tv Jefferson the Federalists in Washington DC CSPAN August 1, 2020 1:00pm-2:01pm EDT
discusses tumultuous interactions between democratic-republican presidential candidate thomas jefferson and federalist members of the seventh congress, the first to have a full session in the new capitol, washington, d.c. he explains how political differences between the two parties led them to politicize many aspects of daily life, including food, socializing, and science. the u.s. capitol historical society provided video of this event. jane: today is the inaugural scholars series. we thought we would start with our very own chuck. chuck is one of the nation's finest scholars on the first congress and that early period in the development of our country. we have been fortunate to have as part of our society team for five years there are prior to that, he was 27 years
working on the first congress program. he has put together a very imaginative presentation using primary sources, letters of the time, where people wrote to one another about science, food, culture, and the back and forth that made early days in washington. we invite you to stay with us for questions and answers. chuck will do his presentation and i will work through the questions. we have a couple of questions we may be able to do during the presentation. the majority of the questions will be at the conclusion of the presentation. please put your questions in and i will try to work them through both at the end and as we move forward. thank you very much for the work you have done to put this together and welcome to the platform. chuck: welcome, everyone.
i am really happy to pull this off. imaginative tell an story. so let your minds go. this is not a straightforward narrative. we will touch a lot of points. the point of departure for me came with the publication of my book. it is my book on board stature. -- george stature. volume of his letters, the point of departure for me was at the second session, the last session of the six congress. he comes to washington, d.c. when the federal government first moved here in 1800.
he arrives from maine with his fellow congressman, who was a portland merchant and revolutionary war veteran. for many new englanders, this exposure to washington, d.c. is their first exposure to rural slavery. he writes to his daughter a few days before the opening of that session of the sixth congress, the first session to meet in washington, d.c., he writes, the ground as you approach georgetown is excellent for roads. but it is in very bad repair. here was exhibited the precious effects of slavery. of soil and progress to telling, settled with nigro huts -- with negro huts.
on, what of the capital? it is but one wing of the original design. the body has only appeared to the imagination of the foundation which is laid in stone and lime. you can see this illustration here. this is the capital that they appear at at the end of the century. november 1800, when they convene. they meteor -- i show this because not many people get to see this evidence. this is a blueprint of the main floor of the capital at that time when congress first moves in. the senate was below where the old supreme court chamber is now. the gallery is depicted here. the house of representatives is actually meeting where the
library of congress was are going to eventually be meeting. -- was going to eventually be meeting. in the third session, i'm sorry, there is no third session. in the second congress, he decides he is the only congressman to happen reelected as often as he was at that point in congressional history. he decides his family is better served as a separate court justice. maine was part of massachusetts at that time. he gives up his seat in congress. his old roommate is now e, orsenting main massachusetts. nathan read was a scientist from salem, massachusetts. he is interested in steam engines. he applies for patents from congress before he is elected in 1800. he only serves this one session.
they reside in a boardinghouse. the seventh congress meets wadsworth finds other housing. reverend vanessa cutler is a a congregational minister from hamilton, massachusetts. he is kind of an everyman. a lawyer, a merchant. many might know him as the subject of a book about the ohio country. he is one of the main lobbyists of the ohio country that promotes settlement. most of the letters, most of the voices you will be hearing are nathan read and manasseh cutler. they both left illumina's records of their writings. mostly up in salem , massachusetts. besides being colleagues in terms of the record they left
behind they are colleagues , spatially. they inhabit the same boardinghouse room. i don't know if you can see my cursor. it is right here, it is where the library of congress jefferson building sits now. those of you know this is carol low, they occupied the southern most on the far right. a boardinghouse won by just highest king. -- jusias king. just the way he described it to his daughter. this is the first session of the seven congress. this is the first entire congress that is called washington, d.c. home. he wrote it is situated east of , the capital. nathan read and myself have the most pleasant room in the house. it is a third story, commending
a delightful prospect of the capital, on the president house, all the houses in the city, along the river and city of alexandria. you can imagine how beautiful that must've been. exceedingly happy with mr. reed. if i had made my choice of all the members of the congress to live with me, all things considered, i should have chosen mr. reed. i am not much pleased with the capital. it is a huge pile built with handsome stone. very heavy in appearance but not pleasant within. if they were looking out their window tour the capitol, this is what they would be seeing. the north chamber on the right side. the left, that odd structure is called the oven. some of you may have seen images of it before. none of this would be contemporary. these are all reconstructed images. we don't know exactly what it looked like except from verbal
descriptions. they are connected with the central part of the building with this walkway where there were stairways to the gallery leading to the top of where the houses are at. they stayed there through the seventh congress up through the first session of the if congress. from now on, i will be using the words of these three men. at some point, i will be throwing in some words from william plummer, a senator from new hampshire. he came a year later to fill a vacated seat. he shows up in 1802. all of these things are spinoffs of my book on thatcher. i was curious once he leaves congress, what happened afterwards? what happens to the federalist congressman from massachusetts, the other new england states, who were left behind to carry on the federalist fight?
defeat,his experiencing a ripoff of the book the experience of defeat which looks at how quakers and others dealt with the restoration after the english civil war. i wanted to see how they dealt with defeat. from that chronological episode, i teased out four themes. they all cover micro history. i tease them out of their records of three or four days. those first three or four days of 1802. i began to realize that what they are talking about is basically the politicization of everything. we are talking about food, science, and historical memory. , infirst one, sociability washington revolved around the white house. the new occupant at this point
was thomas jefferson. he had been inaugurated in march 1801. we all know from his famous first inaugural where he says, we are all federalists. we are all republicans. he is trying to conciliate all parties. what he really meant was we are all republicans. the federalists just don't know it yet. he is not naive, he realizes the federalists special treatment. one way he does this is to use one of the great informal resources at his disposal, the white house social life. it sets up a contract with his predecessors, the federalist republican court. exaggerated been 19th-century view of an artist imagination of one of martha washington's levees.
jefferson is more democratic. session,days into the he writes, under the new order of things, there are no levees. but members are invited to dine with the president in rotation. i include this also for the information, maybe you haven't seen this, this is the blueprint for jeffersons white house -- jefferson's white house. you can see in the upper left where these dinners would have taken place. strange iss, what is only federalists were only democrats are invited at the same time. the number in a day was generally eight. when the federalists are invited, there is heads of departments, which make nine. mr. reed and myself were honored with a early invitation. werejoyed ourselves, we handsomely received and entertained. now jefferson wanted to create
succeeded ofand , having a very informal white house. the best image i could think to illustrate this is one of these wonderful portraits who is -- wonderful portraits. he depicted jefferson's study. this room right here, the southwest corner, which is now the state dining room. the idea is jefferson is trying to depoliticize these dinners. jefferson hates conflict. were to be discussed at his dinner table. my friend and colleague wrote about this. by trying to diffuse small conflicts that might corrupt from both parties, he may have
fostered a deeper division. note that jefferson's invitations to dinner were sent out under thomas jefferson, not the president of the united states. the idea being that he wanted to create this image that it was more democratic, just a gathering of friends, not a political meeting. in fact inviting people under than inn name rather the name of his office as president was an excuse for him to invite to key west. invite why he is able to just federalists or just democrats. as time goes by, he uses these dinner invitations as a way to punish members, primarily federalists. ofknow this from the words william plummer, the guy from new hampshire. william plummer decided that jefferson used friendly conversation and good food and wine to bind congressmen to his
self and from one another. the last session, they were gentlemen, who, though they called on him, were not invited to dine with him. he names some highflying federalists. it is true these gentlemen reason against some of his favorite measures. their arguments made his recommendations appear ridiculous. is styled by jefferson as abuse. as president, he vowed never to act toward an individual as if he knew what was said for or against him or his measures on the floor of the house. jefferson's behavior, at least in the way he doled out dinner invitations, stifled freedom and debate. of food, some of you may have turned in to see
what that meant, we are in the first few days of january my 1802. under your stay, we pick up with a journal. he writes, although the president has no levees, a number of federalists agreed to go to the president's house and wait upon him with the compliments of the team. we were received with politeness. that she is, having been presented this morning, was all the parade of democratic etiquette. the president invited us to go to the mammoth room and see the mammoth cheese. there, we viewed this monument of human folly as long as we pleased and then returned home. cheese, as it was called, was a gift to jefferson from the baptist community of cheshire, massachusetts. two thank jefferson for his work promoting religious freedom.
this would have been important to baptists who are a minority by this point. the cheese itself was four feet wide, 15 inches high, 1230 pounds. i don't have an image of the cheese, there is no contemporary image or any image i know of, but we have one of a famous painting. this shows the cheese that was given to andrew jackson. there is something of a tradition of this point of giving presidents cheese. this is the cheese that was presented to jackson in 1835. it was there for people to munch on for a couple of years. it looks ridiculous. but this cheese is, in fact, at least two federalist thinking, really a symbol of jeffersonianism. it is impractical.
the idea of it is driven by folly. it is a case where the idea or ideology does not always play out as planned in reality. it doesn't help at all that the cheese is presented by the leader of a baptist community. this is a congressman writing to his son a few days later after the presentation of the cheese. last sunday, the conductor of this monument of human weakness and folly to the place of his destination was introduced as , the preacher to both houses of congress. a great number of gentlemen and ladies from i know not where. the president made one in the audience. such a performance i have never heard before and i hope to never again. a horrid tone, fight for grimaces, and extravagant gestures was never heard by any decent auditory before.
shame appeared in every countenance. this is the guy who presented the cheese. whatever glamour the cheese might have added, jefferson's white house soon began to lose its luster. one year later, on new year's eve 1803, he writes again, "as we left the room, as we were passing through the great hall, i haven't to think of the mammoth cheese. i asked one of the servants if it is still in the mammoth room. i went with a member who happened to be wishing for another look at it. the president had just told us when we talked with him back 60
pounds had been taken out of the middle because of the puffing up and symptoms of decay. " plummer writes about it two years later that at that point, it was far from being good. it was last seen a year later in 1805 and it was by that point either totally consumed or some scholars think it was dumped into the river. i want to talk about the word mammoth. when he wrote, to the mammoth room and see the mammoth cheese, he put that in quotes because he was quoting jefferson verbatim. it was a novel use of the expression mammoth. i my surprise, i went to the oxford increased dictionary and saw that it credits jefferson with coining the adjective mammoth. by the time the cheese arrived in washington, people have
picked up on this terminology. mammoth cheese, and adjective for something huge, weird, gauche, serving no practical purpose. who needs a 1200 pound cheese? a politically neutral word either. would suffer word the widespread usage and impact that the word atomic, for example would have in the 20th , century. it means something. what are the origins of the adjective mammoth? the noun mammoth was a phenomenon that historians of science and social historians begin to recognize as one of thomas jefferson's hobbies. thomas jefferson imagined himself, among others, as a scientist. just like benjamin franklin. scientists had to have fur-lined
jackets. jefferson, for most of his public life, is interested in science in a way that refutes the arguments made by a french philosopher, a natural philosopher, who insisted on a theory of american degeneracy. it was an argument where he the megafauna found in the north american western hemisphere are essentially inferior to those found elsewhere in the world. they degenerate. with jefferson, it became a patriotic article of faith that americans had megafauna at least as mega as europe did. you see this in his notes on the state of virginia in 1775. he endorses an expedition beyond the mississippi in 1793 where he
specifically charges him under the head of animal history to make notes on the mammoth that he might find. the mammoth is particularly recommended to inquiries, he writes. 10 years later, he sends out lewis and clark with similar instructions on their expedition to the west. jefferson is really excited. in the summer of 1801, charles wilson peel is told about mammoth bones in the hudson river valley. by the way it is not always , called mammoth. they did not know what it was. but they did have some bones. you can see the diagram here. he hired a couple dozen men to rig up this contraption to dig out the remnants of the skeleton
of what they are calling a mammoth. jefferson is telling it mammoth, although we know today that as of 1806, thanks to the work of animists, it is not a mammoth but a new species entirely which he named the mastodon because of its teeth. the teeth are shaped like -- mammoths were found further out west. lewis finds them in the ohio valley. but the east coast valley becomes known as the mastodon. this famous painting is quickly renamed the exhumation of the mastodon. r christmas eve 1801, peel erects it in the headquarters
of the u.s. philosophical society. the skeleton ends up in independence hall, where he opens his museum eventually. you can see it in the background on the right, partially hidden by the drapery. in this famous painting called artist and his museum. despite its obvious scientific significance, the federalists follow jefferson's lead in using it as a political symbol. jefferson's patriotic search for the mythic mammoth became a byword for jeffersonian political quackery. that is a direct quote from one of nathan reed's letters. a byword for an aquatic success. within days, reed and other federalists are calling the jefferson administration the mammoth and company. plumber two years later rights how the word is used in a different context, yet with the same intent.
plummer, two years later, writes, "the baker of the navy erected an oven and made a barrel of flour into a loaf. he baked it and called it the mammoth loaf. it was carried on the shoulders of men and carried to a committee room adjoining the senate chamber. a large sirloin of roasted beef, casks of wine, cider, and whiskey were deposited in the same place. at 12:00, the chamber was crowded with people of all classes and colors from the president himself to the meanest and vilest virginia slave. mr. jefferson took his jack knife and cut and ate of the beef and bread. he compared this drunken frolic to the sacrament of the lord's supper." you can imagine what that is doing to new england federalists. the skeleton, meanwhile, the mastodon skeleton took on a life all of its own.
today, the focus in kids' books, for example, is on the search for scientific truth. while the mammoth cheese is presented to kids either as a tale about the ingenuity and community spirit of one new england village, or a triumphant exploration of the joys of rural america and the debts we owe to our history, our parents, and ourselves. before i move on -- jane: where is the mastodon today? peel's mastodon, is it in the white house now? chuck: it is not in the white house. jane: is it in the capital? chuck: it is not in the capitol. i am not sure it ever made it to washington. the mastodon that was inspiration for this use of the white mammoth it ended up in , philadelphia. eventually, peel opens a museum
in baltimore and it is there until the 1840's, when they move it over to europe to try to sell it in europe. they thought they had a buyer in france, then the revolution of 1848 kicks in. so it ends up in germany. that is the picture i showed you earlier of the full mastodon skeleton there in germany, in a museum in germany. the neat thing about the subject of my talks and everything going in washington is the mastodon is now -- you know what, jane? i have to swallow my words. the mastodon is here in washington. it was moved for the first time in 170 years to the smithsonian, where it was erected in the museum of american art for an exhibit on alexander von humboldt and the united states. they thought the skeleton
represented the highest aspirations of american science and european science meeting together. they actually brought it here. it was supposed to open this month. obviously, that did not happen. maybe the shutdown will end before we have to ship the mastodon back. it would be lovely to see. back to new year's day 1802. after taking an early dinner, eight of us set off for mount vernon. the pilgrimage to mount vernon and the politicization of george washington's memory is another major theme i wanted to touch on. it comes out in this little vignette of a congressman's visit to mount vernon. but the bigger story of memorializing george washington at this time is told in a wonderful book about the efforts to bury washington in the capitol building. so they make it from gatsby's tavern in alexandria. they arrive in mount vernon on
the second of january, the day after new year's. cutler writes to his daughter again, a servant conducted us to madam washington's room, where we were received in a very cordial manner. mrs. washington appeared as much rejoiced to receiving our visit as if we had been of her nearest connections. we were all federalists, which evidently gave her great pleasure. her remarks were frequently pointed and sometimes very sarcastic on the new order of things and the president's administration. she spoke of the election of mr. jefferson, who she considered one of the most detestable of mankind, as the greatest misfortune our country had ever experienced. her unfriendly feelings toward him were to be expected from the abuse he offered to general washington while living and his memory while deceased. after breakfast, these federalist members from massachusetts rambled about until they arrived at the venerable tomb of washington
himself. this tomb contains the remains of the great washington. this precious monument was the first object of our attention. i will not attempt to describe our feelings or the solemn boon on every countenance. the tomb opens nearly toward the river in an upright door which was locked, and the stonework is covered with earth, overgrown with tall grass. between the tomb and the bank and narrow foot paths much with trees,shaded here mrs. washington in a gloomy solitude takes her melancholy walks. here, every visitor in slow and solemn steps approaches this venerable mound, while we took precious relics of our own. i shall enclose a twig of a cypress and a leaf of the holy. -- the holly. a few months later, he writes
his daughter, because he is going down to visit the same place and pay the same kind of homage to washington and his relics. he writes, we view the garden situation before dinner and the tomb of the great washington. there was awe in the place. how disgraceful to the united states to suffer these remains after having been solicited of and granted by the relics to remain unnoticed. condemned. will not the almighty blessed of gratitude with this ungrateful country? this, jefferson, evite lori. glory.hy your loins have not have the merit of his little finger. pitiful revenge and glorious triumph. congress, in fact, did have plans to honor george washington. most of us know up the existence of a tomb below the crypt level of the capitol building. it was intended to hold washington's remains. martha gave permission before she died a few years later. but it was a moot point. jeffersonians resisted efforts
in the 1800s and periodically thereafter to have a mausoleum built to washington either of the capitol somewhere else in washington. burying him in the capitol was a moot point until that central portion of the capitol could be finished, where the tomb was created. by then, it was the early 1830's and the washington family had changed their minds and they left washington in the new tomb they had created for him in mount vernon. that is where he can be found today. but long before that, jeffersonians had other ways of consigning washington's memory to oblivion. a few months later, on the friday before washington's birthday in 1802, the house was listening to one of the crazy debates on the judiciary bill. at the end of the debate, a federalist member rises to adjourn until tuesday.
the idea was it would give workers the chance to install ventilation in the oven. that was the makeshift house chamber i showed you earlier. it was called the oven because it got quite stuffy. the federalists also wanted to remind members that it was washington's birthday, and he presumed so much respect would be paid to washington's memory that congress would do no business on that day. it was the intention of those who venerated that great character to devote the day to a celebration of the man. as soon as jeffersonian members found this out and realized what was happening, they suddenly decided, we need to meet on monday. they did not want any recognition being paid to the fact it was washington's birthday. cutler writes, have we lived to see the day that the memory of washington should be with marked contempt and so pointedly by
national representative? the federalists met that day regardless. they had dinner together in a local hotel. this again is nathan reed writing to a friend that month. in the evening, the vp of the united states, aaron burr, joined us and gave us sentiment which would prove fatal to him. it was union among all honest men. he requested it might not be published, and we have no wish to do it as we do not esteem ourselves much honored by his company. i had to throw in leslie odom as burr from the hamilton play. the last sunday of the sermon is the last sunday sermon given in congress. the house of representatives, some of the audience might know, is actually holding religious services in the house chamber, in the capitol building, because
it is the largest single chamber in the young city. the last sunday sermon of that session i have been focusing on was in may of 1802. a few months later. we know about it through cutler's journal, where he says he attended the hall. mr. parkinson preached. william parkinson was the house chaplain, but had the same kind of representation in a federalists' mind as the chief monger. nathan reed writes to a friend, our chaplain, who is an illiterate man, preaches in the same style. they disgrace the cause of religion and bring it into contempt. this was probably one motive the democrats had in choosing a chaplain. regardless of his style, you have to admit, he is a little tone deaf because he chose to preach as the subject of his sermon the biblical passage about lot leaving sodom. this is on the eve of congress
leaving washington, d.c. it is strange that neither reed nor cutler seemed to mention that with any sense of sarcasm. two days later, cutler takes a packet with reed and other members of congress. then to delaware, then to philadelphia, where he visits peel's museum and sees the skeleton of the mammoth. that is a drawing of the skeleton as it existed in the baltimore museum in the 1830's. this has been our tour of the landscape of the very first months of the first congress, the first full congress to meet in washington, and how different aspects of society, food, science, social life, the way
you memorialized people, how it is all politicized during this day when the federalists are still hanging on, although the jeffersonians have created the first major regime change in national history. that is the end of the talk. hopefully there are some questions i can answer from people. jane: we have a number of questions, chuck. and we have one piece of good news for the viewers, which is that there is an exhibition tour online with a curator of the smithsonian that you can see online the skeleton of the mastodon. it is called art, nature, and culture. that can be reached through those smithsonian website. i think we can figure out a way to send the link so you can go and see what is going on at the
smithsonian while they are under the work from home order like the rest of us. chuck: it is a wonderful tour she gives, by the way. jane: ok, great. a couple people indicated they know about it and it is a fabulous tour. it is now available online. but here is the question that a couple people asked. it seems like you have really gotten to know these people. i often have heard doris goodwin, when she is presenting one of the books she has written, whether it is lincoln or teddy roosevelt or franklin or whoever, she always talks about them as my people. she feels sort of sad to leave them when the book is finished. it sounds like you built a relationship with these individuals. can you kind of describe how does that work and how does it feel and how do you maintain the
relationship with people who lived 200 years ago? chuck: in some ways, it is easier than relationships with people in our lives today. [laughter] the reality that we know of them is the reality that comes out through letters. most people whose letters survived were important enough that they knew their letters would be saved. i'm not convinced of that stature his letters would be saved. he had a magnificent correspondence with his wife. but we have only two of her letters for the several hundreds we know she wrote because the family did not think her letters were worth keeping. there is this big blank in my heart for his wife. george thatcher, like most of the members of the first congress and i daresay most of the early political figures in
the republic, you cannot help but fall in love with them. there is a wonderful book called founding brothers instead of founding fathers. the idea of brothers being they are all equals, all bumbling along trying to figure out how to move ahead in life. they are trying to figure this out in real time. for us to look back from 200 years earlier and see what it must have been like when you did not know how the story would end, it is a real treat and an honor to have access to these letters and to be able to make sense of them. sometimes you get so embedded in them that you forget there is a post-1802. in this case, i made very few references to anything that happens after 1802, 1803. kent bowie, my colleague, is famous for saying if you ask him anything about anything after 1803, he is like, that is science fiction to me. i don't know what you are talking about.
because the real world ends when these letters end. it is a wonderful experience. even amateur historians, people interested in genealogy, the first thing you should do is get your hands on the letters, then provide some context. read secondary literature and so on. but start with the letters because it will provide the passion that is the fuel of historical research. jane: one of the questions a couple people asked is, is there anything in the letters that talked about how they traveled from washington, d.c. to alexandria? was that a difficult trek? chuck: yes, because there are no 14th street bridges. you don't have the traffic either. but it involved a ferry at this point in time. if you left in the morning
around noon time, when they were done visiting jefferson at the white house at noon time, you would be at gatsby's by the evening. you had to allow a full overnight trip to mount vernon if you were going to make that pilgrimage. we know many of them did. as i said toward the end of my talk, it is mostly overland at first, until you get to the bay. then you might want to take the water route up the bay. it is a very interesting thing that comes out in the letters. today, when we write letters, we don't often write about how we get somewhere because we assume the recipient will be experiencing the same thing. when you find references to travel, it is kind of a big deal. and it is always enlightening because we are always surprised at how difficult it was. i think i can honestly say if most of the audience had to confront what these people confronted just in the course of
getting to work if you were a congressman, you probably would not do it. you would probably just stay at home. in george thatcher's case, the distance from home was a deterrent for him coming back to congress. he was always complaining about how far away from home he was. he was doing it when he was in new york. that was one third of the distance to washington, d.c. from maine. so you can imagine. jane: one of the other questions, someone was asking about the religious services. were they held in the house chamber? is that what they called the oven? where were these services held? chuck: the references i found to it in the letters, they refer to it as the hall. i am thinking, because a congress representative is using that expression, that he is referring to the oven, which is bigger than the senate chamber. i am thinking that is where they were held.
there was a congressional chaplain from the very first week of the very first congress, but they opened the religious services to all different denominations. so we saw, for example, leland. we know there were episcopalians. the people who were speaking during these religious services in the capitol were not technically servants of the government. they were just utilizing government space in a communitarian sense. this is the biggest room in the city so we are going to use it. i would be careful to say it is government endorsing any particular religion or even the idea of religion. just keep that in mind when you read about religious worship in the early capitol building. jane: how long did those services continue? they continued through
jefferson's presidency. chuck: they did. i don't know. i don't know. something for me to look into. i imagine when other space became available, certainly churches were being built at this time. there were churches already. first of all, a catholic would never be seen outside of a church sanctuary. so we know that catholics were not doing it. but there is a catholic church in georgetown, for example. i can't remember when the first catholic parish in the city of washington starts, but it is not long after this period we are talking about. at some point, they do move out of the capitol building. i don't know when. jane: chuck, one of the questions -- we have a couple folks who are still interested in the cheese. we have two questions. one is maybe not quite in your venue, but nevertheless. it was called the cheshire cheese because it came from cheshire.
but was it cheddar cheese, or what is the relationship between cheshire cheese and cheddar cheese? chuck: i don't know. they both begin with the same letter. jane: there you go. chuck: that is the only connection i can think of. it was called the cheshire cheese also, which makes the expression mammoth cheese all the more pointed. someone went to the trouble to call it mammoth cheese. as i said to coin the word at the same time. but it was also known as the cheshire cheese because it came from cheshire, and it was cheddar. that is all i really know about it. maybe cheddar lasts longer. maybe that is why they opted for cheddar. i don't know. jane: your friend has been enjoying the talk and sends you his greetings. but he has a very important question. he said is that where they came , up with the idea of calling the president the big cheese?
chuck: dick, you would ask that. [laughter] i don't know when that expression started, but i am probably not the only one who is going to google after this is over and finding out the origins of that expression. maybe it is. it would make sense. and i am not sure that jefferson would not appreciate it, to be honest. jane: one of the people ask, were the religious services open to the general public, or just for members of congress? point, itt was the was the general public. it was a public service to the community to have them in the , capitol. it was intended as a public service, so yes. the community was invited. jane: you noted in your comments that jefferson was not very
conflict adverse. but on the other hand, it appears he was very much in conflict both in life and death with the federalists. how do you reconcile those two things? chuck: well, jefferson's attempts to suppress conflict, it never works. we know this in our personal lives as well. it is going to come out sideways one way or another. jefferson, in avoiding conflict, and he would do it in his cabinet meetings as well. stories of how some of his cabinet would start fighting with each other and he would paul madison aside who is his chief of staff and say, -- pull madison aside, who is his chief of staff, and say, make sure that doesn't happen again. he liked having his ducks all lined up to the point where he is frustrated that there is no allowance made for debate because all the votes are rearranged.
jefferson made sure, with john randolph in roanoke and some of the others, all jeffersonians at this point, that as soon as the orders came down from the jefferson white house, all you had to do was vote on it, and that was it. you are suppressing conflict, but in the very act of suppressing it, you are not acknowledging other people's input. when people are not involved in the process, they double down. we know this from the way politics is done today. i would say jefferson was a failure at -- certainly did not make any attempt to reconcile, but he was also a failure to kind of erase conflict. said, he is actually aggravating conflict by not
giving a voice. jane: we will have two more questions because we could carry this on for the rest of the day and be fascinated, but we are trying to be respectful of your time and everyone else's time. one question was, has anyone ever done an analysis of the people who ran for congress and didn't win, and who were they and what was the context of those campaigns when you talk about experience in defeat? chuck: in this period? in this period. jane: yes. chuck: i would like to think of myself as well read on the secondary literature, but you will find only snippets. there is no systematic way of looking at how many lawyers lost reelection. i did it with my thatcher book. i did a detailed analysis of who
he ran against, what the issues were, and why that person ultimately lost to george thatcher. it would be so difficult. it would be lovely if it happened. there are great websites i want to encourage people to go on. america votes and the american antiquarian society. it is free. it will tell you every vote recorded for every office, from local dogcatcher to president of the united states up through the 1820's. it will give you every candidate, whether the candidate is known outside his own family. and if you got a vote, he is on that list in that website. it is fascinating. jane: you have to love our audience because they are better than google. chuck: [laughter] jane: we have an answer to one of the questions. this is about the church services that were moved to
statuary hall, that began in statuary hall in 1807 and were there through 1857. as the first catholic to preach in the capitol was bishop john anglin, the bishop of north and england,olina, -- john the bishop of north and south carolina, who preached there on january 8, 1826 for two hours. chuck: wow. jane: now you know something you did not know before. chuck: i would bet that is an episcopalian bishop and not a catholic bishop. jane: it says the first catholic according to shane mccarthy. chuck: mccarthy should know. jane: he put his name behind it. chuck, a couple people asked about your book. could you just hold it up again so people can see it? chuck: my baby. jane: there, this is the book. it is available through the united states capitol historical society. if you go to our website, there
is a shop feature and you can get all kinds of wonderful memorabilia of the capitol. we have christmas ornaments made with marble from the capitol, we have books like chuck's books. if you want to get the book, come join us if you want to be part of the continuing exploration of capitol history. we hope you become a member and supporter of the capitol historical society. thank you very much. we appreciate the depth of your knowledge. and the fact that you shared it so well. chuck: it was fun. thank you. jane: thank you, take care. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] spirit of ghetto 2ema, a documentary march mark the 50th anniversary of the bombings and features stories of the survivors and a family making sense of the tragedy. there is a preview. i the school children and have been working in the
building about 10 minutes when a sudden flash of light made me think there was a bomb in the building. the students ran away and were scattered. i went to the riverbank to see what was happening. whilestanding there for a , four or five of the students run away saw me and wave their arms yelling, teacher, help me. the image of those students will never leave my mind, running ,ver to me with their hair wild
so i jumped into the water. , looked into the water countless dead bodies were carried away by the water, some sinking. then floating. these paintings are not based on what i have seen, but are images of what i imagined hiroshima harbor would be, filled with bodies that came from the rivers. how did the bones at the bottom of the harbor feel? i painted while thinking of things like that. whether they would be sad or
, whether they would be angry at the people who dropped the atomic bomb. i would think of these things while imagining and painting the bones at the bottom of the harbor. i don't know where most of my students disappeared to, but i could imagine their bodies floating down some river and ending up at the bottom of hiroshima harbor. ♪ >> watch the full program
tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern, 7:00 pacific, on american history tv. the japanese emperor announced japan's surrender on august 15, 1945, after the august 6 and august 9 bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki. the surrender ceremony took usse september 2 aboard the missouri, ending world war ii. american history tv and c-span's washington journal will be live to look at the strategic situation in world war ii's pacific theater. president truman's decision to use the new weapons and the impact of these atom bombs. live ont 6, we will be c-span from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m., gets include the author of twilight of the gods, war in the western pacific, 1944-19 45, and president humans grandson
dashcam president truman's grandson. and president truman's grandson. >> asked, it is russian on how the edges dealt all right. -- leaving the supreme court to make the ultimate decisions on civil rights questions. this is part of a daylong conference on the separation of powers. it is just under one hour. >> our next panel is called uneven history, separation of powers and the struggle for equal rights. our moderator is ron. he is a senior editor and adjunct professor at american