coming up tonight on c-span, steve bannon and david from debate globalism versus cheneylism, then dick and land panetta discuss national security. after that, prime minister question time from the british house of commons. later, the work of the initiative, she founded with her husband mark zuckerberg. next, former white house state -- chief strategist david frum steve bannon and debate the rise of populism in the biannual munk debate, held in toronto. the 90 minute debate was moderated by munk debate director. >> you don't know which of your facts will be demolished. you don't know which of your arguments will be totally destroyed. you are not rattled, are you shaken up? you don't know what to say, but you have to say something.

♪ >> you can't take away -- >> i think it is time for this toxic, binary, zero some madness to stop. >> i haven't seen antibody be up -- anybody be a bigger snowflake than white men who complain. >> mommy, mommy, you have to share. >> barack obama has systematically rebuilt the trust of the world in our willingness to work through the security counsel and other -- >> you must not talk to anybody in the world, any of our allies. >> whatever you want to call this system, a feudal empire, it is a disaster for ordinary russians. >> he is a candidate for america first-ism.

it must all be related to the size of his hands. >> we can't have a vote about who prefers brits to curlyhaired canadians. we don't require divine permission to know right from wrong. we don't need that administered to us in tablet form. on pain of death to be able to have a moral argument. no. >> it won't be for long. you will find one in a thrift store and say, oh my god, remember we had these? >> we do not want pity. we want opportunity. >> it is appalling to me. to the muslim religion. >> i never said the word muslim, it was a muslim free culmination. >> that kind of restraint, it is that sensible, intelligent foreign policy that obama represents. when i'm telling you is he is

sort of a closeted canadian. vote for him. [applause] ♪ >> good evening, ladies and gentlemen. [applause] good evening. thank you for being here for the munk debate's. it is my privilege to be here to organize this debate series and once again act as your moderator. i want to start tonight's proceedings by welcoming the television and radio audience tuning into this debate, everywhere from canada's public affairs channel to c-span across the continental united states, to cbc radio. a warm hello to our online audience, who is watching this debate via our social media partner on facebook live, and on the munk debate website.

www.munkdebates.com. finally, hello to you, the over 2800 people, who raised -- braved some protest tonight to be here for this important debate. all of us at the munk debate's thank you for standing up for circumstances, -- sub a standstill serious conversation on the big issues changing our world. thank you. [applause] rudyard: bravo. thank you to the foundation that has the courage to support this series here in and year out for over a decade. let's have a round of applause for the munk family. in the late and great peter munk. [applause] rudyard: tonight's debate is happening just days before these critical midterm elections.

it will tackle one of the most important issues facing the western world, the rise of populist politics. we are going to ask tonight from these two debaters to answer some important questions. is the west living through a populist change that will irrevocably transform our politics? and can these long-standing liberal values, liberal values of trades, society and politics, push back against this populist surge and reassert their primacy in the 21st century? let's find out by getting this debate underway and getting our debaters out here, centerstage. arguing in favor of tonight's resolution, the future of western politics is populist, not liberal, is the former strategist to president donald trump and global populist

campaigner steve bannon. [applause] rudyard: speaking against that motion, it results future western politics is populist not liberal is the best-selling author, atlantic magazine senior editor and staunch critic of president trump and populist politics, toronto's own david frum. [applause] rudyard: for those of you watching online, we have a rolling poll and hashtag going tonight. already.nding

you can also go online and be willof a rolling poll that assess the debaters performance and allow you to vote on the resolution. finally, we have our countdown clock. this is one of my favorite innovations here. debaters, pay attention. because this is important. in the final minute of each segment of this debate, the audience will see a clock up -- clock appear on the screen. when the clock reaches zero, join me in a loud round of applause. that will keep our debaters on their toes. and our debates on time. this will be fun. this is a different experiment tonight for us. we are going to experiment with some live voting on the resolutions. all of you received a clicker. i have got mine here somewhere. let me find it. it looks something like this. everyone take out their clicker. we are going to ask you to vote

on the resolutions. is populism the future and liberal values pushed back? if you are in favor of the motion, i want you to press a or n your clicker or the number one. if you are opposed to the motion, there are no do overs here, you're going to press be, , or number two. you can't vote in the midterm elections, but you can vote right now. we are going to let those results tabulate. we will give people a few minutes. i'm going to remind the online audience that they can go to our website. www.munkdebates.com/vote. you can see how your fellow online watchers are going to gauge opinions at the start of this debate. let's close the question and see

the results. what is this audience thinking as it goes into tonight's debate? how is public opinion divided in this room? can we see these results on the screen. there you have it. 28% of you agree, 72% of you disagree. an interesting start. now, we will ask a second question. we are going to ask right now, what your views are to your own state of mind. are you likely to change your opinion over the course of this debate? could you hear something on stage that could cause you to switch your vote at the end of tonight. if you think you could change your vote, press the number one or the letter a. if your mind is set, if you are fixed here and you are not going to get budged from your view,

or number two. for our online audience coming you can do the same thing via our online poll. i am going to give a few more moments for the audience to input their vote. i think everybody is done now. let's get those results now. we are going to close the question and show our debaters how much opinion in this hall is in play. take a moment to put those numbers up. i will give it a couple more seconds. there, we've got it. 57% of you, a majority here, could potentially change their vote. this debate is very much in play. let's get it underway. we are going to start with opening statements. eight minutes each, a bit longer than usual, to give these debaters time to articulate their views.

as per convention, the person speaking in favor of the motion will go first. steve bannon, i had the podium -- i hand the podium to you. steve: i want to thank the people of toronto, the munk family for hosting this and for the men and women outside who are exercising their freedom of speech rights to protest. it is not a question of whether populism is on the rise and populism is going to be the political future. the only question before us is if it is going to be populist nationalism or populist socialism? to understand the velocity and the intensity and the depth of the populist revolt on a global basis, we have to go back to the beginning. what hollywood would call the inciting incident. i want to take you back to september 18, 2008, washington, dc in the oval office. i think it is 10:00 in the morning. president bush --

>> [screaming] [booing] [screaming] rudyard: we respect your right to free speech, but we have plenty of other people who want this debate to go on. can i have a round of applause? [applause] rudyard: thank you. let's have a round of applause. [applause] rudyard: for her free-speech right. we appreciate that. thank you very much. [applause]

rudyard: ok. if i can have your attention on the stage. we will follow a policy tonight. this person has been cautioned. if she does not stop, she will unfortunately be asked to leave this debate. madame, it is your decision. you can stay or you can go. what are we going to do? [applause] rudyard: ok, you are still engaging, officers, we will go forward with our plan, can you please remove the person from the hall? [applause] rudyard: thank you very much. a big round of applause to the toronto police services. [applause] rudyard: fabulous job.

ok, steve, you have the floor again. [laughter] rudyard: we will give you an extra minute on the clock. steve: no, no, no. i will play by the rules. we are in the oval office. the secretary of treasury walks in and tells the president of the united states, by 5:00 this afternoon, we need a $1 trillion cash infusion. if we don't get it, the american financial system will implode in 72 hours, we will have global anarchy and chaos. the greatest enemies of the united states, who selena, hitler, the soviet union, osama bin laden, nobody has ever

brought the united states to its knees like that day. who did that? who is responsible for that? the populist? donald trump? no. the elites. the political class that runs washington, d.c. that is who did it. what was their solution? to create money and bail themselves out. on the day that happened, the balance of the federal reserve was $880 billion. when donald trump took the oath of office, january 20, 2017, it was $4.5 trillion. just like the bank of england. the european central bank. the party at delphos, the elites bail themselves out, afraid of some sort of inflationary death spiral. that is not a free bail out. there is a corollary to that.

savings accounts are zero, pension funds have the biggest gap in history, you can't underwrite a bond in the united states, for a public school, you get 2%. the little guy would bear the burden of that. if you own assets, real estate, stocks, hedge fund, name it, in the last 10 years, you had the greatest run in history. for everybody else, it was a disaster. 50% of american families can put cash -- oft $400 of their hands-on cash. right? [applause] [laughter] 60% of their jobs, it wasn't donald trump, it wasn't the populist movement. the nationalist movement, it isn't a cause of that, it is a product of that.

donald trump's presidency is not a cause of that, it is a product of that. when i stepped into the campaign in mid-august, 70% of the american people believed for the first time in our history to -- of the country was in decline and the elites were ok with that. whether it was education of the southern border, china, korea, iran, our education, our health system. it was donald trump that turned that around. it is the party -- [laughter] steve: this is a very tough crowd. [laughter] steve: we will have plenty of time to go through this. [applause] steve: the party data is, the scientific managerial engineering, financial elite that run the world have left a financial waistline decoupled

-- wasteland decoupled from the working class throughout the world. that is why brexit, now paulson eric commission not be lost to is that the table scenario elected as the day angela merkel will leave the stage. trump's economic nationalism doesn't care about your race, your religion, your color. [laughter] ok, i have a whole night to convert you. i saw the 28%. it doesn't. it doesn't matter your gender, doesn't matter your sexual preference. i said economic nationalism. work with me. it cares if you're a citizen. look at the results today.

lois black unemployment in history, lowest hispanic unemployment and 30 years. the populist and nationalist message and its policies are working in the united states and it is spreading. the result in europe and now in latin america, and i contacted -- i get contacted every day from asia, from africa from the middle east. we are at the beginning of a new political revolution and that is populism. the only question before us is if it's going to be a populist nationalism that believes in capitalism and giving the guy a little piece of the action, and break up this crummy capitalism of big corporations and big government, or is it going to be a jeremy corbyn and bernie sanders type of populist socialism? because the party of demos and

the elites -- the party of elites have blown too many calls. too many existential events. the rise of china, the $7 trillion spent on the worsen -- wars in iraq and afghanistan. the deregulation that led to the financial crisis in 2008 rate -- how the financial crisis was bailed out. as you know, most of you in this room that work in finance were heading toward another financial crisis. that is the question before us. what form of populism? i hope tonight that the good people in toronto will listen with open ears as we debate this topic. thank you very much. [applause] thank you, steve. david, we are going to put eight minutes on the clock. you now have the stage.

david: thank you. i think we are all here to welcome steve bannon to president trump's least favorite country. [applause] [laughter] david: i worry that some of those protesters have confirmed the idea that canada does present a pillowcase national security threat. [laughter] david: but i would like to begin tonight by taking the protesters question very seriously. and to answer this question, why are we here? what are we hoping to achieve tonight? we are not here to do a show. we are here to engage in the most important, most dangerous challenge that liberal democratic institutions have faced. steve bannon is a figure from history. a very important person. he advised the president when the future president was on his way to losing and steve bannon helped turn the campaign around. he has been an advisor to parties all across europe.

many of which are in power, such as italy. he has been an advisor to the president of brazil. his breitbart.com became an urgent force, transforming the way conservatism used to be into a new kind of political movement. all of that is his work. what do i hope to accomplish tonight by being here with him and engaging with him? first, i want to do three things. first, i want to speak to those who are genuinely undecided. it might not be so many, but you are important. you may be wondering, does the kind of politics that steve bannon is speaking for an -- and president trump particulates, does that offer me anything? should i listen to it? i am here tonight to tell you, it offers you nothing. it does not care about you, it does not respect you -- [applause] david: steve bannon has said it

is anger and fear that drives people to the polls. anger and fear is what is offered. nothing substantial. for those of you folks who are undecided, i want to speak to you who see president trump's politics for what it is and who resisted. i know how worried you are. i know the fear that many feel. i stand here to reignite your faith and to speak to your courage. these symbols that many of us wear tonight on our lapels remind us that this is not the first time that democracy has faced thugs, crooks, and would be dictators and those who seek to build themselves up by tearing each other's down. they were wrong then, they are wrong now. [applause] david: we are here to show that

we are what our parents and our grandparents were. the challenges and threats they met and overcame, we can do the same. the last group of people i want to speak to, and maybe this is the most important, i want to speak to those who see trump politics for what it is. and to those who supported anyway. many people are excited by the joy of destruction. wrecking things they could never build, smashing things they do not understand. steve bannon has talked about burning everything down. i'm sure he means that metaphorically. we are nearing the 80th anniversary of kristallnacht, and there are people who understand burning non-metaphorically. i'm here to say commit you will lose. you have been winning. it has been five good years for you people.

but you will lose. when you lose, your children will be ashamed of you and they will disavow you and the future will not belong to you. [applause] david: it starts tonight. we have a definitional problem as we begin this debate. we are using words that have big meanings. liberal, populist. we are not exactly sure how to use them. it is strange, a lifelong conservative, to be on the liberal side of this debate. i am not a liberal. i am a conservative, but what i and other conservatives have thought to conserve is liberal heritage. this is something conservatives and liberals share. we are trying to conserve a state that does not steal, a media that does not lie, courts that respect the rights of all and voting that is available to everybody commit even if the people who are counting the votes are afraid that those who are voting may

vote against them. [applause] what is populism? it claims to speak for the people. it always begins by subdividing the people. and by saying monk -- some among the people, because of their skin, the way they pray, their gender, whom they love, how they conduct themselves or some other reason, some of the people are not the people. they are those people. populism begins dividing the country between those people and our people. and saying those people don't matter but our people do. it is only on that basis. trump do thisent again and again. he will say things like, i have 52% of the vote of women. that is not true. you had 52% of the vote of white women. the others don't matter. for him, the people is always, always only part of the people. those who think differently and those who report on our crooked business deals, they are enemies

of the people. even though they are exercising the right that you would think with the long to the people. why will this populism idea lose? it is for one reason, this new populism is a scam, it is a fake. it has nothing. i don't mean that just in the sense that so many of its rooks, although they are. president trump is a crook. i don't mean that -- president trump is a crook. donald trump is running the most unethical administration in american history. enriching himself as he goes.

[applause] david i mean it in another way. : it is a scam even in its own terms. what do they deliver? donald trump is running the american economy and the way he ran his family businesses. he inherited a fortune, proceeded to dissipated and tells everyone what great -- what a great job he's doing. [applause] in octoberdit that 200 50,000 jobs were created, congratulations, good number. there are 26 months under president obama were that many jobs were created. there were five months under president obama where 300,000 jobs were created. it is not donald trump's doing, no matter how much he says it is. here is what his -- is his doing. the trade deficit with china, and illegal immigration that is running faster than it ran in the two years before he took office. there is going to be a lot more to talk about tonight. i want to ensure all of you that

-- assure all of you that liberal democracy is stronger than it looks. since 1945 -- [applause] the best society has ever seen as the new populism is based on one assumption. . [applause] >> your time is up. we will do something a little bit different tonight. we will have timed rebuttals. we will let both of the debaters engage with what they have heard in the opening statements. we will have two of these rounds. steve, you are up first. we will put three minutes on the clock. steve this is the oldest trick : in the book. smear the populist movement. smear the deplorables. hillary clinton tried that. we saw how that turned out. the reason the populist movement rose, is because of the been

stationed you work in. you keep talking about the ability to make these decisions and how great a decision you're going to make and all these -- scumbags and thieves that are in the populist movement. the concept of the economist -- the reason you call it that is -- they are winning with two thirds of the vote. donald trump wins with over 300 electoral votes. tough. [laughter] tough. in the watch of president bush, we saw the rise of china and was told there was a second law of

thermodynamics, they were going to become a liberal democracy and a free market capitalist. we watched beginning processed of the united states shipping all of the the shipping jobs over there. the great study of the deplorables, it shows a correlation between the factories that left, the jobs that went with it and opioid crisis. they took away people's self worth and dignity. the second was the great decisions and the $7 trillion, that is brown university, that is not breitbart. that is what it cost for these wars that we haven't one. 10,000 dead and $7 trillion spent. the last is the financial debacle on their watch. it is pretty easy to sit here with these terms, the populist movement is not racist.

[screaming] look at the economic benefits that are coming through president trump's policy. if you think about obama, he didn't understand the math between $880 billion and 4.5 trillion. it is pretty easy to create things and you are flooding -- you cannot save anymore. [applause] you don't have a pension plan. that is all the work of the great elites that look at the populist movement as a bunch of racists. it is not. they are the backbone of our country. the most decent people on our earth. here in canada, you are built on the same blocks the little person, the common good. [applause] i did work for president bush

and i served him on one of the darkest days in american history, 9/11. i was an the white house that day -- i was in the white house that day. david: ben and voted for president bush twice, i believe that is correct. we have one other thing in common. he will maybe not remember this but this is the second time we have met. the first time, i made an appearance in one of his films. it was 10 years ago. i got a call from a friend of mine, there was this lost her banker who was heading up a career for a hollywood producer and would i be interviewed for one of his movies? at the end of it, steve bannon kindly sent me back to work in one of his limos. i am very surprised to see my friend emerging as this fiery tribune of populism. [applause] david: it is absolutely true that democracy is in trouble now

because of failures in the past. as of the financial crisis and because of unsuccessful wars. it is true that liberal democracy in the 1930's got into trouble egos of mistakes that were made. there would have been no fascism if the 1920's had led to permit -- permanent success. the failures of a good system are not reasons to turn to an evil one. [applause] david we have to renew and : repair. when steve bannon and i talk, one of the things we have in common is in a world of republicans that say everything is fine, steve bannon was one of the first to see that things were not fine. we saw the same things. we saw the stress that was happening to middle-class incomes. we saw the tensions that were rising as well became extremely unequal in the united states. it is interesting to reconnect because we had very different

responses to that. the populist movement sees those as opportunities to exploit, to destroy and overthrow. i see them as flaws that demand reform. constructive free care and renewal. what you're being asked to vote on tonight is not, was everything handled well during the bush years? what time in history was everything handled well? what are you going to do about it. how are you going to respond, what kind of world do you want to build? the choice is between destruction and renewal. between freedom and non-freedom. the choice is between a society that respects everybody, all the people and politics that defined the people against the people. always exclude somebody out and makes the basis of the nation the suppression of much of the nation. [applause]

>> david frum needs no introduction. he is one of the most significant public intellectuals in the united states. i reached out to him when i made a film. about the financial perspective because i needed his intelligence i needed his , perspective, i needed his wisdom. it is a high priority for me and others in the populist movement to convert people like david frum. to our cause. [laughter] stephen: we are not trying to stop elections. we are going to win elections. we love elections. we are going to win. we are not saying don't have elections. we are the true anti-fascists. fascism looks to worship the state. the trump movement has economic nationalism, america first national security policy and deconstruction of the administrative state.

the progressives have built up thinkinistrative state, of the cabinet departments we have, it is something, it is the fourth branch of government. they are all about deconstructing, it is not deregulation. it is taking the leviathan apart brick by brick which david frum has argued for for 30 years of his professional life. economic nationalism is putting your country first when it comes to the economy and to not have the maximization of shareholder value but the maximization of citizenship value. [applause] steve if the trump program is so : bad, david, how did we get the new nafta deal? and the key to the nafta deal -- [booing] i forgot i'm in toronto. [laughter] it is to create a manufacturing

base that will counter east asia and not allow china to gain the system through mexico. the benefits of this as you see the supply chain in japan and korea, they have bilateral deals with us. it is going to be enormous. it is like the original nafta when canada's economy went up 10 times. because of the manufacturing it took from the u.s. you are going to see the supply chain start to come back. [laughter] steve: reasonable men can disagree. the america first national security policy of america first is on the back of the deplorables. it is their sons and daughters in the south china sea. on the 30th parallel. that network of commercial relationships, trade deals from europe to the persian gulf to

the south china sea, president trump is trying to reinforce that. make nato work. make the gulf emirates work. navigation of the south china sea and make our allies -- [applause] >> david. >> that is exactly what we are going to do. we will put another three minutes on the clock. let's see where this goes. david: how did you get the new nafta? i am going to tell you a true story. when president trump found his trade advisor. as one does he asked his son-in-law to find him one. jared kushner went to the amazon website and typed the words

china and trade into the browser and he pulled up a video called death by china. it was an exciting video, lots of flames. peter navarro -- i don't know where he was teaching. he is now the chief trade advisor to the united states. maybe it fits, because when president trump was taking notes, he wrote as a prompted one of his speeches, trade is bad. how to get the new nafta? a lot of responsible people surrounded donald trump and try to encourage him to do as little damage as possible to the most important trading zone on earth. the good news is even though trump knocked the cell phone to the floor, the screen is not too badly damaged. nafta is waiting there to be repaired. and brought into the modern age when there are people who can negotiate the digital economy. none of which got done.

no constructive work got done. all that was happening was that nafta was being destroyed. one of the questions we talk about here tonight is nationalism and globalism. north american lungs breathe chinese pollution. russian missiles shootdown malaysian airliners with european citizens aboard. the only way we're going to stop this planet from getting too hot for our species to live on as if we all work together. it is one planet. [applause] david we love our country. : only three countries can we exercise our democracy. how did donald trump get nafta? by bullying people. not by treating them as partners. he has never been able to negotiate a win-win deal. canada and mexico are less powerful than the united states. in the past, the u.s. said even though that is true, we can work together. but this idea of america first,

or france first, or germany first, it gives aggressively less attractive as we named the other countries that would put themselves first. we left that behind to say we are going to build a community of democratic nations who understand that of course there are clashing interests that had to be worked out. we are stronger, always, when we work cooperatively and when we can build peace and prosperity. that is a liberal idea. [applause] david in the truest sense. : the thing we have been arguing about for 200 years is is the relationship of human beings one of dominance or the one of fruitful cooperation? [applause] david: and that is the question on the ballot tonight. [applause] steve: the populist nationalist movement in europe, i have gone

around and met the leaders. i am not an advisor to these individuals. i have set up a movement to help them be the connective tissue not one leader, haven't heard , one say they want to destroy the european union. they talk about the sovereignty of their country. they want their countries back and they want their countries to be sovereign entities. they want their citizens to be empowered and not report to these transnational entities that have no accountability. the ecb and the eu. they want to make the european union not the united states and italy is like south carolina and france is like georgia. they want to make it a collection of sovereign, individual states that were -- work together. why is that so hard? why is that demonized? why is the nation's fate so -- the nationstate that has been with us and is essential world, whyock of our

is the nation's fate so scorned and demonized? what people want is subsidy or the -- they want is much control as they can have as citizens. that is through the nationstate. donald trump gave that back to the american people. i know you might mock and ridicule him, but the economic turnaround didn't come from obama. everybody in the united states knows that. [applause] steve the most progressive : president and the united states and he can't defend this, flooded the zone and bailed out the elite in this country. we have socialism in the u.s. for the wealthy and a brutal form of darwinian capitalism for everybody else. the devil caps on most. -- catch the hindmost. that is what the future entails we don't get this right. entrusted ministration and in further administration's.

if we don't bring out the benefits of capitalism, if we allow the millennials -- they are better fed, they are better clothed, they are in better shape, they have access to more information. they don't own anything and they're not going to own anything. because of what obama did, they are 20% behind today or their -- where their parents were and they cannot afford a house there , are no pension plans, there are no careers. that, by the way, is the biggest potential for our populist movement. the millennials. they're going to see the logic about what we are talking about. we are not saying we shouldn't have elections. you don't like it now because the republicans can't we do the -- cannot win any elections. what you serve up and -- in all

your brilliance -- [applause] steve: did they bring me out here to defend the obama economic record? >> this is a weird argument. in the end of the worst month in financial markets. the financial markets are telling you the trump economy is careening to disaster. steve bannon cares a lot about manufacturing jobs. since the bottom of the recession, the night states -- the united states economy has created one to million manufacturing jobs. one third of those jobs was created while barack obama was president, one third sense donald trump has taken over. this is the a cotton -- continuation of the obama economy with higher interest rates and or tariffs and as

steve bannon said with a giant financial crisis heading our way. it is created by the actions of this presidency. how did populism always ends in economic disaster. populist economics is not interested in results, it is not interested in the future. it is an attempt to exploit emotions to gain power. president trump on the campaign trail has accusing the democrats wanted to turn the had sensitive -- into venezuela. by argentina. the u.s. will friday $1 trillion deficit in the coming fiscal year, a bigger deficit than george h. w. bush ran to win the first gulf war and a bigger deficit than george bush to fight the second gulf war. all of this is coming to a head and the financial markets are telling us this. it is a funny thing to talk

about millennials. i don't know if there are many here. some of mine? [applause] david they are unpersuaded. :they are not mobilized. all humans like think they can feel when they are respected and they know who has their interests at heart and they are going to demonstrate on who they feel is not protecting tuesday them. [applause] david: this debate if in another way. but we are arguing about is not who is right and who is wrong. of course, i am right. we are arguing to who does the future belong? is it possible to be right and still to lose? the future belongs to my side of the argument. the future only belongs to those who care about it. the future does not want to those who immolate the future to gain a temporary advantage. that is the policy of the trump administration and that is what

are, high tariff parties they do not know what they want to do they only know who they , hate. hate doesn't build. [applause] >> this is just too good. i am going to put another three minutes on the clock. you are not getting off easy. another three minutes, come out -- come back on david on those points. steve this is the whole thing. : the other smear. i never thought david would stoop to. , my esteem for them as a public intellectual. this whole thing about hate. donald -- people said donald trump hates muslims. and islamophobia. where is the first place donald trump went? [laughter] steve: hang on.

hang on. it was to bring -- [booing] [laughter] steve: bear with me. the islamic world and reached -- had reached out to us. there had been limited engagement during the obama administration. the obama administration was engaged with iran. the first summit in riyadh was set up to discuss three things they brought up. how do you eradicate islamic terrorism from the face of the earth by cutting off the financing? number two, how did the arab world come together as one with israel to stop the expansion of iran? and number three, we have to go through some form of modernity can you assist us in some way? , we have to do this ourselves.

three things that they asked for, even before he won the election. how does trump get to be called a hater. he went over there and said here is how we stop the advance of radical islamic terrorism. it is boeing back on your societies today in western europe and the united states. look at the improvement we have made in just two years. look at the eradication of isis that was done in conjunction. in 2014, isis had 8 million people under slavery. they had oil wells, they were taxing people. that was trump coming together with the muslim world to strike. -- to destroy it. in addition, it was the beginning of an alliance, the beginning of a partnership. as imperfect as it is in that part of the world with the arab , world and israel and the united states and the nations of europe to stop the expansion of

hezbollah in iran. the third was assist the arab world in any way. they have to do it like virginity had to do it to go , through its own enlightenment. yet trump is smeared every day as islam a phobic and a hater. actions, look, it is the signal and the noise. look at the signal, he pointed out every day. the noise, i understand, is a flash bang grenade. ok? [applause] >> you guys have been superb. you have practically made me irrelevant in this debate and that is a sign of a great debate, when the moderator doesn't have to step in. i want to ask a couple questions that i know are on people's minds.

david, i will start with you in the midterms on tuesday. critical test of this presidency. he seems to have campaigned at of a populist playbook. hard message on immigration, some people with a shocking message on immigration. hard message on china and trade. a demonization of the media and so-called elites. why isn't that a powerful proof point for your opponent here tonight, the effectiveness of those populist memes have with the american voter? as opposed to your liberal idealism? david: we will see how careful they are. i think donald trump's president because of something else he did. steve bannon was there. this was very clever which was donald trump campaigned in 2016 as the one republican who would respect and protect american health insurance.

he gave an interview in september to dr. oz -- it is watched by a lot of people. 80% of his audience has a income of less than 33 -- 30,000 a year. donald trump said on the program, we are going to come up with health care plans that will be so good and so much less expensive, both for the country and the people, and so much better. [laughter] david lack of detail, but you : hear the commitment. what did he do? nothing. care under donald trump and for the dr. oz audience is worse. denying coverage to people who are already ill and the democrats are talking about health insurance, republicans should have had an answer. one of the elites, mitt romney, he did. he got a larger share of the popular vote the donald trump. the ball didn't bounce right for him in the electoral college, so the job was left for barack obama to do. that is going to be a pounding

because the people who are supposedly here to protect, the people who if we are actually concerned about them, they need a health system that works for them and donald trump has blown it up. [applause] >> i'm going to come to you with a midterm question. you have said it, this is a critical test of your guy, of this president. if he does not maintain both houses, his presidency is in real danger. according to you, that is the end of his populist movement, that is the end of your populist icon. steve: we are in the top of the inning. if you look at what is going to happen, we will hold the senate and it is a complete dogfight for the house and we will see. if we loose the house and i have seen david talking, the trump program will grind to a halt.

it is a process. brexit and 2016 are linked, look at exit two years later, they are no closer to a deal when the first started area the establishment was not going to pass the british workers on the head and said what a great idea, just leave the eu, just like trump, they will not pass him in the said -- on the head and say that is fantastic. you'll have to win election after election. i think the trump lease understands that. i anticipate it will turn out but i want to address one thing with david. we one is a coalition them out one of the first thing i did was reach out to the establishment, we had to win as a coalition just like the reagan coalition where you had economic anti-communistnd and you had the religious right. we have the same thing, we have the establishment, the populist

limited government conservatives, we are a broad coalition, that is what needs to come together to win and an governing we turned immediately theye republican party and said we have got it, give us the keys on health care, we have been working on this for seven years. the debacle on health care in that first year was 100% the republican establishment. haverns out they did not an idea about health care. the same thing with taxes, we were going to start with the adjustable tax that paul ryan had worked for seven years on. that got blown up and we had to do the tax plan we had, i argued as many of you know that read the wall street journal in the overall office for 44% tax rate of people that make over $5 million a year. i was blown up. i was bone up by the progressive democrats that were in the administration. the wall street guys. who forced in the big tax cuts and trump is realizing it was

not the best thing to do, that is why he wrote the tax cut last week. [laughter] steve: he is getting his sea legs, you do not start day one. segue. is a great ofid: the best defense donald trump is the job is too hard for him. [applause] david: he looks cruel and unfeeling and bigoted and hateful, but the problem is he has never run a large enterprise before and never paid debts before so how could he do it? the buck must stop anywhere else. these trump get all things, he signed all these things. it is an amazing fact about the

presidency that you do have to deal with other people and you do have to make compromises and build coalitions and if you cannot do that you are not very good at the job of being president. economy is growing at 2.5%, trump is taking liquidity out. steve: he is not opening up this big it's to liquidity. he is the one trying to rejuvenate nato. he is the one going, hey, you cannot listen, the british can put up one combat division, the , theh, to combat divisions u.s. cannot bear the burden, we have a $1 trillion defense will. it is $1 trillion. we cannot afford to continue to do that. it is not that we don't want to be engaged in the world and we will not but what trump is

saying from europe to the person trade deals, commercial relationships, capital markets, and american security guarantee. we have to have partners like we have allies in canada and israel and uae, everyone else has to step up and be an ally. and -- i doeen one not want the discussion of aboutsm to devolve trump's presidency. i have not seen a bad decision from trump yet. [laughter] david: when we talked about trump and nato, this is where i feel for the poignancy of steve bannon's position. he wore the uniform at the united states, and her daughter --

the 21ste is with airborne. david: steve bannon described the meeting with agents of the russian state as borderline treason. [applause] accept that you believe in america's defense relationship with its allies but your president does not and his family does not and they are selling the u.s. about america first national security. donald trump is trying to save that alliance am a people have to put into percent of gdp. you can continue on like this. when we stepped in we put a $30 billion supplemental just because of operational readiness. the italian-german defense bill -- budget is not war than $30 billion. trump is more engaged in the

persian gulf, more engaged in the south china sea, more engaged in the northwest pacific, more engaged in nato than any president in living many -- memory but he is doing it in a way that said we cannot bear the burden. and wen their shoulders are not looking to be an impeller -- an empire. >> a suggestion. >> yes, mom. [laughter] >> if the suggestion is as you made a couple of times, the deplorables, meaning trump supporters who are doing the fighting, this is an example of the ills of populism because may i remind you that forces one third eight up of nonwhite people who did not vote for donald trump and they get

forgotten and omitted from the story. we have to be able as we see the country, as we see the u.s. to see it as it is, you are only a patriot as you -- if you love your country as it is, not as you imagine as it was in the past and chop off groups of people you do not think belong there. donald trump on nato has made it clear through the campaign that nato countries are not being defended. interview said in an at the republican convention, estonia is a nato partner. , any ofing all of this these, these parties that you , they alley are all have some sinister, murky connections to russian power. your italian friends, i do not put this on you, i know you wore the uniform but i don't know how having worn the uniform can

sit with these people who have the sinister connections and know that there is someone else who does not have the interest and he country at heart is calling the tune to all of these populist parties. [applause] russia.ant to return to daughter had 15 noncommissioned officers, all of them african-american or hispanic. something like one third or 40% is made up of african-americans alone. donald trump understands that. one of the focuses we have, that --why lack in unemployment hispanic unemployment is low, one of the things is to take a 5% of bernie sanders' movement, the focus and i have said this from day one, to get one third

to 40% of the african-american vote and 40% of the hispanic vote, that realignment with the trump base will give us a governing majority for 50 years, it will be like 1932. 1.8 million african-americans voted for barack obama did not fill -- vote for hillary clinton. they were [indiscernible] they may not be prepared to vote for donald trump now but it is a process. i think the democratic party will be in shock on tuesday about the turnout of the african-american vote and i think the hispanic vote, if donald trump and his republican party as it has been remade, not mccain, the bush party come a if they believe that african-americans will vote for them they would allow them to vote rather than ending heaven and earth to stop them. [applause]

>> so many promises since then said they should be allowed to and the candidate is doing everything to stop them. 2016 is happened in true, black voter turnout dropped between barack obama and hillary clinton. you might say that make sense. something else that is weird, fewer blackton got people then turned out to vote for john kerry. that is hard to explain. unless you remember that between 2010 and 2016, a lot was done to me get more difficult for those ethnic minorities to vote. that is not happening by accident. it is a plan for you and you cannot say, this is why i keep returning that populism is not the politics of some of the people, it is some of the people defining other people is not asple and declaring media

enemies for people to send pipe bombs to in the name of donald trump. >> that is the question we have to address which is the incredible hate that has seem to have surfaced during these midterm elections. architect ofvowed the muslim travel ban, you participated in that. you are someone -- was upheldband that by the supreme court. that travel ban? apparent --our opponents are called evil and amerco. are you going to say that all that populist rhetoric is not responsible for the spike that we have seen and the numbers are real in terms of clinical violence and even worse, white supremacist terror.

did hillary clinton not to or through weeks ago -- >> we are getting off topic. answer the question. >> can you answer the question? noneere is no correlation, , there is no correlation between the rhetoric of our movement and what is going on. the first individually -- individual was obviously mentally ill, he had done this back in the 1990's and the horrible tragedy in pittsburgh thought trump was too close to the jewish people because he had moved our embassy to jerusalem. he thought trump was to close to -- jewish people, he thought he was a hard-core anti-semi. how can you leave that on donald trump? the rhetoric is just as bad on the left, the opposition

[indiscernible] made a film, what i took was don lemmon, i respect don lemmon. i took don lemmon's greatest hits when he looks into the camera and says it is not donald trump is a racist, you are a xenophobia, you are a racist and antifat with footage of beating these people up. someone said where did you get this footage and this was shot by the cable networks, it is shot by people, it is never played. it is a noise trump's supporters that are the racists, always trumps supporters that are the cause of all this. they never talk about antifa, and never talk about intimidation. do not sit here and tell me that the left and the democratic party and the instigators like hillary clinton and holder, when

they go well, kick them. that is never mentioned. the violence that is brought up the democratic left is far worse than inspired than our movement. boos] >> when you are assessing trump, that -- you have to distinguish signal from noise, steve bannon said. one of the things i learned is when the president -- what the president says is what the president does. in no waytrump is accountable for that terrible crime in pittsburgh. what he is accountable for is what he did not do afterwards. that could not find words, he

could not find something in himself. that is a personal failing, that maybe does not have political consequences, but the pipe alms, that is a different story. that was a person who was not political and became obsessed with trump and everyone who got the pipe bomb was a name to target of president trump. if someone listen to eric holder and decided to take him literally rather than metaphorically as he intended to do and someone had gone on a kicking rampage and kicked someone to death and he had eric holder posters all over his room, i would see a pretty contrite eric holder today. but that did not happen. what did happen was the pipe bombs went to president trump's, the people who had named. >> i blame the people who got the pipe bombs. >> trump made them targets. he never made them targets. he never has sat there and said they are targets, you cannot

equate the two. >> there are 330 million people in the u.s. and most of them like all people are wonderful, but some are disturbed and disturbed people like the unconscious mind, always seeks to be taken seriously, to express in terms that are intelligible. president said town and give permission and most of us will never behave from lena matter who the president is and that is why american society is not dissolving as we spake. if people acted like the president, the place would be awesome city. m city.a ande are people at the cusp the askar my behaviors normal? we have seen that this is one of the reasons that breitbart is powerful, not for good. you can see the radicalization within the so-called legitimate conservative media, how much more radical fox news is, how much more they get too crazy

conspiracy theories and how much more, while no one wants violence, how much more airtime it gives to subliminal anti-semitic messaging. everyone, every jew who hears the way judge -- george soros is talked about here is the subtext beneath the text. >> in a way i can't put myself completely in a person's shoes but try to imagine how much it means to black people or asian-americans or execute americans or memories -- members of any other group that when you hear this barrage and you hear something that seems like we are talking about this one shadowy mastermind who bends the world to his will through his conspiracy, just one person, we

all hear it and we know what is meant and we feel endangered area and -- endangered. >> and to be conscious of the time. >> we will respond to that and we are going to closing statements. >> i thought we would engage the more. >> lets a of the statements and have combat. i said in the new york times, george soros is demonized because he is effective, not because he is jewish and he has been proud of how effective he has been. i kind of model myself and my ngo's on him, that is how effective he has been and he has not been shy about bragging about what he has done and how much money has put to work, he has been incredibly effective. and that regard, he is a role model by his effectiveness. it is theurity and admissions price.

when you are doing in this type of environment, it is the admissions price, it does not matter about george soros being jewish, it is like globalists, it is not some dog whistle, it is not about the illuminati or the jesuits or the freemasons or the protocols of the elders of zion. -- davty at death most os, it is in your face every day. look at the anonymous op-ed that was written about president rolling coup in his administration. they are proud and they said we are the steady state. that is what it is. there is no hidden conspiracy, there is no subliminal, the commercials were they rip on trump was written by myself and stephen miller, he is jewish. there was nothing about, no code words about that. it was off a hillary clinton speech. this is the thing that just,

ony acid that is dropped trump every day, they try to delegitimize him, he has not been deep -- delegitimize. this is the nullification product -- project that started from the moment he won. the establishment rejected him, they considered him a clown, they consider us clowns, the island of misfit toys that ran this campaign in which -- reached out to working people and said your concerns are ours. it was not trump that used barack obama to go to places like iowa where he had one in landslides before a long -- or ohio, that was hillary clinton's campaign. inc. of the total demonization. i understand how he has triggered people, that is why we may lose the house. disagree with the ideology, i admire their grit and determination because they understood something that david and the republican establishment

did not get that donald trump is a transformative resident and a historic figure. he is going to be in your lives 10, 20, 30 years from now. boos] >> it is not just about the judges that will go to 200, they will be federal society and originalists and deconstruct the administration. that is why the left has been out there like the tea party. why do you think they have been out there doing the hard work of politics, knocking on doors? you know why? they have to stop him a tuesday or he will get further in their lives. they understand he is transformative. they understand he is a historical president and it is going to keep on. >> closing statements, five minutes on the clock for david

and stephen -- and for steve, you get the last word area david: i appreciate my emotion to the republican establishment. baby that will help me get a reservation at the trump hotel where the lobbyists and members gather for overpriced stakes and put the money into the president pocket. that seems to be worth the establishment is today. if donald trump and the republicans lose on tuesday, and if they lose badly, it is not whateverf the left, that means. it is not because of the 50 who writeck mask guys around breaking windows and committing mayhem, most of them are probably related, paid police informants. trump will lose because of a lot of people who voted republican will say it enough, this is not america.

[applause] across europe, one of the things that needs to be borne in mind, all these so-called populist parties, none of them are quite ever able to get them -- an actual majority. they get second at one third and the secret of their power is not democracy, not to win elections, but to manipulate the political process, many believe the media process and to use and break institutions to take over courts, to craft media, in order to exert power in anti-democratic ways. that is what donald trump has been doing in the u.s., slowly corroding institutions, he is not a popular figure, populism is not popular. populism is the art of dividing the country and excluding much of the nation from the rest to justify the authority of some. we are here to talk about where the future is going and we are here, i am going to ask you for

a little bit of an act of faith, not just to wear but to think about with a mean. the sacrifice that earned them. we wear these to remember people at timesdered arms when things seemed a lot more hopeless than they do now. a lot more threatening and frightening than they do now. 1940, 1939. things seemed worse and the people we were apt -- we were up against seem toward dangerous and the forces of good seemed more divided that they prevailed and so will we. liberal democracy is stronger because acumen kindness and decency are stronger than they look area the cruel think the kinder week. they will discover that loyalty and patriotism, these are tremendous resources and they are going to begin to feel -- be felt more and more. five years of the losing hand for those that believe in the things that i do and i hope that many of you do. whatever our party identification, whatever you

call yourself, if you believe in free trade, free society, an executive that is accountable to the legislature, if you believe in honest government, the head of government should not steal and do business on the side and be beholden to vladimir putin, that is fine. but another dark moment, another great american president said history is recorded by who fired the first shot but in the end all that matters is who fires the last shot. the future belongs to people who cherish the future, not the people who are displaying it, the indifferent, not the people who know that -- what they are against, who can only tell you how to wreck, but to the people answers to the we face. that what the challenge is dealing with concentrated wealth, making sure that economies grow faster, environmental challenges, the

challenges of building ways that men and women can live together in terms of respect and equality. the answers will always beat the positives, something for always beat something dark. that is something i believe then you to- and i ask believe. i think we are going to see when all of this is done that the people who have done the right thing, will be able to look on their records with pride and the people who have done the wrong will not and the answers tonight on the other side of the line are heading to something that george bush called we call that the regard of discarded lives. i ask you to vote against the resolution but to vote on a better world, a world based on theal respect, not on degradation of some by others.

[applause] steve: that was very good, david. -- irrelevant. president trump identified himself as a nationalist. the media went to a meltdown. worldwidest movement is judged by their actions. we are not perfect, people are trying to figure this out but i will tell you one thing, the little guy, this is about the guy versus the elites. the little guy identifies with that whether it is an hungry or italy, brazil, the u.s. the future obviously belongs to the populace -- populism, it will be defined by left-wing populism or conservative and right-wing populism. is it about deconstructing the administrative state and opening

up the power of capitalism or about more state intervention in your life? because that is going to be the future. through theoing u.s. is against the bernie sanders and the cory booker's and elizabeth mourad -- elizabeth warren's and that aspect of the democratic party that grows in strength every day. the reality. the rest of it is just happy talk. spheres, thehe signal in the noise. look at the signal, look at the actions, look at how they are bringing people live in. look at the populist movement will reach out and take the economic nationalists and the bernie sanders movement. look at how we will go and accommodate and bring in one third of the african-american vote in our country, something the republican party or decades and a and decades talked about but never did. look at right now, i think it is 40% of hispanics agree with what trump is doing on the border because they understand the board -- burden of the solutions

of that. i am not saying trump is perfect, he would not say he is perfect. he is a very imperfect instrument. [laughter] steve: he might not say he is imperfect. i can understand david frustration -- david's frustration, i can understand the angst. as one of the senior public , look at the 16 people that ran against president trump in 2016 or 14. they were the flower of a generation of donor money, heritage, cato, holsinger, of all of them and look at the quality of the people, jeb bush, governor christie, ted cruz, everyone had their best person. thes the strongest field in history of the republican party and donald trump cut through that. he talked about trade, he talked

about this radical idea, free trade, particularly when you are going against a totalitarian society like china. he talked about the deindustrialization of the country. he talked about where people's lives are, he talked about what mattered. that is why he won. hillarywhy he beat clinton. our hurl thing was to compare and contrast, she is the guardian of a corrupt and incompetent elite, a permanent political class area -- class. [applause] steve: somehow i see i am not quite connecting. [laughter] this is the future and i realize david try to demonize this. it is not racist or cynical. the deplorable's are the finest people. of the civil war,

great depression, world war ii, now the fourth turning. everyone hundred years has happens because of generational history. the movie david was in with me. how you raise the generation. in the next 10, 15 or 20 years the united states will be the country where we -- or it'll be something totally different. the backbone of our country, america is not an idea, it is a nation. we have the greatest land and the greatest resources. we have constitutions and declaration of independence. that is not our strength. our strength is deplorable's. just like in canada, it is the little guy. the backbone of the populist movement. they are not racist. it is citizens of the greatest country in mankind's history. they, not on all, not steve been in, not mike pence, they will lead us through.

-- not donald trump, not steve bannon, not mike pence, they will lead us through. [applause] >> absolutely superb debate. i want to start with a few thank you's. thank you to this audience. on behalf of both debaters, you were engaged, you were civil, for the most part, more importantly i think we have done something. we have shown that toronto is capable of coming together to discuss difficult, contentious ideas in a way that informs and engages all of us. [applause] >> bravo. . next, i think we owe our debaters a thank you. [applause] >> opinions may or may not have

been changed, but both of you talked across the moral and intellectual and ideological divide in our society and that is something that does not happen enough. in it is a credit to the series that will you were able to make that happen tonight. so, thank you. [applause] >> this was a challenging debate for everybody. organizations i want to single out. first, the roy thomson hall corporation. this was not for -- not easy for this corporation. he stood up for free speech, they made this debate happen. [applause] >> finally, it goes without saying that unfortunately there was a demonstration tonight. i understand even one police officer was injured. on behalf of all of us we think that toronto police services for everything they have done.

[applause] >> absolutely superb. ok, we are now going to get to the point of tonight where we vote on the resolution for a second time to figure out how opinion has changed in this room as a result of the last hour and 40 minutes of captivating debate. andll open the question now we are going to allow you to use your clickers. if you are in favor of the westernthe future of politics is populist not liberal, a or one. if you are opposed or against b.ss to owo or luscious remember where it started at the beginning of tonight. if we can get those numbers up

on the screen to see where we all started off. i think it was 28% in favor of the motion, 72% opposed. we will get those numbers up in a moment. we had a fairly large group of view in the hall was said you could change her mind. of peoplever 50% thought they could change their mind. let's close it on the resolution now. we will give it a few moments to tabulate and then we will find out a really important live vote at this moment -- moment, how has opinion shifted in this hall. can we see those results now. [laughter] somebody is having -- there we are. 57% yes. [applause]

no.3%, pretty decisive results. congratulations. shake each other's hands. [applause] >> that is it for tonight. we will do this all again in the spring. have a safe evening on your way out. c-span's washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. up thursday, thanksgiving morning, we are getting reaction to the question, what did the americas -- what is america's role in the world? c-span'so watch washington journal live at 7:00 eastern thursday morning. join the discussion.

coming up thanksgiving weekend on the c-span networks. on c-span thursday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, supreme court justice followed by chief justice john roberts friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. chris christie and others discuss the opioid epidemic. saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, photojournalists talk about their favorite photographs taken on the campaign trail. sunday at 6:30 p.m. eastern, gun laws. thursday at 8:30 p.m. eastern, retired general talks about 13 great leaders. friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on afterwards, political writer. saturday at it :00 p.m. eastern, pulitzer prize winner war photographer talks about photos she has taken in the middle east. sunday at 9:00 p.m. on afterwards, pulitzer onze-winning journalist

american history tv on c-span three thursday at 5:30 p.m. eastern. on american artifacts, celebrating the first english thanksgiving at berkeley, virginia near jamestown. p.m. on the30 presidency, reflections on former first lady barbara bush. saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, how the pilgrims became part of america's founding story. and sunday at 9:00 a.m., talkitutional scholars about how the u.s. constitution defines impeachable offenses for the president. thanksgiving weekend on the c-span network. >> when the new congress starts in january, there will be more than 100 new house and senate members. democrats will control the house, the republicans, the senate. new congress, new leaders. watch the process unfold on c-span.

presidentormer vice cheney and former defense secretary leon panetta discuss national security, bipartisanship and civil discourse in politics. the university hosted the hour-long event. >> good evening and welcome. parte here this evening as of the event. for those of you who have not heard about congressman john and the foundation, the congressman exemplified,ho sacrificed civic duty and .ourage things that are very important in this day of remembrance and for the students here, what d