tv The Presidency Michael Giorgione Inside Camp David CSPAN July 7, 2022 1:18pm-2:01pm EDT
of the presidential retreat. >> hello welcome to another episode of history >> welcome to another episode of white house revived. i'm a senior vice president at the white house historical association and the science center for white house history. he served in every riding of assignments around the world in a military career. including a
commander of camp david he has worked in private industries, the chief executive officer of the technology company. headquarters of pittsburgh. >> in october 2017 he published his first book inside camp david, the private world of the presidential retreat. he is often speaking about the book and has been covered by wall street journal, the today show, the smithsonian, and pr, c-span, and many other print, radio, and television outlets. after our conversation, mike
will be taking questions from our live audience. please put your questions for mike and the chat and we will get to as many as possible, at the end of our program. welcome to white house history live, mike. >> thank you thank you, colleen, as most veterans will say it was a great honor to serve our navy and nation and i appreciate. >> why don't we start from the beginning? near shore with camp david, tell us about how you are selected as commander of camp david, what that process was like. >> we know it as camp david but it is actually a navy command, it is named after a town nearby. it is operated and maintained since it was started in 1942 by president roosevelt. because it is principally self maintained, the crew are navy, a civil engineer or core officer is always the commanding officer.
in 1998 i was put on a short list of possible officers to be considered, i went to the white house and got the interview, the then executive director of the white house military office for president clinton. went to a visit to the camp, was interviewed by the staff and about a week later i got the call. >> amazing, tell us about your own personal history with camp david. >> i knew what it was, i had visited once as an officer in d.c. in the early 90s. interestingly i left the visit that day talking to things about assignments. i thought while that is a very difficult place to work, i would love to work there sunday. put it away for the next few tours in 1998 and i was shortlisted for the interview, selected and recorded in 1999. near the end of president clinton's second term. >> how long are you there?
>> just over two years, the last year and a half of president clinton and the first eight months of president bush. i was fortunate with timing to support the families, administrations, the events that occurred there. gain those insights into ways of leading the nation. >> let's talk a little bit about the history of camp david, the history begins with franklin roosevelt, tell us why did fdr select that site? what did he like to do when he visited, not called camp david at that point in time but i will let you talk about that. >> very good, very good, let's go back to 1942. roosevelt liked going out, he was won one of the three presidential yachts. the florida museum in oakland, california. he loved going out on the potomac to secure his hobbies, his interests, talking to world leaders and staff. it was 41, 42, concerned about
the sightings in the united states. so, staff is concerned they could not go on the yacht anymore. so, he said, finally a place where i could go to get away from the white house. this was before the helicopter squadron, he said you have to find place drivable and nearby. interestingly, because of the new deal bringing us out of depression and part of the work projects, later progress administration and part of the civilian conservation core. that put money back into the country and there was placed in thurman, maryland called the recreational demonstration area. also known as camp under three. roosevelt was given three camps nearby to visit, he went to all three and when he came to camp number three he looked at it and said, this is it. here is the first, name this is my shangri-la. the roosevelt named it shangri-la law, we take off on
the novel lost horizon. implying a utopian mysterious place in the mountains. it had that whimsical manger about naming things. that was its names. as we know president eisenhower renamed after his grandson, camp david. that is how we know it today. >> can you describe camp david for a lot of our viewers and listeners? ? who i am sure i have never visited camp david in person and probably will not, visit camp david. can you paint a picture to them of what the camp is like? >> i will try, imagine a hilltop park, it is a national park maintained by the national park association. great partners of ours. 1800 feet elevation, in the spring and summer months it is a very leafy, rush canopy with a perfectly manicured yard. narrow asphalt road into camp. and, these cabins that you see,
all of the cabins was a shortened shade of green paint. all of the roads were rustic, leafy, very fresh. but, at night i find it particularly surreal at night because it is definitely quiet. no light except pathway, no noise except for a squirrel in the tree. no nights, no noises from below, just an eerily quiet place. that adds to it. this is the cabin my family and i lived in, all of these security officers and the family live physically inside the camp. this is called-seater just around the corner from the aspen presidents watch. >> how many cabins are in camp david? how big is the site? >> there are about 12, for gas cabins all named after trees.
roosevelt called the presidential the bear stan, eisenhower when he renamed camp david named all of the tree cabins after trees. the tree of eisenhower's home state, colorado, all named after trees. and, about 20 total that included the fire department, the clinic, eucalyptus, the admin office for the sport facilities, the barracks are single sailors et cetera. >> let's talk about the staff, you were the commander but what is the size of the military staff at camp david? what types of jobs do they perform? >> over 200 sailors and marines, five civil civilians or profiteers, one chaplain. one supply corps and to marine officers, the marine security office say that comes out of the barracks.
all told, you put all of the sailors and marines together it is just over 200 staff. we also have a white house communications, that is in charge of communications. that is coming out of the main command in downtown d.c.. >> can you tell us a little bit about how camp david has changed over the years? it was very rustic when fdr first came to camp david. there has been some notable additions to the complex. you mentioned there is a chaplain, there is a chapel at camp david, talk a little bit about the buildings and the activities, how that complex has changed over time. >> go back to fdr again, apparently why the navy is there is because he took the sailors off of the uss potomac who did not have a job. he took them with him to camp david and also brought them along for security. fdr only one third of the non winter months. he preferred to go to key west
but he would be around the place, had the trays pushback from the cabins. and then, during eisenhower's time it was modernized with heating throughout the cabins. very rustic, maintained that. but, the only airs for use of the family and administration guests, cabins have been added. president nixon during his time put a lot of expansion into the camp to expand aspen, putting in the hourglass shape on the cover, adding the main entertainment cabinet you sometimes see a news coverage. and, a number of other features as well. it has been maintained since then, moderna and at times, it is a challenge because the president visits a lot to modernize and expand has been happening for years. very sequential and smart to the current, but, maintain the rustic nature on the outside. the amenities on the inside. far more grass, four star
resort. it is not meant to be. it is a rustic, comfortable place to get away, sink, to walk in privacy, silence, recreate on your own or meet with other people. probably the most unique thing is the evergreen chapel that was donated through private money, gifted to the president of the united states for camp david in 1991 during the president george h. w. bush. how did president get to camp david, you talk about fdr within driving distance but presidents not drive, that correct? >> not a deal, we bring them in by the squadron, eisenhower was the first to come in by that. they started in, weather permitting, they would fly in on hms one or the white top, as we call it. if inclement weather than they will come up by motorcade from wherever their last departure
point is. camp david's presidential retreat, yet we know the presidents often find themselves working at camp david. tell us a little bit about how it functions as a white in the maryland mountains. >> i think most people recognize no matter who's the president, you are always -- and there can be a lot of critiques about what you do when you're off-duty or how you do your job but the fact is you are always the president. you need time off we all need time off. in addition to a second home that some presidents have, camp david provides that peace will get away for family, friends and if needed, for staff and for world leaders. so i find as big right balance of history. that presidents go there to get away, like the reagan's -- most of the time or a couples get away. to recreate but also to think
about things and sometimes bring gifts with them. every presidents a little different. to me as an outsider, i think the best balance is using it as a personal respite for your family and friends in the new fight is a great place to bring world leaders to talk privately. there is no press, unless you invite the press in. there is no press, there are no lights. you don't have any protesters. there's no traffic, no planes flying overhead. serene we, as they said, quiet and peaceful. that's what you want. >> how do people get around camp david? is their cars or is or golf carts or bikes, how do people get around? >> yes, it's golf cart so everyone's assigned a golf cart. we have golf cart one. we have to have our nomenclature as well so golf cart one, golf carts is assigned to all the guests. bicycles are available and pedestrian. we do have cross country trails through the woods. if you want to do that. and it snowmobiling is we saw president ford and his family doing that in his presidency.
principally golf course to get around or walk. >> and just a reminder to everyone, we are going to be taking questions at the end of our conversation so if you do have questions from mike about camp david, it's history, what it's like, please put them in the chant it will get to as many as possible. so let's talk a little bit about the history of camp david and the historic events that have taken place in camp david. you talk about some of these episodes for them and why presidents might choose camp david for the setting of these historic occurrences. >> i'll mention four events and then a focus on the 51 in particular. so we see photos of fdr inviting winston churchill to the mountains and going off fishing a nearby stream. and smoking cigars and probably having bourbon or two. but the point moments that brought him here are them talking about how the u.s. military -- that's roosevelt in the top left inside aspen, that stone fireplace is still there.
there is also wagon wheel chandelier, you can see but it's about the roosevelt table. that's still there. president truman, only went ten times in his tenure. presidents come there, says the first time fdr and churchill. president carter made a famous for most people, in 1978, with camp david peace accords. during my time, 2000 president clinton -- 2012, president obama hosted the g8 conference in camp david. the single time that any, the most world leaders have been at camp david at any one time. but the incident to go back to his 1964 april 1961. president kennedy inaugurated in january, succeeding president eisenhower.
being planned behind the scenes -- passed off to the administration. you can see this photo at the top right that became a pulitzer prize-winning photo called serious steps. what's interesting about this, i think, every human and political point is that president kennedy inherited the operation. it was launched, it did not go well. hence the name, bay of pigs fiasco. and he reaches across the political and personal aisle and invites president eisenhower to come to camp david. and help him understand how to get through this. how do i fix this mess? what do i do? and it's a very poignant significant moment, i think. you have the new upstart democrat inviting the old guard, five star retired general, former republican president there to talk about what to do. i think it's a very humble, maybe a possibly desperate measure but a very humble way to recognize leadership. and recognize what a president
typically passes on between administrations and talk about what to do best for the country. >> you mentioned this already mike, is some presidents when you talk about this in your book. some presidents and first families visit camp david more frequently than others. you can you talk a little bit about the differences in how presidents and first families use camp david and explain why you think that is? >> one i think it depends on children. what are the ages of the presidents children? i think that dictates, are they going to leave their leaks on the interviewer leagues and back in d.c., they have lost their friends there. i think that's a factor that parents always experience. to, some presidents have second homes and prefer to go there. some can do both. three, some like the quiet nature, president clinton rarely went to camp david his first term but he's a lot more his second term.
so over two terms, he saw the value. some just prefer to go somewhere else. preferred entertain elsewhere. we've seen a mix over 80 some years over how they use it. >> can you share with us one or two of your most favorite memories from your time at camp david? >> there are certainly the historic moments that most people would recognize -- like the middle east peace summit working with the state department. welcoming president clinton and meeting -- having a photo shaking his hand there. and launching from the sidelines of president clinton spends almost two weeks trying to forge the middle east peace treaty. peace agreement. watching president bush early in his presidency welcome the players to camp david, just two couples getting to know each other much like you would do with your neighbors. if one of you listen to the neighborhood. a very pointed thing to watch on the sidelines because even we get to serve there and see things, you have to remember,
you are in the work. and you get to know some personal things about the families. but you're not of their world. and you have to understand to maintain that the quran as you go. i'll tell two stories that are more personal in nature because i think it helps relate to families and parents. the first one is the final clinton weekend. four days, nonstop, hundreds of guests coming through. dinners, couple of -- musicians performing in the chapel. just a wonderful event. we got the opportunity to say goodbye to the clinton family. and as i'm walking into the helicopter 10:00. snow on the ground. saluting them, thanking them for leading our country and walking them down to -- my last time to see them. chelsea clinton, 20 year old student, stanford, turns to me and hands me two stuffed animals. and she says, commander, i've had these more veteran for eight years. please give them to your
daughter, breonna. thank your wife, michelle, for everything you've done. and just a touching, unexpected moment of course. great keepsakes now for the two girls. that's the first one. and here is the scene, the final time i see the clintons in 2001. the second one's a humorous story, it's in the book, it's about the goldfish. it's that just a position of the commander of the camp and the fact that you're responsible for security yet you are the family that lives and said the gate. you have to go through the gate every time you have to run errands. and it was during the middle east peace summit first week. michelle had taken the girls down to thurmond, city fair. common thing to do here at camp david in the summer. and she's coming back through the gate with the two girls in the backseat. the each had one a goldfish, goldfish and placid beverage holding. and we have a strict policy that time, no animals at camp david. no pets. and the marine corps g.a.r.,
who knows us and we know all the marines they know us. everyone's doing their job. and he says ma'am, you can bring cuts into the camp. and she looks at -- incredulous look and the girls are hearing this and the tears starts to come down their eyes. and she's looking at them and he's looking at her. she's looking back at him, he's doing his job. mom's doing her job. michelle leans into the window and says, they are for dinner. and kind of winks. he says, yes ma'am. it's a little funny moment like that and you realize, there are still people there. we have these moments in time. we all live with rules and regulations but sometimes you see the human side slit through. that's my favorite story because moms and dads, kids will get it. >> so the final chapter in your book is called the true meaning of camp david. can you tell us what is the true meaning and is it
different for every president first family who spends time there? >> definitely different, as i described. how different families -- the bushes had kind of on board george w. -- he loved going to camp david like his dad. and they spent every christmas there. for some, it's a time for family to come together for a special holiday. during my time, the clintons love camp david for thanksgiving. so a thanksgiving's, the clintons of the camp david. again, every president son differently. president reagan, nancy reagan loved going there almost by themselves. but he did all of his radio addresses on saturdays from the cabin elsewhere. they all use it differently. the meaning comes from i think -- and it has a steam of camp david kind of place. the spirit of camp david, coined by one of the soviet premiers and the time. and it was about a place where you can come together with trust, with a nature, no press
unless he wants their. and just the ability to sit down as people, break bread, share a story, get to know each other. and to me, that's a true meeting of camp david. a place for our presidents to get away and relax. a place to entertain family and guests and world leaders. probably one of the most unique places in the world to do that. all within regional distance of -- >> mike, we have some really great questions from our live audience. nancy from facebook asks, i know that president reagan and nancy reagan rode horses while they were at camp david. is there a stable there and what other activities are available besides swimming? >> the only time we've had a stable their corral was during the kennedy years for macaroni, -- people know the pony, macaroni was kept their. for the children, the kennedys. otherwise, horseback. we had one incident where president clinton and chelsea
want to go horseback riding the. national park service from d.c. brought horses up and we used -- secret service on horseback to to go through the nearby was. horseback riding is possible but there is no crowds. there is ski shooting trap shooting,, mini golf course, the driving range cross country skiing. presidents want to go golfing, they go to a nearby golf course. they want to fish, there are nearby fishing on private farm lands. there is a bowling alley, there's a movie theater there's a library there is a barn. recreation shot, et cetera. >> david asks have hikers ever from the -- mountains acts accidentally approach the perimeter of camp david? >> it happens and there are some warning signs. subtly put around the camp quite a distance from it. you could drive by the roads to
camp, most people know not to go down there. we have protocols if you do happen to approach the fence or try to get closer, there are things we check you out and help you get back to your path. it's a no-fly zone so typically, no aircraft flying over the camp. i'm sure it happens it continues to happen people stumble upon. it >> didn't fdr, did he make a wrong turn when he was driving wants to try to get to shangri-la law and did he come across a neighbor that was not too happy to see him? >> yes, it's happened. when we didn't drive around as much as we do today and you are not always funded by agents. there is been those humorous events and he knocked on the door and the lady yelled at him, who are you? again, those little poignant moments about everyday life between humans and how we engage each other. >> dennis asks what is the longest a president has stayed there, wasn't carter there for a week or more during the middle east peace talks? >> yes, there was a time card,
over a week. watch almost two weeks for the peace talks as clinton was there, although clinton went to the g8 summit. but about president carter also went there during the 1979. and he came back and gave that speech which -- they talk about the condition of the country. and what was going on and we have the hostages taken in iran. all this was going on in he secluded himself for almost two weeks working there during that difficult time in his presidency. typically, presidents go for a weekend. up friday, back sunday night. jeff ask a good question, how did eisenhower get naming rights to name camp david camp david? was there an executive order, was it legislation? did he just have someone go out with lumber and paint and redo the signs? >> i like the second explanation best but i don't know.
i imagine there must of been something sign to change the name shangri-la moniker to camp david. we'll have to check the archives together. karen asks when a president chooses not to visit camp david very often, how does that change staffing inaugurations? >> staffing operations don't change because you're always ready, always ready to receive and some presidents have actually let camp david be used by guests or president carter visit with his whole family during president clinton's term. so where the carters again, former president visiting some presidents have allowed a staff team but if no one's there, you are just maintaining the place to take care of it. i think it's a morale issue. if no one visits -- and that's a lot of time now to do job. get a little rusty possibly. some weekend, some presidents are always on.
>> so that's the question that gaby asks. what happens at camp david with the president's away? what do you do as the staff? >> we have more time to do training. physical fitness programs contests, if time allows it. more time to send our sailors and marines to schools if necessary. you need to always be ready so you have staff. but you're really sitting, waiting, taking care of the police, still planting flowers, moving the grass. training, firefighting training is constant. certainly because you're always ready, you're ready to execute in the president does visit. and that's what we look forward to those visits. >> jeff asks has hollywood or the news media, for a documentary for example, ever filmed on site at camp david? >> harry reason or with abc news interview to president
ford inside the camp. i believe that's the only time it really was an interview done in that regard at what is camp david. certainly during world events, like the middle east peace summit in 2000, press was there. secluded area to film, principles coming in and then they were escorted out on the bus. there had been a hollywood guess various presidents. musical guest, sports guests. but no real filming, documentaries done on camp david other than from a distance, from the archives. and any presidential films from the libraries. >> peter asks, what is the reason for the no pets rule at camp david? >> it was self grown and today, there are people that live there, the ceos are allowed to have a pet. it depends on what's happening in history. read in the book about the incident with nixon's french poodle and the camp commander's dog and it's a humorous time and probably why that is dictated some change the times.
but today, we're a little more reasonable i would say about pet rule. >> kathy asks, you mentioned the library. what kind of books are in the library and does it depend upon the administration that the books change depending upon the president or first family? >> we keep some archives in a open public library near the game room. so more of the history, that's where all the house christmas cards, holiday cards, we frame all those. put those in the movie theater room or in the library. in the cabin holly which is for carter shows to meet with sadat and began because of the smaller nature. i like that room because that library is most of the provincial papers. so there's copies of the presidential papers are published in some other historical novels about the military services and presidential -- that's when i mean when i referred to the two libraries. one for public use, one of the history of camp david and the
second the presidential papers. >> missy asks do you have any stories about the johnson years in camp david? lbj? >> chuck how, of page 95, at a california. chuck and his family, wife and kids were there from kennedy to johnson ears. in the book, it talks about johnson being particularly person to be about absolutely scalding hot water in the shower. and how it shook and the crew work and likely to try to make it harder than possible. and how to deal with the air conditioning and all those little things that many of us might fight in our homes. so chuck talks about the transition from kennedy reacting to the assassination, change of administration. president johnson and his family into the camp. >> grant asks has president biden visited camp david, do you know? >> he's been there a time so
far. which is pretty good. he leaves most weekends if you get in the maple recently. going to delaware, he's been to camp david a times. as the president. he was there a number of times as vice president. >> tiffany asks, has camp david or been damaged by bad weather? >> there are microburst on the hill. those little adhesive window sometimes knock down trees. state park national park. but fortunately, nothing serious has hit the area were camp david is. 200 acres. >> marianne asks a good question, has there ever been a wedding at camp david? >> one wedding. norah bush, president george h. w. bush's daughter was married there in the chapel. evergreen sham poll. one wedding. >> and saul from facebook asks, what was the biggest surprise you ever had while working at camp david? >> when the day the sprinklers
one-off when president clinton was chipping golf balls. so the sprinklers go off, i did witnesses but secret service we're watching your bye. the move, disregard off again and he threw his clothes on the golf cart and went out deriving range. bag wasn't secure, all the clothes fell over the asphalt. it was just humorous, but you understand the frustration of someone dealing with that. i try to make light of it that night when he left camp david about finding the water hole. it was a poor attempt at humor and you learn the balance of wind to be serious and not too serious and went to not be too humorous. i learned to probably not be too humourist. but that was the funniest time, fortunately i had no serious incidents during my time. there were tough things going on in the world. i left the month before 9/11 occurred. there was a whole, we spend a lot of time describing with that commander went through at the time. light moments during the time. >> charlene asks how much has a
do you get to know when a president is coming? >> depends on the president. change of command day, 10 am, typically navy ceremony, 10 am. and my predecessor knew that president clinton was scheduled, wasn't gonna come at all. 10 am ceremony that morning before the ceremony we get worried, presidents coming that night. so a fascinating factor to realize you're about to inherit the camp. you know nothing, really about what goes on. you've had briefings but you are the new ceo, you're driving the cars, brand-new. i found out to be a very fortunate event for me. because it taught me just to sit back, let people do their jobs, all i have to do we get dressed up, walk down there, introduce myself, shake hands, salute. and that's all i did that first day. but i learned a lot about my crew and i couldn't -- set the humility about let people do their jobs. train them, have their back,
support them. and let them do their jobs. so that was no notice. the bush administration, very -- we always knew well ahead of time. it depends on the person. >> jane ask a good question. can the vice president and his or her family go there as well? >> if the president allows them. it's happened in history. not a lot but occasionally. as if it earlier, sometimes the president will let staff or others go away from leadership retreats. president obama did a lot for his staff members. leadership retreats and so the commander at the time and the chaplain will get the -- briefing the chapel. they do what they were there to do, go back on the sunday. so it's varied. >> caroline asks if you know this, do you know how the pandemic has affected camp david or or the new procedures in place? >> very observant of the mask rules early on. very observant of the
vaccinations. again, this is telling of the trump administration. beginning of the biden ministration. everyone's just very observant of following the rules. either by the white house, or by the navy's self protection conditions. very appropriate response. i don't think it's held back from, maybe it's held back from a lot of outside guests. and certainly no world leaders have been there in five years. but i think that'll open up with world leaders attending more. >> bill says i think i know the answer this question would alaskan anyways. is camp david ever opened to tourists, can the average american ever go to camp david? >> bill, you are spot on. it is not open. there is a fake lake housewives say that advertises weekend tours in the cabin sudden believe that, that's not true. the only way to get to camp is if a crew member can have
guests, non presidential vision weekend. either know someone who works there, if allowed, or know the president and be invited in and his or her convenience. >> jane asks what's the food like at camp david, a good question. >> yes. for ourselves, we run a galley operation for our sailors and marines. and that's available to guess if they want it. there is the lounge and bar as, you know, barr food available. but for visits, we work with the first family social secretary of the first lady to work the menu. we have well-trained culinary specialists who sometimes work with the presidents chef or the white house mess, navy mess. to prepare the meals. for world leaders, we sometimes work with the state department. especially for kosher meals. during the -- visit -- kosher meals were brought on from d.c. to provide meals for all guests. and so we accommodate the
guests but they today, we have a galley. serves the crew that works here. >> jackie, who's watching on youtube asks what is something that you think every american should know about camp david. >> so to get the jeopardy question. it was first coach angela. it's a navy command just like marine one and air force one an air force plane et cetera. it was first established in 1942 where president roosevelt. >> missy asks was the highest rank of someone from the marines or the navy at camp david? >> the camp commander is a commander, u.s. navy commander. sometimes that officer might be selected from captain as he is, he or she is the parting the campus. a commander job for commander. the senior marine is a captain. he's a ceo, marine security company. and for the white house communication agency detail
that's their. maybe a lieutenant colonel typically in the u.s. army. >> and our last question this evening. several of viewers have asked this. why did you decide to write the book on camp david. and what was one or two things that were just fascinating that you learned while you are researching to write the book? >> thank you. wonderful final question. on the day a change of command, there is a photo of my wife and two daughters. ages seven and four. and she hands me this journal. and the first page of the journal is a scroll of two girls, breonna and ryan saying do daddy, please write stories with the presidents -- someday arkansas will read about them. so it's humorous, i would never thought of it. and so after every visit, weekend or event i would sit down and i just kind of write down what happened. so i did that through the clinton administration, at the end of it, i did for the inauguration of bush.
and i put that away and my desk and never opened it for 17 years. never thought i could write a book. there was a reunion weekend during one of the previous encounters at camp david. a lot of the former commanding officers -- spouses were there and were all meeting each other. some meeting for the first time, somehow known to the four years. and i had heard many of them or talking about trying to capture some of the history. i learned later that many of them had run their own stories. so i first realized that i was, i could write the book as one of the had a security interview done. so it was possible. i knew i was going to write anything that was unattractive to the president. and i knew i could we've been 15 stories of other commanding officers and get the history from kennedy forward. i thought now we can bring the whole history of the camp, a lot of camp together. other ceos could tell their stories eoc their stories and
their names in the book. you'll see their photos. and use that way to really become a historical narrative for some of the personal insights and so, i think it was well received that way. some people want to dirt, some people wanted stories. that wasn't the purpose. it was just show respect and to tell the stories a little bit about the inside workings and how the military supports the presidency around the world, 24/7. >> thank you so much, mike, for joining us on white house history live. this has been a really comprehensive conversation about camp david. and i thank you to all of our viewers for watching this evening.