>> mrs. daniel thank you so much for your testimony. we'll -- i want to acknowledge two members of the committee who are here or one who's been here and will be back i guess, senator collins is here with us. ranking member scott made reference, senator collins to the years when you were chair and producing the fraud and scams book. that the committee has been using for so many years. so we thank you for being here. senator braun was with us earlier. and i want to acknowledge senator braun's attendance at the hearing and maybe will be back here. we'll take a brief recess now to vote, at least so that ranking member scott and i can vote and then we'll come back and resume the hearing.

the hearing. >> okay. the hearing will resume and um i wanted to start by um uh acknowledging that senator gillibrand senator okay if hearing will resume. and i wanted to start by acknowledging that senator

gillibrand and senator warnock have joined us via webex. and i'll start with my questions and then turn to ranking member scott. i wanted to start with kate kleinert. kate, kate, as i mentioned, your story is so powerful. and unfortunately for america, it is not unique. i think every member of the committee was moved by what you said. as i said, your written testimony was powerful enough, but hearing it directly from you had a big impact on me, and, i know, other members. so we're grateful you're here and we're grateful your story can help other seniors when there are scammers out there and perpetrators of fraud trying to rip people off. i wanted to focus on one part of your story and the story of many

others, kate. you said that -- or you know, i should say, that social isolation is not something new for seniors. but for many people, the pandemic made this terrible isolation that much worse. so do you believe the pandemic left you more susceptible to being scammed? >> i really do. when i think back to the beginning of the pandemic, when we were first locked down, and it was so strange to be home without any physical contact with other folks, not seeing your family. it was very hard and upsetting to be by yourself. so i think when this man was kind to me on the facebook, that i did react to it more than i would have at any other time. >> i think that's understandable. i thought it was noteworthy,

among many things you said, that as much as you lost a significant dollar amount, some $39,000, i was just recounting that to some reporters in the hallway as we went out to vote, but i was struck as well by what you said on page 3 of your testimony, where you said, quote, the loss that hurts the most was losing his love and losing the family i thought i was going to have and what my new future was going to be. that tells us so much about how devastating these scams can be. so kate, we're grateful for your testimony. i may be able to come back to you later with some other questions. this question i'll direct to ms. williamson and mrs. daniel together. and it doesn't matter who answers first, but as we just

made reference to in kate's testimony, she shared that only one person, an employee at a retail story, warned her that she might be a victim -- or might be a target of a scam. businesses and financial institutions are of course uniquely situated to respond to these attempts to rip people off. but often the employees of those institutions aren't trained to detect fraud or to speak in a sensitive and effective manner to the consumer, to give them a heads-up based upon their experience and their training. as i mentioned, our bill, the bipartisan stop senior scams act, would fill in these gaps in both knowledge and training so that we have more instances, so it's not just in kate's case one person, but more than one person giving people a heads up.

so in your view, i guess we'll start with mrs. daniel just to go in order, in your view, would this legislation help reduce the risk, the risk of older americans being defrauded? >> yes, i would think that it would. there's lots of reports out there about, you know, with education and everything, that, i mean, i think it's very important with the education, with the risk that we're talking about, you know, i think it would definitely help. you know, i think that during the covid-19, it was more risky. and it still is because covid is still going on. so i would say definitely, it is. >> ms. williamson? >> i would also support the legislation. i think we need more tools to

prevent -- to fight these scams up front. and simply the retail employees are the first line of defense. they're in these stores day in and day out. they know their customers. if they have more training and more information on these scams, they can simply warn the victims not to complete this transaction. and it's simply better to not have the elder transfer away that money than to try to get that money back on the back end. there are just fewer options to retrieve that money once it is transferred away. >> thank you very much. as you were answering the question, i'm reminded of a story from years ago on this committee where we heard a story about someone who was a target of a scam, and it wasn't until he was in the parking lot of the bank where he was about to transfer money that he got someone to interrupt and say,

you've got to think about this before you go into the bank. so the more people that can provide that warning, the better. i'll turn next to ranking member scott. >> mr. chairman, i'll defer my opening questions to my brother from another mother, senator scott from florida. >> i think we need a microphone. >> you worry about them every day, whether someone will try to take advantage of them. when you hear this story about somebody who acts romantically interested in takes somebody's life savings, it's very difficult for law enforcement to track these people down and prosecute them. and it's so large. your heart goes out to people that this happens to.

my first question is for ms. greisman. i want to thank you for everything you do to bring justice to the criminals who take advantage of our older americans. are there any additional resources or authorities that you and your team need to carry out your mission? >> senator scott, i appreciate the question. the main tool we need back is our ability to obtain, effectively, efficiently obtain monetary relief under section 13-b of the federal trade commission act. a remedy to fix that is what is truly needed so that we can put money back in people's pockets, money back to people who are defrauded. >> yeah, we've put out information out of our office to get the seniors, to try to get them to do it.

ms. kleinert, first off, i just want to tell you that it's disgusting that this happened. it's disgusting that this individual took your money and also disgusting that he gave you, you know, hope when he shouldn't have. criminals like this are despicable. what advice do you give others to make sure this doesn't happen to them? is there anything, when you look back, you could say, gosh, there was a red flag i didn't see, that maybe somebody else will say -- they'll see your testimony and the same thing won't happen to them? >> i've really been astonished at the amount of information that's been said today, things that are out there, programs that are out there, and i knew nothing about them. so i think there's a gap between what's being done and the senior citizens. and we need to close that

somehow. i'm not so sure the education of the retail personnel is the way to go. if i'm in the line at a drugstore buying a gift card and there's a 19-year-old kid behind the cash register, i don't think i'm going to listen to him about the dangers of buying that gift card. but i think there needs to be some kind of a pamphlet, a brochure that has statistics, warning signs, and where to go, not sitting at the cash register to take one if you want one, not being handed to you by the cashier if he says would you like to have this, but to be automatically put in the bag when you're purchasing a gift card. just put it in the bag. people will go home. a lot of them will throw it away. but many more, when they're by themselves, will sit and read this and take it to heart. there has to be more education out there and it has to be more

visible to the senior citizens. get commercials on the television. show scenarios of scams and how they come about. and tell people that you're not dumb for falling for it, that these people are so sophisticated and so good at what they do that you're not being stupid or making bad decisions by being taken in by these people. they're smarter than you are. >> have you gotten much media attention, has the media been interested in your story? >> i have been interviewed for a newspaper article earlier in the spring, and aarp asked me to do a podcast. i've done two podcasts. but that's been it. >> okay. mrs. vee daniel, i want to thank you for the work you've done. do you think that local businesses have the resources they need to educate their staff on potential fraudulent activity, and is there anything

else that you think that we ought to be doing to help our small businesses to do a better job to stop this? >> i think -- well, thank you, senator scott, great question. i think there is definitely more education that can be done. as i mentioned, most of our savvy seniors are groups, and we do small business webinars to our accredited businesses and nonaccredited businesses. i think there's definitely more education we can do with small businesses to, you know, alert them, the small business owners, and their staffs of the -- you know, the provision tips and what to look out for. definitely, in our area we cover ten counties. we're a staff of nine. and, you know, we try to do the best that we can. but i think definitely with more collaboration, just like we did with aarp this past year, and

collaboration with government agencies to be able to provide more education. >> thank you. thank you, chairman. >> senator scott, thanks very much. i'll turn to ranking member scott. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ms. daniel, under your leadership the better business bureau is making a difference in the lives of fellow south carolinians. the savvy senior program provides tips on how to spot the latest scams. have you heard from golden americans who utilize the lessons they learned from the program and applied it to their lives? >> yes. and that's the rewarding part. therewarding part is, when you hear someone who says our prevention tips or red flags helped stop them from becoming the next victim, it's rewarding. i can tell a little bit of a story we had that -- a short story, but i had an executive,

he was a retired executive of a very large business here in the area, he came into the office and wanted to talk because he had a new employment job that he was starting to feel a little -- you know, he wasn't sure whether it was a scam or not. so he came in and talked to us. and, you know, he said that basically what he was doing was he had someone contact him about a job opportunity which was offering a lot of money, and what he was going -- what he started doing was packaging up items that were shipped to him by his employer and then he would reship them to someone else. as soon as he said that, because we've seen that before, it's called employment scam. we just immediately told him, you need to stop, what you're doing is wrong, you should be not making that much money.

and then he says, i haven't even been paid. and he had been doing it for while. so then i said, you need to stop. and he agreed. he agreed. about a couple of weeks later we heard back from him and he told me that he got a call from the mall of america, an investigator from the mall of america, and that what he was doing was wrong, because what he was shipping was actually bought from stolen credit cards. so he called me and asked me if i would reach out to the investigator from mall of america, so i did. i let him know the guy is up and up, he was a leader in our community, and he just got intertwined with something that he thought was right, it was wrong. so there was no charges or anything. actually they worked with him later on, we don't really know

all the specifics there, but, you know, without him coming into the office and talking to us, he could have been indicted or he could be in jail now. so, you know, that's just one example. >> that's a very good example, thank god for your hard work and your dedication on such an important issue. let me ask you one other question before i turn to ms. greisman. given your background and extensive experience with the better business bureau, can you help us understand how to help our seniors who live in rural america? sometimes they don't get the same level of information and they're not perhaps as connected to broadband. they may not have broadband connections. they may not have the same access to information as folks who live in more suburban areas. is there a way that the savvy senior program helps to encourage and inform our rural

golden americans? >> yes. the savvy senior program does. and it's very short, basically the program over the years has presented to senior groups in all parts of our ten counties that we cover, even rural areas. and what i say is whether we drive ten miles or a hundred, we never say no to presenting education to seniors about scams and fraud. >> excellent, thank you very much. ms. greisman, thank you for your work, and certainly your expertise. i'm certainly proud to co-sponsor with chairman casey senate bill 337, the stop senior scams act, which creates an advisory group with industry stakeholders and leading and regulatory bodies to identify opportunities for consumers, companies, policymakers and law enforcement to protect our aging community. in light of your work with the commission, could you please speak to how this new advisory group can serve to optimize the

commission's current practices without duplicating work that has already been done at the federal level? >> thank you, senator scott. we're keen to work with you and your staff on any type of legislation that will enhance and improve our ability to serve older adults and to do so more efficiently. so we look forward to working with you on that. >> thank you, ma'am. mr. chairman? >> ranking member scott, thanks very much. we're awaiting some other senators. i wanted to continue the question period that i had and i'll pick up with where the ranking member left off with the witness, in this case ms. greisman. we've heard kate's story earlier that i made reference to, and you heard kate kleinert's testimony. and in particular, of course, what she's identified is a particular kind of scam, a romance scam. and we know that she's not

alone. unfortunately this is one of the areas where there is an awful lot of increase or growth in that kind of a scam. in fact, the federal trade commission reported a significant increase in reports of these scams between 2019 and 2020, as americans became more isolated. i just looked in your testimony, ms. greisman, i'm looking at page 4. it says, quote, for older adults, reported losses to romance scams increased from nearly $84 million in 2019 to about $139 million in 2020. so 84 to 139. and they're millions of dollars, every time it moves up the scale, millions of dollars. and then it goes on to say -- your testimony, i should say, goes on to say, among older adults hardest hit were the

60-69 and 70-79 age groups. so basically everybody over 60, between 60 and 80, which reported over $29 million -- $129 million in losses reported by that age group, making romance scams the category of highest reported losses for both groups. so obviously a lot of money in a big -- a big cohort of americans being affected by this. so ms. greisman, here's my question. based on this uptick of romance scams and all the dollars lost because of it during the pandemic, what work is the commission doing to both educate consumers and to prevent or help consumers prevent themselves from being preyed upon by these so-called romance scammers?

>> thank you, chairman. first of all, let me say that ms. kleinert is indeed a compelling ambassador, and her testimony is courageous. and it highlights how sophisticated romance scammers are and how they work hard to build trust and cause enormous harm. one of the main payment systems that romance scammers use are money transfers. and the ftc in recent years has sued each of the major money transfer networks, money gram and western union. money gram recently failed to live up to the requirements of a prior order to crack down on fraudulent transfers across its network. and western union facilitated, allegedly facilitated fraudulent transfers across its system. it goes a long way to minimizing the harm from romance scams.

on the education front, our signature education campaign. but what we have seen, and i think what ms. kleinert's testimony underscores, is how important it is that people have knowledge of scams. and that is a primary goal of the ftc, to educate, to push out information, to do it at local, state, and federal levels, work with our partners at the better business bureau's consumers groups, aarp, getting information out there so people are aware of the type of scams we know from research makes it less like they will fall prey to that scam. >> well, thanks very much. i'm going to cede the rest of my time to senator gillibrand. >> yes, thank you, mr. chairman, thank you, ms. greisman, for your testimony in the answer to the chairman's last question. i just have a followup question. how can the ftc do more to get

information out to seniors in all their communities so they can recognize this fraud more? i've been to assisted living facilities across new york and i've heard story after story, stealing life savings, the grandchild scam, you know, all the different kinds of ways -- the irs scam. and it doesn't end. and we know that a lot of these artists are -- scam artists are criminals, criminal networks. i know we arrested a criminal network from india, one from russia. the fbi works to subvert these kinds of frauds. but i feel that the ftc needs to work perhaps a different way to make financial institutions more aware, to make sure seniors are more aware, to make sure places where seniors go, assisted

living facilities, are more aware. what can you do to help solve this problem? >> senator, maximizing our outreach, maximizing our ability to reach in the communities is just a top priority. and it is a challenge. it's especially more so, a special challenge, given the pandemic. i assure you our outreach efforts are constantly being rethought, reevaluated. it is our goal to reach into the communities at the grassroots levels, through local organizations, to the public libraries, through legal services. we have a tremendous network of contacts and we're constantly tapping them, both to push out information so that they have access to the resources we have and can use in their communities and also to receive information from them, to inform our law enforcement work and our education -- >> so is your outreach including sort of this urgency that if they are scammed, that they're going to report these scams?

because obviously, if we don't give the fbi the information and law enforcement the information to go after them, they will have less data and information to be successful. >> a core piece of information that is indispensable to all of our outreach is to report what they're hearing. go to [ inaudible ]. it is incredibly report that we receive that information so we know what's going on and we can be proactive -- >> are you asking the institutions to do the reporting? because i can promise you, no senior that's been scammed is going to want to go to a website and report the scam. so they're not willing to go to the police in the first place, they're not going to go to a website. are you asking living facilities and financial institutions to do the reporting? >> we do receive data from certain contributors in the private sector such as money gram, western european, better

business bureaus. i'm not aware that any financial institutions report directly to us but that's certainly something that we will give thought to. i appreciate it. >> and ms. kleinert, thank you so much for sharing your story. i know it's a horrible, horrible thing. but you are very courageous and you can prevent what happened to you from happening to other people. can you tell us what you wish was available for you or how would you have been able to be warned more effectively, what would have worked for you? and what type of interventions or resources would be helpful for you and your friends? >> i think we need to get more of this information out to the people. i had no idea where to go. i tried reporting my problem to the police, but couldn't get them to listen to me. so that was very discouraging, and i was giving up at that point. i did call the aarp fraud line

and got a very nice man, and that is important too, to have someone who is compassionate and not speaking down to you, not talking to you like you're senile and can't make good decisions, because that isn't true. you already feel that way anyway, by yourself. you don't need someone else reinforcing that. so -- >> and to be honest, ms. kleinert, these are highly sophisticated criminals. >> yes. >> this criminal enterprise of senior fraud is worth hundreds of billions of dollars every year. it is not a small thing. and you guys are their primary targets, because seniors together have over $1 trillion of assets. so you are a very rich target for these criminal networks. so i guess what you're saying is you would like law enforcement to be better informed so they could have put you in touch with the right people, police departments. >> yes. >> so that might be a way, ms.

greisman, to reach out to law enforcement so that the ftc can actually brief every police department in america, you know, over the next several years, would be great, because, you know, if ms. kleinert has an instinct to report this to the police and the police make fun of her or don't take her seriously or say, well, you're stupid, then not only does ms. kleinert not get justice or doesn't get to effectively report, but it's going to make her feel that it was her fault. and that's exactly the opposite of the nature of these crimes. they are highly sophisticated adversaries who are doing everything they can to steal resources. is that something the ftc can do, ms. greisman? >> we do work closely with local police offices and have -- >> have you put together a training for them, like even

just a deck of slides for police departments to use to train all police officers? >> i don't know that we've specifically done a training for police officers. but we do have a toolkit, actually, on stopping gift card scams. and the driving force and message is that gift cards are for gifts and that toolkit is targeted toward retailers, and it gives them information they can display in their stores. >> that's super helpful. maybe then -- i mean, on this committee we'll have recommendations, because that's what our committees do, but just from this hearing alone, i hope that you will take some of the information you learned here and implement it. >> thanks very much. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thanks, senator gillibrand. we'll turn to senator blumenthal. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you to you and senator scott for having this hearing. i would like to talk about

robocalls, which are a bane of all of our existence, but most especially i think for seniors. i hear from them all the time. in 2019 i supported the passage of the telephone robocall abuse criminal enforcement and deterrence act, known as the t.r.a.c.e. act, which directed the ftc to establish standards to protect consumers from unauthenticated numbers and to work with providers to verify the legitimacy of incoming calls. this law has worked in part, not an ultimate answer, but now nearly 95% of high risk robocalls do not originate from the six largest carriers. unfortunately, smaller internet-based providers who have until 2023 to work within

the fcc's requirements now account for the majority of these robocalls. they continue to prey on our seniors. they do so especially in these times of pandemic, when seniors and all of us are particularly vulnerable to these pitches. so let me ask you, ms. williamson, how effective are robocallers in reaching consumers, particularly older americans? >> thank you for your questions. scams aimed at older adults are primarily perpetrated over the telephone. so the protections that you mentioned are critical to helping older adults avoid these types of scams. and we certainly thank you for your efforts on that. and we also believe that their protections should be enhanced to further clarify that with respect to the tcpa, that

solicitation, the prohibition applies to scam calls. we need further protection against spoof calls and we absolutely support the fcc's efforts on that end to date. and we also need to tamp down on other loopholes such as the fake charity scams and make sure that when consumers, when older adults are being requested to put their hard-earned money to help others, that those charities are actually legitimate. >> taking that point, i think it's an important point about charity scams. how much have you seen a rise in those charity scams during the pandemic? is there an increase? what would you say about charity scams? >> so, certainly we don't have data on the charity scams.

we just have information that we've heard from consumers and advocates. and what we have heard is that there is indeed an uptick in these types of fake charity scams, that older adults at home, isolated, wanting to help in some way, are being victimized by these types of scams. so we do -- are looking to put more protections in place to help avoid those types of scams. >> do you find that seniors are particularly vulnerable to these scams, as we have found when i was attorney general of connecticut, during times of crisis, in cases of natural disaster, whether it's hurricanes, floods, we've seen a lot of both and other weather events. is there an increased vulnerability because of those natural disasters? >> absolutely. scammers read the headlines. they follow what's happening.

especially if they're outside the united states, they follow -- track what is happening in terms of disasters, in terms of other issues coming up in the news. and they tailor their scams to fit those details. so if there is a natural disaster, if there is a fire, flood, in an area, they are targeting consumers in those areas. they're targeting older adults. they are targeting people they know to be sympathetic, who they know to be charitable, to get them to turn over their hard-earned money to them. >> what i have advised seniors is they should contribute and be generous but make sure they know that the organization that they're supporting is in fact the one that they really want to

support. in other words, americares, the red cross, these organizations are established. would you agree? >> i absolutely agree there are ways to research the charity and make sure that it is legitimate, make sure that it will help the people you intend -- that your money will help the people you intend your money to be directed towards. there are so many ways to absolutely find out about the background of the organization. so we always advise for consumers to be wary, that if they're being solicited over the phone to research the organization through other means, and to really give their money to reputable charities. >> thank you very much, ms. williamson. thanks, mr. chairman. >> thanks very much, senator blumenthal. the vote, second vote just started almost about ten minutes into the vote so we've got to hustle. we'll hear from senator rosen

who rejoined us, senator kelly, and then we'll close. senator rosen. >> thank you. i've already voted, i was presiding in the chair. thank you, chairman casey, ranking member scott. this is a really important hearing. scams against seniors are nothing new and they're only increasing in scope and severity. and i appreciate you holding this important hearing, and for all the witnesses hear today, for the important work that you do. of course nevada is no different than some of the other states, or most other states. and we have a lot of challenges in health scams, particularly now of course with the pandemic. so, you know, one of the challenges throughout the pandemic has just been the unchecked spread of misinformation, disinformation, of course resulting in an increase in scams, especially those targeted at seniors. in fact according to the federal trade commission, in 2020, nevadans over the age of 60 lost over $36.5 million to scams.

that's a lot of money. some of the most common covid-19 scams in nevada related to those involving the creation and distribution of fake vaccine cards and contact tracing scam in which scammers pose as health department officials, asking for sensitive personal information such as your medicare or social security number. fortunately our attorney general, his office has compiled a list of covid-19-related scams and tips on how to avoid falling victim to people have resources where to check if they're able. and as elected officials, i believe we have to do as much as we can to get the word out about these scams. so ms. greisman, 40, i want to really clear the air for nevada seniors and get this out everywhere i can. would a legitimate tax department official ever ask for a senior's personal information like your medicare or social

security number for contact tracing for covid-19? >> no. no. no legitimate entity would make an unsolicited request for that kind of personal information. >> thank you. i'm going to reiterate that. no legitimate entity would make a request for that personal information. thank you. and of course i know you've been speaking about this, but for those who do fall victim and they do get their sensitive personal information, when they fall victim now to a covid-related scam, can you talk about, ms. williamson, some of the resources available to the senior or someone who is helping them, maybe another family member or a caregiver, to help recover that information and reverse potential damage? >> sure. so there are many resources available to older adults who have fallen victims to scams and frauds. i think the first line of defense is for the older adult and his or her advocate to

really audit all of their financial accounts. call their banks, call the credit card company. make sure that they reach out to law enforcement organizations. and of course the ftc has a great part of their website that will help victims as well, so i would refer folks to that as well. what's also important is to reach out to the irs or the social security administration if there has been a disclosure of personally identifiable information. make sure those organizations as well know that you've been victimized by this scam. it's also important really to reach out to a legal services organization or to another lawyer to make sure that you protect whatever money or assets you have remaining, because if the fraudsters really have your financial information, they could be wrecking, doing damage to not only your credit report but also trying to seek other assets that you may have.

>> thank you. we've been really proud, because our u.s. attorney in nevada appointed a covid-19 fraud coordinator to lead investigations to help with just the kind of things you're talking about. and the attorney general announced the creation of the covid-19 task force to help protect nevadans, all of them, not just seniors. there are 15 agencies, fbi, inspector general, the post office, police departments. we're really trying to pull together to protect people. and because we did this, nevada ranked first amongst all states in the reported number of total fraud reports in 2020 with a whopping number of over 35,000 frauds reported, fraud reports.

now 18 months into this pandemic, what can you -- what lessons have we learned from these types of task forces that we can import to other states to help protect people? >> just for the information, because we have to vote -- >> i'll take it off the record, thank you. >> if we can do that in writing, that would be better. thank you, senator rosen, for coming back to the hearing and being with us. senator kelly. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. ms. greisman, i wanted to follow up on senator blumenthal's question about robocalls. arizona ranked first in complaints to the ftc about the do not call registry or the do not call list. arizonans are getting these calls all hours of the day, some folks are getting hundreds of calls in a week. nobody can blame arizonans for being frustrated about this. i think we all are. there has been a fair amount of activity in the courts this year

related to the tcpa, the telephone consumer protection act. so could you give us an update where things stand, penalties, maybe an example of a specific case, and what congress can or should do in order to better protect our constituents? >> senator kelly, obviously robocalls, unwanted calls, whether live or rerecorded, are a significant consumer protection issue. each month the ftc is receiving some 450,000 complaints from consumers about unwanted calls. typically 68% of them relate to robocalls. ftc has a vibrant program to combat robocalls. we've recently settled with cruise line grand bahamas. we brought some 150 law enforcement actions and coordinated with all of our

state partners including arizona. so both in terms of law enforcement and consumer outreach, it's a significant part of the work that we do. >> do you know, what is the rate of robocalls? is the number that consumers are receiving, has it been lately trending up or down? >> [ inaudible ] reported to us, it's held pretty stable at about 450,000 a month. what we're seeing are the call blocking technologies are working. recently stir shaken has been deployed among the larger carriers, and senator blumenthal mentioned this, in june of this year. and obviously a lot of issues remain with the smaller voip service providers that senator blumenthal also talked about. we've sued a number of them, our state partners have sued them, doj has sued them.

so there is significant law enforcement work to clamp down on these unwanted calls. we're not there, there's no question about that. but i assure you, we're hard at issue. >> please let us know if there's anything you need from congress here to make your job easier. and thank you, and i yield back the remainder of my time. >> thank you, senator kelly. in light of the fact that the vote is now into overtime, i think we have to close right now. but i'll be submitting a statement for the record as i understand senator or ranking member scott will as well. let me just say this for the record, two things. number one, we want to thank our witnesses for the testimony they've brought to us today on these terrible scams and ways we can prevent them, and for the record, if any senator has additional questions for witnesses or statements to be added, the hearing record will be open for seven days until thursday, september 30. thank you all for being here. we are adjourned.

get c-span on the go. watch the day's biggest political events live or on demand any time, anywhere, on

our new mobile video app, c-span app. access top highlights, listen to c-span radio, and access podcasts all for free. download c-span now for free. c-span offers a variety of podcasts that have something for every listener. weekdays, "washington today" gives you the latest from the nation's capital. every week "book notes plus" has in depth interviews with writers about their latest works. and we look at how issues of the day developed over years. and our occasional series "talking with" features extensive conversations with historians about their lives and work. many of our television programs are also available as podcasts. you can find them all on the c-span now mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. c-span is your unfiltered view of government.

we're funded by these television companies and more including charter communications. >> broadband is a force for empowerment. that's why charter has invested billions, building infrastructure, upgrading technology, empowering opportunity in communities big and small. charter is connecting us. >> charter communications supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. and now nasa officials testify on the future of low earth orbit space flight before a house subcommittee with the international space station nearing the end of its operational life. they talk about the knead for privately operated orbital outposts among other topics. this is just under two hours. >> distinguished witnesses, we're very pleased to have you with us today as we discuss nasa's future low earth orbit,