tv Caroline Janney Ends of War CSPAN November 10, 2021 9:58pm-11:01pm EST
something that you didn't know about the figures. allen, we so appreciate your time and i wish you could have joined us in person, but best of luck and thank you, best of luck on the rest of your tour. >> thank you so much, claire, i thank you monique for enabling this, thank you to the audience. i hope to see you all again sometime soon in the wonderful city of atlanta.
per. >> watch this program >> now, our guest today i want to introduce our guest right now is professor caroline janney. and her book is, the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox. let's take a quick look at it. we're gonna have so many things to share with you. this is going to be a fun show. 'ends of war: the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox'comes to you from university of north carolina press, whom we thank for helping get professor caroline janney on this program with us. and for publishing this fine
book we are selling it to you in the first addition of three of the thirst first 31 pages. we'll share some with you during the course of this conversation. and we're sending this first addition copy of'ends of war'to you with a custom abraham lincoln signed book plate. i want to thank you professor for janney signing those pleats and sending them back to us. folks at home, let me tell you a little bit about caroline janney. she is the [inaudible] professor in history of the american civil war and that director of the john l center for civil war history at the university of virginia. that's a lot. i know that job. >> that's a long. title >> as a job, is into? >> it's a wonderful job. it couldn't be better. >> and the namesake on your job
is really one of the and heralded heroes of civil war history. had collected for years and years and years, priceless pieces of american history. and i guess they reside with you at the university now? >> right. the special collections we now have somewhere between 30 and 40,000 letters and diaries that mr. now had collected. an invaluable resource. we are just beginning to dig through this and figure out the many many things that he collected. i'll make a picture, one of the things that we are going to be doing is digitizing the collection and making available worldwide for everyone >> wonderful. that's what liverman did with their collection which was also the result of a collector going out and doing what they love to
do. now i will do for a pitch, if you want to collect stuff is a perfect example of what can happen if you were this obsession of yours it is valuable it's not just you it's a really valuable thing. great job, congratulations. and i know you love doing it and you have all this great stuff to work with. quickly for the folks, caroline janney is also the author of remembering the civil war. reunion and the limits of reconciliation. and burying the dead but not pass the, ladies memorial association and the loss cause. when i see that book of professor janney, of course i think of having carrie cox on the show just a few months ago.
she did know common ground. of course, there's clearly robert e. lee statue in richmond. but of course karen had also done dixie starr. ofthis topic of women, southern women in the post war is crucial to understanding understanding the civil war. >> right, the work that karen does dovetails i think, nicely together with my work. the monument or the former lee monument that the daughters of the confederacy rallied around, in fact it was the woman i worry about in that first book. the memorial association women who were part of the initial plan to build that monument starting in 1870, after lee death. and we, that's a different book. >> if somebody wants to order caroline's earlier book, we might have a contact.
but today, we are going to talk about'ends of war', which if you've been following my social media posts while i've been reading the book the last month or so, you know i'm crazy about a. just so much about this book gets me dead center. i love this book. so, let's just jump in and start talking about'ends of war', so folks watching at home can get an idea of what they're going to get if they decide to order this book. now, caroline it is september of 2021. and the war is ending. so, people of the united states, around the world are watching something happen. they're watching how a war ends. and if nothing else, i think they're probably understanding that this is a complicated, messy and heartbreaking thing to happen. wars don't just and.
they don't just bring down the curtain and everything is fine. so, i think your story that you tell in'ends of war'is a story about how wars and. what war is the one you're talking about. a story of how wars and. just because we close your book doesn't mean the troubles of the people and talk about our over. so, why does the end of the civil war interest you so much? does the>> i think you have tan several really important themes there. one of those being that we're in the midst of a war ending. it has not clearly ended yet. and that was absolutely the case for americans, white, black, north, south, loyal or disloyal -- however you chose to describe them in 1865 -- it wasn't quite clear just what it would mean to end the war militarily, socially, legally.
all of these questions were very much up in the air. there's a reason there is an s in the title. ends of war. i don't think there is one particular moment that we can point to. and for so long, appomattox has lived -- we use that as a shorthand a the time. people say and appomattox we all seem to be on board about what that means. on one hand, that's fear because people at that time certainly hoped that appomattox would be the end. well, some people at the time hoped appomattox would be the end. but it wasn't entirely clear. and i think we're living in that moment right now of what does it mean to end the war. but i think i also, the point that i try to make at the end of the book is that all of these things that happen surrounding the ways in which the war came to an end, would have long lasting effects. effects that we are still
living with today in many instances. >> right, right. the next thing you do when you actually open your book, most of it is an investigation of what happened after lee's surrender. and for those at home, the book is not going to be that interested in confederates crossing the rio grande, or something like that. although i know you recognize that importance. this focuses on lee's army, as it says in the subtitle. we're talking about the army of northern virginia. but what made you want to look at that time that lee's army after appomattox. to keep that story going when other books had closed? >> right, so there's a couple of ways in which this book came together. on one hand, the first two books that i wrote that you've mentioned, looking at memory of
the war, i was well aware and kept bumping in two things happening in the spring and summer of 1865. regarding how the union starts thinking about their former enemies. do they call them former enemies? are they still enemies? so, their ideas were out there. but my initial intention, i edited a volume that looked at the appomattox campaign. and i was going to write one sec about what happened to lee's army after appomattox. we have a notion of actually wilts coming home in gone with the wind. we have other cultural references a soldiers drifting home. or we have the notion of a bunch of vagabonds terrorizing the countryside. but i was in clear how the confederate army was disbanded or demobilize. so, i thought that's a great
messy. i can delve into that and it didn't take long getting into the research before i realized, this story is so much more complicated than i had ever imagined and that blossomed into this book. ever imagined>> yes, and indeeda complicated look. i think it ties into a lot of those complicated things very well. during the course of our top, i'm going to try to weave as many of those as i can. i'll tell you right now, as soon as i opened the book it had me fascinated. and i simply am going to read the breakdown of these numbers you put right up front. right up front, you tell us, lee had 60,000 men way left richmond. 28,000 were paroled. 1100 died or became casualties.
and that leaves about 20,000 reds unaccounted for. so what did the future look like to these guys? who were they and what was that decision made, right then? >> just to be clear, when it comes to numbers in the civil war, we are doing the best that we can. it's extremely difficult to nail down precise numbers. and that's lost math there. but that 20,000 men, who are not formally surrendered at appomattox between april 9th and 12th, that's the question. what does become of these men? who were these men? they had as many different stories as there were man. some of these men were those who were seeing the writing on the wall. they realized, whether at high bridge or many of the other battles along the way, that this was not going well and
that leads army could very well be compelled to surrender. they knew the reputation of grant's unconditional surrender grant. and they were fearful of what would happen to them as captured confederate prisoners of war, if they were held as prisoners as war. so some refused to surrender. others are sore and tired. they're physically unable to keep up with the relentless pace of louise army as it pushed west, trying to move south and hookup with joe johnson in carolina. they dropped out of the ranks. others are very determined not to desert, not just to avoid the humiliation. but to continue to fight. and that was more so for those men who had horses. a simple logic behind us. so artillery and's and cavalryman, they were the most likely to escape appomattox and they are able to ride off from different points of departure.
and there's a no plan for what they can do next. they rendezvous, perhaps in a small town in the small towns of north carolina or maybe they can go to the heels of the shenandoah valley. and reorganize. many, into june, believe they can reorganize. -- >> and the memoirs of porter alexander, tells us, that he had this meeting with lee on the day of the surrender and said, would you do this, would you do that? the guys could go to their state and then their governors could decide if they can continue to work, stuff like that. and lee told him off, i'm not going to do that, i can't do that. but in your book, i don't think you handle it directly. but it's the whole --
your book sort of says, well, it doesn't say -- but it has led me to think, well, li never told his guys that. >> maybe not -- >> it wasn't until the farewell orders that he told the 28,000 that were still with him, this legendary -- you know, this legendary peace directive. the other guys didn't get that. >> that's a great point. so he's having that conversation with porter alexander. and he's telling members of his command that this is what he wants but you are right to my knowledge, this is never directly communicated. but at that point to it's pretty late in the day and there are thousands upon thousands of man, not just cavalry and artillery, but the others that have dropped out of the ranks, it's too late for them. >> right, right. for them to get an order. >> right. >> to comply with it from an
order. oh boy, talking about appomattox itself, as you know, there's a whole genre of literature and even talking about the details of that, there hasn't been one book written on these details. it's a whole list of books and responses. and would i think that that says about appomattox in the meeting, which we are going to talk about -- but we do spend the rest of the interview talking about it. it is that, in my mind, it is that -- especially the guys in, we'll moore maclean's parlor, they were aware of it as both a historical event and legendary. and the myth of the lost cause. it's easy to talk about this. and it's easy to say that appomattox starts here and they start saying stuff over here. but if those guys in the parlor
knew that something legendary was happening, and this is something that i think you write about in the book, they are still creating, stuff they create -- the polls get created. and they sack the house of mclean and take his furniture. men tear down his apple tree which it turned out, lee, had not, hidden under. >> right, right. there's stories of it. >> and so there's wind on that day, on the parlor,, what is happening. and we are going to talk about a couple of things. one is that you share this theme, taken by alonso chapel. they liked it as a theme even
though there are problems with it but i'm going to ask why you thought that this was a good representative theme of the surrender. >> so i love this image in part because we have so many different versions of what happens to mclean and his parler, who wasn't there, debates about whether sheridan was there. there are some paintings that include cost or, we no cost or was not there. >> right. >> and whether there were two tables or three tables. >> right. >> i think it only makes sense that eli parker was sitting at the third table. how else would he have been taking notes and daunting down
what were the copies that grant asked him to make? so i am keen on this for those reasons. who represents, being in the room. and there are certainly problems with it. but also the notion that the look on lee's face is certainly less than triumphant. this is not what we've seen some other images. when it's difficult to tell, maybe i should say that. way >> right. >> it's difficult to tell who is surrendering to whom. it is clear in this image. >> and what was the date that chapel did this? >> i have it as 1885, as a print. i know it's in a gallery, it's quite strikingly different, when he did in 1870. i don't know an earlier painting that would make sense if it was an earlier one.
>> i will also tell you this, about 1885, i've been thinking about that year, it's the year of grant. it's the year of the memoirs that are published and it would make sense whether alonzo chappel painted it or whether it's a print. and some would say, let's get another piece out there. >> right, absolutely. >> so i wanted to point to these cases. because i have a particular interest in the tables. i know you do to. >> i do. >> two of the three tables in the painting by alonzo chappel, and i agree, his painting is most accurate in terms of wilmer mclean's stuff. and both the tables are accounted for, the marble top table where grant is sitting, in this picture. i believe that's the chicago
institute. and the grand table that lee is sitting at, i think that's at the smithsonian, maybe? >> that's where i believe it is, yes. and then it's parker's table. and i think bower said, he was supposed to write out the turn -- >> oh, you are right, yes, yes. >> so i have seen bowers sitting in that table. and he sat down at the table, and you've seen the background there, you see the writings there, that there are two two ledges. it would probably be easier for us to just go ahead and take a look at the table itself which does exist. it is the only table from
wilmer mclean's parlor that day that is not in a public institution. it's in private hands. two years ago it was consigned for sale. it was out there on the market. we had the opportunity, the honor of representing that corner, so that table got to live in the abraham lincoln book shop for some time. so, there it is. there's the parker table. leader have it now. don't come asking us for it. but it is definitely the third table and it still exists, like everything else. it was taken because they knew this was a legendary moment. >> it's so phenomenal to see it, even in a photograph, and think about all of those connections. whether it be the little graph of what's actually happened there. yes, thank you for sharing that. >> sure. the short version of this is
this was taken by captain thomas wells. captain thomas wells was the son of gideon wells. and it remained in the welsh family for a long time. and the collector who owns this has all of this proof that it did belong to the welsh family. and it had been refurbished at least once. at least one of those generations of wells thought it would be great idea to keep a fish tank on it, so at one point in the later part of the 20th century, it got refurbished because it had fish tank stuff. [laughs] like i said, this is, gosh we've done like 30 minutes of our top -- >> real quickly, i'll just add one more piece that in the book i also use a little bit about general or when he is
enrichment. and in that photograph you can see the marble top table that has been taken from maclean's parlor. so wilmer mclean you're right this stuff tells value and whether we want to think of it as otherwise people knew what happened in that place was going to be significant in some fashion or another. so, it's not unusual that we see them all vying for it. i believe even mclean's there was a doll that was even painted or sold, whatever the case may be, by a union soldier. here's evidence that i was there. >> yes. exactly just like the men that took down the apple tree. before we leave appomattox, there is one more thing that's created there that's important to your story. that revolves around the terms of surrender. grant famously generous terms of surrender. which creates a little bit of
legal, questionable legal standing, which is going to have to practical effect on the confederate themselves. can you talk about the terms before we follow the confederate out onto the road? >> sure. the terms that grant offers, which he will later see in his memories just came to him. he didn't know what he was going to write when he put that into paper -- the terms he offered were the men would surrender their weapons and their flags, and they would go home on parole. that is an important term that we should maybe talk about a bit. but they are prisoners of war, in other words. they are prisoners of war who are vowing not to take up arms again against the united states government. the provision that grant ads that is a new provision, that we do see in other terms of surrender, is that the will not be bothered or arrested by
union authorities, so long as they observe the laws in place where they reside. so, that is the new part. we don't see that in vicksburg, we don't see that in other surrender terms. lee though also adds a line, and i think this is important to point out. lee no longer has unconditional surrender plans. there is reason for that, i believe, and i'm not suggesting that he did wrong. but there is a little bit of negotiation that's going on here. and that is that lee will add until they are exchange. and this might seem like a throwaway line, but i think it's important for two reasons. on one hand, lee believed, or at least he had this little tiny bit of hope, that perhaps joe johnson's army or kirby smith's army will be successful, and there will be a need for his men once more. so, maybe the war will continue and they will be exchanged.
but the flip side of that is current could have struck that out, but he doesn't. and i think that's telling because he thinks the war is coming to an end. so can lee let that one go. we can let that go because obviously this is a gesture. it's silly, empty, because it's obvious that when lee capitulates, the others will follow in his week. or at least, that grant very much had hope. >> that's going to create some legal wrangling later, but i want to do is -- for the folks at home, professor janney and i could've spent half of the interview talking about -- >> the first chapter? >> the first chapter. [laughs] i promise you, this is just when the book starts to get really good. >> much of that stuff we kind
of knew. i think it's really -- >> when you start to follow confederates away from appomattox, that's when this book really starts to get good. and what they take with them, i'd love to share another image here -- i got this not from our stock, but from the library of virginia -- there are all issued the pearl. right? or a -- >> april paths. >> and here is a parole pass that captain james guard knit of the ordinance officer gets. this is a parole, this is a pass. what does this do. because if you read it carefully, what does this do for him when he goes home with his service? >> right, this is when you shared this with me a little. i have never seen that added
line. i think this is fascinating and now i have something else to investigate. there's so much going on to talk about. so, i will take up that bit of it. and the notion -- does it with horse and service? >> that's with horse and servant. yes, sorry i missed the with service part. it says with horse and with service. >> so, lee had also asked grant if all the men could take home their horses. the confederates cavalry men and officer supplied their own horses, so grant agrees to that. but the more interesting part is servants here, which of course means slaves or slave persons. this is another part of the story i think we knew a little bit about. i really tried to flesh out as much as possible, and that is there were hundreds of black men that were still with the army of northern virginia at
appomattox. most of them had been enslaved and either word serving as body servants, which is probably what was going on in this case with garnett. or they had been impressed by the confederate government to the labor. so those freeman and the and leave -- as cooks and other types of labor. at some of these men were listed in the pearl. if you look at the parole list, you can find examples of african american men who are listed, but in other accounts, we have men that are writing home about bringing their body servants. their enslaved men home with him. so, i tried to tease the story out as much as possible. what did it mean to be an enslaved person? were you free at appomattox? and the short version is, no. not necessarily. one of the really interesting
things, grant says nothing about the enslaved men and to a lesser extent, probably a handful of women, that were with leads army. he does address this at vicksburg, but the war is still going on. there seems to be this assumption that with the emancipation proclamation and seemingly union the cute wreath, that slavery will come to an end. all along the route home there are examples of confederates that are forcing in slaved men and women to and company them to help them. they are hiding slaves. there is someone who takes off immediately and the first thing he goes to do is to hide the people that he owns, to prevent them from making their way to the union army. . so i would love to investigate this and figure out who was the servant. because obviously that's not printed.
on the original -- they have printing presses with them. this is fascinating. >> you've got me thinking of brian signature. and that's going to have to be a project for another time. one other, bryant is one of the officers. one or two soldiers, walking away. grimes and others, there are higher divisions that march away. the surrender terms that are created by the commission on the morning of april 10th. they tell them that they need to keep their organization to the extent possible. so the divisions for the recommendations are marched in a way and grimes is one of those officers. who leads them way. and many of those groups don't
hand out these parole passes until they decide to disband, usually as far from appomattox as they can, in these large groups. but 1000 man, marching away, even 200 men marching away. it isn't working well. so i have to wonder, yeah, we know that there are blank passes, people had blank passes for their name. so why not add just a little bit more here? >> yeah, maybe that is james garnet's hand. >> very well could be. >> [laughs] you can insert that one in there. >> i'm going to make a note to myself. >> but then this leads us to the road. and the road is a very important part of this story. in fact, i'm not going to even talk about this.
i'm going to make a very quick observation. and your story really is nauert ivan storytelling. and chronological. you could have chosen to write a book, a chapter that this, a chapter about that. but really you discovered a story of the war, that we still going. you write about that. so for folks at home, this is a story, a storybook. and the story is fascinating. it just keeps moving. one of the things that keeps moving, and now here's the question that you talk about -- or if you want to talk about it, it's your choice, you can do that. but roads are a big part. roads are a big part of the story. and much of the story happens on the road. and a few years ago, yale new sternoff examines the meaning of roads.
and routes. but so based on new thinking, like the professor did. what is the importance of roads? roots? the environmental place that they are going into? the mobilization of lee's army? >> would a beautiful question. thank you. so it is the story of the roads taken in the roads not taken. the times when roads are dangerous. and confederates who are not yet paroled, they decide that they need to avoid roads. i would also add, though, it's passageways, we large. streams and brooks are also important, as their avenues of evasion. in some instances. some soldiers that try to flip on to the james river and try
to make their way past union troops, these are men that have not yet been paroled. they are trying to get home. but there is this dispersal that happens from appomattox, before appomattox. the dispersal begins when the armies, all the armies, leave richmond and petersburg. but they are roads that take men back. they also take men west. they take them to other points of potential transportation, they take them to places like berkfield junction, which is a small -- for those who may be familiar with southside virginia this junction is not even much of a little village anymore. but it's an important railroad junction, close to appomattox, and it's where the working railroad lines are. it's as far as you can get in
the immediate aftermath of appomattox, and so paroled soldiers from the army are making their way there. showing their parole passes, that you gave us an example. of using that to get rations. or hopefully, to get passage on a train that will take them to some place like seapoint at the junction of the james and appomattox, where they can hope to get to maybe richmond. that would be the quickest way to richmond. but perhaps they can get all the way up to baltimore. maybe they need to get home to kentucky. so the fastest route would be to take -- a ship that could take them to baltimore which will take them to rails in the area. so it's some time away, but these roads are at times treacherous. there are times when being on the road itself could expose you -- and hear i'm talking about
confederates. there are lots of other folks out there who are last unsavory, and they talk about trying to stay together. and they will camp away from the road, so that they are not -- that they are not sitting ducks out there at night. there are all these decisions, decisions being made. where do you find friendly people who may be willing to share some of their rations? when do you demand it? when the officers demand provisions from either individuals or from stores or quartermaster's? >> making the point that the road can be treasure us treacherous to ex confederates. but it can also be treacherous to people along those roads? and near those roads combined?
>> you don't know where these roads are, and as with any society, any group of people, they are certainly bad people among all these groups of people. and there's a sense of danger and uncertainty and this will only become even more fraught, rather than less so, as this unfolds. you and to the -- book, i'm glad you brought that up he's pointing out that so many people are on the move. and we have of course all the enslaved people whose status is really rather murky at this moment, but thousands of them upon thousands of them are coming to places like richmond. and cities are becoming very full -- and this is becoming an issue. soldiers are coming in. and there is this -- chaos is maybe too strong of a word. but it certainly chaotic. and the uncertainty and the
fear that is wrapped up in all of these various groups. >> exactly, yeah. i'm going to check on our comments real quick. i have to page over there and see who is out there. first, take a minute to see who is out there. and see some questions. and we have to regulars. from the uk. gabe from the uk, and gave from illinois. so there is always a little dave cohort that there. we do have an international show. so dave bradley in the uk, he's joining us as well. and also, zachary goforth is watching this as well. we have an answer to one of the questions that we didn't.
no and that is john willand, saying that the -- is definitely at the museum of natural history. it was a gift from lady custer. and john is the docent. didn't sheridan give it to you custer to give it to lidy? >> back in the parlor -- >> and mcclain didn't want to sell his furniture for 20 dollars on the ground. >> i've heard that. one of the many stories i've heard. we will keep going. and a shout outs -- one of them, thanks for this program, i enjoy the book.
what's up next? in terms of book projects? we will get to that. but he says, go wahoos and that is newsom. >> when -- hansen. >> we will check in here before we sign off. but it's a good time. it is a good time out there on the road. n and -- oh, this is something that is really interesting, in the way that you are perspective of the book is. you start with the math but you look out. and suddenly it's a story of appomattox in the post war days, talking about other places and the people there. no longer those kinds of soldiers. what and winchester, virginia. the farm in lynch bergh. this is a place where women come into the story.
and become the protagonist in the story and what is their story at the end of the war. one of those points? >> you asked me, there is a company of 20,000 soldiers who weren't paroled at appomattox. some of them had gone home to their homes. others, as i mentioned earlier, had gone and they are waiting, in places like the shenandoah valley to be called up by their officers. but it becomes quickly apparent to grant that he needs to issue these polls. or at least the ability to grant pearls, that should be extended to all the men of the army of northern virginia, as he places it. but the formal surrender of the ceremony had happened at appomattox, farms ville, just to the east of appomattox, they are issuing roles. some of those men are men who are convalescing and confederate hospital beds.
some are men that should have been at appomattox. but they hear about these parole terms, when they are not there, which many did not expect to be so generous and magnanimous. and so they are told that this happened in lynchburg as well. and it happened in places as far afield as winchester. i was really surprised that the number of men that were paroled in winchester. somewhere around 2000. i'm sure there are more out there. hancock, one of them is hancock, a man there. and he, not only has an exchange of letters between lee and grant, but he has that published, printed that they are mailed up through the area and the lower valley. and i think that is evidence of, look, this really did happen. for any naysayers that believe we may have surrendered, here is evidence.
come in, get yourself paroled. or be rested and you will be in prison. this does happen in some instances. he sends cavalry up and down the shenandoah valley. those men who are willing to come in on their own, they will be paroled. those who are not, they are hauled off to prison. and who knows then? if they will be paroled? or at least they don't know in that moment. so throughout virginia, and the northern neck, the shenandoah valley, into west virginia, maryland, even down into the carolinas, men from lee's army are finding their way to field marshals and other officials and being paroled. >> being paroled everywhere -- and hancock is a lot of the people, that's the one who they surrendered to. what was i thinking about? -- that brings us to --
not everyone gets generous terms. there is one confederate officer, his men, who, by name, are excluded from the generous terms. who does that imply? >> that would be colonel john f. mosley, man they despise the most and are fearful. of people at the union high command, they are gorillas, to them. they are at first very briefly excluded. and hancock will play a role in this. and most people will meet with union officials twice. dangling in front of them the possibility that he will come in and surrender his command.
a pain in the neck. the forces and northern virginia and this is another undercurrent throughout that grant and sherman are fearful of guerrilla warfare. we started talking about alexander earnest questions to lee, but even though it not might not have been the reality, there is a fear that we cannot underestimate that grand and others had. confederates refusing to take the role in fighting the war by other means and type of guerrilla warfare. -- >> right. this brings us from north and west so you do turn them perspective a little bit in
leads army and the end of the war when the loyal states and whatever the decisions that people make in the loyal states to suddenly say wait a minute -- are everywhere would gonna do to protect ourselves in maryland and other places? >> really important point i'm glad you brought up. this isn't just the story of what happened in virginia or would even happen in the form of confederacy. all of this spilling out and revealing out into other places, none more so than those states remaining loyal, the border states as we call. i'm the big question is going to be for hancock, grant, and ultimately for the attorney general of the united states james speed, whether or not confederates from loyal states, specifically maryland, missouri, kentucky, and -- not was virginia --
whether not they can return to their home. had they committed such a crime in leaving their loyal states and going to fight for the rebel army that they no longer -- i will offer this as a tease without getting into more. this is a problem and it's a problem that local citizens will take into their hands. if the united states government is not going to effectively deal with this, then they will deal with this. west virginia becomes -- case, because grant and speed both say, actually, west virginia doesn't really fit this motives part of virginia and when virginia left, west virginia didn't exist so there was an ordinance of succession some people can -- soon royal breasts virginians
don't like this. there -- people who fought for the confederacy and this is going to be really problematic. >> these men left this states and are going to return to a loyalist state. >> right. what happens if they are paroled and perhaps pardoned, granted their citizenship back and now there are voting blocks? what will play out then? >> relaying in charleston and all these places. >> why do we want these disloyal men back in our midst? it's one thing to send confederates home to states that succeeded where the vast majority of the population supported the confederacy, it's another to send them home to places where they are not wanted in that becomes very clear in the summer of 65. >> i will tell you this, professor danny, this happens
all the time and we should be getting used to it in the house divided. somewhere around the point of ten minutes left in the interview everybody watching gets an a ha moment now i am a quest id. i am going to set my -- i love to read my questions. let's leap back over to the folks watching on facebook lives in there are some great questions over here so i'm gonna leave it to you and it depends on how much time you have. i don't want to go a long time, five minutes, maybe. >> we can do five minutes. >> it depends on how quickly you answer the questions. lynn bristol wants to know how certifiable were the pearls?
was there a watermark? how does someone tell they are looking at a genuine parole pass? >> i assume you mean parole path? just to clarify, there are the parole lists that were kept. all these lists were then compiled and those are different than the pearl path. that's what's given to him every individual. like the one that you showed, story for another time. >> though given blank to either the regiment, sometimes the brigade commander. they are the people who fill them in. hits not union oxford, or union soldiers that are feeling these in, so confederates are filling them in. there is no way to certify this. you don't have any idea to show
that this match is the person that you say it is, but there were also lots of blank passes, many of them are not filled out until the men leave and they have been marching away and let's say they've made their way to just virginia, near the carolinas. the officer decides, you know what, we can't stay together, let me fill this out. they are blank passes. there are a handful of instances i found through letters and diaries, where people recount, yeah, i had a blank pass. i probably got up to two soldiers to go to maryland and got in hot water with the maryland congressman. one of them says they had a blank passing fill that out themselves. there is no way to certify it. i offered this one little bit -- there are pearls issued at places like winchester, more information on those pearls. they include a description of
the person, it includes their hair color, eye color, complexion. there are physical descriptions that are meant in part to serve as a legitimacy cast. those pearl passes that aren't from appomattox were by union officials. >> we have a question from doug in kentucky. hello, doug. he has written a good question. let me take a look at it quickly. doug says, i would imagine that when the surrender occurred,
the confederate can's -- currencies were crashed his hero. among soldier is the rise theft, violence, on the road home? >> that is one of the questions that i was looking for. that is the flip side of the ashli wilcox image that we have. i would say it certainly happened, but more often than not, at least in the accounts that are left, those on the home front and by the soldiers themselves, many of them kept diaries on their way home. they were meticulous in reporting who they got food from, who provided them shelter, who did not provide them shelter. they like to point out people who refused them but, there were also numerous instances and where they do talk about taking, especially from african americans. in particular they are looking for quartermaster depots and
they find them along the way outside of what is now rover junior, and danville virginia, daines vail, north carolina. a reason why they are heading to some of these places because they start food and other provisions. it did happen, i think it happened less than i expected on my time. >> okay, okay. thank you very much, doug. finally, dave bradley from the uk wants to know, would you agree that lee is a management against other terms greatly reduced the ex confederate from coming along girls? >> when i think it's always hard is that if i was a betting person, i would say yes it did reduce. there is part of the reason that grant is so adamant that the pearls be upheld, which is something that i really dig into in the second half of the
book when windows -- should be upheld, grant is saying, if we don't uphold them, this could devolve into something much worse. i think grand, as much as lee, and grants assistance on holding parole -- insistence on it, the extent to which they were in fact, many confederate wrote it as a blanket pardon. i talk about state of war as a legal reality and much of the book, but i think grant was instrumental in preventing more of that violence. we might have expected a lot more. >> okay. thank you very much, dave. . one more thing i want to share because it has something to do with parole verses --
an oath of allegiance. and something we have here and i can share. this is one -- if you decide to go out and get an abraham lincoln signature, this is one of the most common abraham lincoln signatures that exists. it is an endorsement. most of the time, it's cut off of these letters and the rest of the letters are thrown away. it was very popular. i didn't do it. [laughs] people didn't a long time ago and they were collecting lincoln. it is this -- lincoln probably wrote every other time, let this man take the oath of december 8th, 1863, and be discharged. a blinken, in this case, he signed it in 1864. in this case, just for those of you who want to come and see it
later, i will put a link in the commons so you can see it. it is signed by a blinken and andrew johnson, and carrie and i were just talking, how many time where those men in the same room together? right? maybe three? so, this is a very interesting linkage. it tells us that it refers to let this man take the oath, december 4th 1863 and let him be discharged. what is the law lincoln is charging it -- talking about, and how does that -- confederates? >> lincoln had what was known as the 10% plan. any confederate before the rank of colonel can put down his weapon and quit fighting the union. johnson, when he comes into office, he is really wondering
to what extent lincoln programed his wartime amnesty. amnesty is a blanket. it covers almost everyone. he stand up and take the oath and you are covered. the pardon is for those excluded under amnesty and they have to apply individually. the very short version of all of this, it did imply complete protection from prosecution. you could not be prosecuted if you were issued a pardon. the question is, had the parole passes -- [laughs] had they serve that function, or was there going to be a next step to follow through with a pardon? this will become one of the really contentious issues, especially among andrew johnson and grant in the summer of 1865. >> all right. well, thank you very much
everybody for participating. i will have to get back to the issues at hand. there is so much that we didn't cover. this is such a great book. we didn't cover what congressman harris said there in maryland, you will have to read about it. it's great. we talk about to confederate soldiers who testified against him. we didn't talk too much about west virginia, and all of that. there is so much more to talk about with the appomattox and all that. the book is the ends of war, the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox comes to us from -- a new want to thank them for signing up this book signing for you. it is 331 pages. there are illustrations and there are maps. i forgot to write down the questions, presumably could go to our website and give us that
amount and we will send it to you. we can't on c-span two ornamental and national. faced american history and on sunday, book tv gives you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span two comes from these television companies and more including nicole i hope hope everybody is enjoying their day so far. we have another great program here in store. for those of you who do not know me, my name is tammy myers, dire
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