tv Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN August 5, 2011 6:00am-7:00am EDT
the appetite for ethnic cleansing and war is becoming a clear case -- in the north. what should we do? i think it is very important that the united nations to play the role in the region. it is very important to take the lead. it is an african problem but it has become -- how much has been played in order to make a commitment. sudan is -- collectively work together. southern sudan as a part of your priorities. it is only a hope that we can show to the sudanese people and
those who have been struggling for their own rights that you are standing with them. i think it is very important your role in the united nations. you have a united nations mission in that region to provide protection to the people. i think that is a a very important role. whether the united nations can provide protection in that area will be seen. not only protection but it is critical have to -- how to help the people. we should not expect the sudan government to offer protection to the people of nuba mountain.
we look to indigenous organizations that can assist nuba mountain. as an organization trying for peace and development, i think we believe we can offer a lot in terms of helping the people and making the aid affected using the guide -- indigenous organizations. i would like to echo our appreciation with what the bishops said about the role of the ngo's. one program that is too focused
the attention. it provided information that we are very proud of. it is not only about the government. it is about the people. they can do a lot of the focus is on sudan. i want to conclude with what i believe we end kush can do also in the area. our immediate efforts are based on the goals establishing peace. we have also a vision of the holistic development efforts. we encourage the united states to seek ways to build and support a strong network of non-
governmental organizations working in the region. we will provide a foundation for it your efforts in the south and the north to build an infrastructure to achieve a lasting police in a society -- a lasting peace in a society. thank you for giving me this opportunity. >> thank you very much for your very comprehensive testimony and your work. let me note that we had invited the u.s. department of state john carson and any one of his deputies and admittedly it was short notice. this is an emergency hearing and i want the state department and the u.s. aid to know this subcommittee will reconvene at any time in august, hopefully very soon, to hear specifically what is being done and
contemplated in response to this catastrophic explosive situation that you have brought to the subcommittee. we will reconvene at any time to hear that and hopefully be part of a solution. you made a very impassioned plea, bishop, you said the grave situation calls for the united states and the international community to translate moral outrage into affected action. you talked about how your cathedral has been ransacked and your chaplin has been beaten. you make it clear that teh nuba people fear they will be forgotten and the world will stand by wide -- while mass killings continue without redress that you talk about the house to house killings that are occurring as we meet here in committee. you also point out that the united nations deploy its own
satellites to ensure that the reported mass graves are not tampered with. this subcommittee has long and aggressively everywhere in the world on every continent where this has occurred emphasized not only stopping the atrocities and genocide in the first place of holding those who commit those atrocities to account whether it be charles taylor who is likely to be sentenced by early fall. recently, the bosnian serb was finally found her there is no statute of limitations on crimes against humanity and genocide. he was hunted down and i was there a couple of times once for a mass burial of people who were slaughtered during an infamous couple of days in july. the same thing happened in rwanda.
it is important that we be very robust and collecting that evidence while we try to stop it and died -- bringing to the committee how important that is. he made a number of serious recommendations and i would appreciate any elaboration on that. you say the united states cannot begin to consider normalizing ties with sudan and should not be listing them or approved this outlaw nation while these terrible crimes against humanity are occurring. you also say the u.s. and international committee must act. you also _ because of the bombing campaign, people have not been able to plant or tend to their crops. by october when the crop should have been ready to harvest,
there will not be enough food to feed tens of thousands of displaced persons and you call that a slow motion genocide by design. you also make a very impassioned appeal that effective peacekeeping forces with a real mandate to keep the peace and not stand by while mass murder occurs house to house around the clock. in your view or any of the panelists view, as the united states done enough for the international community done enough. the peacekeepers are redeployed. what should be done? should we do new deployment? what would be your recommendations? you make the point that there needs to be bold action by the united nations security council. what needs to be done right now? >> first of all, we need to stop
the bombing for the civilians. there are many ways. number two, access to a humanitarian aid is very crucial. have food and people are running into caves. also, i know the u.s. is trying but we need more effort. the u.s. government is part of who brought the peace in sudan. nuba mountain is part of the project but they're not finished. we need the government to go ahead and continue to achieve peace and freedom for the people forn uba.
at the same time, there is no news coming from the ground, no media, but it seems the u.s. can go and see for themselves. it is very difficult there. the government of sudan is preventing anybody to go and to report. they don't want reporters. is the government of sudan greater than the united nations, african union, u.s. government ? how many years will people dealing with this government but they are still doing the same t? the leaders are wanted in international criminal court
that they are still there. they are wanted but they are still living. why are they allowing this regime to continue doing their some actions. ? my question is what the u.s. will do if they can intervene and act. we have been telling this many times. now i am happy that this organization, and they are signing a petition of half a million. i hope the government can hear these voices for the people who are trying to help us around the world. >> i would just echo with the reverend said. this regime in khartoum has a
long history of dishonor and agreements. -- does honoring agreements. -- is honoring the agreement. -- dishonoring of agreements. why does our ambassador when he is interviewed and asked about were krems -- about war crimes -- he said these are the allegations that no one is on the ground to see it. i met with one of his representatives. this representatives -- this week. i was told the position of our government was one of moral equivalency between the two sides. this is not really honest with
ourselves. there is plenty of evidence. there are journalists. i was there with a team from aljazeera english that produced a fantastic documentary that has been run over and over again and you can see it on youtube. it exposes what is happening there. there is a team from " the new york times," "time magazine." there are people with cameras and the internet and you can get more information now on this genocide that you could in the previous war. the fact that the icc has recognized the national congress party as being responsible for genocide as this of it recognizes ahmed haroun, why doesn't our government recognize them in that way? there're all kinds of stories coming out of the u.n. forces who are from egypt standing by
and watching the slaughter take place. they are supposed to be peacekeeping forces. they are allowing the intelligence services of the south to come in and take people out of their compound. six nuba women sought shelter and they were raped by the egyptian forces. even some of the forces are complex set with khartoum. there are internal documents that the u.n. will be forced to release about the atrocities. this should be investigated. these people should be prosecuted. they should be brought to justice. our government should get off the fence and distinguish between the victims and perpetrators of genocide.
>> of what other members to be able to ask questions. it was disturbing that bashir visited beijing and rather than insuring that he was apprehended and sent to the hague where he should be held to account, nothing of the sort happened. he was treated and feted as a great man. ertagun in turkey refused to listen to the requests. there should have been an arrest made and this man prosecuted for genocide. >> mr. chairman, kenya inaugurated is the constitution and the u.s. car and had a lot to do with bringing the constitution. mr. bowsher was the main story. -- mr. bashir was the main
story and no one seems to be concerned about his arrest warrant. >> i couldn't agree more that the international criminal court is a great institution. however, we know it is very difficult to have a court would haven't -- without having an enforcement mechanism and that is the weak part of the international criminal courts. at one time, it was thought that interpol could perhaps serve as an enforcement arm. how do you apprehend the
criminal? without police, we would have no use for courts. i believe we should continue to support the international criminal court and tried to work on ways to strengthen it. these criminals are being indicted and they know this indictment stems over their heads. they know where they can go but they know that 90% of the blazes that cannot go. -- of the places they cannot go. dr. deng, with the arrangement that was supposed to be made on the areas in dispute, unfortunately, when independence came from britain, the map
creates a situation because that map is still being used as the borders. as we saw in kashmir -- in the kashmir region between india and pakistan, the british left an unincorporated area to be determined in the future. as we know in kashmir, there is still fighting going on between pakistan and india over that area. i certainly have a real concern. although there are certain areas that were support of a sblm the map was drawn into the north even though the want to be part
of the south. what type of an agreement was supposed to be enforced with regards to blue nile as a means to work on having a government. they're supposed to be an integration of the military with this splm with the forces in that area. could you explain what the special group that was supposed to handle this was supposed to do?
>> thank you for the question. the issue of the border is a clear condition. when i was with the negotiation, for the parties to agree although we have defined the border in 1956, the committee was set up. there is a commitment by the parties to ensure that the committee did not move very well. we said we should stick to the applicable dialogue of finding a peaceful settlement on the disputed border between the north and south. even if we fail to agree on those areas, we should resort to arbitration. it should not trigger any war.
for nuba mountain and blue nile, an agreement was signed. the content of that agreement said we should have a cease- fire. second, we should go for the dialogue in discussing what should be the purpose of splm. they were pushing for the argument that there is no way you can disarm these people because these are the people who fought a political war and they accepted the agreement to ensure that proper consultation is conducted. you cannot just disarm them. the parties agree they should sit and continued to dialogue which be the status of splm.
secondly, they discussed the political landscape. by having the splm as part of the political party, they would do their political activities. the ncp said that after everything is resolved , splm would be an illegal party. the whole debate about what is going to happen after the secession of the south. they need to discuss how they will leave another space with opportunities for middle said
gen. sudan. it was agreed to by the president. when he went back, bashir and others disagreed. it was witnessed by the african union. even for the role of united's nation's, these of the people who should decide. this is an opportunity for the parties to engage and dialogue. >> let me ask a follow-up question. your organization, kush, how you see your organization being able to be of assistance? do you think that you're newly formed group would be able to
assist in attempting to come up with resolutions in these three disputed areas? >> we want to forge a relationship with the people of the united states and africa. we took southern sudan and abier which gives us a chance to build confidence between us north and south. it has a lot of challenges of oil and conflict and challenges of displacement. kush is trying to see how we can advocate for a finer solutions for abier.
we say the united nations role there is not only as a peacekeeper but to help people relocate. we are seeing an opportunity by having an organization on the ground. sometimes these international organizations proven most cases that they cannot deliver. it is critical whether we can look for a partner that will have a knowledge and assessed. this is one thing we are discussing. we also want to build peace at the grass-roots level. we look at the local dynamics of whether we can afford this.
this echoes very well to the nuba mountain and the blue nile. if the magnitude of the investigation is really great, it is upon the united nations to see a possibility of having a protection of the people. we need to see whether we could use the united states -- the united nations forces to be extended to cover the nuba mountain and the blue nile. the also have a feeling that the united nations can also help in terms of conduct of assisting nuba mountain. >> thank you very much. i really appreciate your courage and what you have done.
i could not agree with you more. we were trying to get a no-fly zone for years, a decade ago, to prevent when darfur broke out but we could not get -- president boris agreed at one. -- president bush agreed to support the no-fly zone which would have stopped the bombing but continued in darfur. in the short time that i have left, what are some recommendations that would you like to see us do if you had the authority to do yourself? >> thank you very much. i am grateful for your leadership on this issue. i would point out that what the doctor said about how they
illegalized the party and the north and that relates to the integrity reveals that they never really had any intention of keeping any agreements regarding these contested areas. they have been staging attacks by militias into south sudan. it is a very strategic area. it is one of the republic of south sudan is a very concerned about how the u.s. government should be concerned as caretaker of the cpa and i don't that we have done enough to enforce the cpa. the attempt to disarm the spla and illegalize their party is way ahead of any mandated requirement by the cpa. that was a provocation. i was discouraged when i met with the state department was
told that their position was that the spla had provoked khartoum into attacking. we know that there were crimes and genocide taking place this is a position that was given at the state department. they believe both sides want war. that gave me a sick feeling. we know where the planes are that are bombing civilians. they are in alabet. it would not take much to solve that problem and would cost less than what we have done a place like libya. whether or not we are prepared to do that, at a minimum, we should be siding with the victims. we should be demanding that the u.n. declared a humanitarian emergency so that humanitarian
access is allowed for it when i made my trip about six years ago, i was not repaired -- prepared but it is dangerous. there's a serious humanitarian crisis that is approaching. they're a 70-90,000 people that will probably die of the next month or two because the roads are shut down to the north and the flights are not coming in to the nuba mountains right now. the u.s. government needs to have a loud voice and build a large bonfire with the help of advocates and churches complaining about what is happening and putting pressure on the un to take action, to start changing the way they communicate on this.
at a minimum, we need to publicly differentiate between the victims and perpetrators of genocide. there are many solutions that can be utilized. we don't have a problem with anyone helping. this is a threat to the integrity of our nation that i could not agree more the government of sudan always tends to exacerbate a situation as they did in darfur. >> there was a skirmish between some local people and the garrison there. they ended up bombing four weeks thousands of huts to retaliate for the incident that should not have recurred.
-- occurred. there was a shot that was allegedly fired by one soldier of splm. therefore, and the government of sudan, they come back with overwhelming force. the splm ba -- it was something that happened in an fervently. they continue to use that for genocide. >> no one is surprised by what khartoum is doing. what i was with the commander and he was doing interviews, he made the point over and over that the problem is not with the nuba people. they are united.
the problem is in the khartoum and that is how the government needs to look at it. this is not a tribal internal conflict. we have some obligations as caretaker of the cpa to enforce the troika. >> i would like to follow up on a couple of things you said that in your testimony and with the ranking member. with regards to these humanitarian flights -- let me back up -- you mentioned 70-93 -- you mentioned 70-90,000 people would die. is that from lack of food? >> i traveled around four countries during the 12 days i was there. it was a different trip and i made in 1998 where you had to do everything by ford. a lot of roads have been built
so you can really move around. there are 19 counties in southern cordofan state. i believe most of the nuba population is in five of those counties. the aerial bombing campaign is taking place there. we heard bombing and planes flying over us three or four times every day. in some places, they said have a good night's sleep realize the play never gets her before 7:00 in the morning so you need to get up before that. in other places they said they are bombing at night that by gps coordinate at three or 4:00 in the morning. there are about 425,000 people spread out over those five counties that are displaced from their homes.
when i was in another county, i learned there were 600 people in one month that were wounded by the bombing and there were more than 150 that had died by the bombing. i visited some of these people in the hospital. el brom is completely wiped out. every building is wiped out. most of the killing happened in the kadogglie. the spla controls most of southern cordofan state. the rest of the state is in control of the spla so the bombing is what is displacing 300 -- for under 25,000 people.
25% of them a will relate -- will get issues related to food. the road to the south is affected by swamp. this time of year. there is no access on the ground. there's very little access by air no play in wants to get shot out of the sky. there is no umbrella when we went to the nuba mountain in the 1990's, the existence of the ols gave a degree of insulation from. attacke attack. it is a much more dangerous situation now for an ngo or charter company or the nrdo to bring a flight in there.
>> those organizations were the ones flying in the humanitarian flights? >> the two groups that have continued to bring in flights and a very limited basis has been catholic church diocese and evade nrdo which is the relief -- indigenous relief organization in the nuba mountain. >> work and the point fly into? >> it is very difficult. they have to change locations all the time. they are running a real risk. the pilot that took me in was bombed. he said i will not come to pick you up so by three-day trip turned into a 12-day trip. the next line was about to come pick me up was diverted to go someplace else. we were stuck until we found somebody who was willing to take a rest. that is the reality right now. to as much worse than during the
existence of the ols. the u.n. needs to take action and declare him -- emergency at a minimum. >> thank you very much. i will yield back my time. >> thank you very much. >> i want to again thank you and mr. payne for that hearing. is there anybody here from our government at all? anybody? raise your hand. anybody here from the un? wow, anybody here from the sudan government? the embassy. ? this is a fundamentally evil government. they are fundamentally evil.
until your move bashir, this will continue. this will continue. it will not change. how long will the west pretend? it will continue. china welcomed to bashir. they gave him the red carpet. when an american businessman goes to china, -- you are meeting with a guy who has blood on his hands. the largest embassy in khartoum is the chinese embassy. they are all over the place. president bush offered them anti-aircraft material and this administration never sent it. you take one of those antono
v's out of the sky and that will change the dynamic. the un has failed. the u.n. failed in rwanda. the u.n. failed in bosnia. the u.n. failed in dar for. fur. they stood by and allowed 400,000 people to die. kofi and not watch what was happening in rwanda. president clinton felt so bad about it that he wanted rwanda to apologize because the state department was watching. what is taking place here took place in rwanda. nobody did anything. china is the problem. you have to remove bashir. he has to be removed.
regime change, government change, there is no other way. it has been going on for 21 years. 2.1 million people mainly christian but some muslim were killed in the north-south battle. 200,000 - 400,000 killed in darfur. people are being turned over to be taken away. that sounds like the nazis. that sense that something out of a bad movie. the u.n. has failed. these are war criminals. i don't think anybody connected to this government should be permitted to visit the united states. we should close their embassy down and force them out. libya? they are a problem because of gaddafi and syria is a problem
because of bashir. , i mean president assad. bashir is much worse. they should be expelled from the country. if this was happening in southern france or southern germany, this place would be electrified. it would be wild. it is happening in a country and it is racial, too. do not deny that it is racial. it is racial and religious. the world is standing by and allowing this to take place. the u.n. has failed and they are failing. i just don't want my country to fail. this administration better get some energy.
princeton lyman should step up or step down. i like him. no one from khartoum government should be -- no one connected to this government should be permitted to visit the west at all. thank you for being here and god bless you. this is an evil government. to sit in a hearing and talk about how maybe the u.n. could have done something, hitler was an evil man and this man is an evil man. it is time for our government to do something about it.
we're not talking about troops. we are talking about giving them the ability. are there tanks that the southern sudanese government has tried to bring in? where those tanks? they are still in kenya. they cannot defend themselves with them. i want to thank both of the witnesses and i appreciate this. we should send a message to the people of the south. the kingdom of kush is mentioned in the bible. i wonder how people in this administration will feel when they know they missed the opportunity. how will ban ki-moon feel when he sits there and does nothing. how will it feel when somebody writes a book about this? it is an evil government. the regime change should be taking place. bashir should be arrested and tried.
i want to thank you for being the leaders on this. thank you for getting out in front and speaking the truth and thank both of the witnesses for their time. >> thank you very much, congressman wolf. i agree 100%. these are not statistics. these are real people. the only reason why they are being exterminated is because they are african. they are indigenous africans. the only reason why they are being exterminated is because they don't subscribe to the same stripe of religion and khartoum. we cannot sit by and watch it happen. the president of united states ran very strong on this issue. he said that he supported a no- fly zone in darfur.
mr. president, what will you do? you know it is happening. what will you do? >> i am moved in on large -- and honored in seeing this committee talk about this. i want also to highlight while we are focusing on the issues, part of the matter is that on the ground, what can we do collectively in this country? we know the difficulties but we should keep an eye on southern sudan. they will be a home of refuge to the atrocities being committed
along the border. this is a country that we should invest in their in which to consider peace but i think fundamental issues, especially issues for war, education and ugly huts, it is in the context of the region. we visited with you in your office. the capacity of the government of southern sudan is important. whether we can use the south sudanese in the united states as americans to go back, an assistant building these places -- we feel it is important that the south sudanese americans can go and assist these governments. they have issues of student loans. this will be an important support to the government's of
sudan. when to put more focus along the border. otherwise, we will see more people displaced. i have seen many indigenous organizations other than us. we can help the people on the ground. we hope we can make a difference on the ground. thank you very much. >> thank you. back in the mid-1990s bus, i chaired the first hearing ever on sudan. the most people who had heard of the hearing and some people who who protested that i was holding a hearing ,taking bashir to
task force out of slavery, it was a hearing in search of a problem that did not exist. we know that is not the case. as recently as yesterday, called over to what our conference people advocating on behalf of another doctor deng who was enslaved as was his mother. he was hanged upside down and pepper was rubbed into his eyes causing a significant near blindness condition. ellen ratner has taken up his cause and will pay for him to get a significant medical treatment which will get him back his sight. i hope the embassy approves is the said. we have been trying for months. our side has not given the bcf.
him that the set yet. yet. over there they have committed slavery and continued to do so and the u.s. department of state suggested that it was not as widespread as many of us had gone from -- concrete information about. there is incriminating information about how this is not both sides committing things and somehow we will be the arbiter. which realize there's an all-out assault on the nuba people that have to be stopped as soon as possible and the u.n. security council and the u.s. and the african union all need to be on the same page to do so. president basbhir said in april he would use force.
this man as pathological. i met with him and i argued with him for well over one hour. about darfur in the mid- 1990s's. rather, the early 2000's. he reminded me of mr. milosevic and other dictators. there's something psychologically wrong with these individuals. even though they are involved in a state, they convey a cult legitimacy that is undeserving. throughout history, dictators have committed huge and terrific of atrocities. they are going on right now. we invited the state department and u.s. a id. we stand ready to reconvene at the drop of a hat. mr. payne and i will get back in
here from our own and ministration. that said . >> let me thank you again for your many years of passionate support. it is good to have a newcomer to bring into the team, ms. berle. berkle. the only thing we agreed on in congress was sudan. tom tancredo went with me to south sudan. we stayed in tents and with samaritans and i tell them that's what a joke. he did not know since he was never. he found out later that this was different.
he and senator brown back were were very supportive. senator frist and now senator cohen has expressed strong interest rate will continue to push. there is no respect from the government of khartoum even when president carter was visiting, bashir bombed the area to let them know he is in control. dr. gurang said bashir and his government are to reformed to be reformed. >> i could not agree more. dr. gurang's life was taken.
he fought for 21 years for independence for a million people displaced and 2 million people died. it was killed 21 days after the signing of the cpa. we have to remember the work he did. he wanted a new sudan. he was dreaming for a united sudan. the bashir regime was afraid of them. when you went to khartoum, the outpouring of tens of thousands of people from the north, moslems, came out to support him because they looked at him as a liberator and that got the bashir government concern that the absorption -- that someone from the south could become
president. they felt they had to keep the pressure on. i have to mention congressman smith. he kept this issue before is that we will continue to push for justice. we should have done that no-fly zone and if you take out a few of them -- you come in, we could have taken all those planes out. now we have a different situation. we have to keep the pressure on. we have to support the president who is struggling now to try to move this nation forward. we will continue to be the voice for the people of sudan, thank you. >> any final comments? no? i thank you so much and we will
continue this and it -- your wisdom and counsel and recommendations today. the hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [no audio] >> a couple of live events to tell you about today here on c- span. president obama will be at the washington navy yard to talk about the administration's plans to help veterans re-entering the workforce. that is at 11:00 a.m. eastern.
at 12:45 p.m. eastern, the joint economic committee will get the july jobs report from the bureau of labor statistics. ever >> weekend, american history tv on cspan 3 highlights the 150th anniversary this awarded this week, one of the most important documents, the emancipation proclamation. we have an albany law professor pop-up on this document. >> the house of representatives has been off eight weeks already this year including this week. did you get eight weeks of vacation? >> our guest tries to see take a slightly irreverent you in washington and the west. we are willing to step outside the box and try something
different and figure out how to make tv news exciting and entertaining and informative again rather than the garbage that it really has dwindled down to be. >> you of progress for network and show sunday night on c-span. >> in a few minutes, "washington journal." president obama will be at the washington navy yard to talk about the plans to help veterans re-entering the workforce live at 11:00 a.m. eastern. live at 12:45 p.m. eastern, the joint economic committee will get the july jobs report from the bureau of labor statistics. in about 45 minutes, we'll look at how the deal may affect defense spending with