scholars look at its impact on education and housing and how we still live with the legacy of the decision. we'll also look at the life and legacy of the first african-american supreme court justice, thurgood marshall and his impact on u.s. history. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. ♪♪ noose park service historian

mark moloy talks about several myths around the 1776 battle of trenton including wouldn't the hessians, german mercenary soldiers, really drunk during george washington's attack. the office of historic alexandria in partnership with emerging revolutionary war hosted this talk and provided the video. >> our next speaker is mark molloy. he's an historian currently working for the national park service in virginia. he is the author of "victory or death, the battle of trenton and princeton," december 25th, 1776, january 3rd, '77, one of the inaugural volumes in the emerging rev war book series. he holds an undergraduate degree in history from the college of william & mary and undergraduate degree in history from george mason university. worked at numerous history sites and archaeological digs for the past 15 years and is an avid

revolutionary war re-enactor. i'm looking forward to drunk he isians in ten critical days and everybody get close to your computer because this is an interactive session so watch up for fun things to pop up on your screen, and with that i'll turn it over to mark. >> all right. can you hear me, liz? >> yeah. >> excellent. thanks for joining me here today. like liz said, i figured, you know, hindsight is 2020. if only we pushed this -- this -- this will symposium a few months back we might actually have been able to do it in person, but that's fine because we are doing it virtually, i figure, this might actually be a great opportunity to get a little interaction between you all and the audience and myself, and, yeah, no. i wrote a book about battle of trenton and princeton, the ten crucial days campaign and when

we were originally talking about myths of the revolution and as i started looking through the myths and stories of this critical campaign, when i found looking through thumb is that -- were in fact true. some of these things happened and i'm wright about some of these amazing deeds, and so what i'm going to do today is i got 14 of these myths and misconceptions and i'm going to pose them to you as questions and then you'll have the opportunity, what i'll do when you ask a questions you should be able to see something pop up on your screen saying with a question and then an either yes or no answer as far as whether

it's true or not and the great thing about this it's anonymous so, you know, you don't have to feel like you don't know the right answer. you can just kind of say whether it's a miss or whether you think it's a true event. actually that helps me because i can kind of get a better understanding of, you know, what poem think is true and what people think isn't true, and i think it will be a little fun, so five. i'm going to share my screen here. >> we'll start off by talking about what i consider, first of all, you know, we're going to be talking about myths and legends really, so you'll see the definitions here, a myth, a widely held but false belief or idea. so these are things that then kind of are manufactured over

the year and then legends which are a traditional story, sometimes popularly regarded as historical but they are unauthenticated, and so these are, you know, some of these things we don't know the answers to because trying to prove a negative can be obviously very difficult. you can see the image there and on the blog post specifically about talking about a misconception. you know, the revolutionary war and founding of america is kind of awash in all kinds of misconceptions as we're seeing throughout day today and the ten crucial days in trenton and princeton is really no different, and i'm going to start off by talking about the biggest touchstone that neighbor has in in the campaigns of trenton and princeton and that's this image that you just saw. washington crossing the riff and

seen this in historytics books and on classroom walls. if you go up to the site where washington crossed the delaware river in pennsylvania and new jersey, you'll see actually a sculpture of it. you'll see it on prints, coffee mugs and driving through you'll see it on mailboxes. it's coined of one of the most famous and recognizable images, not just of the american revolution, but real all of american history, and it really is an amazing painting, and that's going to go and bring us to our very first myth or misconception and that's the question of is this an historically accurate representation of the event of crossing the delaware so you all should see a question just pop up and we'll give you ten seconds here and go ahead and answer that question and hit submit and we'll give it a

couple of seconds, and we'll see what the results pop up other once we get the input. 94% believe that this is not an accurate representation. only 6% do. very good. okay. >> this is not an accurate portrayal. the close-up here, the sun is royce and in the middle of the blags it was snowing and sleeting st. anne terrible weather and that's absolute incorrect. you'll look at the water and eel see phinney ice slides moving

down this. probably resembles more what the ice looked like over on the eyes. the which had of the this will is more likely that with the wide. >> in in delaware, been that number -- you'll notice behind him an african-american. there were actual african-americans that were -- that took part in this campaign, but lloyd wanted to include an african-american. he was an abolitionist and he wanted to show all the different types of people that came together in the american cause. you also see this figure who is somewhat androgynous. the idea was to also show -- although we don't know of any women who actually participated in the actual campaign, he wanted to show that women supported the american cause during this time period.

in the background you'll see horses and or tillries on other boats. this is true. they did cross over 18 pieces of artillery and numerous horses to get over the river. you can imagine what that would have been like on a snowy night, and you can also see over on the right some men actually walking on the ice as well, and that is true, too. at one point the river does get so frozen over that people would have been able to cross over on foot. here in the center, there's an american flag flying this. version of the american flag wasn't adown theed until the next coupler and the main you see -- the canwest president of the united states and washington, he wouldn't skont up

on a boot going across the river, and that may be true but what coined of boats were they using? weren't using the row boats. they were use the cars to shovel coal and most would be standing up because they are so large and also squeeze as many guys in the boats aase this could. one of the unique acrad things, the are sort -- that's an exact replica. on display as the his core yog. previously he had a different scored that he was carrying. there's a picture of george washington that shows the sword. that's pretty amazing, yeah, so this painting you see is not an

accurate, historically accurate representation of the crossing. now, that -- that became -- other people are going to try to do images of washington cross the delaware after the extreme success that this painting had, even immediately. this was all painted -- that painting was painted in 1850 and the men crossing here and washing on horseback this day and -- we actually did a -- here he is on a material barge. so he may have crossed other and the problem is we don't have that many, on the. -- you'll be artistic and though this is notties or call accurate

is the. or the ref russians in europe in 20 it will. he was trying to garner support and use -- with wind beating in their faced able tomorrow to frrm pull that from the jaws of defeat. that is accurate. this campaign, the battle for trenton and for instanceton, is going to be a defining moment of the american revolution, and it was against all odds in and washington and his band of men were successful. this is probably the lowest ebb of the cause of the revolution and i do think it's still a very valuable representation. it's inspiring, and hopefully it gets people to want to learn more about the campaign.

my biggest complaint is that this becomes so famous that people often think of the crossing, and a lot of people don't know what he did -- there were have you -- that had to be wan and washington is being -- do the is first version hang today in the metropolitan museum of art? >> you'll see the question pop up and now there are many different copies of this painting that have -- have gone around and like i said you'll see prints of this all over. there's actually -- i think it was mark twain who actually said that, you know, this painting became so universal, it's almost in every household across the country in the 19th centuries, so leer we go, all right. so we've got our results.

27. >> kind of a trick question. if you go -- if you do go to the mess today it was by eman offul -- it's a massive painting. it just steps away from contractsby tarner and this support an emergency. we have a photograph of it. to have the towel. it was actually very tied by --

so the original, original, does not exist anymore and there's a os in it. the same size in washington park in minutes men. heroes another question. did washington cross the delaware river to. >> seems like it should be a pretty big no-brainer. what do you guys think? i'll let you guys go ahead and answer that. we'll be clothing cleese hoo to tensioned and this is something have style, soy almost 30 boston recall. about 5 in -- and.

he didn't cross dry contracts. >> christmas eve is when all the merriment and joy happens and washington actually crosses on the negotiate of december 25th, 1776 zoe when he attacked the hessians the next day, it's actually january 26th, 1776 so common misconception. this is a good question. did the weather happen to align perfectly for the american cause during this campaign? you know, did it support his army almost perfect. yeah, you know, in finding a way

and did the cut. how ago we're sgrrnl i know what you're saying. they had to cross in a blizary. it was snowing, sleeting, raining, and how do that help their cause at all? washington set time to attack and he was going to cross to delaware and he had a track nine miles down and there were two other divisions that would cross the river and attack the hessians. those other two columns can't even get across the river because downriver the ice builds up so bad they can't even get across, so how does this help the americans? well, those other divisions go the aos. may have.

the weather so bad that the hessian patrolled, they actually came in so they weren't paroling that negotiate because of the weather and washington is able to spring this surprise the day after christmas and totally surprises the hessians and was able to capture over 900 of them so the weather -- that terrible weather helped washing fn that night and then when the british find about this, general cornwallis is going to gather up as many troops as he can and attack washington's guys at trenton. guess what, the weather gets so warm that all the frozen roads and everything, they turned to mud, and >> there's artillery and they get yoks doug. in can i have the next battle,

they -- then what happens is the temperature plummets so, so deep that all those roads freeze over and washington is able to ma tour of all of his troops out of trenton and go around the british flank and attack his rear guard at princeton. so it -- it just so happened that the weather is going to actually fall directly in place and will support washington's troops and slow down the british and really interesting. one of those it's got to be a myth, but, no, that's actually helped the american cautious you know. it's amazing how some of this happens, you know, and just pretty interesting. all right. let's see. did many of the continental soldiers lack shoes during this campaign? now, this is a story that i see constantly.

they talk about, you know, barefoot continentals, not being -- lack proper footewear but is this a matt, something made up to make the continentals look more brave than perhaps they actually were, or do you think that this was actually a fact that they were looking shoes, an important thing? you can see the image of this monument up there showing one of the continentals lacking shoes. we've got about 65% of you say they did and 35% of you said they did not. this is a fact. washington's men were terribly undersupplied, and you can see it throughout journals, diaries and all sorts of things of just how much guys were lacking shoes. one of washington's aides actually writes that you can follow the path of the continental army from blood in the snow from the men who lacked

shoes. just shows you and, you know, when i was up refrpg the book in april walk your shoes off. it boggles my mind to understand how these guys went through it and also what drove them to do this. it really was a belief in, you know, whatever their motivations were, it had to be pretty substantial in order to undergo these deprivations. one of my favorite stories is charles wilson peele, the painter, who painted many of the portraits of washington. he was actually a pennsylvania soldier and his brother was in a maryland regiment. he's on the delaware river, and you can see washington's army come by, and this guy breaks out from the ranks and he red sox bedrachled.

he has sores all over the place and charles realized this was his actual brother talking to him. so, yeah, the -- it's no myth and an actually fact and one that's difficult to comprehend about how they were able to put up with that. okay. let's talk about hessians. were the hessians blood-thirsty mercenaries? you see the picture here, one of the most famous hessians, this is christopher walken portraying the headless hessian from the movie "sweepy hollow." you can see his teeth are filed down into the harp pieces and --

and was this a fact? were these hessians these kinds of monsters in 90% of you think no. only 10% say yes, and most of you, yes, are correct. these were not blood-thirsty mercenaries. actually hessians isn't the best description for them because usually hessians come from a region in germany where many of the soldiers became, from but there's many other german proeps and -- now these men, you'll see the term mercenary being used quite a bit. a better description of them would be auxiliary so they are fighting for their prince, and their prince has been contract out by the king of england to be send over to america to fight in this war. this isn't the only war. these were professional soldiers

that coined of fought all over europe and they were renowned in some of the best disciplines, most professional troops in the world and they come to america and you can imagine already, i mean, just the cultural difference that these men were german. many didn't speak english. the greineders. all the soldiers in trenton in 1776 were hessians and many of them were greineders, so they had a large captain. if you will go to a re-enactment, either trenton or hessian, you can see how intimidating they are with -- you can -- and there were cases of them taking liberties. at the battle of new york, the hessians overrun some of the americans and bayonet, many of the wounded americans and there

are stories that they actually bayonetted some of the riflemen to treat and left their bodies hanging there, and -- and some of these things, yes, there were atrocities committed, but then the stories grow and grow and grow to where there are stories throughout newspapers to talk about how the hessians were blood-thirsty, that they -- and such terrible marauders. the british even talk about the he isians -- and they did do a lot of from the looting across about -- there were actually many germans on the american side, too, and we're going to get into what happens, but it's interesting. after the battle of trenton, washington captured over 900 of these men, and it -- it's amazing because after what happened, some of the men who were culled and they this

surrendered and committed atrocities themselves and there were no reprisal for. people come out -- they wanted to see for themselves what the he ises look like. many of them end up in pennsylvania, in member rant -- let's go to another one. leading up to the value of trenton it's a havy -- rp all

kiss prorgsed. so if that's true or not. you may have heard a lot about washington or spies and there's a very popular narrative that washington used a lot of spies. there's actually a plaque for him there in new jersey for his work as a spy. what is do true? it. 70% said yes and 30% say no. this is a enough one -- now, proponents of this story, the john honeyman, the sorry is -- that he inlittle tates, the --

then show many -- washington interviews him at night alone and then washington leaves him imprisoned with a guard, but he was able to escape and makes it back to trenton and tells raoul and the hessians about his terrible ordeal and then said don't worry about washington. his guys are doing across the river, and they are not going to be able to attack. spreads all this misinformation and then -- and then, of course, battle of trenton happens and they are all captured. we don't have any evidence from the time period that this happened. john honeyman was a real person and he was known as a tory. now was he a spy or not? now, descendants and family history and tradition says he was which is after the war he's not one of the tories that is kicked out of the state and

property is compensated and he does well. he was a spy and helped washington and so he was rewarded for that, but there is no documentation to back this up. washington was known as a spymaster. didn't use many spies to spread misinformation and gather intelligence. this could very well be true. this is one of those with no authentication. it's really up to who you believe and whether you think that this was such a -- a secret operation that they were able to keep it secret, even 250 years later but it makes for a great story for sure. >> all right. the big question, were the hessians drunk on the morning after christmas? >> this is -- you know, we've all heard the story and the hessians were enjoying their rum

and having a good time totally unprepared when the americans hungover and drunk and stumbling around. my favorite meme is crossing the delaware, americans, we will cross the delaware in your sleep and kill you while we're drunk. is this true snornt a third of you believe it's true and two-thirds believe it is not true. now, if you looked at the title of this, it was drunk hessians and other myths. this is a myth. this is not true. the hessians were actually quite the opposite. again, they were professional soldiers. they were under constant attacks from different militia forced and nearly always on -- always on -- on and red for an attack. the night of christmas actually,

like i said the snow forced them into -- forced their pickets in, but they will slope that night with their uniforms on and their muskets ready to go. now, their officer johann raoul was known to have been celebrating that night at the home of a loyalist abraham hunt, and it's likely he had a few drinks that night but was he drunk or hung over the next day? no. were they taken by surprise? yes. and there's actually an american fight for john greenwood where he swears not a single headsian was drunk the next morning. where does this story come from? right after the embarrassing defeat for the crown forces many of the british are the first to say, well, they were a bunch of drunk yards. they couldn't handle it so the story starts spreading almost immediately after the fact. there were hessians who were known for looting, and there's some hessians down there at

mt. holly who were actually drinking that night, but at trenton, no, they were prepared and ready, but raoul, you know, like i said, they were not drunk and it's grown from there where it's become a common myth about the battle. let's see. what's the next one? was colonel raul warned the night before that an attack was coming? now, you might have remembered cl story. a loyalist from pennsylvania makes it over to trenton gets a note and has a hand of cards and puts the note in his pocket and doesn't pay attention and the next morning he's killed in the battle and as he's dying he reaches the nothing and only if he had read it he could have prevented this whole disaster --

60% say yes and 40% say no so this is kind of, you know, was he warned? yes, he was warned. there was -- his superiors were telling him to fortify trenton. they were telling him to get ready for an attack. raul, who performed very ably at the battle of new york actually doesn't build any fortification. he says that he -- you know, he's very overquestion didn't. he says these are a bunch of country clowns and let them come at me. we'll give them the bayonet but as far as the story from the notes. this story doesn't appear until almost 100 years after the event. one of the first role what we would consider a history of this event was written by a man named william striker in the 19th century and he published things like the fact that they were drunk and other traditions that have been passed down orally and includes this story, so maybe it

was true, but when i -- because raul, unless he was german and wrote it down in german, that's the only way he'd be able to read it, and that's really the first documented time that he had this note, but, you know, again, it's up to who you want to me of from history. did the crown forces outnumber the americans in this this is something that have a necessary as talking about, did this outnumber the americans in this kun pain, you know? like i said, that smaumpd band of guys coming up across the river to attack larger gores.

isn't that the case? were they outnumbered? all right. so we've got two-thirds of you think they were outnumbered and only a third think were not. now, this is interesting because actually the americans outnumber the british at almost every engagement during this campaign. now washington did suffer a massive defeat at the battle of new york just before this campaign. his army in august 1776 was about 23,000, 24,000 men. as he's retreating across new jersey that winter, and getting to the river and people who couldn't fight, he had 6 on the southern side, in the pittish,

hosts it all out. it's under -- when washington difficulties up his forces, the only guess in whet icross it -- he's actually going to outnumber the hessians. they he is has -- in this case he had more numbers. in the second battle of trenton he had even numbers with the british. there's both 6,and 7,000 men and in the battle of princeton he vastly outnumbered the british. he has 6,000 or 7,000 guys, and the british have only about 1,500 men, so in each of these events washington was able to basically set it up so that his men are in a numerically superior advantage. now most of his men don't have as much experience or they are

not as good soldiers as often as the well disciplined or trained hessians. washington is always trying to be a numerically superior -- during this battle the americans received no death in the battle of trenton. if you wamp the movie, it's a good movie, lots of inaccuracies and it still shows the cross in the battle of trenton. many and i -- there was nobody on the continental nobody in the

continental army died in the battle of trenton. covered for to five. it was james ron row who was opportunity the bey will --. if you want to count those you can say a couple of guys died in the campaign on the way that. the hessians lose 20 men outsight and 880 are wounded and like i said over 900 are captured sews a huge disparity and a huging rightry. who happens to these. did nearly all the hessians go back to woerp -- you -- we think

of expeditionary forces, you know, that the united states sends other places, the. but what about the he isians were they'lly. once you gets -- are grrk. most of them are going to return and about 60% of them go back but a large percentage of them are tomorrow nrnlg it. many like it other and will melt here. a lot of people have hessian an tloiflts. one.

hessians had nrngs. okay. we're getting chose to the end here. can washing top right up and come been po yours and survivor unskrurd? rr glurm. fans in washington, d.c. and washington y2k -- can washington actually line up that ghourmts nrmgts -- if you think pass thrts ever washing mc -- or is this in football naushlg. so about 50% of you say question and 40% of you say no.

this is in fact trow. washington. on the battled field there the americans were being overrun. they are being driven back and a couple of artillery pieces are holding off the 17th regiment a foot, and it looks for a moment like this whole campaign is going to break down and who rides in, washington on his horse. he rides right up into the fleeing men. he says parade with us, my brauf fellas, there's but a handful of the enemy and we will have them directly. he rides out and starts leading the men forward and orders a fire and then rides up in between the british and the american line and we know that this is true. actually alexandria and colonel john fitzgerald, who was with washington at this time, told this story to washington's adopted grandson, and he says washington rode up in between the lines and -- and gave

another order to fire, and at this moment the british leveled their muskets and washington between the lines, both sides opened fire and fitzgerald puts the hat over his eyes so he doesn't see washington cut down in front of him and he lifts his hat up and the smoke clears and there's washington unscathed riding up and down the line, and this was repeated throughout the army. there's actually a great letter from a pennsylvania soldier who wrote to his wife a few days after who said when i saw him brave all the dodgers of the field, his important life hanging as it were by a single hair with is a now deaths flying around him, believe me i thought not of myself, and the americans are able to level their bayonets, charge forward and drive the british from the field, and this moment was so important in the washington story that -- that, you know, he almost becomes a hero overnight, and solidified a bond between washington as men there at princeton that he was willing to do anything for the cause, and they were willing to follow him anywhere.

all right. and so last question for you. was this the most significant military campaign in the war? now, this is partly a -- a -- this is partly an opinion piece, i would really hope that you all get a chance or copy of my book verdict/death and if you go with our publisher you get 20% off if you order him for attending this symposium today, but this is ultimately the crux, how important were these battles? did this-was this the turning point? was this the most significant campaign? all right. most of you are my friends here. 60% say yes and 40% say no. i'm biased and i think this is the most significant event. this is the lowest ebb of the american cause. everything looks like it could

be over. ifworkton is defeated here, if he loses one of these battles. if his army is crushed and if his men desert there is no george washington. i'm a strong believer there's no united states of america. he's going to prove invaluable in the rest of the war of independence. he's going to prove invaluable in the creation of this nation hand this was -- this was really a crucial moment for him and a crucial moment for the whole country. of course, you know, we don't know what would happen if he did not happen, but i can say in my book, you look at historians throughout the 19th and 20th and 21st century, they constantly are talking about how significant this is. james mcpherson, the civil war historian, says it's the most significant campaign in american history. that's a civil war historian saying, that and i think it's best summed up by a british historian in the 19th century who said it can be doubted whether so few men in such a

short span of time had more lasting or longer effects on the history of the world, and i truly believe that. i think that that's why, you know, if you get a chance, one of the things about the book you focus on the places and you can go see the parks, the battlefield and the footprint of heroes. if you have never been up there, you're in luck. we are doing a tour in november of these battlefields, check out emerging revolutionary war to sign up for tickets for that led by yours truly and you can go see some of those events so just a really great place and, you know, i encourage everybody to look more into this campaign because it's a fascinating history to be sure. so at that i will go ahead and stop sharing my screen. and -- and if we have any questions, i want to make sure

everybody gets their full lunch break so we've got five minutes. i'll go ahead and turn it over to liz. >> thank you so much, mark, for that really great presentation. i really appreciated the polls and that was super fun to -- to play with on the back end. >> yeah. we have some nice -- nice comments in the chat about some experiences that -- of touring the washington crossing a few years ago. one of our attendees pointed to the bridge that he likes to ask tourists why washington didn't use the bridge. he likes to see the reaction of those folks and then perhaps this will be a conversation for the panel or next year's symposium, but a presentation about the weather and just the impact of the weather throughout -- throughout the war. >> yeah. now, you know, that is a -- that's spot on because it's amazing, because, yeah, washington's army is almost crushed there at brooklyn and it

just so happens this a fog descends over the east river that, you know, hides his men shuttling across the east river. yeah. whether, you know, it's amazing, and you really see where many of the men who participated in this including washington attribute some of their victories to divine providence, and it's hard reading the actual event and seeing that and saying in -- in arguing against that, and i think it was stonewall jackson who said in a different war. he who does not see the hand of god in this is truly blind, and you see something similar to that with -- with the revolution because -- because, yeah, how did this happen that it just so happens that it falls directly in place and helps the american cause along the way. it's hard to argue against divine providence. >> and another note, i believe john honeywell, his house is still around in griggstown, new jersey so i don't know if that's in your book or not. >> it's not in the book, but,

yeah, i'm familiar with that so that's great. >> cool. >> so we have a question and feel free again to drop questions in the chat. that's also where a link to mark's book is and the code to use if you would like to purchase it online, it is a signed copy so make sure you buy that online with your 20% off so our question is is it true that the american soldiers go the into the hessian rum supply and were the ones who may have been drowning? >> that's fantastic, and, yes, that is true. so, yeah, the americans, yeah, do break into the rum supply and, yeah, there are reported events from the time period that, yeah, some of the american soldiers are getting drunk and, yeah, you can imagine having not slept all night and crossed anites-choked delaware river and marched nine miles in a blizzard and fought a battle and they were well-entitled to a

celebration and this is the moment when washington makes the decision to march his army and all the hessians back nine miles and cross the delaware river later that day and get back. he didn't want his entire army to get drink and basically be sitting ducks for the other british and hessian soldiers there in the area, so, yeah, it is kind of interesting that it's almost on top of his head as to -- as to who is drinking on that christmas of 1776. >> well, i don't see any more questions in the chat. i know we had someone raise their hand, but if you type in your question in our chat bar then we'll certainly pass that along. a good trivia question. how many times washington crossed the delaware. >> yeah. >> yeah, in -- that's something. washington, yeah, he crosses the delaware to go attack. he crosses the delaware back and then spends a few days in

pennsylvania and then, yeah, he's going to like cross again back over to -- to set up and, of course, he crosses in delaware and, yeah, he's going back and forth all the time, and, yeah, you can imagine on that weather in the middle of december would have been pretty amazing, and then, yeah. if you go up to the area today you're also seeing up nearby our other ferries that washington is going to cross, you know, in later campaigns when they go from valley forge to attack the british at the battle of monmouth more than a year later, so, yeah, washington crosses many rivers, but it's -- it's that crossing on christmas day that becomes the -- the most important because of the events that followed in the battle of trenton and princeton. >> well, i think one of the questions for our panel in the afternoon that we'll have to drop for rob and phil is you and vanessa can do a fight club over is the southern campaign or

trenton and princeton the most important parts of the revolutionary war so i look forward to seeing the -- that banter back and forth between what potentially the answer to that question would be. >> yeah. >> and i got a foot in both things. i'm actually working on a back right now about charleston, south carolina and the revolution. i do not discount -- well, we'll wait until the panel. >> for the afternoon fun. so unless there's any other questions from our participants out there on the zoom, then -- then if you can think of one, you can always certainly email me and then we can pass that along to marc as well to get that answer, but in the meantime, i think we'll -- we'll end here, so thanks again, mark, for a real great presentation. tonight on american history tv, a lock into a supreme court landmark case, plessy versus ferguson which solidified the

separate but equal doctrine and provided legal protection to segregation laws passed by the state. scholars look at its impact on education and housing and how we still live with the legacy of the decision. we'll also look at the life and legacy of the first african-american supreme court justice hur good marshal and his impact on u.s. history. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. ♪♪ weekends on c-span 2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's story and on sundays "book tv" brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more, including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? >> no. it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers to create way-ify enabled listings

so that families can get anything. >> comcast along with television companies support c-span2 is a public service. >> during the revolutionary war, colonists took up arms to try to gain their independence from england. however, there was a, poverty population that opposed the quest for independence and organized rebellions throughout the colonies. up next, travis shaw looks at the causes of these uprights and how these loyalists may have been misunderstood by history. mr. shaw is the education director for the virginia piedmont heritage area. the office of historic alexandria in partnership with emerging revolutionary war hosted this talk and provided the video. >> our first speaker is travis shaw. travis is the current director of education for the virginia piedmont heritage area and brings in two decades of experience in the field of historic preservation,