crew of five aboard. it had this huge mushroom anchor . between firing up the boilers and moving the mushroom anchor, it took about five hours to get underway. it was not area efficient. it was considered a stationary vessel. it was relieved by a crew from another vessel. they were close enough that they were able to see it being shelled and harassed by this u-boat. they dutifully started radio in this activityg in
9:57 pm
to call for assistance. unfortunately, the 140 also had a radio and were able to hear this. we said we don't want this happening. it was still hard aground. they started steaming over toward the lightship and began shelling that. had about a five-our process to get underway. they decided it would be better to drop the lifeboats and head for short. they abandon ship. this was sunk by gunfire. after that sunk, the 140 returned and sunk that as well. lastbrings us to the vessel i will talk about lost off north carolina. we are unclear where this is. ,his was a british tanker sunk
9:58 pm
i have it here saying it was sunk by torpedoed. there is speculation about whether it was sunk by torpedo were mine -- or mine. some of the war diaries are confusing as to what vessel was hit by torpedo's were mines -- torpedoes or mines. i would suggest it is more likely it struck a mine given crumminess of -- the torpedoes of the era this story is of interest to the coast guard. it was carrying fuel oil, thousands of gallons immediately spilled into the ocean and burst into flames. there were 52 crewmen aboard. they began immediately to abandon ship. one of the lifeboats turned over into the fire while the others were able to get into the lifeboats. shore,ile a short -- ah
9:59 pm
there was the lifesaving station . the captain of that lifesaving station, they can see this burning off the coast and head out to lend whatever help they can. when they get to the scene, there is so much fire and smoke burning in this area they cannot see much of anything at all. they can hear calls for help. there was an area totally engulfed with flames. they described it as literally walls of flames. created byn alcove this circle of flames with one tiny corridor they could paddle the lifeboat through. these guys paddled in. onir clothes were catching fire as they paddled into rescue these guys.
10:00 pm
guys were coming up shouting and jumping underneath the boat, almost certain no one was hearing them. they pull six guys out of the area and sent them back to shore. they went around the flames and found another lifeboat where the men had been catching on fire. they stripped them. they were able to rescue those men as well. this is a harrowing story of rescue. awarded the gold lifesaving medal. an important heritage for the in conjunction with the diamond shoals life ship. . what we have done, we are trying to look at these areas as part of the landscape.
10:01 pm
this andone more of are getting into it for world wartime -- world war i. different shoals. .estrictions of things we tried to model it. minesfshore -- where the are. we believe this was in the area. strange that no y arenows exactly where the given that they are so close to the shore.
10:02 pm
doing isre planning on looking at where the things are. we started to figure out exactly where these things may be. there was a survey done in 1944 by a coast guard cutter. trying to locate the remains of world war ii vessels. it came across a vessel in the area. claimed -- but based on all the other vessels in the survey, that is not where we were. there are some possibility this could be a search area to look and locate it. we would go out with sonar or in a uver vehicles like -- an auv to identify the remains. then we go with divers.
10:03 pm
another ship will present us with a good opportunity -- we believe this will locate with us -- provide us with a good opportunity to locate the wreck. was aamond shoals stationary asset that was charted. as a result of that, this is the only vessel we know its location. this little blurb. it is the wreck of the vessel. it is a blip on the bottom. the moss of -- the massive mushroom anchor.
10:04 pm
up here there is a think in the the massive is mushroom anchor. know what this is. we have official of that and it be more than 13 miles. we know is down direction from the reports of the crew. it is pretty realistic survey could develop that could find it. givven that we have those positions of the vessel, we can kind of narrow down the area. mow the lawn and try to find it. a sonar. use
10:05 pm
again, the mirlo is another one that we really want to find. is in this ite that area, that many people expect the remains of the mirlo. however, we believe it could be the remains of four world war ii ship. it has an diesel engines on board. the mirlo would've had others. hoping to find it, and that would be a great story.
10:06 pm
guard k with the us coast to manage it, will be going out try and do a o survey. the u151, when it came into us territorial waters. was the first invasionof the united states. this has great significance in national heritage. significant from that for maritime history. a purpose light built ship. is a very rare shipwreck to
10:07 pm
be able to explore. it was i am framed but had a wooden floor. you have basically just a skeletal remains. these are our future efforts. to begin to characterize these more completely, as we have of the other e wrecks. it is a multi-study to look in the remains of the us56. conclusion of that one
10:08 pm
will be able to celebrate those. get people to understand that we do have world war i battlefields here in america, in t could be visited in put some dive gear. [applause] >> questions. >> you have any projects in the gulf of mexico? they have archaeological contingent, they have done some work in the gulf of mexico for the world war ii. about 10 years ago the ship was discovered in the water.
10:09 pm
in the wall one is not so much in the gulf of mexico. proud descendant. i want to ask a question about a bigger ship. tommy they have died to see the big german ship. have you explored that? number of other vessels, vessels like the 117.
10:10 pm
lot of these vessels were used in military testing and bombing. billy mitchell was the individual appraised to the u.s. navy sink battleships using aircraft. a lot of those test demonstrations were done off coast here in virginia. a lot of this in north carolina. there were quite successful. the shipwreck of virginia is it has been ut visited. is 200 to 300 feet of water. they are tricky dives.
10:11 pm
this battlefield archaeology, we're looking at it. looking at other sites the mold one world war ii. some of these noncombat vessels. the merchant marine connection is really sort of the main reason while we're doing it. because the merchant marine story was very underplayed insignificance. they were not given better status for years and years. we want to celebrate the history. and celebrate the contribution of the merchant marine.
10:12 pm
90 feet of in her that boat captain of was killed. tracked down his daughter, she's now in the 80's. we brought her and her grandson to the site. that is the reason why we're doing this stuff. us san diego e navy was one of the bigger ships. is there any attempt to survey that wreck? 40 it is unable hundred and feet of water. not done for
10:13 pm
archaeological. but it is very popular for diving. my research is not done in the north area. -- san diego is deathly definitely a very popular site. spent a great deal of speculation that there were do know on it. do anything more about that? >> the lusitania, there was a lot of backlash as we all know. journals as sunk the started to backpedal. one of the claims to have made
10:14 pm
he was carrying munitions. which has been a point of debate for years. people do ep site, dive it. people who own wreks. who e is an individual filed a complaint about it. >> you spoke earlier about how one of the less publicized parts of the world war i. why do you think that is? >> great question. it is very significant
10:15 pm
need fiscal sites to experience this massively important engagements. -- world n for that is war i it was a much smaller scale. was a bigger scale. is not very hy it known is a couple of things. was a time they concerted effort by the government and immediately downplay it. not so much to cover it up. in world war ii, and for six months he had almost a ship other day on average sunk just off north carolina.
10:16 pm
the fact that that is something do not talk about, was because did not want to introduce panic. to re was a general idea just kind of not talk about that too much, because it was early in the war, we're getting pretty badly beaten in that. it was pretty -- pretty hush-hush. in perspective of moral. i should also say, the position have on german u-boats. we believe that they
10:17 pm
were not technically capable of things that they were, because we thought our u-boats were the best u-boats. the they enlisted that u-boats were operating with quite as much capabilities and there torpedoes were much better. to extend the sanctuary? >> yes. all these other sites and realize how important they are to american history we started to look at, what is there. basis for this study has
10:18 pm
required for everybody to area as in the nationally significant. we have to show that scientifically. what the ding resources are to establish these areas are for protection. some of them were not heavily degraded to be included. we have an advisory council to help us manage the sites. and the n academia general public image to extend the s boundaries and more wrecks in the same region. >> one of the slicing up on the screen. war, the cond world
10:19 pm
operation drumbeat with effort go after us shipping, was there a conservative effort to do the same thing? the second question, what happened to those u-boats that you talked about? do they all three survived the war? >> yes. the u151 went to britain. the other one went to virginia. sure about the 140, it was not sunk during the wall was taking a surprise.
10:20 pm
those rst question, having sanctiones for the german navy. it did was send summering places in south america to develop submarine technology outside of germany. while the war they brought them back and started developing those technologies. the initial effort was to sink capital ships. this success was in sinking merchant ships. focus was immediately on, predominantly on the sinking of vessel ships. believed they could sink
10:21 pm
and negotiate the convoy system. this is where you had those u-boats had centric patrols, instead of attacking call the ly they will radio in. follow along this convoy and the damage that way. >> we have time for one more question. there an environmental reason call or concern over the mercury in the sea. to remove the ry mercury? there was one vessel in
10:22 pm
britain. in us waters, basically mold to sites that do not have mercury. has been some concerns, in the 60's there was a big concern. the tankers awfully carried heating oil and different type of oil. notion that general these vessels sitting on distance of the shore could void these bits of oil to the sea. degradation of those vessels i'm not a big fat at
10:23 pm
>> i want to start with a man woodrow wilson picked to run his navy. picked to be the secretary of the navy? was a newspaper editor. the short answer to how he became secretary of the navy is politics. the longer answer is he had been an important fire at the national -- an important player in the national level in the democratic party. he had played an important role ,n helping wilson get nominated
10:24 pm
and also helping wilson get elected. daniels as an see important political figure and also as a valuable personal aid. he wanted him in the cabinet. in anticipation of there not being a war, 1913 -- who would have anticipated that the country would go to war? -- he wanted daniels to be a political advisor and that's how he ended up in the position. he had no military experience, no naval experience. the only time he was on a ship was when he took the ferry on vacation in the outer banks of north carolina. navyll is the state of the -- what was the state of the navy that daniels took over?
10:25 pm
undergoing was something of a technological revolution at the time. the two most prominent technological changes navies around the world or having to deal with was the big and the introduction of the submarine, the u-boat. it to his admiral to worry about the military side of these new technologies. you was responsible for the organization and the managerial -- he was responsible for the organization in the managerial side. he was the administration's
10:26 pm
point man on raising the money in congress to pay for submarine fleet and a battleship fleet. it was very expensive. an individual battleship would run into the billions of dollars today. the navy was a substantial portion of the total federal budget at the time. the battleships were substantial proportion of the navy budget. getting congress to raise revenues to pay for the ships was important. the navy's organizational chart had not been changed since before the civil war and with electronic indications, daniels felt the navy needed a more vertical organizational chart rather than the flatter structure that it had. he was in the process of
10:27 pm
.eorganizing the navy he also ran into some problems with his admirals in terms of managerial issues, which we can talk about if you feel like we have time. >> we want to get to our callers who are waiting to talk to you. crare talking to lee ig. we will start with steve, calling in from illinois. good morning. >> thank you for taking my call. the navy and its power: and from what i have read -- and its power, and from what i have read, the world war i was the beginning of a conversion from coal to oil.
10:28 pm
whoe are some revisionists would like to claim that if the united states had kept out of world war i, the european war would have ground down to a stalemate. i was wondering if that is possible because of the dependence on oil. how much dependence was the u.s. navy? how much dependence was the british and the germans on oil? oil played a very important role in daniels life. important oil producer and as the ships were being converted from coal to oil , daniels was responsible for
10:29 pm
overseeing the invasion of mexico. it turns out that invasion was not related directly to oil production, but related to the germans running guns into the mexican government. in addition to the u-boats, it was germany's proposed alliance with mexico that led to the u.s. entry in the war in 1917. in terms of what would've happened in europe if the united states had stayed out of the war, that is hard to say. british weree trying to starve the germans with a continental blockade and the germans were trying to starve the british with their u-boat war. daniels and his private
10:30 pm
diaries," where he was talking about the balance between the british blockade and the german u-boat campaign. "the stomach is the test." which side would break first? i would hesitate to answer that. el calling in from missouri. on the ussr was north dakota and i had her stand the north dakota -- and i understand the north dakota was one of the first oil battleships in the navy. it was a gunnery training ship for the atlantic. what else did it do during world war i?
10:31 pm
daniels spent a good bit of his time as secretary of the navy raising funds to build this fleet of battleship. he was responsible for giving two ocean navy. caller,o disappoint our but battleships played almost no .ole the german navy, their surface fleet had been either chased from the sea or sunk by the british by the time the united states entered the war.
10:32 pm
combating thes german u-boats and trying to keep the british and the french in the war and to keep the pressure the u-boats were putting on their populations in terms of food and standard of living to keep them from putting political pressure on the .ritish and the french leaders no battleships played almost military role in the war after the united states entered it. >> we asked our viewers to submit questions via our facebook page. barelythe questions -- two decades after he was secretary of navy, major battles were fought in the pacific i to
10:33 pm
nations that had the basics of our modern aircraft carriers. -- in the pacific by two nations that have the basics of our modern aircraft carriers. >> the british had developed a were a mixturet of a faster cruiser and have begun battleships. they had omitted some of the armor. daniels did not feel those ships had done very well in performance in the first world war. protection was too shallow. the united states, in the building programs he had gotten through congress, which i mentioned earlier, had included
10:34 pm
some of these large battleship type ships that have lighter armor and faster speeds. once he saw those ships were not -- could not stand up to the gunnery from the germans, those were scrapped and they were converted to aircraft carriers. daniels saw the importance of andraft to navy technology started to move the navy toward the construction of aircraft carriers. what happens, though, is the war before the program enters its full force in the 1920's.
10:35 pm
the united states cut back severely on its funding of naval vessels. ,> if viewers have questions questions about the u.s. navy, our phones are open. bernie is up next from new york. >> good morning. i am interested in the transit of the american army from here to europe. what efforts to the navy make to assure the safety, especially from submarines? when the united states entered the war, probably the two primary problems that combating thewas
10:36 pm
transporting the army to the fields in france. , when daniels was asked what he thought the navy's most important contribution was, he said transporting the army. although other members of the cabinet, when they voted for war, did not think the united states would have to put an army -- he field, daniels felt was convinced an army would be required in the field in western europe. when he was asked after the war what he thought navy's greatest contribution to the war was, he said, it was transporting the army.
10:37 pm
i've not been able to independently verify this -- he claimed not a single life of a u.s. servicemen or woman was lost on a navy vessel while being transported to france. view the single most important thing the navy did in getting the army to france. in terms of how they got them over there, with the u-boat menace in the atlantic, it was primarily through con avoiding -- convoying. individual vessels had a better chance of making it across the vessels then groups of in convoy. the admirals were split on this and he voted for the convoy
10:38 pm
system and that was how they were able to get the troops across. they were able to get food and other supplies to the british and the french to keep them in the war. the stomach is the test. keeping them in the war was crucial as getting an army in the field. >> we have about 15 minutes left with lee craig. peter is up next from fredericksburg, virginia. >> good morning. question, what did he do to improve the lot of the life of the everyday sailor? i think he was the secretary thatand the daily rom --
10:39 pm
rash. the daily rum problems, had some managerial problems with his admirals. to a large extent, those conflicts were the product of a in daniels'vision of the navy. navy as als saw the martial organization. daniels saw the navy as primarily a trade school for the enlisted personnel. for theng ground
10:40 pm
morally. in particular, he was not happy with the navy's reputation for being a place where alcohol flowed freely. around the port, prostitution was fairly common. the organization of the navy, he wanted to see it organized as a place where a young man could enter and leave with a trade, a skill, but also a place where he could go and not expose -- not be exposed to the evils of alcohol and prostitution. one of his earliest orders was to ban alcohol from the ships and ports. he also instituted some efforts to clean up the red light districts around the number of the ports. as a result of the ban on
10:41 pm
cooks increased the ration of coffee. they referred to their as aional coffee rations cup of joe. the expression we all know today for a cup of coffee, that was josephus daniels, who banned alcohol from the navy. >> jim in st. paul, minnesota, is next. u.s. may have played for guarding the changing nature of artillery use in world war i? -- her
10:42 pm
>> go ahead. sorry. the viewer has stumped me. i am not a military historian, so i'm not familiar with that issue and would hesitate to comment on it. about histo talk relationship and mentoring of franklin d roosevelt and how that relationship started. daniels thought -- to give the viewers a background -- daniels named a young franklin .. roosevelt as his assistant
10:43 pm
be als thought it would real public relations coup for the administration to bring a --ng fdr and the cabinet into the cabinet. his distant cousin theodore roosevelt was the next president and republican and had just run on the bull moose ticket as an opponent of woodrow wilson. daniels thought this would make the democrats look very good to bring fdr into the administration and named him assistant secretary. diaries,through his when he -- he claimed later that he knew fdr very well and from
10:44 pm
the first time he met fdr, he knew he had "the right stuff" and he had always wanted to bring him into his administration. i found in his diary that -- i think it was a note on his appointment of fdr. he said, i shall appoint frederick d roosevelt as assistant secretary. not knowossible he did him as well as he claims. he did bring in fdr into the navy department and they worked closely together until the end of wilson second administration and fdr prepared to run as vice the 1920 ticket.
10:45 pm
relationship was very complicated. on the one hand, fdr did not demonstrate a lot of respect for daniels at the time. they were culturally different. daniels was a teetotaling southern devout methodist. fdr was none of those things. later on, when fdr became president, he would often refer to daniels when he introduced daniels to his friends and colleagues as someone who taught him everything he needed to know about politics. i think that reflected an older fdr's view that daniels had been a pretty good mentor to him.
10:46 pm
several years they served together in wilson's administration. >> we have time for a few more calls. >> how are you today? thank you for your program. mr. craigrested -- might know something about the explosions that took place in the u.s. san diego. i will hang up and listen to his remarks. that our previous speaker on the program knows about that episode. i will give the short answer -- i do not know the answer to that question. speakerour previous does. but i do not. >> our viewers can watch today's
10:47 pm
symposium as well and check it out online. we can show you at let's go to stephen n stafford, virginia. , what was the secretary's relationship with the united states marine corps? the marine corps is department of the navy. as i recall my marine corps astory way back, did he have special relationship with brigadier butler? daniels, at first, contentious would be the best way to describe his relationship with the marine corps, at least
10:48 pm
through its senior leadership. corps was a more martial organization than the navy. there were a lot more opportunities in the navy for a young man to learn a trade. because this was his primary not seehe really did .uch of a use for the marines in fact, daniels was a near pacifist. thos of attacke thos in battle and their hard drinking reputations cost them
10:49 pm
-- caused him some trouble. invoking theates monroe document -- monroe doctrine, calls on the navy and the marines to keep the germans from encroaching in mexico and establishing a u-boat outpost in haiti and the dominican republic , daniels, who had been critical of u.s. gunboat policy during the previous republican administrations come a becomes a gunboatggressive diplomatist. marines are very useful when it comes time to invade those countries and to put secure governments in power. by secure, he meant to keep the
10:50 pm
germans out during the war. grows -- his appreciation for the marine corps gross. -- grows. with respect to smedley butler, several of the gunboat ,xcursions in the mediterranean in the caribbean, excuse me, central america, were led by butler. eventually, he becomes a commander in france. son enters thet marine corps and is sent to france and serves part of that time on butler staff. >> what lessons to the u.s. navy learn in world war i that they applied in the battle for the atlantic in world war ii? thinghink the primary
10:51 pm
the convoyingas system was a much more effective strategy than the loan ship. ship. lone there was a tremendous amount of argument between the military leaders and the civilian leadership on this issue during the first world war because the argument for sending out the ships, they're easier to find in a convoy. and the convoy could only move as fast as its slowest ship. they underestimated those who were against the system, they
10:52 pm
underestimated in the first and second world war, the ability of the u.s. navy -- the u.s. naval vesselsduce that could accompany the convoy. the sheer volume of the destroyers that primarily guarded the convoy. the sheer numbers of those the economy could generate was underestimated and as it turned out, that was a successful strategy. appreciate you joining us on american history tv. >> thank you veryfacebook, watc. >> american history tv is live
10:53 pm
from the macarthur memorial. joinedhey return, we are by the author of july 1914. i appreciate you joining us. >> thank you for having me. i,a century since world war there continues to be a debate about which nation was responsible for the start of the first world war. take us back to america in 1914. was that debate about who was responsible taking place in the united states? it was not necessarily the most and wharton question in u.s. politics. questionst important in u.s. politics. the main thing was to keep the united states out of the war. if there had been a different
10:54 pm
president, theodore roosevelt might have taken a different line. as a greaterrmans threat for the united states than france, britain, and russia. as far as 1916, woodrow wilson was running the office -- running for office. it did become -- once the question came on the table, what we might call the rendering of the question of war guilt did become a big part of the story. you saw the huge ramp up in the propaganda against the germans. back in 1914, most americans were below third -- or be welded by what was happening -- bewildered by what was happening in europe. said it is like
10:55 pm
militarism runs stark mad. he singled out -- whenever england consents, france and russia will close in on germany. that is how it looked to a u.s. envoy. a few years later, it would look differently. that is more to do with german behavior. time for theok press to ramp up in the denunciation of the germans. most americans were just getting up to speed about what was happening in europe. >> if our viewers have questions, our phone lines are open. with the benefit of 100 years of
10:56 pm
history, where the was signed the blame? do you think history has assigned it correctly? >> i think everyone wants pat answers to this question. the man who authorized -- the head of serbian military intelligence, he wrote down a , back in 1914, he had the green light from the russians and they provided the funds for the assassination.
10:57 pm
could use to one marshal a case for one side or the other. i do assign far more share of the blame to both france and russia, who have gotten off somewhat easily because so many from july 1914s were destroyed. i do not mean to absolve the germans of responsibility. one has to remember that by the time austria-hungary dispatched an ultimatum and declared war on serbia, russia had already begun its military preparations. russia had been secretly
10:58 pm
mobilizing for three days. in the end, the question of intentions, or guilt, one of the great things about this question, it is difficult to resolve it for all parties. historians continue to be fascinated by it because there are no easy answers to this question. you can find evidence to support just about any case. i like to think of balance. some people say that i can more blame on france and russia. i am aiming for a corrective function to get people to think beyond the usual frame of just looking at the germans. not just the germans who brought the war about. >> a few of the books, july
10:59 pm
1914, countdown to work, and the russian origins of the first world war. he is a professor of history. he is joining us for the next 20 minutes or so. let's go to david from rochester, new york. >> nice to talk to you. i have read your books on world war i and i enjoyed reading them. the insight into the ottoman front is very interesting. do you know norman stone and his book on the eastern front in world war i? any kind of influence on your work? >> thank you. very interesting you are calling from rochester. that is my hometown and where i grew up. mormons don't is a good friend of -- norman stone is a good
11:00 pm
friend of mine. fond of saying by now, someone should have come a long and made his book obsolete. no one has quite done that. the eastern front is much less studied than the western front. the only ironic thing about this career, you look at his he has been in turkey since the mid-1990's. turkey does not play much of a role in a book and that is because of the timing of the research and the writing. when he was first researching the eastern front, turkey was not registering.
11:01 pm
it was kind of backwater in the cold war. you did not hear much about turkey. today, things are different. 9/11 has brought us face-to-face with the middle east. if he had the book to write over again today, he would pay more attention to turkey, the caucasian front. these are things he knows a great deal about. it is interesting that they do not factor that much into that study. part of that is just the time in which we live. natural saying for me -- a natural thing for me to turn the lens in that direction. thank you for the question. >> bill from tennessee.
11:02 pm
>> good to see an intellectual on tv. i did have a few questions about woodrow wilson's motivations. telegramthe zimmerman is without the u.s. into the war. the united states -- could germansave allowed the -- is that a realistic prospect? debt the a $14 billion allied countries owe united states. if germany had one, that is the equivalent of $1.4 trillion today. i'll go ahead and hang up, you talk. -- and let you talk.
11:03 pm
>> thank you, bill. those are great questions. you raise some fascinating points. 1970 -- and 19 17, united states had a vested interest so they could pay back all of these debts. i think the woodrow wilson administration was on the fence. his own policies would be to go in, but it'd have to think about public opinion and congress. the wilson administration, it was complicated further that wilson had run for reelection in 1916 largely on this platform of
11:04 pm
having kept the u.s. out of war. he was hamstrung by political rhetoric. no groundswell of public support for intervention. the telegram later decisive lone. but this is not a loa , thisrompted the telegram offer that is mexico could help -- mexico was in the middle of its own revolution. if the u.s. could get embroiled there, mexico would have the chance of regaining some territories lost in the 1840's, including arizona, new mexico, and possibly parts of california. the germans had unleashed unrestricted submarine warfare.
11:05 pm
no more warnings when they were going to fire torpedoes and drop bombs. they knew that my -- that might enrage american opinion. the germans sent the telegram. in the end, it is furnished the final part of the case. it did allow the final argument that wilson was able to present to congress. >> we are taking questions from our facebook page as well. how could the war have been avoided? anyway it could have been stopped once it started? >> before it started, i think it could have been stopped. this would have required very different statement ship -- statesmanship. many states were trying to bring it about or exacerbate tensions.
11:06 pm
ofent the assassination ferdinand, i don't think the first world war would have broken out. there might've been a third balkan war, raking up between turkey and greece. you could pick various moments in the course of july 1914, have the austrians behaved more , had serbia accepted the ultimatum, all kinds of what-ifs in july that would've led to a different scenario. once the war broke out, you are getting into military history. scenarios of the germans
11:07 pm
to have won a decisive victory. had the coalition's laid out differently, many scenarios which would've led to a different outcome. once the war had begun, hostilities had been unleashed, by that point, i don't think the work could have been prevented. >> several callers waiting to chat with you. gene is in height so, maryland. yattsville, maryland. >> i am glad c-span is having you waon the show. much of what i know about world war i -- i wonder if you could comment on your feelings about her take on world war i and its
11:08 pm
causes and so on. i would appreciate that. >> thank you. that is a great question. i am quite fond of barbara's books and i have been heavily influenced by them. it would be remiss of me to bash barbara because that book has inspired me to write at least three of my own books. they're awesome -- there are some problems with "the guns of august." she is not looking at the balkans at all. she will not cover austria-hungary and serbia. she has a reason for this. she said it would complicate the story. it is a complicated story and
11:09 pm
you can see why she left it out. she left out the entire july crisis. you will notice she devotes only one line to sarajevo and one paragraph to the entirety of the july crisis. her book is really not about the outbreak of the first world war in terms of the diplomatic narrative and the drama between the european capitals in july. she picks up august 1. she gets one major date wrong. she says this is the night when the french government are working up in the middle of the night by the russians who had been given the sultanate of by -- given us ultimatum by the germans. she misstated this by today's. it took place on wednesday. what prompted it was a message
11:10 pm
from st. petersburg to his ambassador in paris. exceed twoability to germany's desire, we must regard war as imminent. complicating to an extreme degree the argument that she is trying to present. what is ironic about this, and i say this with respect because she is someone whose work i admire, elsewhere she wrote eloquently about the importance of chronology and getting the facts straight. in this case, she did not. in some of her other books, she did a much better job. >> jeff is on. >> professor, thank you for
11:11 pm
writing your recent book. i look forward to reading it. another what-if scenario to ask you, if the germans would've captured paris, do you think france would have sued for peace? how do you think that would've affected the other allies? jeff, for a great question. -- this isecessarily one of the great questions of the war. inecisive german victory 1914. the youngerhat chief of the german staff made several questionable decisions
11:12 pm
in the lead up to the war when he was altering the original design. initially, for strategic reasons, he weakened the right wing. he did not want german troops to violate dutch neutrality. down. slow them corpso pulled back two from the right wing of the dancing german -- the advancing german army from the eastern front. he peeled off half of the german troops on the left wing. apparently, he was tempted -- double enveloping the french.
11:13 pm
pinpointou're right to serious consequences. i do not know exactly what they would have been. how the french armies been enveloped, defeated, most of the men taken prisoner -- yes, france would've had to sue for peace. i do not think britain would've made peace right away. one should remember the russians were still quite strong in the eastern front. they were able to reinstate prussia a month after that. it is entirely possible that the war would have continued. the germans would've been in a strong position. possibly, it they would've had to sue for peace in a matter of
11:14 pm
months. war,sonably short decisive, violence, but over within several months. had that happened, it would've been difficult to arrange a lasting peace settlement, but not impossible. the world would've been a more peaceful and orderly place. >> we have time for one or two more calls before the symposium resumes. we can see audience members starting to trickle in. >> i was wondering why you don't put more blame upon the germans for the war in the western front when the germans were preparing for war for about a dozen years and using a pretext to invade france. the germans would require more blame than the french.
11:15 pm
>> thank you for the question, marvin. you are absolutely right. the problem with many accounts of the outbreak of the first world want is focused only on one power. france and russia signed a military alliance targeting germany. the terms stipulated that france and russia were to invade german territory. france invaded german territory on mobilization day plus 15. it is earlier than the germans reach french territory. the germans marched through belgium on the way. as far as claiming the germans land to invade france, of course that is true.
11:16 pm
russia plan to invade germany as well. a simultaneous invasion of germany from two directions. it was because of this the germans have their own plans, to try to circumvent this. as far as the military alliances, the more decisive alliance was the franco russian alliance, which is why when the colonelisited -- the said precisely that. that is what did happen in 1914. england consented. germany launched an invasion of france by way of belgium. >> just two or three minutes left.
11:17 pm
jimmy has been waiting in georgia. >> marvin asked the question i was going to ask. are you familiar with the decline of bismarck? it is funny, i have not read that book. say i havessed to not read that title. i will take your tip and check it out of the library. >> what is on your bookshelf now? now, i am finishing up a book. i have a whole room of books on my shelf, many of them pertaining to the war of the 1920's following the first world war. the syrian palestine
11:18 pm
mesopotamian fronts in the first world war. i am focusing on the first world war in the middle east and the consequences of the collapse of the ottoman empire. we appreciate you joining us on american history tv. >> thank you.very leefirst speaker today is craig. statea graduate of ball university. best phd dissertation and economic history. he has been ubiquitous in his efforts. essays, supervising dissertations, and presenting papers. he is the author of 24 articles
11:19 pm
and essays and six books, mostly economic histories and population studies. was published by north carolina university press. it examined the life of the 41st secretary of the navy. they knows decision helped prepare the u.s. for its involvement in world war i. will share with us his research from his most recent book. welcoming dr. in lee craig. >> as he informed you during the introduction, i am a college professor. we are scheduled to do q&a at
11:20 pm
the end of my presentation. i always know, as a professor, what the first question will be and what the answer to that is. answer is yes. the question is, will this material be on the final exam? [laughter] yes. it will be on the final exam. is potentially material for the final exam. i expect to see a lot of notetaking during the talk. about josephuss and his role as secretary of the navy during the first world war. while you were enjoying lunch, i was being interviewed on c-span. the first question that i got would josephus daniels,
11:21 pm
a small town newspaper editor, be secretary of the navy during the first world war? the short answer to that is politics. , the longer answer is, a very important player in the democratic party at both the national and state and regional level. he was a member of the democratic national committee for 20 years by the time the 1912 presidential election rolled around. he was a newspaper publisher and arguably one of the most important democratic voices in the south. is what put him on wilson's radar screen initially.
11:22 pm
rolehe played an important in getting wilson nominated. then he played an important role in getting him elected. wilson came to appreciate for his political wisdom, his connections, and power. daniels to be in the cabinet as a political advisor. .ou say, ok you persuaded us why he would want daniels in the cabinet, but why the navy? why not? be a big not going to war in the spring of 1913, right? ran the army or the navy? from wilson's perspective, he wanted a politically connected and wise advisor. well, it turns out daniels had
11:23 pm
no military background whatsoever. tell, the only time he was on a naval vessel in his life was when he took a to the outer banks of north carolina for vacation. he had no military background or preparation for the job. he was not just a political hack. ,e was a successful businessman was a self-made man and had made a fortune. this is how i came to study success as a his capitalist, rather .han as a military leader an economic historian wrote his biography rather than a military historian. theought i would organize
11:24 pm
about his time in wilson's administration during the war specifically in three parts. we will talk about before the war, leading up to the war as one part, then the war itself. the immediate aftermath. with respect to what was going before the war, i think one of the most important aspects of his management was integrating the new military technologies of the big battleship and the dreadnoughts, as they were referred to at the time, and the submarine, the u-boats. -- the u-boats, into the navy. the martial side of that, the
11:25 pm
strategic side of that, he left to his admirals. managerial and organizational side that he was responsible for, at least partly. one of the most important things he did was he got congress -- he was the administration's point person on getting congress to pay for those new technologies. dollars, a single dreadnought would run into the billions of dollars. navy was a substantial proportion of the overall federal budget at that time, much larger than it is today. substantialips were -- were a substantial proportion of the navy's budget. just getting the funding lined up and the naval spending and building program was an
11:26 pm
important task. also, he faced some organizational and managerial issues. with respect to the organization of the navy, when daniel took over in the spring of 1913, the , to put itnal chart in business terms, had not really been changed since before the civil war. with the electronic communications, daniels wanted to see the organizational chart move from what you might think to a a flat chart horizontal chart, to a more vertical chart. movend and control could up and down the line more directly with the communication technologies that had been improved since before the civil war.
11:27 pm
had some managerial issues with his admirals. that was partly related to navy.'s vision of the daniels was about as close to a pacifist as the leader of a military organization could be. he, unlike his admirals, who saw the navy fairly clearly in martial terms, daniels saw the tool --a big vocational school. he thought it was a place where young men could enter and learn a trade, and then leave with a skill for the private sector. in addition, he focused heavily on the moral improvement of the young men who entered the navy. specifically, he thought that they should come into the navy and leave the navy without ever having consumed alcohol.
11:28 pm
and also without ever visiting a house of prostitution in a navy port. so, he spent a good bit of time and effort cleaning up the red portsdistricts around the . he also banned alcohol from the ships and basis. -- bases. it is from that that we get the expression "cup of joe." when he banned alcohol, there was an increase in the coffee rations. would somewhat angrily referred to it as a cup of josephus daniels. it was eventually shortened to "cup of joe." with theese conflicts leadership of the navy. more or less
11:29 pm
throughout his tenure as secretary. , initially, of course, when war begins, the united states is not a combatant , but daniels, who as a newspaper publisher, had been very critical of the republican administration that had preceded wilson's administration, in particular, he had been critical of the gunboat diplomacy and u.s. imperialism more generally. he actually becomes an aggressive, lb at reluctant, gunboat diplomacy this -- aggressive, albeit reluctant, gunboat diplomat. with respect to the invasion of
11:30 pm
mexico, that is a direct , whonse to the germans were running guns to one side during the mexican revolution. enforcing the monroe doctrine. it became an important part of navy policy. the u.s. invades. later, with respect to haiti and the dominican republic, the foron that was given invading those countries, or at least the reason the navy department gave for invading those countries, was to keep german influence and u-boats from being established in those countries. referred to, again, not favorably, by the end of his administration as king josephus , andirst, ruler of haiti
11:31 pm
sometimes referred to as the king of the dominican republic, because it is basically the navy and the marine corps that are running those countries during daniels' administration. he gets involved, again, rather reluctantly, in these gunboat excursions in the caribbean and central america. another aspect of the administration's policies with respect to the war before the united states enters the war is theformal policy of administration, which is neutrality. supporters a staunch of the administration's
11:32 pm
neutrality policy as it was announced. he and wilson had a great deal of conflict over how the policy was actually carried out. view,, in daniels' favored the british. arguably, that may have been the more popular political position in the country more broadly. position.ot daniels' moraler made a distinction between the british and the french on the one hand and the germans on the other. to the violations of international law, which so the other members of
11:33 pm
the administration and the , i am, particularly referring here to the waging of the u-boat war by the germans in thought toc, daniels that the british, with their blockading policy and mine-laying policies in the north sea, and their stopping of neutral vessels and interning them, he thought those violations were just as egregious as the germans' v iolations of international law when they were waging the u-boat war. his personal views were of a much more stricter neutrality than what he felt the administration was engaged in in practice. this, as i mentioned, led to a bit of a rupture in his
11:34 pm
relationship with wilson. eventually, of course, the germanygoes to war with , and then all of his reservations about violations of international law go out the window. he starts engaging in all of the practices that he had criticized the british for before the u.s. joined the team, so to speak. the most prominent of which was setting up a minefield between scotland and norway. basically, sealing off the north sea so the german u-boats could not escape out into the atlantic.
11:35 pm
so, when the country, the united states, enters the war, then, in 1917, daniels is basically majoronted with two problems. one of those is, of course, the u-boats in the atlantic, and the other is transporting the army to the battlefields in france. and so, with respect to combating the u-boats, the british were, of course, blockading the continent and stopping just about anything from getting in or out. turn,he germans were, in british andt the the french public to put pressure on their governments to offfor peace by cutting
11:36 pm
their aid from the rest of the the unitedarticular states, with the u-boats in the atlantic. ese problems of getting, addressing the u-boat menace and getting food and supplies to the british and the french, and getting troops to , they are two sides of the same coin. it is basically controlling the sea lanes in the atlantic. primary -- the primary manner in which daniels has the navy do this is through the convoy system. previously, the british had favored sending lone ships out. when you putt was
11:37 pm
ships and a convoy, what you do is, first of all, you make a larger target. second of all, the convoy can only move as fast as its slowest member. so, essentially, if you use the metaphor of predators on the you are justica, creating large, slow creatures to be eaten. was, i think what underestimated there was the ability of the u.s. economy to generate escort vessels and to just, the sheer number of ships that the u.s. could bring very quickly to the equation to get the convoys safely across the atlantic. the same with the troop transports. askedthe war, daniels is
11:38 pm
what he thought the navy's largest contribution to the war was, and he said it was transporting the army into the field to defeat the germans in france. was the last member of theon's administration of to vote for war in the spring -- wilson's administration, of the cabinet, to vote for war in the spring. one of the reasons why he waited so long before he would finally vote for war was because he felt it would take an indoor miss and -- an enormous army, casualties as a result of that, to defeat the germans in the field. most of the other cabinet members did not agree with this. they thought the united states
11:39 pm
would just supply material aid menace, andu-boat that would be enough. daniels said, no, we are going to need an army. he thought one of the most important things the navy did was to get that army into the field. he claimed, now, in my research, i was not able to verify this, but he claimed that no u.s. serviceman or woman lost their life on a u.s. navy vessel while being transported to france. if that is true, that would be a .remendous accomplishment in any case, he did get the army over there. was eventually brought to a conclusion. the post-wart up
11:40 pm
settlements. daniels played an important role in the post-war settlements in two respects. he joined wilson in the late winter, early spring of 1919 while the various peace treaties that were being designed to wrap wilson usedso daniels as a kind of roving advisor. sent him to the various places in europe where t boundaries of the new nationstates were going to be carved.
11:41 pm
these happened to be italy and germany. where the involved boundary settlements between the yugoslavand the new republic on the one hand, and then the other issue was between germany and poland, and the so-called danzig corridor or on the other hand -- corridor on the other hand. wilson sends daniels out. daniels comes back and he gives his report. go withrt is, if you the british and the french who were advising a more generous yugoslavs for the relative to the italians, and
11:42 pm
advising a more generous esttlement for the pol relative to the germans, if you listen to this advice, you are going to have trouble in the future. wilson did not listen to that advice. it is not clear that if he had listened that he could have done anything differently that would have prevented the rise of ,ascism in italy and germany twocertainly, the way that boundaries was ultimately settled it did not contribute to the establishment and maintenance of peace after the war. now, the story that we're told as, wilson made to therial concessions
11:43 pm
extent he cared about these issues in order to secure the , thesion in the treaties first of the major treaties, the versailles treaty, of the league of nations. nboardlly, daniels was on with supporting the league of nations. the discussion surrounded collective security, that the problems that led to the first world war were these one-off treaties between countries that that came into conflict. what we really needed was a collective security and the league would guarantee that. initially,said, daniels was supportive of that view because he was persuaded
11:44 pm
that that would have kept the in particular from being so aggressive. he thought that if there was a thought theact, he league would be necessary if the territorial settlements that were on the table, again, just for example, the ones that he was involved in, italy and those, the proposed territorial settlements, were in fact the ones that came about after the war -- after the treaties were signed, which they did, that there would be trouble with the italians and the , andns, which there was that we would need the joint military forces, again, the expression "collective
11:45 pm
security," of the league, in order to keep them in their respective places. now, in a relatively short period of time, his view of this changes almost 180 degrees. even though he continues to voice in public support for wilson and the league, he begins to have reservations in private. in particular, these reservations come from the second issue. i mentioned there were two. one was the territorial settlements that he was advising wilson on at the peace conferences in the spring of 1919. the other was the post-war naval arrangements. and so, it's part of the
11:46 pm
post-war naval arrangements that that leadsa party to him to begin to question wilson's strategy with respect to the future of the league of nations and the series of --aties that are ultimately wrap up the war. gets involved with negotiating with the british over the relative naval power after the war. the problem is that a lot of saw the naval arms race between the germans and the british as a key component leading to the onset of the war. and so, you know, there are
11:47 pm
political voices that are saying, how can we avoid a repeat of this problem? who, when he first took over the navy, basically saw it as a egg trade school -- as a big trade school for enlisted men and a place for moral uplift where young men could go and hide from the temptations of alcohol and wayward women for a few years during late adolescence and early adulthood, after entering the administration with that view, after fighting the war, he realizes that he had exactly the watchingw, that during the early years of the british drivethe the germans -- after the germans had put all of this money, all
11:48 pm
of this treasure and these public resources into building the second-largest navy in the world, the second-most artful navy in the world, he realizes, having the second-most powerful navy in the world does not do you much good if you go to war with the country that has the most powerful navy in the world. almost he really flips 180 degrees in his view of the navy. he realizes what the united states needs is not a good trade school, but what it needs is the world's largest, unambiguously, the most powerful navy. although the u.s. had ships in the pacific before, this is where the expression the
11:49 pm
"two-ocean navy" comes from. navy-building program that will basically give you the largest navy in the world split between the atlantic and the pacific. and partly, this stems from what i was talking about earlier with respect to his views of the germans and the british. the germans always thought the american administration and the american public work pro-british, and arguably, they were. but again, daniels was not. to prepare for the next war against the british as he was to prepare for the next war against the germans or the japanese, or whomever that might be. so, after he advises wilson on
11:50 pm
the danzig and polish question, and after he advises wilson on the yugoslav-italian question, which wilson did not take his advice, daniels is off to london to negotiate with the british. now, you may say, what was there to negotiate? well, again, the political powers thatf the had engaged in war had come to the conclusion that, you know what? in ourt a lot of money naval arms races and we got a lot of people killed. these post-warf discussions, treaties, settlements and so forth, maybe we could come up with a better way of organizing our military relations
11:51 pm
so that if nothing else, at least it might be a little cheaper. it might save us a little money. so, they are talking about the post-war naval arms settlement relationship, which basically meant reduction. so, the british umpire -- empire ad financially been driven to the brink by the war. perpetuation the navy wasrld's largest going to be a cost that the british politicians were going to have a difficult time selling to the british taxpayers. daniels recognizes this. so, he goes, does a tour of all
11:52 pm
the political people who he's in england.see spend some time with the king. in aup in parliament late-night meeting with the secretary of state for war at that time, the equivalent of our defense minister -- our secretary of defense today, winston churchill. book, i described the scene as churchill and daniels discussing the post-war naval ,reaties over brandy and cigars all of which were consumed by churchill. [laughter] daniels neither drank nor smoke. their relationship was not a warm one.
11:53 pm
it is not one that they perpetuated. that the told daniels british had to maintain, because thehe nature of its empire, british had to maintain the largest navy in the world. daniels told churchill that because of what he had learned, he, daniels, had learned during the first world war, that the united states had to have the world's largest, most powerful navy. and so, churchill said, well, ok. own putting this in my words. i am not as eloquent as churchill. i am paraphrasing for you here. churchill says, ok. go ahead. daniels says, ok, we will, suspecting rightly that the british will not be able to antinue to fund
11:54 pm
naval-building program at the same rate that the united states could fund a building program. one of the reasons being was because the british gold reserves were now resting in the united states because, basically, the british had been paying the united states to help keep them in the war before the united states entered the war. daniels and churchill have this long back-and-forth. they walk away with no agreement. paris,iels goes back to tells wilson, we tried to settle this. we couldn't. we just need to stick with our naval-building program, which, in a few years, assuming the british did not up their naval-building program, which daniels did not think that they could do politically or financially, would ultimately
11:55 pm
give the united states its t wo-ocean navy and the largest navy in the world. so, he goes back to the united states. this is 1919. it turns out that the republicans had taken control of elections.s, midterm by the time -- he had tried before he went to france in late winter, early spring, he had tried to get the lame-duck session of congress, which was still controlled by the democrats, to fund the next installment of the building program. they dragged their feet. the war was ending. they did not want to commit to the amount of money daniels was
11:56 pm
asking for. and so, the issue is rolled over into the next congress and the republicans, after this torturous set of negotiations in london, congress will not fund the naval-building program. and so, it becomes the harding administration's problem to following the 1920 election. now, another question that i received related to the 1920 earlier in the ,nterview that i did on c-span the question came up of what role did franklin -- franklin
11:57 pm
delano roosevelt play in daniels' tenure as secretary of the navy? i will start at the end of that and work backwards. the end came before the 1920 election because fdr was the democratic party's nominee for vice president. campaign, heder to the administration. he had initially been brought into the administration by josephus daniels. fdr as his named assistant secretary. how manyn't know assistant and under-secretaries --re are today of positions positions, but from
11:58 pm
what i read in the newspaper and there is a fairly large number. in those days, you had one. after the election, the initial wilson election in the fall of 1912, he thinks, oh, wouldn't it be a nice political, public if we couldup secondnto the only democratic administrations since before the civil war, remember the others were grover cleveland , those of you who are old enough, and i won't make eye contact with any of you, but you remember we used to have to memorize the presidents? war, they alll
11:59 pm
had the same beard and looked alike. the one in that group who was different, the outlier, was grover cleveland. he had two nonconsecutive terms as president and he was the only democrat between buchanan, before lincoln, and wilson, which was one of the reasons why of the was so supportive politician wilson. it was because he was a winner. after losing three times with brian, who was a close friend of daniels in college, he thought that wilson was the way to go. one of those republicans was theodore roosevelt. theodore roosevelt may or may not have been a good president, depending on your perspective, but he was a very bad ex-president. he was not constitutionally suited to be an ex-president.
12:00 am
he had run, being rejected by the elders of the republican party, as a candidate against wilson in 1912. he ran as an independent candidate. so, daniels thought that it would really make the administration look good from the beginning to bring a roosevelt into a democratic administration. , hein his correspondence was describing later, actually, in his correspondence later in life, he described how he had this vision of this young man and that he so well had identified as having "the to bring him into the administration as his assistant secretary, but in going over daniels' primary
12:01 am
sources, his diary, a letter to his wife, he said to his wife, i shall bring frederick d roosevelt into my department as assistant secretary. so, it is possible that he did not know frederick roosevelt as .ell as he claimed years later he brought roosevelt into the administration. it was only -- they served very closely together throughout wilson's two administrations until fdr left the navy department right at the end of as itcond administration,
12:02 am
turns out, when things went really badly after the s take power and then the league of nations runs into a lot of trouble. with respect to the navy, there are actually some -- when the republicans get control, they conduct some investigations into the waging of the war and the navy is subjected to some investigationul havior inrines' be haiti and the dominican republic, and also daniels management with respect to planning for the war, and so forth. fdr, like a lot of very successful politicians, knows
12:03 am
when to leave a troubled ship. so, he went his own way politically and daniels went his way. the ken burns recent documentary, series about the roosevelt's, daniels was not presented very favorably in the episode on the first world war. his troubled relationship with fdr was highlighted. they did have one side of their relationship troubled. there was a lot of cultural anderence between the two fdr was not a particularly loyal assistant secretary. he was one of the more bellicose
12:04 am
,oices in the administration looking to take an advocating and more aggressive position toward the germans. but, that was only one side of the relationship. later in life, fdr would often introduce daniels, who ultimately became fdr's ambassador to mexico during the 1930's and the second world war, that was only one side of their relationship. later on, when fdr would introduce daniels to his friends and political colleagues, he would introduce him as the man who taught him a lot that he needed to know, that was fdr's expression, about politics. he recognized daniels had been a pretty good political mentor before him in washington. wrapping up the wilson administration with fdr's
12:05 am
entry as a vice presidential candidate into the 1920 campaign would be a good place for me to stop. i think we will take q&a now. thank you very much. [applause] >> all right. keep your hands up. >> from the picture you paint of daniels, basically secretary of reluctant warrior. he grows into the position. could you describe the situation he had in terms of the mining operation in the north sea? haguethey have the convention. there was neutrality with norway. that was a violation. also, could you do a little bit
12:06 am
about daniels and his management style in terms of how he led? did he delegate more or was he hands-on? >> let me start with the second question first. i think if we could bring some of his senior admirals back from themead, and we would ask that question, i think they would say that he was all too hands-on. i think if we could bring josephus daniels back from the dead, and ask him that question, he would say, yes, i was hands-on, but only on the things that i thought i should be hands-on on. that he felt like he never interfered with his admirals when it came to the execution of orders, tactics, strategy. he was not an armchair admiral. he confessed he knew nothing about strategy or so forth, but
12:07 am
he thought to the issues with theect to the management of seamen themselves, he thought caste-driventoo and the separation between officers and men socially, culturally, was too great. and so, he wanted the navy to be , the expression is a leveling organization, but i think he wanted it to be more of a raising, not to level the officers, but to raise the men up. i think in that respect, i don't think he was ever troubled by the criticism that he received from his admirals about meddling of the navyre because i think he would admit that he did not think that
12:08 am
andure was a good productive one. with the respect to mining operations, the first question, one of the problems that the british had -- the british had no trouble violating international law. they had basically turned the north sea into one big minefield, which was a clear violation of these earlier agreements. they had no philosophical objections to putting mines across the barrier to norway. it was the maintenance and the actual technology of the mines themselves. historian,military so i don't know all the details, but they come up with a better mine. so, you know, that is part of it. the second part of it is just political expediency. daniels was against reddish
12:09 am
violations of international law when we were neutral, the u.s. was neutral, and it was the brits versus the germans. once it is the u.s. and the brits versus the germans, well, international law did not mean as much to him as it did when he was the neutral. craig, would you say that armchair not an admiral, not a military background, but he was a publisher. did he stay aloof from the operations? these newspapers at the time did he was secretary -- sometimes kind of distance himself a little bit from chicago when he became navy secretary? i don't know much about daniels' tenure and if editorial policy changed with, kind of, in a way,
12:10 am
inng with daniels' change his own views about our participation in the war effort. >> that is an interesting question and one i actually addressed in the book. the short answer is no. he did not separate himself from the management of his newspaper. he tried initially, but he could not -- just as teddy roosevelt held not not be president, could not stop being president, daniels could not stop controlling the opinion side of his newspapers. did. just what he so, he continued to control the editorial policy of the newspaper. in terms of the day to day management, he left a couple of people in charge, one of whom was his brother-in-law.
12:11 am
have ever runho family businesses know that is a bad idea. i have not run a family business, but i learned that that was a bad idea. his brother-in-law caused a good bit of trouble both professionally and within the family. for one thing, before the u.s. entered the war, and daniels' oldest son joined the marine at that time, he was in his early 20's, he had left him eigh at the newspaper in ral as kind of part of his apprenticeship. well, it turns out that the sun and the brother-in-law -- the son and the brother-in-law did not get along very well and there was a lot of trouble there. ,his put daniels and his wife who was the sister of the brother-in-law in charge back in raleigh, it put them in
12:12 am
conflict. so, the mother, daniels' wife, brotherr son over her and basically told josephus to get rid of my brother. they ship him off. arranges for him to become a newspaper man at a newspaper in texas. personale some scandals involved. i will leave it at that. this is a public show. those of you -- i hope i have whetted your appetite to buy the book, to read the scandalous parts of the biography. but basically, he did not stop running it. he tried. he was not well suited to do it. he couldof opinion, not give up that control and then he kept getting dragged
12:13 am
back in because of these managerial issues with his family. >> in your research, did you happen to find out why daniels did not take advantage of the money that was available from togress in 1915 and 1916 for hish a base here battleships and our large aircraft that could not tie up alongside of a dock? >> i don't know that the answer to that specific question, but i have a hypothesis based on other that -- material that i found during the research. used the budget
12:14 am
that he was granted by congress to often achieve political objectives. i know you are shocked, right, that gambling is going on in rick's in casablanca. you are shocked that a politician would do that. it would not surprise me that maybe there was conflict with state or local politicians or centimeters -- senators at the time that caused him to hold back money or to steer money in another direction, or what have you. i can give you two examples of where he did this. contractsth releasing for navy supplies and another was, you may recall a little while ago i spoke about cleaning up red light districts, if the
12:15 am
aidl politicians would not in that effort, daniels would go to the congressional representatives and the governors and would threaten to withhold money from those port not do what heid wanted to do with respect to cleaning up red light districts. that is just a couple of use it. of how he would it would not surprise me. i can't recall exactly that issue, but it would not surprise me if that was the issue involved there. i will cut off there. >> would you touch on daniels' ,nlisting of female personnel and what was his relationship to secretary baker?
12:16 am
>> yes. it is interesting. i was invited, because he had essentially created -- daniels essentially created the role of women in the navy. it was the 100th anniversary of his order establishing roles for andn in the navy last year i was invited to speak at the navy memorial and washington, d.c. in commemoration of that event. for those of you who don't know, it is just a couple blocks off the mall. as i left my hotel to go to give my talk, there were hundreds of thousands of people outside. i thought, not accustomed to magnitude, myhis students back in raleigh would be shocked that anyone who was
12:17 am
not forced to take this course would listen to this guy, well, it turns out that when i went into my room, there was only the staff because it was the day the president was speaking in commemoration of the anniversary of the march on washington, martin luther king's "i haev a d -- "i have a dream" speech. i gave that talk. daniels, for those of you who are familiar with daniels' back ground, he was in a tory is racist and was one of the leaders of the white supremacy movement. it is always shocking for people that the individual who was as important as any other single individual in the country in the disenchanting --
12:18 am
disenfranchisement movement at the turn-of-the-century, that he was also a, what we would say today was a staunch supporter of feminism. country's of the leading advocates, and by leading, i mean someone with political power and a voice as a , forng newspaper publisher women's suffrage. pushing thewas administration toward the amendment for women's suffrage, but he also created the roles for women in the navy and the marine corps. did you have a follow-up? >> baker? >> he and baker had a very good relationship.
12:19 am
a working relationship. they had a good working relationship, once were came. bellicose sign in moving the administration towards warthen daniels had been. -- more than daniels had been. but worked well together, they had conflicts in terms of the run-up to the war with daniels being in the peace camp, and maker outside of it. daniels was probably the loudest voice in the east camp. the -- the peace camp. no one else in the admin's nation was going to get along with him on this front, because he voted against war until the very last moment. thank you.
12:20 am
[applause] >> our second speaker is nimrod frazier. he is the sound of a world war i veteran who served in company e one 67th of a treat. -- infantry. this is the division in which douglas macarthur will serve chief of staff and brigade commander during the american offenses of world war i. frazier's father received a purple heart for wounds received at the battle. mr. frazer himself as a silver star veteran of the korean war, businessof harvard school, and a member of the alabama business hall of fame. author of a history of the 167th infantry regiment.
12:21 am
mr. frazer also serves as treasurer of the board of directors of that foundation. he will share some of his research from his unit history in his talk. welcomingn me in nimrod frazier. [applause] >> thank you. it is a great honor for me to be back at this wonderful place. i'm not an academic. i could better be described as a
12:22 am
child of the rainbow division. theew the name of commanding officer of the 106 to heventh infantry -- 167t infantry before i could read. i knew the name of the commander of d company before i could read. my family was divided in later life, but the common ground that i had with my father, who was a very cop located guy. -- complicated guy. was his best friend who was indeed come but a within. -- in d company with him. his friend blew his brains out in 1937. i like to think of him as willie regimentof the rainbow from alabama.
12:23 am
the military was always the common bond with my old man. i would go down to visit him, the one thing we were both comfortable in dealing with was his military service, and then later, with mine. before i get serious year, i must tell you that when i returned from korea, i thought that i might have done the best job i could do there. i smelled a little gunpowder. and i sat down with will. you'd written me one letter while i was there, it was the only letter i got from him in my whole life. word wasleft, every caution. be careful. get behind a log. , he wantedame back to know when i have been doing. and i told him i had been in , and i did thes
12:24 am
best job i could do. and i have to tell you, he was underwhelmed. alabama was in four campaigns. if you want to cap the sudan, it was in seven operations. -- count the sudan, it was in seven operations. we were both there about 10 months. bottom line -- he did twice in 10 months what i had done in my 10 months. 1916, the montgomery advertiser reported the mobilization and federalization of the alabama national guard.
12:25 am
with origins as a social militia, the units were made available to the governor when four part-time regimens were authorized by the alabama legislature. that's the date i mark is the beginning of the training 167th of the -- training of the 167th infantry. his orders came from the war department. after entering full-time service at montgomery's panama park, the racetrack, they don't longer were answerable to the governor. the alabama national guard had become more professional between 1911 to 1915. a full-time regular
12:26 am
army captain was assigned a supervisor of training. let's see what we are going to get here. we got to get this right. yes, yes yes. i got it. that's the way want to be. that's bill screws. graduated the local high school in montgomery alabama,
12:27 am
was sent to marion military institute for one year. made the honor roll one time, that was the extent of his college. alabamafied for volunteer regimens commission come at the time of the spanish-american war. he served briefly in the spanish-american war, but brushed up against the regular army there. so much so that he liked it. the regular army was then committed to the adventure in the philippines. screws a job to go out there as a lieutenant, and work against the insurgent morose. , and i down to mindanao retraced his steps down there. driver, and ind a said i want to go right back into that lake district where these guys were doing all the early fighting.
12:28 am
all the senior guys in world war teethcut 13 -- they are in the philippines. my drivers that are not going to go any further, it's dangerous. i can tell you they are still raising hell. the same ones. screws came back, want to stay in the army. they didn't have enough company commands and battalion commands for the west pointers. but they had made in the captain, made him a regular army captain. and he considered himself a first-class regular army captain. his first duty after coming back were serving in three states in the west, where he was a supervisor of training for militia units that were transitioning in to what was
12:29 am
becoming the united states national guard. when he got to alabama in 1912, he immediately cause a shakeup. there was increased federal money coming in to the annual budget in the state of alabama for the national guard. standards were immediately raised. one company was unprepared to go to cap, and was immediately eliminated. another company was eliminated for general inefficiency. newspapers covered the guard activity, and one reported that regiments faced tactical inblems, long sweating hikes sun blistering target ranges. became involved in the
12:30 am
training of these militia troops. they were invited to watch target practice, and invited to parades at the end of summer camp. the individual appearance of guardsmen, and standards of military courtesy or improved. shooting competitions are held regularly, and one person went to the 1912 olympic shooting competition. captain william preston screws, the supervisor, established an examination board for officers commissioned in 1913. this kind of thing was unheard of in this social militia that had preceded his coming to alabama. a signal corps was established men in 1913, and more than 150 attended attachable school taught by -- a tactical
12:31 am
school taught by army officers in 1914. it was considered exactly under the lines of a regular army camp. deficient guard officers were required to drill as privates in an effort to improve professionalism at drill and ceremony. a correspondence school was established by screws for officers, and participation was made mandatory. drillttendance at continued to be a problem. and most units were below minimum strength. the mobilization in 1916 did not come as a surprise, but the units were not prepared for the new way.
12:32 am
the new high requirements for troops on full-time active duty. the war department required dismissal of the officers and enlisted men unwilling to enter federal service, or who were physically unfit for such service. units to war strength, became a challenge. it's units were second-class, officers had always been part-timers. education beyond high school. most enlisted men were simply there for the money. despite having been ill trained ,nd fully equipped in the past the national guard suddenly offered young men an opportunity to walk away from the simple lives that many had been able --
12:33 am
unable to escape. with little or no education to fall back on, some found military service to be their first real opportunity. my father was one of those. he had seven grades of education, and went into the guard at age 19. all of these men, practically without exception, were grandchildren of confederates. time, the civil war was underway in mexico. the u.s. army was sent to the border. this has been discussed in previous presentations. mexicans had killed american civilians in a border crossing into new mexico, and president wilson, who would run on a piece ticket, was afraid the fighting would spill over and our country. that was one of his angles.
12:34 am
i'm sure that another one was of our being so totally unprepared for a war that was on the horizon. revolution ined mexico, as an internal matter. but the country shared a 2000 mile border, and had been troubled since 1910. authorizedilson 156,000 national guard into the border in 1916. ,aptain william preston screws this was taken at the time of mobilization, was mustering officers for alabama's full militia regiments. he dressed carefully, smoke profanity, buted
12:35 am
he was a very rigorous man. committed to the task before him. few companies were up to strength when you mobilize them. there were about 2600 men then. rival companies have three officers and 6i-5 men. -- 65 men. onre was increased emphasis -- at the time of mobilization, on physical fitness. and on recognizing and controlling venereal disease. battalion marches were practiced with 80 pounds of equipment. this is when they were on active duty for the first four months of basic training. one of the army's most senior officers and commander of the department of the east visited
12:36 am
montgomery, and inspected these men there. court-martialed and sentenced to hard labor for one two days for being absent after taps. discipline was more strictly enforced. newspapers treated mobilization positively. the montgomeryt advertiser's october 13 announcement that the expanded 4955, then numbering would move to the mexican border. departing with summary on six trains -- montgomery on six trains, bound for arizona. they slept on the trains on their way out of there, and prepare their meals there. these are shots on the mexican border. right was taken
12:37 am
on a recent visit to novalis. very little in the area has changed in the area since it existed in 1916, except it is no longer gringo town. it is essentially a mexican town. 4.5 months of advanced infantry training introduced rifle companies to reconnaissance patrols. armedomplicated, heavily patrols of platoon and larger strength were practiced. the men learn to set up ambushes for the capture of prisoners, and to conduct raids and surprise and kill groups of the enemy. the practiced french was trench was --
12:38 am
constructed, and getting relief troops in and out of those trenches in outposts in no man's land were practiced during this advance infantry training long before these men went to france. there he is method of rotating platoons and companies were practiced. home in january of 1917. it, despite many during theirown service on the border, that there was overwhelming evidence of the national guard of this period, was a very different force then the militia which had, on numerous occasions in proved to be unreliable.
12:39 am
from april 6, 1917, when the entered the war, the alabama soldiers guarded railroad bridges until washington decided what to do with them. it did not take long. the demeaning work of guarding august, bridges and in when the war department ordered the name of the fourth alabama infantry to be changed to the 167th united states infantry, permission of infantry regiment and promoted screws to full kernel. -- colonel. orders authorize the regimen to from 1400 torow 3720. the rifle companies strength was increased from 150 two june of
12:40 am
50. -- to 250. even the band expanded. the first alabama infantry, the second alabama infantry, the first alabama ellery, and the fourth alabama infantry regiment had a total of 5001 at five men. -- 5025 men. screws had worked with all of them, which helps them to cherry his new best 3720 four regiment. had written an officers efficiency report on every officer in the alabama national guard at that time. eyes ofgazed into the every shoulder -- soldier in that regiment, as he inspected all of them in ranks. 20 out ofthe best 37 5000, and no one was as well-equipped as he was to do that. that thes believed
12:41 am
national guard could be trusted to fight in france. make it act would distinct military asset. birth of thethe rainbow division. the national guard units from 26 states were brought to cap mills new york, and made into four infantry regiments. the ohio 166th, which was always with a watchful gaze of secretary of war baker. the new york67th, 165th, usually called the fighting 69th, in reference to its civil war designation, and the iowa 168. the twice of and thousand men with -- 27,000 men there,
12:42 am
regiments and support groups, came from 26 dates in the nation. really a public relations man in the office of militia of the general by the name of man. when baker said he wanted a unit created that would bring the nation from coast to coast into it, and it would represent all the people of the nation. a reporter, when macarthur was -- when this was in the process of being created, a reporter asked him what are you going to call it? he said it stretches across the country like a rainbow, and macarthur said we will call it the rainbow division.
12:43 am
and that was his fingerprint on this organization. macarthur was 10 years younger than screws. i guess i have to say that i always felt the alabama regimen was diminished until the time for the finding came. as they moved from the united , and this is in long island, where they were. secretary of war baker was credited their, and they have the paper say there were 60,000 people in attendance to this final parade. 15th go back to this
12:44 am
infantry. a lot of physical training and drilling, not much open field stuff i can't mills. that long.ot there -- camp mills. a were not there that long. it brought the division together at that point. there was conflict as you brought the diverse groups across the nation together. it was pretty constant fistfights between the irish of 69th, and some of the , told thesediers 15th cavalry guys who would come from the mexican border back up to camp mills that these alabamians argan to be out to get you. so there was tension, no doubt
12:45 am
about it. there was an instant that took place at a local railroad station. worker was atad the station, happened to be standing there doing nothing when a bunch of these drunk guys from alabama came in from the city, created havoc with him. i went back and checked with the new york public library, taking a look at the black press of the time it. it was an incendiary event, there is no question about it. you cannot belittle the situation like that. but i think, in all fairness, we must say that the new york times wrote an article that said there the blackcident, and press reported it regularly.
12:46 am
father duffy, who was the priest 165th saidn of the it is a small family row down the can't mills. -- at camp mills. all of that stuff went away when they went to europe. had wasip that we involved in the transportation of soldiers to europe at that time. germanthe confiscated ships that were in our possession were used for that transportation. mills -- at camp mills, there had been a pickup in the officer corps of the regiment benefited
12:47 am
of the product of the officer's training camp in plasterboard, new york, which had been in existence before we got into the war. most of these guys who would volunteer to go to plattsburgh had volunteered for these missions. they were filtered into the established regiments that existed at that time. t got abama uni healthy boost from these new officers. a few years ofd college, which was more than their national guard trained counterparts from alabama had. and all of them had volunteered. at this point, every person in the rainbow division was a volunteer. the spirit of the volunteer was quite significant, and it's as preparation for what going to face in europe.
12:48 am
they were going to face in europe. verys continued to be demanding and very disciplined, as he built the regiment. with this influx of new college classes.required night cap were all in disaster about the way they were received by the alabama soldiers. sprit of the division of the time. the rainbow division became more unified at camp mills. a mormon replacement brought in
12:49 am
-- wroteo road home home, the boys i am with now are from the south. of course, they are good fellows, and all that. but they have different ways, and seem a bit funny to me. in a postwar interview, that medal of honor recipient gave a vivid description of the alabamians. quote -- they were a bit rough, and a bit rowdy. but they were no boys who would stand by closely. i will tell you how it was. they were so full of life and pep, that they had to be doing something all the time. doing, they nothing would have to try to do something. they would raise hell. after thecontinued african-american soldiers at camp mills had been told by these irish boys that the
12:50 am
alabamians were going to be laying in wait for them. the officers of the 167th, before they went to europe, played down these instances. the tensions that did arise, and the violence that did occur, or discouraged by the army at its highest levels. conflicts among the f and an alsoaphical groups were being addressed at the highest levels by president wilson. he created the commission on training cap activities called the ctca. , theiately afterwards
12:51 am
nation had entered the war. it was charged with protecting the newly mobilized american soldiers from the ravages of venereal disease. the goal was to reshape the culture andulter -- theiry, in the image of white, urban, middle-class backgrounds. to make all soldiers fit in their vision of a new american man. two national guard divisions went to europe at that time. the 42nd, and the 26 new england. they joined the regular army first division, which had gone over a little bit earlier, with jj pershing. as their leader.
12:52 am
the second regular army division was created in france by cannibalizing units from the regular army in the united states and shipping them to france. you have the first and second divisions of the regular army, yet the 26 year england, and the rainbow over there. these four divisions were equal in training, and were the only american combat units in france through the winter of 1917 and 1918. they were called the winter divisions. the 167th had a good opinion of itself. as evidenced by a a company --mander sent to his brother his last letter before sailing. he wrote, are division is in the peak of condition, and morale is very high. is the most feared and respected here. the 165th have long ago learned that there was one regiment that you better not mess with.
12:53 am
it is a solemn fact that the -- gotten have gone the goat of everyone here. an officer told me that our boys were the only ones that his crowd of new yorkers were not afraid of. men reach their first destination in lorraine. let's go back and get this. they came into liverpool come across the channel, got off the train. month waitingt a for someone to decide what to do with them. telcos was about 60 miles from there.
12:54 am
aef is where the headquarters was located, and had been since july. france provided the americans with two large maneuver areas, and 21 smaller training areas, all having rifle, machine gun, and grenade ranges. withstood near a village barracks. all were functional, and had been used for french forces. started withning 30 new american officers and two french instructors join the regimen in 1913. on december 26, the 42nd division started a three-day andh from single integral four. during a great storm. the troops needed to be closer --shim on -- shame on
12:55 am
chamonds. it constituted an attempt to toughen up the soldiers. the mostship march was challenging trip yet. it was a test of endurance and tenacity. some identified it as the beginning of the divisions reputation for reliability and toughness. the 42nd division had not yet seen combat, and this experience brought the men and units closer together than anything they had previously and doing. -- been doing. high command called for additional training of as many u.s. personnel as possible. training of the range oh -- bynbow regiments was done the french. the british conducted specialty training. the national guard made every
12:56 am
, tort to work closely resemble the regular army. to facilitate it, commanding general jj pershing created an aef school system. trusted the the major general robert lee bullard, a fellow west pointer, and native of lee county alabama, to head it. the french provided for additional schools to train officers as platoon leaders and weapons specialists. became aater three-star and commanding general of the third army, when it was created. 3/4 of the original officers of the 167th, and many noncommissioned officers attended the first u.s. school -- the first core u.s. school.
12:57 am
most hated it. they understood that many of ,hem had been judged inadequate and they complained that the school was boring, and repetitive. some resented they were considered as being held back. the close order drill required of division officers to be a very embarrassing and demeaning experience. thecore of the regiment, doughboys, underwent constant maneuvers closer to the villages , and spent time on the rifle and machine gun ranges. they were to be the men for patrols, assault troops, and shock troops. 30 new american officers and two experienced french officers platoon, classes in
12:58 am
company, and battalion tack, and offer aided machine gun -- operated machine gun and battalion training. reflects the doctrine that was imposed on aef by general pershing. conduct aared to mobile warfare. moved from baccarat with 110 days, and then went into the champagne to save civilization. from that point on, they were planning to and --pate in send mail, other areas. there, they fought the greatest
12:59 am
challenge. if you don't know that story, you need to buy my book, at the bookstore today. i would like to spend more time talking about this great unit, dealy instructions were to with the training. i hope i have adequately done that. if you have questions, i will be glad to take them here, or later. [applause] >> we have about 10 minutes for questions. don't go anywhere. >> you talked a lot about the 29th division, blue and gray, where you had new jersey, maryland, and virginia coming together.
1:00 am
, particularly as you looked at the history of the 42nd, you talked about the confederate ancestry of the alabamians and the union ancestry of the new yorkers involved. i was curious if there was any we are the reunification of the country personified? >> i think that came later, when they all came together and were big winners. observed that the new york times was always the division headquarters. the new york times was constantly tracking the new york regimen, the 165th. they were in the paper of the time. there is no evidence of any single reporter in alabama ever visiting the 167th when it was in combat. not a single politician of standing from alabama visited this regimen when it was in combat. it's like it was diminished. macarthur was at the baccarat,
1:01 am
he had the french coming was very close to the french. -- his influence with the french that cause the french gear -- to dote bill a to give wild karate gear. . screws came to alabama and brought with him a intendedgion of honor -- bills rose didn't come to alabama, he was in alabama. the corps commander at the great victory at champagne, came to alabama and decorated on behalf of the nation of france, bill screws with agri-decoration. -- that great decoration. by then, those boys had come
1:02 am
home. they were treated differently. than anybody in their town had ever treated anybody. they had come home to a glorious homecoming. there were 75,000 people on the capitol grounds in montgomery. they were different. guru came tohen alabama and decorated those boys, he was decorating the nation. and they were different. these guys were all grandchildren of the confederacy. my grandmother was born in 1860. i knew many confederates. i knew many former slaves. there was a period of tremendous transition. when they were finally recognized by the united states, and by the nation of france, as great warriors -- which they were -- it certainly created a shift.
1:03 am
ii, when people would talk about reg out -- dugout doug, he didn't do it in my father's presence. there was tremendous macarthur loyalty among the common people of the state of alabama. does that -- are there other questions? i love to talk about this outfit. i'm a child of this division, said all of me overdo it. i'm going to step down now. i'm being told to step down. >> no, another question. i saw in your presentation, you memorial inre of a your book. could you tell us about that, and its reception by the french? >> thank you, amanda. birmingham to to the 42nd division reunion. early 20's.the memorialhere must be a
1:04 am
to this division, and it must be where we have shed our blood. he wanted to do it then. he wanted to do it in the 20's, when the economy was good. the feeling about the military was good. it didn't happen. i told you about the tension , it existed in my family resonated with me. after the old man died, my brother and i had published genealogical collections. i said you did a nice thing for our mother, but we haven't done a dam thing for the old man. we wouldn't be here but for him it. and then my brother died.
1:05 am
i made it a point to find out were my old man and been shot up here in. i'd never been on any kind of quest about the rainbow. but i went to france, and there it was. nothing changes much in france. these three lines, roads, even trails are exactly as they were in these 1917, 1918 maps. i found it. i went to the cemetery, 4000 americans buried four miles from her this great battle was fought. there was a house trailer there, it was a derelict piece of property, owned by three owners. but it stood right square in the atdle of this battlefield the farm. there are remnants there of this fortified 16th-century french
1:06 am
farmhouse. so i bought it. it took three years to buy it. you can't do business in france reasonably. [applause] [laughter] and you can negotiate price, you pay with ask for it. i bought it. help, ie considerable identified a guy in england, jim butler. done a british memorial in normandy. a royal navy memorial on the banks of the thames. he had done field marshal alexander in wellington barracks next to buckingham palace. i knew he was the real thing, but i was always an advocate and admirer of the world war i sculptor.
1:07 am
you have all seen his work, it's on the corner between hyde park in st. james park next to the duke of wellington's monument. it's great stuff. so i saw butler. said i'm a devotee of the sargeant jagger stuff. i don't want any modern things come i want to take it back like it was. heart --ve it in your if you ever in your heart wanted to do something, some sculpture that would resonate with you. , heeached back, in his barn took a piece of paper off the nail on a wall, andrew a stick figure here. it's -- it's in rome. that's mary holding the body of
1:08 am
christ. this is a rainbow soldier. he said i'm not a religious man. he said i can't call it the rainbow soldier. it's the soldier. and we made the decision right there to do this work, which he did, it took several months. we had a cast in scotland, moved to buy truck down to the royal academy in london at piccadilly. it was seen by thousands of 2011 atn the summer of the royal academy. there was a great reception in the royal academy, beautifully attended by french and british dignitaries, paid for by boat -- goldman sachs, incidentally. amanda is calling me down again. france, andoved to erected it on the monument. it's an hour and a half from notre dame, so if you are in paris, you have no excuse not to go down and see it. it's beautiful, and it is serene.
1:09 am
we have given it to the nearby town, and it is four miles from the great cemetery. we gave macarthur his memorial. [applause] will come back, everyone. final session of the day answers a question that no matter what type of history you talk about, we find we have to often answer the question, what is the legacy? why does this matter? how does this relate to what we see in the headlines today? with that in mind, we decided to construct our final session, which is a panel discussion of scholars from the old dominion university department of history and they will reflect on that question -- the legacy and impact of the first world war on today. i won't bore you with all of the biographies of the panel members. you can see the information for yourself in the programs. will cheer rouser and moderate this discussion,
1:10 am
and i know he is looking forward to having a good discussion with the audience. dr. rogers, all yours. >> thank you very much. welcome. i am here as sort of a -- we have four o.d.u. professors. i am a professor att.c.c. i am a specialist in british cultural history. i wear a hat at odu. of the journal of scottish studies at old dominion university. plug in, we are planning a future issue on scotland and the first world war. if anyone has submissions, please see me after the presentation. we hope to make this mostly q between usiscussion and members of the audience. i will start out with a general introduction.
1:11 am
the legacies of the first world war certainly are very apparent today. just last week, we had the very moving ceremony involving the almost 900,000 poppies that are surrounding the tower of london in commemoration of the british and colonial and commonwealth dead in the first world war. i was lucky enough to be able to put that on youtube and show it to my students that it was happening. luckily, i had class on november 11. the students were able to see the readings of the last names that they were commemorating and the marks of tribute. holduld have to have a other conference on the legacies of the first war. there are so many that have resonated, even to our own time. democratic values, self-determination, communism,
1:12 am
leninism, and the effects worldwide, fascism, the birth of , it may lead to the holocaust, at least according to the oftorian, the empires, and maybe more portly, the creation of new states, the baltic states, poland, czechoslovakia, yugoslavia, and of course, turkey in the states of the middle east to name just a few. leading to colonial unrest, independencee movement in india, which became very important to the british empire, and of course, the second world war. i am a cultural historian in many ways. in the artsted during the war and right after the war. we all know the war poets. owen, sassoon,
1:13 am
and the prose literature is equally as rich. rob graves, in england, eric partridge. they are britain's testament of youth. a very important legacy of the war. music in the 1960's, when the , works ofs of music art, was britain's war requiem set to the poems of wilford 01. piece called a "morning heroes" back commemorates the dead of the war, and especially his brother. the visual arts. roberts,, william stanley spencer, henry tom was a very interesting artist who is also a surgeon. images ofy stark
1:14 am
wounded soldiers, particularly soldiers who had severe disfigurement. there is an exhibit in london at the kent terrien gallery of his work and how he depicted surgeries that lays the groundwork for modern plastic surgery in a way to help these people reclaim their lives after the war, these wounded people. many countries are commemorating the event. offrance, i think an example renewed french nationalism, the talkingfficial website about remembering the strength of the nation when it stood together. on july 14, best deal they -- bastille day, the president of france invited 70 nations to participate in a show of common
1:15 am
brotherhood in the year that the war started. in germany, it is a more muted response. a lot of people in germany don't want to talk about the militarism of the war. nazismories of how the may be refused the memory of the war. we see a more positive response in russia, with a revival of interest in the royal family, greatar, as a wise an czar, who may have been betrayed by a revolution. in britain, we have the poppies, and we have "downton abbey." [laughter] it is always with us. to my left is lorraine leaves. on americancialist foreign-policy and diplomatic history. she will say a few words about that. markova.ft is anna
1:16 am
she is a historian of the late ottoman empire, the balkans, citizenships, and minorities in the ottoman empire. who is a historian of american immigration in particular in the late 19th and early 20th century. i will start out with a few more remarks about england and push it to my colleagues. we will take questions and i hope you guys can also reflect on the last -- today and yesterday's conference and what came out of that. memorialized the first world war and thought about it a great deal. we do have the issue of sacrifice. in england, sacrifice is often associated with -- in france, it is done. we have the poppies. we first started seeing that in england in 1921.
1:17 am
the veterans organizations, especially in england, the royal british legion, started distributing them. one thing i find interesting about the legacy of the first world war is how it accelerated nsanges that had origi before the war and may be right at the outset of the war. many of our speakers have alluded to classic books about the whole issue and a couple of times, the guns of august came up. very famous book that came out in the 1960's. people of my generation would have started to first learn about some of these issues, barbara tuchman. for many british historians, a classic book which probably isn't very strong today but it was certainly well-written, is a book called "the strange death of liberal england" by george dangerfield. that book is interesting in this context because it pointed to
1:18 am
will gainengland that momentum and be resolved in some way by the war and right after the war. in particular, the rise of labor, the power of the labour , becamerade unionism pretty radicalized in scotland, for example. it was a major topic towards the end of the war. the leads, of course, to ascendancy of the labour party and the first labor government in 1924, in a result in some ways as a change of a war. it also led to the famous boat from king george v, when he allowed the labor government to take office. he said 22 years after the death of his grandmother, queen
1:19 am
victoria, i wonder what dear grandmama would think of a labour government. [laughter] towardss a greater move democracy, with universal male suffrage, and women were in franchised in 1918. they had to be 30. they could not handle a vote unless they were older than men. that is changed by the 1920's. one thing i found interesting in problems in the nature of the british state itself, particularly involving in the days of the summer of 1914, many people in england paid no heed to what was going on in the european continent, even after the assassination of france ferdinand. were preoccupied with the irish question. the government at the time was planning to give ireland autonomy.
1:20 am
that would have meant the majority of irish would have been roman catholic, and that created a huge opposition from ulster, the mostly protestant section. it looked as if, had that logon through, the people of ulster would have risen up in some way arms and started civil war. these ulster men were supported wholeheartedly by the english conservative party, the tory to helpnd they agreed them. it looked as if there might be a civil war. even the english army, if they were called upon to restore order, many officers were inclined to try to find a way to either resign or not show up for work when called upon in this became a severe crisis. the war put that on ice for a
1:21 am
while, but irish nationalism continued. most notably reflected in the eastern rising of 1916 and the bloodshed that caused. "thateats called, terrible beauty." the separation of ireland from the rest of the united kingdom with the creation of the irish free state in 1920's without ulster. these issues are still playing out. these are still major issues in the british isles. for me, that is an important connection to what the war represented. when other connection, or two other connections, we fast-forward. another commemoration we are working on is the berlin wall coming down. it is interesting how margaret thatcher was so apprehensive about a united germany.
1:22 am
one would certainly suspect that she was thinking not just of world war ii, but germany and world war i. a big issue for her time. that reminds us of the first world war -- if you remember the wedding of kate and william, after the wedding, kate's bouquet was placed on the black slab, the unknown warrior in westminster abbey. that is the unknown soldier. it is a mark of tribute, a mark of respect. that tradition goes back to ,923, when the queen mother lady elizabeth, married the duke of york. as she left the abbey, her bouquet went on the slab as well. that is because she lost her brother in the first world war. her brother was killed in the first world war. the present queen's uncle died in the first world war. she never knew him. there was a lot of connection between that event and leading
1:23 am
up to almost the present day. all right. i'm just going to speak about the u.s. legacy, or the legacy of the war for the u.s.. the u.s. is in the war for a short period of time compared to the rest of the combatants. u.s. casualties are very low. there is no damage to u.s. homefront. the american economy actually booms during the war, and as you all know, the united states of merges as the world's majo r creditor nation. they exercise and a notice amount of power around the 1920's. so much so that what we think of the americanization of europe begins in the 1920's. it is to the extent that american brand names become synonymous with the product itself.
1:24 am
if you were a housewife in great britain in the 20's, you did not vacuum your cocarpet, you hoovered them. the war had important repercussions at home. many cases, world war i accelerates trends that have already been underway. for example, there is a growth in presidential power, but that has also been happening since the turn-of-the-century. there is a lot of government intervention in the economy, and that will reseed in the 1920's, but obviously will become a fact of life because of the great depression and second world war. woodrow wilson does do some things that had not been done before. many of which are negative. for example, he will suppress civil liberties more than any of his predecessors ever had, although again, the suppression of civil liberties in wartime goes back to the 1790's. woodrow wilson does take it to
1:25 am
an extreme. franklin roosevelt he will not make the same mistakes that wilson does, but as we all know, he makes others that are perhaps even worse. that idea that the constitution takes a backseat to a war really becomes ingrained in the american system. revolution that occurs in russia in 1917 crystallizes a fear of radicals that is always part of the american psyche. the result is the red scare of the 1920's, immigration restriction, and this again will establish a pattern for things that will happen throughout the 20th century. there is some genuine change just as it was in great britain. butn get the right to vote, not until 1920. the united states is a little bit behind there. , havingamericans
1:26 am
distinguished themselves in battle, come back determined to fight for their rights at home. start of theee the modern civil rights movement as a result of the great war. the u.s. rejects wilson's peace plan because the u.s. sees more danger than security in the treaty oversize. versailles.y of harry truman was an artillery officer in the great war. 1918, he wrote a letter to his cousin and he told her of a saying that was making the rounds. i think this sort of illustrates perhaps why the american public not support the treaty of her side. the saying was, "germany was fighting for territory. england for the sea. france for patriotism. the americans for souvenirs." i think that conveys the fact
1:27 am
that wilson never really made the stakes of this war as a parent to the american public as he should have. harry truman also represents some other aspects of the legacy of the war. on november 1, 1918, he was on n, and he wrotedu a letter to his cousin telling her he saw a little poppy coming up through the rocks and he thought the flower had a nerve on trying to grow on a site in a terrible battle. but it looks so pretty in a place that he had to pick it and send it to her. he sent want to bet as well. there you see some the poignancy of the war. on november 11, while he was waiting for the armistice to take affect, he whicha letter to beth in
1:28 am
he expresses feelings of the enemy. "it is a shame we cannot go in and detonate germany and cut off a few of the kids' hands and feet and scalp a few of the old men. i guess it will be better to make them work for france and belgium for 50 years." here is the man most associated droppingpublic mind on the bomb on japan in 1945. when he does that, in a public statement he releases, he says, this is revenge for pearl harbor. i think the question is, was he made calais by the first world war or was that always part of his character? obviously, there are some connections there. wilson's rhetoric of self-determination inspired many around the world, and that is particularly true of people living in colonial areas. when we think of the treaty of versailles, we think of major powers that were present at
1:29 am
paris. not everyone there was a major power. for example, a 28-year-old kitchen worker who was living in paris at the time of the conference tried to make an appointment with woodrow wilson to present him with a petition for his country's independence. place,ting never took and a few decades later, we would come to know that man is ho chi minh. there were lots of people there who are trying to make wilson and the other powers live up to the rhetoric of self-determination. ho chi minh was one of many that found the rhetoric did not extend to colonial peoples. nationalism and wars of liberation and all that will be the most important stories of the 20th century. wilson's peace plan does sort of linger at home. franklin roosevelt, as we heard, his assistant secretary of the navy during the first world war,
1:30 am
was very determined to avoid some of the mistakes that wilson had made. wilson's memory. in march of 1945, roosevelt andrned from the conference went to address the american congress to explain to them what had gone on at the crimean concert -- crimean conference. the speech is remarkable for a number of reasons. as a first time he publicly made mention of the disability. he apologized to congress for sitting down while making the speech, because he said after the 14,000 mile journey, he could not bear the weight of his leg braces on his legs. he had never talked about that before. relate whatwould happened at the conference, he
1:31 am
asked for the support of congress and made reference to ghosts of the past. he said at the end of his speech , "25 years ago, american fighting men looked to the statement of the world to look for the peace that for they fought and suffered. we failed them then. we cannot fail them again and expect the world to survive." is evoking the ghost of woodrow wilson. the world survived after 1945, i been but peace has elusive. i think that is one of the unfortunate legacies of the war. >> i will just briefly connect to what lorraine said about the right to self-determination, which many people in the post-ottoman world discovered to be reserved for some, but not for others. inm remembering now that 1919, just before the french ,ook over syria and lebanon
1:32 am
there was a convention of the syrian national congress and the participants laid out the points arguing why they should begin independence. one of the points was, after the treaty of berlin in of 1878, the bulgarians and serbs and romanians were given independence. they are not more civilized or more mature than we are. i will talk about the legacy of the war in the context of the balkans, the post-ottoman balkans. it is true that most of the balkans gain some form of independence after the treaty of berlin of 1878 and some of the issues that resurfaced after world war i were already figured there. the big issue was minorities, because the population had been so mixed. after national borders were drawn, something had to be done
1:33 am
about minorities. places like bogue area or greece had adaria or greased hoc regulation initially, what to do with those who were different from the nation. it is really the end of world war i, with his emphasis on protecting minorities, that forced the post-ottoman balkan states to articulate some sort of framework for dealing with those who are different from the hegemonic nation. on one level, on paper that was wonderful. sudden, muslims in bulgaria were given a special statute, quite a bit of autonomy to take care of their religious .roperty and affairs they had a democratic system of electing representatives to communal organizations. that came along with strict
1:34 am
monitoring. around the time, every single minority newspaper, whether it k, turkish,-- gree armenian, it had a filing of greece. from the perspective of bulgarian authorities, and later perspective of greek and turkish authorities, once you do find a minority, your creating a separate part of the state. the establishment of minority regulations, while they were intended to ensure democratic rights, in fact it led to stricter monitoring of people who are not members of the dominant nation. that kind of legacy of world war i sort of lingers on. there is always fear to this day greeks, orvs and
1:35 am
turks and bulgarians, if they are given some sort of rights, it would lead to the loss of territory. major legacyther of world war i in the post-ottoman world, this very tight link between population and sovereignty. the big example is the exchange between the turkish in the greek populations after world war i that sort of solidified this title link between territory population and sovereignty. numeroust, there were smaller regulations and regulated migrations. to turkey ors went bulgarians came to bulgaria, they were settled in border regions because from the perspective a central authorities, once you have
1:36 am
nationals in border regions, your secure enough on your borders but you are making sure that the territory will never be lost again. this very interesting how perception of sovereignty can be tracing demographic surveys. the population after world war i changing because of this perception, that you have to secure borders of populations. there is a great fear to this day that concentrated populations would lead to the loss of territory. there is historical relevance to that. ware take the legacy of the to the present day, we will see that there are all sorts of diplomatic negotiations about trade or about issues which are
1:37 am
not directly connected to nationalism, and whenever two ,overnments come to different conflicting points, there are references to history, back to what happened in world war i in particular, and regulated migration. some of the political tensions we see now days can directly traced to minority regulations after world war i. i will stop with that. >> good afternoon. i'm going to speak more about the immediate consequences or legacies of the war, particularly for global migrants. what i have to say parallels nicely with what professor markova just discussed. on the eve of world war i, transatlantic migration reached a remarkable high point of over 2.1 million people. world war i's major significance, for me and other historians interested in the international migration, is the
1:38 am
war marked a turning point during which a fairly integrated global economy of people and products shifted quite precipitously towards a more protectionist one, yet increasingly closed the world's borders to mobile people. during what historians called the age of mass migration, he'll most century-long epics starting in the mid-19th century, millions of people are on the move, leaving their homelands, pushed and pulled by the expansion of global capitalism, labor demands, famines, violence, and new transportation and medication technology. while the u.s. did not receive the majority of international migrants, the country did receive more migrants than any other single country or colonial territory during this. 's -- during this period. its thought -- rethought relation to the next of the
1:39 am
world. of thethe first decades 20th century, 9 million people arrived in the united states, the large majority came from europe from countries on both sides of the conflict that had engulfed european nations and their colonies by 1914. before the war, the u.s. had been somewhat clueless about immigrants and foreign relations. that is, immigrants cultural, familiar, and economic ties to their homelands. the reality that immigrants came to an existed in the u.s., but remained in a transnational world that tied them intimately to the homelands, did not fit well into this myth of isolationism that had factored so centrally in u.s. nationbuilding. world war i kind of burst of the myth of isolationism apart, rendering immigrants ties, and
1:40 am
through them the u.s.' ties, to the rest of the world, visible and visibly treacherous. in the context of the increasing chaos in europe, the u.s. foreign-born population appeared increasingly dangerous too many americans who saw u.s. national identity and sovereignty threatened by immigrants and during transnational times. immigrants faced a lot of pressure to melt into the melting pot during and after the war. of xenaades worth phobic activity took on new intensity after 1914. during the war, the hyper national 100% americanism movement, combined with pseudo-size -- pseudoscientific ideas about racial identity, sought the asation of immigration
1:41 am
protecting the u.s. from the world. it was aimed at mostly immigrants from china and other asian countries, and culminated in three laws passed by congress during and immediately after the war. the 1924 immigration act, which used a racially discriminatory quota system to drastically reduce the number of southern and eastern european immigrants perfecting asian exclusion really close the gates to transpacific migrations, a closing that would not be pried open until 1965. not the u.s. was exceptional in intensifying focus on its borders in the early 19th century. the u.s. pioneered legislation exclude various racial groups, but various policies were adopted by other empires and the colonies, as well as
1:42 am
countries in the western hemisphere, including mexico and canada, both of which experienced diplomatic pressure by the u.s. to close their gates and borders. the increasingly global quality of restrictions on global people during and after world war i, a conflict that dislodged but fortified borders, reveals the extent to which borders and the people who move across them played and continue to play in nationbuilding projects. surprised that the interwar years witnessed a trend towards the consolidation of national borders globally, as well as challenges to these ,onsolidations by nationstates by multi-ethnic populations, and by migrants every day movement. immediately after the war during the 1920's, international migration actually resumed until the global wide depression. saw astwar world
1:43 am
universalizing of restrictive regimes in the form of more rigid international passport controls, deportation drives, the massive population exchanges mentioned, inva general restrictions, not only on immigration, but emigration, the right to leave a nation. of high nationalism characterizing the post-world war i period, the assumption that the national borders were person's writes arose fromrights their citizenship and not elsewhere. the following global wide depression and rising nationalism during the 1930's exhibited obvious signs of a globalization of backlash that
1:44 am
endured until the end of the cold war, when a new international order supported a move towards a liberalization of borders. while immigration restrictions were part of a longer trend towards border control linked to nationalism in the mid to late 19th century, world war i really strengthened this trend, fostering in a new era of feariction, a new era of of mobile peoples that stood in stark contrast to the 19th century. ironically, in america it was only after massive restrictions on transatlantic and transpacific migrations achieved their intended effect that the u.s. begin to celebrate itself as a nation of immigrants, which of course endures today as one of the most common ways the u.s. itsdefined itself, defiance history, and defined its
1:45 am
exceptionalism. by turning to immigrants and the united states affecteds how the war immigrants transnational connections. u.s. entrance into the war had a. optical effect -- had a whilexical effect simultaneously awaking and intensifying immigrants' ties to homelands across the ocean. the war gave the opportunity for first and second-generation immigrants to prove their patriotism during a time when their loyalties were deeply in question. thisng better illustrates than the over half a million immigrants drafted into military service during the war, including many immigrants who had not yet declared their ntion to naturalize and were technically exempt from the draft, but waved the right
1:46 am
of exemption and allowed themselves to be drafted. other first and second-generation immigrants paraded their support for the effort by buying wire bonds, donating money to wartime organizations, participating in patriotic celebrations, and working in war-related industries. with about 18% of the u.s. military for an-born during world war i, the military had to multiethnic, multilingual army in ways that fostered a sense of conformity in americanness, but also in a way that recognized and even respected immigrants' ethic traditions and loyalties. the remarkable sympathy that the u.s. military displayed for the dual identities of its immigrant ethnic soldiers makes the real and very oppressive nativist movement during and after the war all the more surprising and paradoxical. providesld war i
1:47 am
immigrants a platform for displaying their patriotism towards their adopted country, it also simultaneously provided a way for migrants to demonstrate support for their homeland and indeed, these two expressions of loyalty and national identification were not mutually exclusive. many immigrant groups had much to gain, or lose, in the war. czech, jewish, serbian, irish immigrants hoped that world war i would result in individual homelands for part of a dream that would be realized for some groups and not for others. identifying as exiled and oppressed peoples, many immigrants left your precisely because they had been marginalized by a powerful european empire. theythey were in the u.s., continued to operate in transnational worlds where the people and politics of their homelands and regions loomed
1:48 am
large. andgrants' cultural explicitly political expressions of commitment to homeland causes signal to some anglo-americans that migrants were unassimilated. historians have shown that ' fory did immigrants relations threaten american sovereignty, and a most cases nationalism and ethnic consciousness coexisted with assimilation to u.s. society. the history of assimilation in world war i shows immigrants combining or ethnic and american identities in ways that positioned them solidly in two cultures. to conclude, world war i confirmed too many americans the of what an open, unregulated border could mean for the future of the country.
1:49 am
a country where the myth of isolationism had blinded many americans to the ways in which the u.s. was very much connected to the rest of the world through its numerous immigrants. they see them as dangerous in part because they remind the .ountry it saw a global shift towards a world more increasingly hostile of mobile people. i will stop there. >> thank you. , you think of what an issue that was as the allies are carving up areas of the former ottoman empire. issue, anna was
1:50 am
talking about how that resonates today. i have a close friend who is on gary and. -- who is on gary and. -- hungarian. one treaty to him the transferred a large part of gary is still like it happened yesterday. maybe you can talk about bash, how minorities are still in issue to many countries in the balkans. >> it also is a place where migrant populations are always thought of. >> greece and macedonia? >> turkey, greece, and bulgaria. >> time for questions. comments and questions.
1:51 am
>> we still have a number of speakers here and we have a variety of other expertise not represented on the panel. we are all happy to answer questions, too. >> i wanted to keep going with the minority issues. it is close to my heart. i married into a family of bulgarian-turkish migrants. it is something that actually comes up a lot and family history. the point i wanted to make, and you can comment as you would like, what i often hear from students writing papers in the .ort of thing the selective treatment and the european hypocrites and so on, and i hear where they are coming from. what i do trying to condition the critique with is a bit of detail where some of the groups came from that were offered the
1:52 am
states. if you look at the treaty of berlin, they contribute troops to the russian war. serbia eclair war on the ottomans before russia did. bulgaria was an army of volunteers. , whatbout syria, iraq about the kurds? the interesting point is that none of them actually contributed to major legions or detachments to the allies' war cause. the zionists, you have the jefferson jewish legion in syria, and also had the british made it sound like it was worth more than it actually was, abdul and the arabs were attached in some fashion. the armenians also had a legion attached. a casebalkans, it seems more of which side you chose. if you are on the right side of the war, that is what determined it. it may not have been entirely
1:53 am
arbitrary, but the decisions being made about the futures of these minority peoples, whatever wilson's rhetoric and ideals were basically seen us part of contributions to the war effort. > on gary and's-- the hungarians lost. the arabs were on the winning side, and they still lost. >> sure. the bulgarians contributed quite a bit of effort in world war i. they did fight. [laughter]
1:54 am
1:55 am
i see your point. >> the classic example is what happened to the greeks. the greeks were the winners and then overreached didn't they? >> yes. >> yes. thank you. my question is, when you have a n army that's bogged down in less than sanitary conditions, and not particularly mobile, what is the legacy of the mobility that we have now compared to the acknowledged lack of mobility then? that's one question. the second is, did that lack of mobility and the disease that it fostered, was that a primary reason for ending the war, or was it some mystical battle that just forced armies to separate? and that is aimed at the spanish flu and the tens of thousands of people on both
1:56 am
sides of the line that died of it. were the countries just not able to continue fighting because of the lack of sanitation and the lack of disease control? >> it comes very late i guess in the war, but i think any of us are qualified to answer that. maybe somebody in the audience can address that issue. >> well, it's really late. i mean, really, the spanish flu epidemic comes after, so it's after -- it's in 1918 and it really begins in august of 1918. so you're actually already kind of past that stage. i mean, if you want to look at it from my research, if you look at the austrian border, those areas are 90% obliterated by august, 1918. they're gone, well before the flu.
1:57 am
>> mora, andrew wants to contribute something. >> i think we have to say that question goes beyond the scope of this panel. >> just in terms of hygiene and sanitation, the second world war, the british fought between 1899 and 1902, 21,000 dead of flu, 7,000 died from enemy action. the rest of disease. i hate to sound facetious but the great wars are very, very hydrogeologist genic wars in some ways because very few people died from disease apart from the middle east. in the western front the great advantage for logistics is the front doesn't move very much. it is very easy to supply people and rotate them through, so it's not a big killer. that said, as you indicate, flu kills a lot of people, but it's really at the end of the war and the war ends with the armistice essentially because
1:58 am
germany is losing, really that simple. it's not because people get exhausted or bored by it. they have lost the war. >> professor, you mentioned self-determination and independence. my question to you is, the american policy, have you studied the history of that? i have a keen eye for the obvious, and it seems to me a glaring hypocrisy that the united states government supports self-determination in south vietnam, south korea, south africa, but not for south carolina. do you have any thoughts on that? >> well, we all know what ratio is used and they're appalling. that's one of the reasons he went to ho chi minh. he cooperates in the effort to
1:59 am
deny the japanese a racial equality clause at versailles. you have to look at this in the context of the time period. unfortunately, that's the context of the time period. franklin roosevelt, a better anticolonialist than woodrow wilson, but there are issues there as well. and i think the foreign policy that a nation has reflects its domestic agenda. i think that's the best answer i can give for something like that. the domestic agenda has to change. the domestic mindset has to change before you see a change in the foreign policy. >> my grandmother defied her well born and wealthy family to leave home and become a nurse. my question is two parts. we know current battlefield medicine is making great strides for millions. you mentioned plastic surgery.
2:00 am
i'd like to know what else came out of the great war, and secondly, though grandmother in her late 20's right after the war did manage to find an appropriate husband, so many millions of women did not. yet we didn't turn to polygamy for that in europe. could you tell me more bellator the effect -- more about the effect the lack of men had on the women both in lack of families and in having to support themselves because they did not have a husband to support them? >> i think, it's a european or british phenomenon. it isn't american. can you speak to that in great britain? i mean, there's a whole generation of women who will have no husbands. and that can speak perhaps to the battlefield medicine side of it or bill or whoever
2:01 am
>> you see the classic example from vera britain who served on the western front as a nurse. and medicine as i understand had made great strides but you're no longer -- still not in the area of antibiotics yet. so you could have many people saved who would never have been saved before so that is why after the war there are so many people who are disfigured veterans and even seeing something like that very interesting play, "johnny got his gun" the quadruple amputee and they were able to save him and the only way he can communicate is by banging his head on the pillow in morse code. that would have been impossible in the civil war for example i think. >> the subject of medicine in world war i is so huge that it would be really hard to give you an answer. i'll try and do it really quickly. the x-ray machine was invented before world war i but it was
2:02 am
only really understood during world war i. you had to have those machines in order to look at where shrapnel was in the body and that sort of thing. so those sorts of advances were important. the whole birth of plastic surgery comes here. there is going to be a new motion picture out next year on plastic surgery coming out of world war i. you have as well prosthetics. all of that's developed at this time, and so it is head trauma, all of those things really begins with the kind of injuries that come out of world war i. certainly nursing is so important. there is an interesting thing about nursing in world war i is that oftentimes doctors couldn't really do anything because the wounds were so extensive the men were just going to die. and so doctors come out of world war i feeling really
2:03 am
inept, whereas nurses really could help people. they could be with them as they died, and so women really get a boost in terms of feeling important in that context. in terms of marriage, boy. i'll let laura answer that. >> the obvious answer is really long in a lot of ways, but many women are -- the aspect of the generation is that what you do have, i think, more than what women are going to do because they don't have partners is the growth of demographic policies under the fascists that are really influenced by the fact that there is this sense that there goes not a generation -- is not a generation growing up. this idea of the lost generation. if you think about systems of women are the ones who are less
2:04 am
-- women don't have their own citizenship so that women are left stateless. those are the bigger problems, too, in the legal realm. so there's a huge variety of things we could talk about. >> one more thing. let's not forget the psychological side of all this. the enduring legacies of many veterans of the war with was shell shock. of course that leads to greater developments in psychiatry. we have the characters in miss dalway. we have the novels of pat barker discussing these issues. there is another side of this issue, right? >> we have time for one or two more questions. >> yes. >> how much -- how historically accurate was the novel "all quiet on the western front"? did it promote any sort of
2:05 am
sympathy for germans in general? >> i don't know how much sympathy it promoted but it certainly promoted sympathy for those opposed to warfare. it, you know, it's the classic anti-war novel. it's one of several he wrote. there is a sequel called "the road back" and then "three comrades." i think it is most interesting how it obviously had a greater influence as a film. i remember seeing it the first time, i was just devastated by the realism of it. and it certainly reinforced pass fism -- pacifism for a great many people. other people like the nazis hated it because it did not glorify war. when they would try to show that in germany they tried to disrupt theatrical performances. they would set off smoke bombs and stink bombs so people would leave the theaters. so, you know, it's the classic
2:06 am
novel obviously, one of many great films of the first world war. there are more coming out. one of my favorites is "paths of glory" and -- >> the flip side from the german perspective is "storm of steel" which gives the sense -- if you put those two novels together, you have the one classic anti-war and the one classic german aggression. i'm not sure that overall literature was any kind of sympathy for germany. one last question. >> thank you. can any of you talk about the iraq area and the effects of the first world war and the minorities of that area and how that led to the current problems we have searching -- >> we need another conference for that. iraq was originally a british mandate after the first world
2:07 am
war. and britain was going to use that basically -- it wasn't as much oil yet as fear of maybe russian aggression toward india. but by the early 1920's it was because of local insurgencyies, actually, that it was turned over, prince fiesal who had tried to become king of syria was now installed -- kicked out by the french from syria which was their mandate. and faisal was sent to iraq and an independent iraq but under a lot of -- there were a lot of ties to britain, so they fight jordan. there was a sig can't tie to the colonial power. but it was a very big issue. >> thank you all very, very much.
2:08 am
2:09 am
2:10 am
2:11 am
2:12 am
2:13 am
2:14 am
2:15 am
2:16 am
2:17 am
2:18 am
2:19 am
2:20 am
2:21 am
2:22 am
2:23 am
2:24 am
2:25 am
2:26 am
2:27 am
2:28 am
2:29 am
2:30 am
2:31 am
2:32 am
2:33 am
2:34 am
2:35 am
2:36 am
2:37 am
2:38 am
2:39 am
2:40 am
2:41 am
2:42 am
2:43 am
2:44 am
2:45 am
2:46 am


info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on