for your testimony. i want to acknowledge two members of the committee who were here or one who's been here and will be back. i guess senator collins is here with us. ranking member scott made reference, senator collins, to the years you were chair and producing the fraud and scams book the committee has been using for so many years. so we thank you for being here. senator braun was with us earlier, and i want to acknowledge senator braun's attendance at the hearing and maybe we'll be back here. we'll take a brief recess now to vote at least so that ranking member scott and i can vote, and then we'll come back and resume the hearing.

>> okay, the hearing will resume, and i want to start by acknowledging that senator gillibrand and senator warnock

have joined us via webex. i'll start with my questions and turn to ranking member scott. i want to start with kate. kate, as i for america, it is not -- it is not unique. i think every member was moved by what you said. your written testimony was powerful enough, but hearing it directly from you had a big impact on me and i know other members. so we're grateful you're here and we're grateful that your story can help other seniors when there are scammers out there and perpetrators of fraud trying to rip people off.

rip people off. i want to focus on one part of your story and the story of many others. you know i should say that social isolation is not something new for seniors, but for many people the pandemic made this terrible isolation that much worse. so do you believe the pandemic left you more susceptible to being scammed? >> i really do. when i think back to the beginning of the pandemic when we were first locked down and it was so strange to be home without any physical contact with other folks, not seeing your family, it was very hard and upsetting to be by yourself. so i think when this man was kind to me on facebook that i did react to it more than i would at any other time. >> yeah, i think that's understandable. i thought it was noteworthy

among many things you said that as much as you lost a significant dollar amount, some $39,000 -- i was just recounting that to some reporters in the hallway as we went out to vote -- but i was struck as well by what you said on page 3 of your testimony where you said, quote, the loss that hurts the most was losing his love and losing the family i thought i was going to have and what my new future was going to be. that tells us so much about how devastating these scams can be. so, kate, we're grateful for your testimony. and i may be able to come back to you later with some other questions. this question i'll direct to ms. williamson and mrs. daniel together. and it doesn't matter who answers first. we just made reference to in

kate's testimony she shared only one person, an employee at a retail store, warned her she might be a victim or a target of a scam. businesses and financial institutions are, of course, uniquely situated to respond to these attempts to rip people off. but often the employees of those institutions aren't trained to detect fraud or to speak in a sensitive and effective manner to the consumer, to give them a heads-up based upon their experience and their training. as i mentioned our bill, the bipartisan stop senior scams act, which fills in these gaps in both knowledge and training so that we have more instances so it's not just in kate's case one person but more than one person giving people a heads-up. so in your view and i guess maybe we'll start with mrs. daniel just to go in order.

in your view would this legislation help reduce the risk -- the risk of older americans being defrauded? >> yes, i would think that it would. you know, any -- there's lots of reports out there about education and everything that, i mean, i think it's very important with the education and with the risks that we're talking about, you know, i think it would definitely help. you know, i think during covid-19 it was more risky, and it still is because covid is still going on. so definitely i would say it is. >> ms. williamson? >> i would also support the legislation. i think we need more tools to prevent -- to fight these scams

upfront, and simply the retail employees are the first line of defense. they're in these stores day in and day out. they know their customers. if they have more training and more information on these scams they can simply warn victims not to complete this transaction. and it's simply better to not have the elder transfer away that money than to try to get that money back on the back end. tlsh just fewer options to retrieve that money once it is transferred away. >> well, thank you very much. just as you were answering the question i'm reminded of a story from years ago on this committee where we heard a story about someone was a target of a scam, and it wasn't until he was in the banking -- the parking lot of the bank where he was about to transfer money that he -- that he got someone to interrupt and say you got to think about this before you go into the

bank. so the more people that can provide that warning the better. i'll turn next to ranking member scott. >> mr. chairman, i'll defer my opening questions to my brother from another mother, senator scott from florida. [ inaudible ] >> you worry about them every day whether someone is going to take advantage of them. and when you hear this story of somebody that acts romantically interested and takes somebody's life savings, it devastates you because it's difficult for law enforcement to find these people and track them down and to be able to prosecute them. and it's so large. so your heart goes out to people this happens to.

my first question is for ms. griesman. first, i want to thank you for your hard work to protect our seniors and everything you do to bring justice to the criminals who take advantage of our older americans. are there any additional resources or authorities you and your team need to carry out your mission? >> senator scott, i appreciate the question. the main tool we need back is our ability to obtain -- effectively, efficiently obtain monitor relief under section 13b of the federal trade commission act, a remedy to fix that is what is truly needed so that we can put money back in people's pockets, money back to people who are defrauded. >> yeah. we've put out information out of our office to get to seniors to try to get them to do it.

first off, i just want to tell you that it's disgusting that this happened. it's disgusting this individual took your money and also disgusting that he gave you un -- gave you hope when he shouldn't have, so criminals like this are despicable. what advice do you give others to make sure this doesn't happen to them? and is there anything when you look back you could say, gosh, if i -- there was a red flag i didn't see that maybe somebody else will say, oh, they see your testimony and it simply won't happen to them? >> i've really been astonished at the amount of information that's been said today that things that are out there, programs that are out there. and i knew nothing about them. so i think there's a gap between what's being done when there are senior citizens and we need to close that somehow.

i'm not so sure the education of the retail personnel is the way to go. if i'm in a line at a drugstore buying a gift card and there's a 19-year-old kid behind a cash register with santa hat on, i don't think they're going to listen to him about the danger of buying that gift card. but i think there needs to be some kind of a pamphlet, a brochure that has statistics, warning signs, and where to go, not sitting at the cash register to take one if you want one, not being handed to by the cashier if she says would you like it to have this, but to be automatically put in the bag when you're purchasing a gift card. just put it in the bag, people will go home, a lot of them will throw it away. but many more when they're by themselves will sit and read this and take it to heart. there has to be more education out there, and it has to be more visible to the senior citizens. get commercials on the television.

show scenarios of scams and how they come about. and tell people that you're not dumb for falling for it, that these people are so sophisticated and so good at what they do, that you're not being stupid or making bad decisions by being taken in by these people. they're smarter than you are. >> have you gotten much media attention? has the media been interested in your story? >> i have been interviewed for a newspaper article earlier in the spring, and aarp asked me to do a podcast. i've done two podcasts, but that's been it. >> okay. mrs. daniel, i want to thank you for the work you've done. do you think that local businesses have the resources they need to educate their staff on potential fraudulent activity? and is there anything else that you think we ought to be doing

to help our small businesses to do a better job to stop this? >> i think -- well, thank you, senator scott. great question. i think there is definitely more education that can be done. as i mentioned most of our savvy seniors are groups, and we do small business webinars actually to our accredited businesses and nonaccredited businesses. but i think there's definitely more education we can do with small businesses to alert the small business owners and their staffs, you know, the prevention tips and what to look out for. definitely in our area we cover ten counties. we're a staff of nine, and we try to do the best that we can, but i think definitely with more collaboration just like we did with aarp this past year and more collaboration with government agencies to be able to provide more education.

>> thank you. thank you, chairman. >> senator scott, thank you very much. i'll next turn to ranking member scott. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'll direct my first question to ms. daniel. mrs. daniel, under your leadership the better business bureau is really making a difference in the lives of our fellow south south carolinians. the savvy senior program provides tips how to spot the latest scams. have you heard from golden americans who utilize the lessons they learn from the program and applied it to their lives? >> yes. and that's the rewarding part. i mean, the rewarding part is, you know, when you hear someone that says our prevention tips or red flags help them stop from becoming the next victim, it is very rewarding. i can tell a little bit of a story we had that -- a short

story -- but i had an executive and he was a retired executive of a very large business here in greenville area that came into the office. and he wanted to talk because he had a new employment job that he was starting to feel a little -- you know, he wasn't sure whether it was a scam or not. so he came in and talked to us and he said basically what he was doing was he had someone contact him about a job opportunity which was offering a lot of money, and he -- what he started doing was packaging up items that were shipped to him by his employer, and then he would reship them to someone else. and as soon as he said that, because we've seen that before, it's called the employment scam, and we just immediately told him you need to stop. what you're doing is wrong. you should be not making that

much money. and then he says, well, i haven't been paid. and he'd been doing it for a while. so then i said you need to stop, and he agreed. he agreed. about a couple weeks later we heard back from him, and he told me that he got a call from the mall of america -- an investigator from mall of america and that what he was doing was wrong. because what he was shipping was actually bought from stolen credit cards. so he called me and he asked me if i would reach out to the guy from mall of america, the investigator, and so i did. and so i let him know the guy was very up and up, he was a leader in our community. and, you know, he just got intertwined with something that he thought was right was wrong. and so there was no charges or anything, and actually they worked with him later on. we don't really know all the specifics there, but, you know, without him coming into the

office and talking about his worries he could have been indicted or he could be in jail now. you know, so that's just one example. >> that's a very good example. and thank god for your hard work and dedication on such an important issue. let me ask you one other question before i turn to ms. griesman. given your background and extensive experience with the better business bureau, can you help us understand how to help our seniors who live in rural america? sometimes they don't get the same level of information, and they're not perhaps as connected to broadband, and they may not have broadband connections. they may not have the same access to information as folks who live in more suburban areas. is there a way that the savvy senior program helps to encourage and inform our rule?

rural golden americans? >> yes, the savvy senior program does. it's very short. basically the program over the years is presented to senior groups in all parts of our ten counties that we cover, even rural areas. and what i say is whether we drive 10 miles or 100, we never say no to presenting to education to seniors about scams and fraud. >> excellent. thank you very much. ms. griesman, thank you for your work and certainly your expertise. i'm certainly proud to co-sponsor with chairman casey senate bill 337, the stop senior scams act, which creates an advisory group with industry stakeholders and leading and regulatory bodies to identify opportunities for consumers, companies, policy makers and law enforcement to protect our aging community. in light of your work with the commission, could you please speak to how this new advisory group can serve to optimize the commission's current practices without duplicating work that

has already been done at the federal level? >> thank you, senator scott. we're happy to work with you and your staff to serve older adults and to do so more efficiently. so we look forward to working with you on that. >> thank you, ma'am. >> mr. chairman? >> ranking member scott, thanks very much. we're awaiting some other senators. i wanted to continue the question period with one that i had, and i'll pick up where the ranking member left off with regard to the witness, in this case ms. griesman. we heard kate's story earlier i made reference to, and you heard kate kliner's testimony. and in particular, of course, what she's identified is a particular kind of scam, a romance scam, and we know that

she's not alone. unfortunately, this is one of the areas where there is an awful lot of increase or growth in that kind after scam. in fact, the federal trade commission reported a significant increase in reports of these scams between 2019 and 2020 as americans became more isolated. i just looked in your testimony, ms. griesman, looking at page 4. it says, quote, for older adults reported losses to romance scams increased from nearly 84 million in 2019 to about 139 million in 2020. so 84 to 139, and there are millions of dollars. and every time it moves up the scale millions of dollars. and then it goes on to say -- your testimony goes on to say among older adults hardest hit were 60 to 69 and 70 to 79 age groups.

so basically everybody over 60 to basically 60 and 80 which reported 129 million of the 2020 losses. meaning 129 of the 139 million in losses were reported by that age group. making romance scams the category of highest reported losses for both groups. so obviously a lot of money and a big cohort of americans being affected by this. so ms. griesman, here's my question. based on this uptick in romance scams and all the dollars lost because of it during the pandemic, what work is the commission doing to both educate consumers and to prevent or help consumers prevent themselves from being preyed upon by these so-called romance scammers? >> thank you, chairman. first of all, let me say ms.

kliner is indeed a compelling ambassador and her testimony is courageous tan highlights how sophisticated romance scams are and how they work hard to build trust and cause enormous harm. one of the main payment systems romance scammers use are money transfers. and the ftc in recent years has sued each of the major money transfer networks, money gram and western union. money gram failed to live up to crack down on fraudulent transfers across the network. and western union facilitated -- allegedly facilitated fraudulent transfers on its system. and i think that type of law enforcement work goes a long way toward minimizing the harm caused by wire transfers in connection with romance scams. on the education front pass it

on is our signature education campaign, but what we have seen, and i think what ms. kliner's testimony underscores, is how important it is that people have knowledge of scams. and that is the primary goal of the ftc, to educate, push out information and do it at the local, state, and federal levels, and work with our partners at the better business bureau, consumer groups, aarp, getting information out there so people are aware of the types of scams. we know from research makes it less likely they will fall prey to that scam. >> thank you very much. i'm going to cede the rest of my time and turn to senator gillibrand who i think is connected. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, ms. griesman, to your testimony and for the answer to the last question. i just have a follow-up question. how can the ftc do more to get information out to seniors and

all their communities so they can recognize this fraud more? i've been to assisted living facilities across new york and i've heard story after story, stealing life savings, the grandchild scam, the, you know, all the different kinds of ways -- the irs scam. and it doesn't end. and we know a lot of these artists are -- scam artists are criminals, criminal networks. i know we arrested a criminal network from india, one from russia. the fbi works to subvert these kinds of frauds, but i feel that the ftc needs to work in perhaps a different way to make financial institutions more aware, to make sure seniors are more aware, to make sure places where seniors go, assisted living facilities, are more

aware. what can you do to help solve this problem? >> senator, maximizing our average, maximizing our ability to reach in the communities is just a top priority. and it is a challenge. it's especially more so a special challenge given the pandemic. i assure you our average efforts are constantly being rethought, reevaluated, and it is our goal to reach into the communities at the grassroot levels through local organizations, through public libraries, through legal services. we have a tremendous network of contacts, and we're constantly tapping them to push out information so that they have access to the resources we have and can use in their communities and also to receive information from them, to inform our law enforcement work. and our education outreach. >> so is your outreach including sort of this urgency that if they are scammed that they're going to report these scams?

because obviously if we don't give the fbi the information and law enforcement the information to go after them, they will have less data information to be successful. >> a core piece of information that is indispensable is to report what they're hearing. go to reportfraud.ftc.gov. it's important we receive that information so we know what's going on and we can be proactive. >> are you asking the institutions to do the reporting? because i can promise you the senior that's been scammed is not going to want to go to a website and report the scam. so they're not willing to go to the police in the first place, they're not going to go to a website. are you asking the assisted facilities and financial institutions to do the reporting? >> we do receive data from certain contributors in the private sector such as money gram, western union, better

business bureaus. i'm not aware of any financial institutions report directly to us. that is something we will certainly give thought to. i appreciate it. >> and ms. kliner, thank you so much for sharing your story. i know it's a horrible, horrible thing but you are very courageous. and you can prevent what happened to you from happening to other people. can you tell us what you wish was available for you or how would you have been able to be warned more effectively, what would have worked for you, and what type of interventions or resources would be helpful for you and your friends? >> i think we need to get more of this information out to the people. i had no idea where to go. i tried reporting my problem to the police but couldn't get them to listen to me. so that was very discouraging, and i was giving up at that point. i did call the aarp fraud line and got a very nice man, and

that is important, too, to have someone who is compassionate and not speaking down to you, not talking to you like you're senile and can't make good decisions because that isn't true. but you already feel that way anyway by yourself. you don't need someone else reinforcing that. >> and, to be honest, ms. kliner, these are highly sophisticated criminals. this criminal enterprise of senior fraud is worth hundreds of billions of dollars every year. it is not a small thing. and you guys are their primary targets because seniors together have over a trillion dollars of assets. so you are a ripe, very rich target for these criminal networks. so i guess what you're saying is you'd like law enforcement to be better informed so they could have put you in touch with the right people, police departments. so that might be a way to reach

out to law enforcement so that the ftc can actually brief every police department in america, you know, over the next several years would be great because, you know, if she has an instinct to report this to the police and the police make fun of her or don't take her seriously or say you're stupid, not only does she not get justice or doesn't get to effectively report, but it will make her feel that it's her fault. and that's exactly the opposite of the nature of these crimes. they're highly sophisticated adversaries who are doing everything they can to steal resources. is that something the ftc can do, ms. griesman? >> we do work closely with local police offices and have -- >> have you put together a training for them even just a deck of slides for police

departments to use to train all police officers? >> i don't know that we've specifically done a training for police officers, but we do have a tool kit actually on stopping gift card scams. and the driving force of the messages that gift cards are for gifts, and that tool kit is targeted toward retailers and gives them information they can display in their stores. >> that's good. super helpful. well, maybe then on this committee we'll have recommendations because that's what our committees do. but just from this hearing alone i hope you will take some of the information you learned here and implement it. >> well, thank you very much, senator. thanks senator gillibrand. we'll turn to senator blumenthal. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you to you and senator scott for having this hearing. i'd like to talk about robo calls, which are a bane of all

of our existence, but most especially, i think, for seniors. i hear from them all the time. in 2019 i supported the passage of the telephone robo call abuse criminal enforcement and deterrence act known as the t.r.a.c.e. act, which directed the ftc to establish standards to protect consumers from unauthenticated numbers and to work with providers to verify the legitimacy of incoming calls. this law has worked in part, not a ultimate answer, but now nearly 95% of the high risk robo calls do not originate from the sixth largest carrier. unfortunately, smaller internet based providers who have until

2023 to work within the fcc's requirements now account for the majority of these robo calls. they continue to prey on our seniors. they do so especially in these times of pandemic when seniors and all of us are particularly vulnerable to these pitches. so let me ask you, ms. williamson, how effective are robo callers in reaching consumers? particularly older americans. >> thank you for your questions. scams aimed at older adults are primarily perpetrated over the telephone. so the protections that you mentioned are critical to helping older adults avoid these types of scams. and we certainly thank you for your efforts on that. and we also believe that their protections should be enhanced to further clarify that with the

tcpa that solicitation -- prohibition against solicitation does apply to scam calls. we need further protections against spoof calls and we absolute ly support the fcc's efforts on that end to date. and we also need to tamp down on other loopholes such as the fake charity scams and make sure that when consumers, when older adults are being requested to put their hard-earned money to help others, that those charities are actually legitimate. >> taking that point, i think it's an important point about charity scams. how much have you seen a rise in those charity scams during the pandemic? is there an increase? what would you say about charity scams? >> so certainly we don't have data on the charity scams. we just have information that

we've heard from consumers and advocates. and what we have heard is that there is indeed an uptick in these types of fake charity scams, that older adults at home, isolated, wanting to help in some way, are being victimized by these types of scams. so we do -- are looking to put more preces in place to help avoid those types of scams. >> do you find that seniors are particularly vulnerable to these scams as we have found when i was attorney general in connecticut during times of crisis in cases of natural disaster whether it's hurricanes, floods, we've seen a lot of both and other weather events. is there an increased vulnerability because of those natural disasters? >> absolutely. scammers read the headlines. they follow what's happening especially if they're outside

the united states. they follow -- track what is happening in terms of disasters, in terms of other issues coming up in the news. and they taylor their scams to and they tailor their scams to fit those details. so if there is a natural disaster, if there is a fire, flood in an area, they are targeting consumers in those areas. they're targeting older adults. they are targeting people who they know to be sympathetic, who they know to be charitable, to get them to turn over their hard-earned money to them. >> what i have advised seniors is that they should contribute and be generous but make sure they know that the organization that they're supporting is, in fact, the one that they really want to support.

in other words, the red cross, these organizations are established, they do good work. would you agree? >> absolutely would agree that there are ways to research the charity and make sure it is legitimate, make sure it will help the people you intend -- that your money will help the people you intend your money to be directed towards. there are so many ways to absolutely find out about the background of an organization. so we always advise for consumers to be wary, that if they're being solicited over the phone to research the organization through other means and to really give their money to reputable charities. >> thank you very much, ms. williamson. thanks, mr. chairman. >> thanks very much, senator blumenthal. the vote started, almost ten minutes into the vote so we got to hustle. we'll hear from senator rosen

who rejoined us, senator kelly, and then we'll close. >> thank you chairman casey, of course ranking member scott. this is a really important hearing. scams against seniors are nothing new and only increasing in scope and severity. i appreciate you holding this important hearing and for the all witnesses here today the important work you do. of course nevada is no different than some of the other states, or most other states, and we have a lot of challenges and health scams particularly now of course with the pandemic. so one of the challenges throughout the pandemic has just been the unchecked spread of misinformation, disinformation of course resulting in an increase in scams especially those targeted at seniors. in fact, in 2020 nevadans over the age of 60 lost over $36.5 million to scams. that's a lot of money.

the most common covid-19 scams in nevada related to those involving the creation and distribution of fake vaccine cards and contact tracing scams which scammers pose as health department officials. they're asking for sensitive personal information such as your medicare or social security number. fortunately, our attorney general, his office has compiled a list of covid-19 related scams and tips on how to avoid falling victim so people have these resources, where to check if they're able. and as elected officials i believe we have to do as much as we can to get the word out about these scams. ms. griesman, for the record, i want to really clear the air for nevada seniors and get this out everywhere i can. would a legitimate health department official ever ask for a senior's personal information like their medicare or social

security number when they're contact tracing for covid-19? >> no, no. no legitimate entity would make a solicited request for that kind of personal information. >> thank you. i'm going to reiterate that. no legitimate entity would make a request for that personal information. thank you. and of course i know you've been speaking about this, but for those who do fall victim and they do give their sensitive personal information when they fall victim to now a covid related scam, can you talk about, ms. williamson, some of the resources available to a senior or someone who's helping them, maybe another family member or caregiver to help recover that information? reverse potential damage. >> sure. so there are many resources available to older adults who have fallen victim to scams and frauds. i think the first line of defense is for older adults or his or her advocates to really audit their financial accounts, call their banks, call their

credit card company, make sure they reach out to law enforcement organizations, and of course the ftc has a great website that would help victims as well. so i would refer folks to that as well. what's also important is to reach out to the irs or the social security administration if there has been a disclosure of personally identifiable financial information. just make sure those organizations as well know you've been victimized by this scam. it's also important really to reach out to a legal service organization or to another lawyer to make sure you protect your -- whatever money or aspects you have remaining. because if the fraudsters really have your financial information they could be doing damage to not only your credit report but also trying to seek other assets you may have. >> thank you.

we've been really proud because of our u.s. attorney in nevada appointed a covid-19 fraud coordinator to lead investigations to help with just the kinds of things you're talking about. and our attorney general did announce the creation of a covid-19 task force to help protect nevadans, all nevadans, not just seniors who may fall victim. it's a response of 15 agencies, fbi, secret service, sba, our small business office, the inspector general, the post office, the police departments. we're really trying to pull together to protect people. and because we did this, nevada ranked first amongst all states that have reported number of total fraud reports in 2020 with a whopping number of over 35,000 frauds reported -- fraud reports. and so now 18 months into this

pandemic what can you -- what lessons can we learn from these types of task force we can report out to other states to help protect people? >> just for the information because we got to vote -- >> take it off the record, thank you. >> if we can do that in writing it would be better. thank you, senator rosen, for coming back to the hearing and being with us. senator kelly. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i wanted to follow up on senator blumenthal's question about robo calls. arizona ranked first in complaints to the ftc about the do not call registry or do not call list. arizonans are getting these calls all hours of the day. some folks are getting hundreds of calls in a week. nobody can blame arizonians for being frustrated about this. i think we all are.

there has been a fair amount of activity in the courts this year related to the tcpa, the telephone consumer protection act. so can you give us an update where things stand, penalties, maybe an example of a specific case and what congress can or should do in order to better protect our constituents? >> senator kelly, obviously robo calls and unwanted calls whether live or precorded are a significant consumer protection issue. each month the ftc is receiving some 450,000 complaints from consumers about unwanted calls. typically 68% of them relate to robo calls. ftc has a vibrant law enforcement program combating unwanted telemarketing calls. we recently settled earlier this week involving millions and millions of unwanted calls and brought some 150 law enforcement actions and coordinated with our

state partners, including arizona. so both in terms of law enforcement and consumer ad outreach, it's a significant part of the work that we do. >> do you know what is the rate of robo calls? is the number consumers are receiving, has it been lately trending up or down? >> what's reported to us, it's held pretty stable at about 450,000 a month. what we're seeing are the call blocking technologies are working. recently stir shaken has been deployed among the larger carriers as senator blumenthal mentioned. it took effect just in june of this year. and obviously a lot of issues remain with those smaller voip service providers senator blumenthal also talked about. we've sued a number of them. our state partners have sued a number of them. our doj has sued them. so there's significant law

enforcement work to clamp down on these unwanted calls. we're not there. i assure you we're hard on the issue. >> please let us know if there's anything you need from congress here to make your job ease, and thank you and i yield back the remainder of my time. >> thank you, senator kelly. in light of the fact the vote is now into overtime, i think we have to close right now. but i'll be submitting a statement for the record as i'm as i understand ranking member scott will as well. let me just say this for the record, two things. number one, we want to thank our witnesses for the testimony they've brought to us today on these terrible scams and ways we can prevent them. and, for the record, if any senator has additional questions for witnesses or statements to be added, the hearing record will be open for seven days until thursday, september 30. thank you all for being here. we are adjourned.

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