tv Caroline Janney Ends of War CSPAN December 28, 2021 9:22am-10:24am EST
now more than ever, it all starts with great internet. >> wow, along with these television companies, supports c-span2 as a public service. c-span shop, browse through our collection of products, apparel, books, home decor and accessories. there's something for every c-span fan. every purchase helps support our non-profit operations. shop now or any time. now, our guest today -- i want to introduce our guest. our guest is professional caroline e janney. after appomat. let's take a quick look at it. we are going up some things to share with you. this is going to be a fun
show. but, the unfinished fight lee's army after appomattox comes to from university of north carolina press whom we think forgetting professor on this program with us and for publishing this fine book. we are selling to you in the first edition. it is three to 31 pages, illustrations and maps are going to share some of those with you during the course of this conversation. we are send this first edition copy to you with a custom abraham lincoln bookshop signed bookplate too. i want to thank you, for signing this book plates sending them back to us. folks at home, let me tell you a little bit little bit about caroline e janie she's the professor and history of the american civil war and the director of the center for
civil war history at the university of virginia. that is a lot, i know that job that is the job. >> it is a wonderful job pretty could not be better. >> the namesake on your job is really one of the unheralded heroes of civil war history. someone's collected years for years and years of priceless pieces of american history. and now most of them now reside with you at uva pre- >> a special collection we now have somewhere between 30 and 40000 letters and diaries that has collected. an invaluable resource we are just beginning to dig through these and figure out the many, many things he collected. i'll make a pitch here, we are
going to be digitizing this collection and making it available worldwide for everyone. >> that is wonderful. let's was with their collection which was also the result of a collector going out and doing what they love to do. i will do a pitch for abraham lincoln bookshop. if you want to collect stuff, is a perfect example of what can happen with this obsession of yours. it is valuable, it is not just you. it is a really valuable thing. so anyway it is a great job congratulations. i know you love doing it and you have all this great stuff to work with pretty quickly for the folks at home, caroline is also the author of remembering the civil war,
reunion and the limits of reconciliation. and burying the dead but not the past ladies memorial association the lost cause. when i see that book of course i think of having karen cox on this showed just a few months ago. of course there's the late robert e lee statue in richmond. but of course she'd already done dixie's daughters. this topic of women, southern women in the postwar is crucial to understanding the civil war. >> rate. the work that karen does it dovetails nicely, i think our work dovetails nicely together. the lee money or the former lee monument the daughters of confederacy rallied around affects the women i wrote about in that first book who
are part of the initial plans to build that monument starting in 1870 and after lee's death. >> right, right. anyway that is a different book. someone wants to order caroline's one of her earlier books we might have them, contact us. but today were going to talk about ends of war. if you have been following my social media post while he been reading the book the last month or so you know i am crazy about it. so much about this book hits me dead center i love this book. so let's just jump in and start talking about ends of war so folks watching at home can get an idea of what they can get if they decide to order this book. now caroline it is september of 2021.
in a war is ending. so, people of the united states and people around the world are watching something happen. they watch how war ends. if nothing else there probably understanding this is a complicated, messy and heartbreaking thing to happen, they just do not bring down the curtain and everything is fine. so, i think your story is a story about how war's end. it is one where the one you're talking about. the story about how war's end. just because we close your book does not mean the troubles of the people you talk about her over. why does the end of the civil war interest you so much? >> i think you have tapped on several really important themes there. one of those themes we are in the midst of the war ending it is not clearly ended yet.
that was absolutely the case for americans, white, black, north, south, loyal, disloyal, however you chose to describe them in 1865. i was not quite clear to end a work militarily, socially, legally, all of these questions were very much up in the air. there is a reason there's an s in the title and of war. i don't think there's one particular moment that we can point too. for so long we have a short hint of a tummy tuck by the end of the civil war was a appomattox and we all seem to be on board with what that means. on one hand that is fair because people at the time currently hoped appomattox to be the end, or some people at the time. it is not entirely clear.
i think we are living in that moment right that now what does it mean to end a war? but also the point i try to make in the end of the book is that all of these things that happen surrounding would have a long lasting effects, effects we are living with today in many instances. >> right, right. the next thing you do will be open your book, most of it as the investigation into what happened after lee's surrender. for those at home the book is not going to be that interested in palmetto ranch or confederates crossing the rio grande or something like that. although i know you recognize that is important. or talk about virginia.
what made you want to look at that time at lee's army after appomattox? to keep that going when other had closed. >> a couple of ways in which this book came together. the first two books i wrote you mentioned memory of the war, i was well aware and kept bumping into things that are happening in the spring and summer of 1865 regarding how unionists are thinking about their former enemies, do they call them former enemies? are they enemies? the ideas were out there but my initial intention edited a volume that looked the appomattox campaign. i went to write one essay about what happens to lee's army after appomattox. we had a notion coming home and gone with the wind we have
other cultural references of one or two soldiers drifting home. we have the notion a bunch of vagabonds terrorizing the countryside. i was not clear how a confederate army was disbanded or demobilized. and so i thought that is a great essay. i can delve into that. it did not take long getting into the research before i realized this story is so much more complicated than i had ever imagined and that blossomed into this book. >> indeed it is a complicated, complicated book. i think it ties in a lot of those complicated themes very well. during the course of our talk going to waive its many of those as i can. as soon as i open the book,
they had me fascinated. i'm simply good to read the breakdown of these numbers you put right up front. right up front he had 60000 men when he left and 20000 or paroled. about 11500 became casualties including captured which is part of the story. that leaves about 20000 unaccounted for. so what did the future look like to these 20000 guys? who are they and what was the decision they made right then? >> just to be clear when it comes to numbers in the civil war we are doing the best that we can. it's really hard to nail down numbers those 20000 men were not formally surrendered at appomattox, that is the question, what does because of these men who were these men?
there were its many stories as there were men. some were seeing the writing on the wall. they realized whether highbridge for many of the other battles along the way this was not going well and lee's army could very well be compelled they were fearful of what would happen to them if it captured confederates as a prisoner of war as they were held as prisoners of war. some refused to surrender and take off. others are foot sore and tired. they are physically unable to keep up with the relentless pace as it pushed west tried to move south not just avoid
the humiliation but to continue the fight more so for the men who had horses as a simple logic behind this so artillery wrist and calvary men were the most likely to quite literally escape appomattox. they are able to write off from the various points of departure with the plans for what they can do next. connate rhonda rhonda view perhaps in a small town in the mountains may beat the hills and ham with the shenandoah valley and reorganize. many of these initially well into june. the fight is not over. they can get the work on another front brake. >> reporter tells us he had we
can do this we can do that the guys can go to the state and the governors could decide if they could continue. then part of what your book i don't think you handle it directly, your book says doesn't say it led me too think lee never told his guys that. it wasn't until the order he told the 28000 that were still with him this legendary piece and directive. the other guys did not get that brake. >> that is a great point but is having that conversation he's telling members of his band this is what he wants. to my knowledge this was never directly communicated.
at that point to it's also pretty late in the day. not that calvary and arturo c at the others have dropped out of the ranks it is too late for those men. >> for them to get an order and reply to it or comply with it. talking about appomattox itself as you know is a whole genre of literature. even talking to the details of that there's not been one book written about each detail there's a whole list of responses. what i think that sells about appomattox to me, which we are going to talk about what we could spend the rest of the interview talking about it, is that in my mind especially the guys in the men in the parler
historical event and legendary. helps stops here i start saying stuff over here. that is easy for us. but if those guys in the parler knew something legendary was happening in this is something i think you like they start creating stuff the kind of stuff i like. they create the paroles get creative. because the men tear down this apple tree which turned out lee had not. there is this awareness in the parler that what is happening is eventful.
and they are going 20 keep it. we are going to talk about a couple of things that we could spend the rest of the conversation talking about. one is, you share this scene painted by alonzo chaplin going to show it here. you seem to have liked it as a scene even though there are problems with it. i'm going to share it here so you can discuss it and i want to know why you thought this was a good representative seen of the surrender. >> so i love this image in part there so many different versions of what happens, who was there, who was in their debates about whether sheraton was there or not. there are some paintings that include pastor there we know custer was not there.
the various tables and there has been a lot of discussion over the years whether there were two tables or perhaps three tables. i think it only makes sense that eli parker was sitting at a third table. how else would he have been taking notes and jotting down what grants, making copies asks them to make. who it wraps up being in the room. it's difficult to tell it's hard to tell who surrenders to it's clear in this image was the dates that alonzo chappell
did this? >> i have 1885 prints. torches create strikingly different was 1870. i don't know whether this was an earlier painting it would make sense it was an earlier painting. >> i will also tell you this, i've been obsessing about 1885 lately it is the year of grant is the year grant dies, it is the year the memoirs are published. it would make sense whether chappell painted it and someone would say let's get another piece of grant out there. >> absolutely. >> let's talk about the tables i have particular interest in the tables and i know you do too. two of the three tables and chapels of painting and i agree chappell's painting is
most accurate in terms of stuff. they have lee sitting at the table that grant sat at and both of those tables are counted for the marble top table work grant sitting in this picture is i believe right there in chicago, and i believe grant table that chappell has lee sitting at is at the smithsonian maybe? >> that is were i believe it is. this leaves colonels table which i think captain bauer set out for a while because i think bowers said think there's a story where he was supposed to write out and said my hand is shaking i can't do it. >> you are right. yes, yes, yes. i've seen bowers and artwork sitting at that table. that man with the strongest writing hand on grant's staff sat down at that table. you can see it in the
background you see the legs you see there are two ledges. who would probably be easier for us to just go ahead and take a look at the table itself which does exist. it is the only table from the parler that day that is not in a public it is in private hands. at a time not too long ago a few years ago it was consigned for sale perhaps it was out on the market. we had the opportunity, the honor of representing that owner and so that table got to live in the abraham lincoln bookshop for some time. and so there it is, there is the table. do not come asking us for. like everything else it was taken because they knew this
was a legendary moment. >> it is so phenomenal to see it even and a photograph and think about all of those connections whether be the lithograph or what actually happened there. thank you for sharing that. cocksure sure this was taken from by captain wells was the son of secretary of the navy gideon welles. it remained in the wells family for a long time. and the collector, who owns this it did belong to the wells family. it had been i thought at least once. one of those generations thought it would be a great idea to keep a fish tank on it. so at one point in the later part of the 20th century it got refurbished because it had
fish tank stuff all over it. but like i said, i've got 30 minutes of our talk. >> real quickly i will add one more piece, in the book i also use a photograph when he is in richmond. and in that photograph used in the marble top table that has been taken from the parler. you are right held value, whatever you want to think of it as a relic or otherwise people knew that what happens in that place was going to be significant in some fashion or another. i believe even mcclain's daughter there is a dull that was taken or sold, whichever the case may be by a union soldier. here's evidence i was there. >> exactly recite the men that took on that apple tree and
took it home. [laughter] so before we leave appomattox there's one more thing that's created there that is important to your story that revolves on the terms of surrender. grant famously generous terms of surrender, which creates a little bit of legal questionable legal standing. which of a practical effect on the standard itself is a try to get home. can you talk about the terms before he fell the confederates onto the road? >> the terms that grant offers which she will later say in his memoirs just came to him for he did not know what he was going to write with pen to paper the terms he offers are the men will surrender their weapons and their flags. and they will go home on parole. that is an important term we should maybe flush out a bit. but they are prisoners of war
and other words. they are prisoners of war who were vowing not to take up arms again against the united states government. and the provision that grant ads is a new provision we do not see in other terms of surrender they will not be bothered they will not be arrested by union authorities so long as they observed the laws where they reside. that is a new part. we do not see that in vicksburg, we did not see that in other surrender terms. we also add a line and i think this is important to point lee also adds a line. i think this is important to point out. we no longer have unconditional surrender grant. there's reasons for that, i believe. i'm not suggesting that he did wrong. but there is a little bit of negotiation that's going on here. that is that lee will add, until
they are exchanged. and this might seem like a throwaway line, but i think it's important for two reasons. on one hand, lee believes -- or at least he has this little tiny bit of hope that perhaps joe johnston's army or kirby smith's army will be successful and there will be a need for his men once more. maybe the war will continue and they will be exchanged. but the flip side of that is, grant could have struck that out, and he doesn't. i think that's telling, because he thinks this war is coming to an end. we can let that one go. obviously, i'm paraphrasing here. but we can let that go, because, obviously, it's a gesture. it's empty because it's obvious that when lee capitulates, the others will follow in his wake, at least that's grant's -- very much his hope. >> and so that's going to create
some legal wrangling later. but let's -- what i want to do -- boy, we just spent -- we just spent half of the interview talking about -- >> first chapter. >> the first chapter. i promise you, this is just when the book starts to get really good. >> much of that stuff we kind of knew. i think it's really -- it takes off. >> when you follow the confederates away from appomattox, that's when this book really starts to get good. what they take with them -- let's share another image here. i got this -- not from our stock but from the library of virginia. they are all issued a parole. right? >> parole pass. >> a parole pass. here is a parole pass that
captain james garnett of the ordinance officer gets. this is a pass. what does this do for him sf if you read it carefully, what with his servant. >> right. this is when you shared this with me just a little bit ago. i have never seen that added line. i just absolutely think this is fascinating. and now i have something else to investigate. so there is so much going on here we could talk about. i'll take up that bit of it. and the notion with -- does it w say "with horse and servant" i believe it says. >> yes. with horse, and with the x, for and servant. >> lee also asked grant if all
the men could take home their own horses. so grant agrees to that. but the more interesting part is servant here which income means slave, enslaved person. and this is another part of the story that i think we knew a little about but i tried to fresh out as muchs possible. and that is, there were hundreds of black men that were still with the army of northern virginia at appomattox. most of them had been enslaved. and either were serving as body servants, which is probably what was going on in this case with garnet. or they had been impressed by the confederate government to labor. so both free men and enslaved men were impressed by the confederate government to labor as cooks, as teamsters, and any other type of laboring event. some of these men were listed in the paroles. if you look at the parole list you can find examples of african
american men listed. but in other accounts we have men that are writing home about bringing their body servant, their enslaved man home with them. and so i've tried to tease this story out as much as possible. what did it mean to be an enslaved person? were you free at appomattox? and the short version is no. not necessarily. one of the really interesting things, grant says nothing about the enslaved men and to a lesser extent probably a handful of women that were with lee's army. he does address this at vix burg, but the war is still going all along their route home there are examples of confederates that are forcing enslaved men and women to accompany them, to help them.
they are hiding their slaves. there is one cavalryman who takes off immediately and the first thing he goes to do is to hide the people that he owns to prevent them from making their way to the union army. so i would love, man, to investigate this and figure out who added the "with horse and servant." because obviously that is not printed on the original passes that is gibbons corps has printing presses with them. so this is something to pursue. this is fascinating. >> now you have me thinking should i compare brian grimes signature with the hand -- that's gonna have to be a project for another time. >> let me add one other. you are right. we could talk about these. so grimes is one of the officers that i mentioned the notion of ashley wilkes and one or two soldiers just kind of walking
away. grimes and others, there are entire divisions that march away from appomattox. the soldiers, the surrender terms created by the commission the morning of april 10th tell them they need to keep their organization to the extent possible. so divisions u brigades, regiments are marching away. and grimes is one of those officers who leads his men away. and many of those groups don't hand out these parole passes until they decide to disband, usually a few days after appomattox when they realize they can't stay in these large groups that. a thousand men marching away or even 200 men marching away isn't working well. i have to wonder. do we know there were fake passes. people had blank passes and filled in their named. why not add a little more here? >> yeah. maybe that's james garnett's hand. >> very well could be.
>> well, that's, now you can start that investigation. >> i'm going make a note to myself. >> yeah, all right. but then this leads us to the road. and the road is a very important part of this story. and with this book. in fact i'm not going make you talk about this but i'm going make a very quick observation. your story really is the way i read it, narrative and storytelling. and chronological. and you could have chosen to write a thematic book about chapter about this chapter about that, chapter about. but really you discovered that the war is still going. and write about that in your. so for those at home. this is the a story book. and the story is fascinating.
it just keeps moving. one of the thing that keeps moving. is -- or if you want to talk about the narrative and choice you can do that. but roads are a big part of this story. and much of the story happens on the road. a few years ago yale sternal examined the meaning roots. but it is in your bibliography. and based on this new thinking what professor sternal did or few other scholars have been thinking about environmental history, what is the importance of roads? routes? the environment, the place they are going and how they get there, to the story of the demobilization of lee's army? >> what a beautiful question. thank you. so it is the story of roads taken and roads not taken. the time when roads are
dangerous. and confederates who have not yet been paroled will decide that they need to avoid roads. i would also add though it is passageways writ large, so rivers, creeks and streams are also important. whether they are avenues of evasion, in some instances. some of the soldiers that tried to slip onto the james river and quietly tried to make their way past union troops so that -- these are men that have not yet been paroled that are trying to get home. but they are -- there is this dispersal that happens from appomattox to appomattox app ds
they take tham places like brookville junction, which is a small -- for those people who might be familiar with south side virginia, you know, brookfield junction isn't really much of a, even a little village anymore. but it was inan incredibly important railroad junction not too far just east of appomattox and it is where the working railroad line. as far as the line is working in the immediate after math of appomattox. so paroled soldiers from lee's army are making their way showing the parole passes you just gave us an example of. uses that to get rations or hopefully to get passage on a train that will take them to some someplace like city point, on the river. so at the junction of the appomattox and james rivers where hopefully they can either take a boat maybe to richmond, because that could be the quickest way to get to richmond, or perhaps take a steamer and go
all the way up to baltimore because they need to get home to tennessee or kentucky. so their fastest route would be to take a ship that could take them to baltimore where they could take railroads from there. so it is movement away but at times those are treacherous and there are times when being on the road itself could expose you. so here i'm talking about paroled or unparoled confederates. there are lots of other folks out there who are less than savory that are horse thieves and everything else. and so -- talk about trying to stay together. so they will camp away from the road so that they are not, you know, sitting ducks out there at night. so all of these decisions that are being made. where do you find friendly people that are willing to share some of their meager rations? when do you demand it? when do officers, people like brooims, pull out their side arms that they have been allowed
to keep, and demand provisions either from individuals or from stores, from quartermaster stores that might still be available. >> point making the road can be treacherous to the exconfederates and also it can be treacherous to the people living along those roads as the confederates come by. >> absolutely. you don't know who these people are. and with any society, as with any group of people there are certainly bad characters among all of these groups of people. and there is so much danger and uncertainty. and this will become even more fraught rather than less so as the summer months unfold. and more people are moving. and the book i'm glad you brought up. >> he's pointing out so meme are
on the moved. we have the enslaved people who is status is really rather murky in this particular moment. but thousands upon thousands of them are coming into places like richmond. and cities are becoming very full, and this is becoming an issue. and soldiers are coming in. and there is this, it is, chaos is maybe too strong of a word. but it is certainly chaotic. and the uncertainty and the fears that are wrapped up in all of these various groups. >> exactly of yeah. i'm going to check on our comments real quick. i have to sort of page over there. let's take a minute to look at who's out there and see if there are any questions or comments for us. we tw dave from the uk. and dave from illinois so they
have formed a little dave cohort that is always here. so they, we do have an international show today. dave bradley in the uk is enjoying it. he says hello. and zachary goforth is watching of. he says hello. we van answer to one of the questions we didn't quite know and that is john willened has chimed in to say the table used by general grant is definitely at the smithsonian national museum of american history. it was a gift of libby custer. >> that's right. >> the chairs are there also. and john is --. so that's our citation. >> i forgot the libby custer connection. very good. >> yes. and the -- yeah, didn't -- didn't sheridan give it to custer to give it to libby? >> right. >> isn't that weird. >> but custer was not in the room despite -- >> right. custer was not in the room.
right. i and -- we're back in the parlor. wasn't there a story shared, mcclain didn't want to sell his furniture and sheridan throw like twenty dollars on the ground and either keep the money or don't. i'm taking the furniture. that is bust one of the many stories i heard. shout outs. thanks for the program. i enjoyed the book. what's up next in terms of book projects? that we'll get to that. but he says go wahoos and that is from hampton -- >> oh. >> -- lots of great stuff. that's what we have here now and i'm check in again before we sign off. but i want to get back on the road because these confederates were having a good time. an interesting time out there on the road.
and this is something really interesting in your perspective of the book. you start from appomattox but then you look out. suddenly the story of appomattox and the post days starts to involve other places and the people there. so no longer confederate showed yers. so what's happening in placings like winchester virginia you talk about or farmville or lynch burg. and this is a place where women come in and become protagonists. and what's their story? >> and you ask about this and there are approximately 20 soldiers who weren't paroled in appomattox and some have gone home. and others are gone and waiting in place loosic the shenandoah valley to be called up by their officers to fight again. but it becomes quickly apparent to grant that he needs to issue these paroles or at least the
ability to grant paroles should be extended to all the fragments of the army of northern virginia, as he phrases it. so immediately even before the former surrender ceremony's happened at appomattox, farmville, just to the east of appomattox are issuing paroles. some of those men are men who are convalescing in confederate hospitals there. but the vast majority are men who should have been at appomattox and they have not surrendered there. they hear about these parole terms which many did not expect to be so generous and magnanimous and so they turn themselves in. and it happens as far as winchester. i was really surprised at the number of men that were paroled in winchester. somewhere around 2,000 that i've found so far and i'm sure there are more out there. hancock, winfield has hancock in
command there. and he not only has the exchange of letters between lee and grant. he has that published. printed. it is nailed up throughout winchester and the lower valley. and i think that's as evidence of, look, this really did happen. for any nay sayers who might not believe that lee has actually surrendered, here is evidence. and he issues stern warnings. come in, get paroled or you will be arrested and be imprisoned and. and this does happen in some b instances. he sends cavalry up and down valley. and those that come in on their own will be paroled. those that aren't. are hauled off to prison and who knows when they will be paroled. at least they don't know in that moment. so throughout virginia, the northern neck t peninsula, the shenandoah valley, into west virginia, maryland, even into
the carolinas, men from lee's army are finding their ways to provost marshals and other union officials and being paroled. >> so surrenders happen everywhere. hancock is the person that a lot of people surrendered too. not grant at appomattox. which -- when was i thinking about. oh, which brings us to not everybody gets these generous terms. there is one confederate officer and his men who by name have excluded from the generous terms. who is that and why? >> yes, that would be colonel john s. most mosby. mosby and his partisan rangers or as the union high command
would refer to them as guerillas. are at first very briefly excluded from these blanket paroles. but there will be all of these negotiations. hancock will play a role in this. and mosby will meet with union officials twice, kind of dangling in front of them the possibility that he will come in and surrender his command. that the 43rd battalion had been, you know, just a pain in the neck for those union forces in and around northern virginia. and they want that quelled. in large part. and this is another undercurrent throughout the book, that grant, and also sherman, are fearful of guerilla warfare. we started talking about porter alexander and his question to lee. but even though it might not have been the reality, there as fear that we cannot underestimate that grant and others had of confederates
refusing to seek a parole. and fighting the war by other means via some type of guerilla warfare. so mosby is high on that list. so mosby is throughout the story. >> it also affects if loyal states and what are the decisions people make in the loyal states to suddenly, wait a minute, confederates are not only in one place. they are everywhere. what are we going to do to protect ourselves in maryland and other places? >> so that is a an important point i'm glad you brought up. this isn't just a story of what happens in virginia or even the former confederacy. all of this is spilling out and rippling out into other places. none more so than those
slave-holding states who had remained loyal to the union. the border states as we call them. and the big question is going to be for hancock, for grant, for ultimately the attorney general of the united states whether or not confederate soldiers from loyal states and specifically this is maryland, missouri kentucky and delaware. not west virginia. whether or not they can return to their homes. have they committed such a crime in leaving their loyal states and going to fight for the rebel army that they no longer have homes. and i'll offer this as a tease without getting into all of that. there is so much we could get into here. but this is a problem. and as the problem that local citizen wills take into their own hands.
and if the government isn't going to effective li deal with this, then they will deal with. west virginia becomes its own unique case because grant and speed both say west virginia doesn't quite fit the mold. it was part of virginia and when virginia left, west virginia didn't exist so there wasn't ordinance of succession, so people can go back there. loyal west virginians do not like the sound of this. about 18,000 confederates or people from west virginia who fought for the confederacy. and this is going to be really problematical. >> right. these men left a seceding state and they are going return to a loyal state. >> right. so what happens if they are paroled and perhaps pardoned, granted their citizenship back, and then now they are a voting bloc. what is going to play out then? >> -- and charleston and all these places.
>> yeah. and why do we want these disloyal men back in our midst. it is one thing to send confederates home to states that seceded where the vast majority of the population supported the confederacy. it is another to send them home to places where they aren't wanted and that becomes very clear in the summer of '65. >> yeah. >> i'll tell you this, professor janney. and this happens all the time. and we should be getting used to it in a house divided. somewhere around the point of 10 minutes left in the interview everybody watching suddenly gets a ha. now i have a question. and so i am going to set my -- i have great questions. i love to read my questions. i'll read them to myself later. but let's look at -- let's leap back over to the folks watching on facebook live because there are some great questions over here. so i'm going to the feed you a
few. and it depends on how much time. let me just ask you straight up how much time you have. i don't want us to go a long time but five minutes maybe if we go long? >> we can do five minutes over. >> okay. part of it depends on how quickly you answer the questions. okay. lynn bristol wants to know how cert -- this is a good question. how certifiable were the paroles? was a there a watermark? how does someone tell they are looking at a genuine parole pass? >> okay. so i assume you mean parole pass and not -- >> i think asking about -- >> okay. and just to clarify there are the parole lists that were kept. there was a master, all of the lists were then compiled. those different than the parole pass. the parole pass is what is issued to each individual man, that were mass printed at appomattox, like the one you showed. there are like three different
designs. that is another story for another time. so those were given blank so either the regiment or the brigade commander in some cases. so they are the people who filled them. in to be clear it is not union officers or union soldiers filling these in. confederates are filling them in. there is no way to certify this. there is no, you know, you don't have any id to show that this matches the person you say it is. but there were also lots of blank passes and many of them are not filled out until the men leave. if they have been marching from appomattox, say they have made their way to just north of danville, virginia. they have headed south towards the carolinas and the officer decides, you know what, we can't stay together. let me fill these out. there are blank passes and there are a handful of instances that i found throw letters and diaries where people recount,
yeah i had a blank pass. i tell the tale of two soldiers who went into maryland and get into hot water with a maryland congressman. and one of them says that he had a blank pass, that he just filled out himself. so there is no way to certify. but i'll offer this one little bit. there is paroles issuesed it a places like winchester. there are more information on those paroles. they include a description of the person, includes their hair color, eye color, their complexion. so there are physical descriptions that i think are meant in part to serve as a legitimacy test. this man is in fact -- because those -- ah, i should point out. those parole passes that aren't from appomattox were issued by union officials. >> okay. let me see here what -- we have a question from doug crosic in
kentucky. hello doug. and he's written a good question. let me take a look it a quickly before, okay. good question, doug. doug say, "i would imagine that the surrender -- i would imagine that when the surrender occurred, the confederate currencies worth crushed to zero. so particularly among confederate soldiers, was there a great amount of theft, robbiery, physical violation on the road home? >> that is one of the questions that i was looking forery, phys the road home? >> that is one of the questions that i was looking for. i would say that it certainly happened. but more often than not, at least in the accounts nar left, both on the home front and by the soldiers themselves, many of them kept diaries on their way
home. they were meticulous in recording who they got food from, who provided them shelter and who did not provide them shelter. they liked to point out people who refused them. but there were also numerous instance in which they do talk about taking, especially from african americans. in particular they are looking for quartermaster depots. and they find several oaf them along the way. outside of what's now roanoke, virginia and danville, virginia, greensboro, north carolina. there is a reason they are heading to some of these places. they know that there are stores of food and other provisions. so it did happen. i think it happened less than i expected i might find. >> okay. okay. and thank you very much, doug. and finally, dave bradley from the uk wants to know, "would you
agree that lee's admonishment greatly reduced the amount of ex confederates becoming lawless guerillas? >> it is always hard. i think if i was a betting person i would say yes it did reduce. i think this is part of the reason that grant is so adamant that the paroles be upheld. and something i really dig into in the second half of the book, when many in john's cabinet are questioning whether they should be upheld. and grant is saying look, if we don't uphold them, then this could e devolve into something much worse. so i think grant, as much as lee, and grant's insistence upon upholding the terms of parole, even when others were questioning the extent to which they were in fact -- many confederates read them as a blanket pardon.
they weren't. and i talk about state of war and legal realities in much of the book. but i do think grant was instrumental in preventing more of that violence. we might have expected a lot more. >> okay. thank you very much, dave. i have one more thing i want to share. because it has something to do with parole versus past. and oath of aleengs. and it also is something we have here and i can share with you. you can see it behind me right now but here's closeup. skap if you decide go go out and get yourself an abraham lincoln signature. this is one of the most common abraham lincoln signature that exists. it is an endorsement. most of the time it is cutoff of the letter. and the rest of the letter is thrown away. but it was very popular. i didn't do it by the way.
people did it a long time ago when they were collecting lincolns. but it is this. lincoln probably wrote more than any other time "let this man take the oath of december 8, 1863 and be discharged, abe lincoln." in this case he signs december 31, 1864. and in this case, just more those who want to come and see it later, i'll put a link in the comments to where you can see this. it is signed by a. lincoln and andrew johnson. and carey and i were just talking how many times were those men in the same room together? maybe three? so it -- this is a very interesting -- a very interesting lincoln. but what it tells us is it refer to let this man take the oath of december 8, 1863 and be discharged. what is the law that lincoln is
talking about there? and how does that affect these confederates at the end of the war? >> in december of '63 lincoln issued what became known as the 10% plan that would pardon any confederate below rank of colonel who voluntarily surrendered or put down his weapon and quit fighting the union. johnson when he comes into office, he's really wondering to what extent lincoln's war-time program, has wartime pardon policy is going to -- and amnesty. that was amnesty. there is a difference between amnesty and pardon. amnesty is a blanket and covers almost everyone. you stand up, take the oath and you are covered. the pardon is for those excluded under amnesty and have to apply individually. the short version of this is, a pardon did imply complete protection from prosecution. you could not be prosecuted if you were issued a pardon. the question is, had the parole
passes -- had the paroles -- not the passes, had the paroles already served that function? or was there going to be this next step, would you have to follow through with a pardon? and this will become one of the really contentious issues, especially among andrew johnson and grant in the summer of 1865. >> all right. all right. well thank you very much, everybody, for participating. i'm going to have to get back to the issue at hand. and there is so much that we didn't cover. this is such a great book and there is so much that bewe didn't. we didn't cover, what, congressman harris there in maryland. but you will have to read about it because it is a really great. well you talked about the two confederate soldiers that testified against him. and we didn't talk too much about west virginia and all of that. and there is so much more to talk about around appomattox and all that. but you will need to get the
book. and the book is coming from north carolina press who we once again thank for publishing this book and epiing us set up this book signing and interview for you. 331 pages. there are illustrations and maps and i forgot to write down the price but presumably you can go to on website and give us that amount and we'll send it to you. cspan offers a variety of pod casts that have something for every