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tv   January 6 Hearings Sixth Hearing on U.S. Capitol Attack  CSPAN  June 28, 2022 1:01pm-3:01pm EDT

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>> the select committee will be in order. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare the committee and recess at any point. pursuant to regulation 10, the chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during this hearing. good afternoon. in our hearings over the previous weeks, the select committee has laid out details of a multipart campaign driven by the former president, aimed at overturning the results of the 2020 presidential election,
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and blocking the transfer of power. we have shown this effort was based on a lie. a lie that the election was stolen. tainted by widespread fraud that donald trump -- tainted by widespread fraud, donald trump's big lie. donald trump summons arm mob his boomers to washington, spurred them to march on the capitol, and failed to take meaningful action to quell the violence, as it was unfolding on january 6. however, in recent days, the committee has obtained new information dealing with what was going on in the white house on january 6. and in the days prior. specific, detailed information about what the former president and his top aides were doing and saying in those critical hours.
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as the threat for violence became clear. and indeed violence ultimately descended on the capital, in the attack on american democracy. it is important that the american people here that information immediately. that is why in consultation with the vice chair, i have recalled the committee for today's hearing. as you have seen and heard in our earlier hearings, the select committee has developed a massive body of evidence, thanks to the many hundreds of witnesses, who have voluntarily provided information relevant to our investigation. it has not always been easy to get that information, because the same people who drove the former president's pressure campaign to overturn the election are now trying to cover up the truth about january 6. but thanks to the courage of
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certain individuals, the truth will not be buried. the american people will not be left in the dark. our witness today, ms. hutchinson, has embodied that courage. i will get into a lot of detail about her testimony. i will allow her words to speak for themselves. and i hope everyone at home will listen very closely. first i recognize are distinguished vice chair -- our distinguished vice chair for any opening statements you would care to offer. >> thank you very much. in our first five hearings, the committee has heard from a significant number of republicans. including former trump administration justice department officials, trump campaign officials, several members of his white house staff, prominent conservative judge, and several others. today's witness is another republican, and another former member of president trump's
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white house staff. certain of us in the house of representatives recall ms. hutchinson once worked for steve scalise, but she is also a familiar face on capitol hill. because she held a prominent role in the white house legislative affairs office. and later was the principal aide to president trump's chief of staff, mark meadows. she spent considerable time up here on capitol hill, representing the trump administration. and we welcome her back. up until now, our hearings have each been organized to address specific elements of president trump's planned overturn the 2020 election. today we are departing somewhat from that model. because ms. hutchinson's testimony touches on several important and crosscutting topics, topics that are relevant to each of our future hearings. in her role working for the white house chief of staff, she handled a vast number of sensitive issues.
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she worked in the west wing several steps down the hall from the overall office -- from the oval office. she spoke daily with members of congress and high-ranking officials in the administration, with senior white house staff, including mr. meadows. with white house counsel, lawyers, and mr. tony arnoldo, who served as the white house deputy chief of staff. she also worked on a daily basis with members of the secret service posted in the white house. in short, she was in a position to know a great deal about the happenings in the trump white house. she has already set for for videotape interviews with committee investigators and we thank her very much for her cooperation and for her courage. we will cover certain but not all relevant topics within our knowledge today. our future hearings will supply greater detail, putting the testimony today in a broader and more complete context.
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today you will hear her relate certain first-hand observations of his conduct on january 6. you will also hear new information regarding the actions and statements of mr. trump's senior advisor's that day. including his chief of staff mark meadows and white house counsel. we will begin to examine evidence bearing on what president trump and members of the white house staff knew about the prospect for violence on 6. januaryeven before the violence began. to best communicate the information the committee has gathered, we will follow the practice of our recent hearings. playing videotaped testimony from ms. hutchinson and others. and also posing questions live. i yield back. >> thank you very much. our witness today is miss cassie hutchinson who served in the trump administration, in the white house office of legislative affairs from 2020.
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and as a special assistant to the president's white house chief of staff office from march 2020 through january 2021. i will now swear in our witness. the witness will please stand and raise her right hand. do you swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you. you may be seated. the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself or questions. i would like to start with a few questions about your background. these are some photographs we have obtained, highlighting a career. -- your career. these show you with members of congress, including steve
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scalise, as well as the white house, with lida, kevin mccarthy, and jim jordan. others show you with the president and members of congress, or air force one. before you worked in the white house, you worked on capitol hill for representative steve scalise. republican whip -- the republican whip. and senator ted cruz. than in 2019, you moved to the white house and served until the end of the term administration -- trump administration in 2020. when you started at the white house, you served in the office of legislative affairs. we understand you were initially hired as a staff assistant. but soon was promoted to a position of greater responsibility. can you explain your role for the committee -- with the committee -- can you explain your role for the committee? >> when mr. meadows became the
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fourth chief of staff, it is difficult to describe the day. i was special assistant to the president and advisor to the chief of staff. the days depended on what the president was doing that day and that is how my portfolio was reflected. had a lot of outreach with members of congress, senior cabinet officials. we would work on policy issues with relevant internal components and members on the hill. involving security protocols at the white house complex. >> he received another promotion in march of 2020. at that time you became the principal aid to any white house chief of staff, mark meadows. is that right? >> correct. what did a typical day look like for you and your work with mr. meadows? >> it varied with what was going on. we spent a lot of time on the hill.
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i was his liaison for capitol hill. we did a lot of presidential travel engagements. but mostly i was there to serve what the chief of staff needed. and often it was a reflection of what the president was scheduled to do that day. >> so it is fair to say that you spoke regularly in your position both with members of congress and with senior members of the trump administration? >> that's correct. >> would you say that in your work with mr. meadows, you were typically in contact with him and others in the white house throughout the day? >> that's correct. we were in contact almost pretty much throughout every day. consistently. >> although so much of grave importance happens in the west wing of the white house, it is quite a small building. above me on the screen, you can
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see a map of the first floor of the west wing of the white house. on the right, you can see the president's oval office. on the left, chief of staff's office suite. in the heart of the west wing was your desk, between the vice president's office and the oval office. ms. hutchinson, is this an accurate depiction of where you are located? >> it is accurate. a lot smaller than it looks. >> absolutely. this is a photo that shows the short distance between your office and the president's oval office. and it only takes five to 10 seconds or so to walk down the hall from your office to the oval office. is that right?
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>> that's correct. >> thank you. pursuant to the house resolution, the chair recognizes ms. cheney for questions. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. we will begin today with an exchange that first provided ms. hutchinson a tangible sense of the planning for the events of 6. januaryon january 2, four days before the attack, president trump's lead lawyer, mr. giuliani, was meeting with mark meadows and others. do you remember mr. giuliani meeting with mr. meadows on january 2, 2021? >> i do. he met with mr. meadows in the evening of january 2. >> we understand you walked mr. giuliani out of the white house that night. and he talked to you about january 6. what do you remember him saying?
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>> we were walking to his vehicle that evening. he looked at me and said something to the effect of, are you excited for the 6th? is going to be a great day. i remember looking at him saying, rudy, can you explain what is happening on the 6th? he had responded something to the effect of, we are going to the capitol, it's going to be great, the president is going to be there, he's going to look powerful. talk to the chief about it. he knows about it. >> and did you go back then up to the west wing and tell mr. meadows about your conversations with mr. giuliani? >> i did. after he had left the campus that evening, i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office on the couch, scrolling through his phone, leaning against the doorway, saying some interesting conversations -- rudy, mark, sounds like we are going to go to the capitol.
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he said something to the effect of, there is a lot going on, cass, but i don't know, things might get real bad on january 6. >> mr. meadows is engaged in litigation with the committee, to try to avoid testifying here. what was your reaction when he said to you things might get real, real bad? >> and the days before january 2, i was apprehensive about the 6th, i had her general plans for a rally. i had heard tentative movements to go to the capitol. but when hearing rudy's take on january 6, 10 mark's response -- and mark's response, that evening was the first moment that i remember feeling scared. and nervous for what could happen january 6. and i had a deeper concern for what was happening with the planning aspects of it.
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>> thank you. today we are going to be focusing primarily on the events of january 5 and 6 at the white house. to frame the discussion, i want to talk about a conversation you had with mr. radcliffe, the director of national intelligence. he had this conversation december of 2020. he was nominated by president trump to oversee u.s. intelligence -- the u.s. intelligence community. before his appointment, he was a republican member of congress. as you will see on this clip, the director comments in december of 2020. >> my understanding is a director did not want much to do.
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[indiscernible] that it wasn't something the white house should be pursuing. it felt dangerous for the president's legacy. he was concerned it could spiral out of control. and potentially be dangerous. either for democracy or the way the things were going the 6th. >> [indiscernible] >> to fight the results of the election. find missing ballots, pressuring. filing lawsuits in certain states. reaching out to state
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legislators. [indiscernible] he felt that there could be dangerous repercussions, in terms of precedent set for elections, for democracy. >> ms. hutchinson, now we are going to turn to certain information that was available before january 4. with the trump administration and the president knew about the potential for violence before january 6. on the screen, you will see in email -- an e-mail received by mr. donahue january 4, from the national security division of the department of justice. mr. donahue testified in our last week -- in our hearings last week. it depicts planning to "occupy federal buildings," and discussions of "invading the
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capitol building." here's what mr. donnie who said to us. >> we knew that if you had tens of thousands of people showing up in washington, d.c., that there was the potential for violence. >> secret service was looking at similar information, watching the plans demonstrations -- plan's demonstrations. their intelligence division sent several emails to white house personnel like tony or noto and robert engel, including certain materials listing events, like those on the screen. the white house continued to receive updates about planned demonstrations, including information regarding the the proud boys organizing and attending events january 6. although she has no detailed knowledge involving the proud boys, she did note this. >> i recall hearing the words
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"brodd boys -- "proud boys," closer to the planning of the rally. >> capitol police issued a special event notice. police noted the proud boys and other groups planned to be in washington, d.c. january 6. an indicated "unlike previous postelection protests, the targets of the pro-trump supporters are not necessarily the counter protesters, as they were previously, but rather congress itself is the target on the 6th." of course, we all know know that the proud boys showed up on january 6, marched from the washington monument to the
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capitol that day, and rioters occupied the capitol. i want to play a clip of one of our meetings when you described the call on january 4, that you received from robert o'brien, on the same topic, potential violence on january 6. >> i received a call from robert o'brien, that national security advisor. he had asked if he could speak with mr. meadows about potential violence that he was hearing about potentially happening on the hill on january 6. i asked if he had connected with tony, because he had a conversation with him, mark, about that topic. robert said, i will talk to tony. then i don't know if robert ever connected with mark about the issue. >> ms. hutchinson, can you
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describe to us tony's responsibilities as deputy chief of staff? >> the deputy chief of staff at the white house is arguably one of the most important positions somebody can hold. they are in charge of all security protocol for the campus and all presidential protect ees. anything that requires security for any individual that has presidential protection, for the chief of staff, or the national security advisor, as well as the vice president's team, too, tony would oversee all of that he was a conduit between white house staff and the secret service. >> thank you. he also describes a brief meeting between mr. or noto and mr. meadows and the potential for violence. the meeting was january 4. there were talking about the potential for violence january 6. let's listen to a clip of that testimony. >> remember mr. ornado had
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talked about intelligence reports. intel reports saying there potentially be violence on the sixth. >> you also told us about reports of violence and weapons of secret service were receiving the night of january 5, and throughout the day january 6. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> there are reports police and washington, d.c. arrested several people with firearms or ammunition's following a separate pro-trump rally the evening of january 5. are those are reports you recall hearing about? >> they are. >> of course, the world now knows the people who attacked the capitol january 6 had many different types of weapons. when a president speaks, the secret service typically requires those attending to pass through metal detectors, known as magnetometers, mags, for short.
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the select committee has learned that people who willingly entered the enclosed area for president trump's speech were screened, so they could attend the rally at the ellipse, they had weapons and other items that were confiscated, pepper spray, knives, brass knuckles, tasers, body armor, gas masks, batons, blondes weapons -- blunt weapons, and those are just the people that chose to go through the security, not the several 1000 members of the crowd who refused to go through the mags, and watched from the lawn near the washington monument. the select committee has learned about reports from outside the magnetometers. and has obtained police radio transmissions, identifying individuals with firearms, including ar-15's, near the ellipse on the number of 6. januarylet's listen. -- the morning of january 6. let's listen. >> white male, 6 feet tall,
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he's got long jeans, a jean jacket, within ar-15. -- with an ar-15. with about five to eight other individuals. two of these individuals in that group were wearing green fatigues. five a, 59, skinny. -- 5'8", 5'9", skinny. [indiscernible] >> weapon on his right hip. make sure petey knows they have an elevated break in the trees. look for the "don't tread on me" flag, face mask, cowboy
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boots, walking down the stage. >> [indiscernible] -- 4th st and independent. >> ar-15's at 14th and independence. as you saw in the emails, the first report we showed, we know it was sent the 8:00 hour january 6. it talks about people in the crowd wearing ballistic helmets and body armor carrying radio equipment and military grade backpacks. the second report we showed you on the screen was sent by the secret service in the 11:00 a.m. our addressing reports of a man with a rifle near the ellipse. ms. hutchinson, and prior testimony described for us to meeting in the white house around 10:00 a.m. january 6 and -- involving the chief of staff and tony ornado.
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>> i was. >> some of the weapons people had at the rally included oversized sticks or rifles. bear spray. is there anything else that you recall hearing about? >> i recall tony and i having a conversation with mark probably around 10:00 a.m., 10:15 a.m., we i remember tony mentioning knives, guns, rifles, bear spray, body armor, spears, etc. -- >> ms. hutchinson, here's a clip of your testimony regarding mr.
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meadows' response to learning the attendees were armed and that day. >> what was mark's reaction, to the weapons of people had in the crowd? >> when tony and i went in to talk to mark that morning, mark was sitting on his couch on his phone, something typical, these are the people outside right now, these are the weapons, and gave him a brief, a thorough explanation, and i remember distinctly mark not looking up from a -- from his phone. i remember finishing the explanation and it taking him a few seconds for him to say,
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"anything else?" still looking down at his phone. tony looks at me and i look at tony and tony said, no, sir, do you have any questions? what are you hearing? i looked at tony and said, we just told you what is happening at the rally. then he looked up and said, have you talked to the president? and tony said, yes, sir. all right, good. >> he asked tony if tony had informed the president and tony said yes, he had? >> is it your understanding that he told the president about weapons at the rally on the morning of january 6? >> that's what he really to me -- he relayed to me. >> this is how you characterize mr. meadows' general response one concerns were raised about what could happen january 6. >> at that time of the day,
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there were lots of public reports. [indiscernible] >> do not act on those concerns would be accurate. >> in the exchange, you mentioned he pulled it aside? >> correct. >> we are going to show text between you and the deputy chief of staff. these messages were exchanged while you were at the ellipse. in one text, you write the crowd looks good from this vantage point, as long as we get this shot, he was furious. it stresses president trump kept mentioning and off the
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record movement. -- an off the record movement. can you tell us in the text was furious? >> i was referring to the president. >> why was he furious, ms. hutchinson? >> was furious because he wanted the arena on the ellipse to be maxed out at capacity for all attendees. the team had relayed to him that everybody who wanted to come and had already come in, but he was still angry about the extra space and wanted more people to come in. >> did you go to the rally in the presidential motorcade? i was there, yes. in the motorcade. >> or you backstage with the president and other members of his staff and family? >> i was. >> you told us about particular comments you heard while in that area.
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>> when we were in the announced area tent behind the stage, he was very concerned about the shot -- the photograph we would get -- because the stage was not looking for. he said he wanted it to be full and for people not to feel excluded because they had come far for the rally. he thought the mags were at fault for not leading everybody in -- not letting everybody in. he wanted it full and he was angry that they were not letting people through the mags with weapons. when we were in the offstage tent, as part of the conversation, i was in the vicinity of a conversation where i overheard the president say something to the effect of, "i don't care that they have
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weapons, they are not here to hurt me, take the f'in mags away, let the people in." >> is that your understanding the president wanted to take the mags away and said the armed individuals were not there to hurt them? >> that is a fair assessment. >> the issue was not the amount of space available in the official rally area. only. but instead that people do not want to go through the mags. let's listen to a portion of what you told us about. >> -- told us about that. >> it was not the capacity of our space, that is what tony had been whirling to him that morning, it is not the issues around the space, they don't want to commend right now, they have weapons, they don't want them confiscated by secret service.
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they want to march straight to the capitol from the mall. >> the president apparently wanted all attendees inside the official rally space and repeatedly said "they are not here to hurt me." just to be clear, he was told again in that conversation -- was he told again and that conversation that people couldn't come through the mags because they had weapons? >> correct. >> and his response was to say they can march to the capitol from the ellipse. >> something to the effect of "i don't care that they have weapons, they are not here to hurt me, take the f'in mags away, and they can march to the capitol." >> what we so when those clips
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were playing were photos showing the president before his speech on the ellipse. you were in some of those photos as well. i just want to confirm that is when you heard the president say the people there with weapons were not there to hurt him and he wanted the secret service to remove the magnetometers. >> that is correct. we were standing towards the front of the tent with the tv's really close to where he would walk out to going to the stage. these conversations happened to-three minutes before he took the stage that morning. -- 2-3 conversations before he took the stage that morning. >> president trump was aware a number of the individuals in the crowd had weapons and were wearing body armor. here's what president trump instructed the crowd to do. >> we are going to walk down and i will be there with you, we are going to walk down -- we are going to walk down, anyone you want, but i think right here, we
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are going to walk down to the capitol. >> and the crowd as we know did proceed to the capitol. it soon became apparent to the secret service, including the service secret team in the crowd, the security at the capitol would not be sufficient. >> i had phone conversations with tony at the ellipse and i had four with mr. meadows, in detail with me, and other individuals -- in one conversation, they called me and said the chief knows they are marching to the capitol. >> when you said they were
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having trouble stacking bodies, that you mean law enforcement, the capital needed more people to defend the capital from the rioters? >> was becoming clear that capitol police were getting overrun. and they were having -- they were short of people to defend the building against the rioters. >> you mentioned tony was conveying this to you because he wanted you to tell mr. meadows. did you tell mr. meadows that people were getting closer to the capitol? that police was having difficulty? >> after i had the conversations with mr. meadows -- with tony, i want to have the conversations with mr. meadows. he was in a secure vehicle at the time making a call. when i went over to the car, i went over to the door to let him know, and he immediately shut it. i don't know who he was speaking
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with. it wasn't something he regularly did. especially when i would go over to give him information. so the bit -- so i was a bit taken aback. but i didn't think much of it. i thought i would be able to have a conversation with him a few moments later. >> were you able to have that conversation a few moments later? >> probably about 20-25 minutes later. there was another period in between where he shut the door again and once he got out of the vehicle, we had the conversation. there was information he should've made me aware of. >> when you finally were able to give mr. meadows the information about the violence at the capitol, what was his reaction? >> he almost had a lack of reaction. i remember him saying, all
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right, something to the effect of, "how much longer does the president have left in his speech?" >> again, much of this information about the potential for violence was known or learned before the onset of the violence, early enough former president trump to take steps to prevent it. he could for example have urged the crowd not to march to the capitol, he could've condemned the violence immediately or taking multiple other steps -- taken multiple other steps. but as we will see today, president trump had something else in mind. miss hutchinson, were you aware of concerns white house counsel had about the language president trump used in his ellipse speech? >> there are many -- were many discussions about the rhetoric of the speech that day.
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in my conversations with mr. hirschman, he had relate -- he had relayed that we would be foolish to include language that had been included at the president's requests, which headlines to the effective -- had lines to the effect of, we are going to march to the capitol, i'm going to be there with you, fight for me, fight for what we are doing, fight for the movement. things about the vice president at the time, too. counsel were urging the speechwriters to not include that language for legal concerns and also for the politics of what it could portray the president wanting to do that day. >> we just heard that the president said he would be with his supporters as they marched to the capitol, even though he did not end up going, he certainly wanted to. some questioned whether
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president trump genuinely planned to come here to the capitol on january 6. in his book, mark meadows falsely wrote after he gave his speech january 6, he told mr. meadows that he was "speaking metaphorically" about the walk to the capitol. as you will see, he was not speaking metaphorically. as we heard earlier, rudy giuliani told ms. hutchinson mr. trump tentative travel to the capitol january 6. i want to pause for a moment to ask you to explain some of the terminology you will hear today. we've heard you use two different terms to describe plans for the president's movement to the capitol or anywhere else, one of them is a scheduled movement and another one is otr --could you describe to us what each of those mean? >> is scheduled presidential movement is on his official schedule. it is notified to the press and to a wide range of staff that
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will be traveling with him. it is known to the publicm not to secret service --known to the public, known to secret service, they are able to plan in advance. and off the record movement is confined to the knowledge of a very small group of advisors and staff, typically small group would travel with him, mostly just included in the national security package. you can pull and off the record movement together in less than an hour. it is a way to circumvent having to release it to the press. if that is the goal of it. or to not have as many security parameters put in place ahead of time. to make the movement happen. >> thank you. let's turn back now to the president's plans to travel to the capitol january 6. maloney was concerned about the applications of such a trip and
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agreed with the sucre service that it shouldn't happen. ms. hutchinson, did you have any conversations with maloney about his concerns about the president going to the capitol january 6? >> the third, he approached me knowing mark had raised the prospect of going up to the capitol january 6. we had a brief, private conversation, where he said to me, "we need to make sure this does not happen, this would be legally a terrible idea for us, we have serious legal concerns of we go up to the capitol that day." he then urged me to continue relaying that to mr. meadows. because it is my understanding that he thought he was indeed pushing this along with the president. >> and we understand that you also spoke to mr. cipollone on the morning of the sixth.
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as you were about to go to the rally on the ellipse. and he said something to you like, make sure the movements of the capitol does not happen. is that correct? >> that's correct. i spoke with him before we walked out that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, "please make sure we do not go up to the capitol, cassidy, keep in touch with me, we are going to get charts with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen." >> do you remember which crime he was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the sixth, potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> let us hear about some of those concerns, that you mentioned earlier in one of your interviews with us. >> having private conversations
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late in the afternoon the third or the fourth, he was concerned it would look like they were obstructing justice, or obstructing the electoral college count. i apologize for probably not being very direct with legal terms here -- but obstructing what was happening on capitol hill or it looked, like we were inciting or encouraging a riot at the capitol. >> in fact, in the days before january 6 and on the day itself, mr. trump expressed multiple aides he wanted to go to the capitol after his speech. here's what various aides have told the committee about the president's desire to go to the capitol. >> did the president tell you that? that he wanted to speak at the capitol?
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>> correct. yes. >> did the idea of the president proceeding or walking to the capitol after his speech come up? >> walking to the capitol? no. >> driving to the capitol? >> it came up. >> what was discussed? >> he said, i want to go down to the capitol. >> what about him marching january 6? >> yes. >> tell us about that. >> it is kind of a general thing , i was aware of the desire of the president to potentially march to the -- or accompany the rally attendees to the capitol. >> when did you first hear about this idea of the president accompanying them on the sixth?
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>> this is after he finished his remarks. >> when the president said he would be going to the capitol, secret service scrambled to find a way for him to go. we know this from witnesses and the secret service. also from messages amongst staff on the president's national security council. staff or monitoring the situation in real time. you can see how the situation evolved, and the following chat logs the committee has obtained. as you can see, staff believed the president was "going to the capitol," and "finding the best right now -- and "they are finding the best route now." they learned about the attack in real time. one president trump left the stage at 1:10, staff and you the rioters -- the staff knew the
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rioters had invaded the stage and police were calling for all available officers to respond. when republican leader kevin mccarthy heard the president say he was going to the capitol, he called you, miss hutchinson. isn't that right? >> that's correct. >> and in this text message, you told tony, "mccarthy just called me, too, do you guys think you are coming to my office?" tell us about the call that day with leader mccarthy during the president's speech on the ellipse. >> i was still in the tent behind the stage. when you are behind the stage, you can't really hear what is going on in front of you. so mr. mccarthy called me with this information. i the call and he sounded rushed -- i answered the call, and he sounded rushed and angry at me,
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i was confused, because i did not know what the president had just said. he then explained, the president just that he is marching to the capitol, you told me this whole week that you are not coming up here, why would you lie to me? i said, i wasn't lying to you, sir, we are not going to the capitol. and he said, he just set it on stage, cassidy, figure it out, do not come up here. i said, i will assure you we are noo the capitol, we have already made that decision. he pressed a little bit more, believing me, but frustrated that the president had said that. and we entered the phone conversation after that. i called tony to reconfirm that we were not going to the capitol, which was also in our text messages. i sent esther mccarthy another text, -- i sent to mr. mccarthy another text with the affirmative that
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we were not going up to the capitol and he did not respond after that. >> we understand the plans for the president going to the capitol had included discussions at some point about what the president would do when he came up to the capitol january 6. let's look at a clip of one of your interviews discussing that issue with the committee. >> you were talking about a scheduled movement. [indiscernible] -- the president to when he got here? >> no, not that i can specifically remember. i remember hearing ideas, discussed with mark and scott perry, mark and rudy giuliani, i don't know which conversations were elevated to the president. i don't know what he originally wanted to do when he went to the capitol that day.
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i know that there were talks about him having another speech before going in. there was a conversation about him going into the house chamber at one point. >> as we have all just heard, in the days leading up to january 6, on the day of the speech, both before and during, and after the rally speech, president trump was pushing his staff to arrange for him to come up here to the capitol during the electoral vote count. let us turn now to what happened in the president's vehicle when the secret service told him he would not be going to the capitol after his speech. first, here's the president's's motorcade leaving the ellipse after the speech january 6.
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>> when you returned to the white house and the motorcade after the president's speech, where did you go? >> when i returned to the white house, i walked up toward the chief of staff's office and i noticed him lingering outside of the office, once we made eye contact, he quickly waved me to go into his office just across the hall from mine. when i went in, he shut the door. i noticed the head of mr. trump's security detail sitting in a chair, looking somewhat discombobulated, a little lost. i looked at tony, he said, did you hear what happened? i said, no, tony, i just got back, what happened? tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in, he
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was under the impression that the off the record movement to the capitol was still possible and likely to happen. but that he had more information. as the president had gotten into the vehicle with bobby, he thought they were going up to the capitol when bobby relate to him that we are not, we do have the assets to do it, it is not secure, we are going back to the west wing, the president had a very strong and very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of "i am the f'in president, take me up to the capitol now," to which bobby replied, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up to the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engels grabbed his arm,
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said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel, we are going back to the west wing, we are not going to the capitol." mr. trump then used his free hand to launch toward bobby engel, when tony recounted the story towards me, he aimed toward his clavicle. >> was mr. engel in the room when he was telling the story? >> he was. >> did he disagree with any part of the story? >> he did not correct or disagree with any part of his story. >> did they ever act on that and tell you that what he had just said was untrue? >> neither of them told me ever that it was untrue. >> and despite this altercation, this physical altercation during the ride back to the white
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house, president trump still demanded to go to the capitol. here is what kayleigh mcenany, the white house press secretary at the time, wrote in her personal notes and told the committee about prison trump's desire to go to the capital after returning to the white house. >> when you wanted to walk to the capitol, was that based solely on what this president said during his speech or what anybody else afterwards? >> to my recollection, i believe when we got back to the white house, he said he wanted specifically to walk with the marchers, according to my notes, he then said he would be fine with just riding with me. but to my recollection, he wanted to be part of the margin some form or fashion. >> for the record, [indiscernible] >> yes. >> we understand he blamed mark
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meadows for not going to the capitol that day. >> prior to leaving the rally site, when he got off the stage, and everybody was making the movement back to the motorcade, i overheard mr. meadows say to him then, as i had prior to trump taking the stage that morning, that he was still working on getting an off the record movement to the capitol. mr. trump took the stage, he was under the impression by mr. meadows that it was still possible. when he got off the stage, i had relayed to mr. meadows that i had another conversation with tony, that it was still not possible. mr. meadows said, ok. as they proceeded to go to the motorcade, and mr. meadows reiterated, we are going to talk to bobby, bobby has more information, trump got into the
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vehicle, and after we all arrived back at the white house later in the day, it was relayed to me via mark the president was not happy that bobby did not pull off for him and mark did not work hard enough to get the movement on the books. >> the physical altercation ms. hutchinson described in the presidential vehicle was not the first time that the president had become very angry about issues relating to the election. on december 1, 2020, attorney general barr said the department of justice -- if the department adjusted had not found evidence of widespread election fraud, sufficient to change the outcome of the election, ms. hutchinson, had to the present react to hearing that news -- how did the present react to hearing that news? >> around the time that i understand the ap article went live, i remember hearing noise coming from down the hallway, so i poked my head out of the office and saw the ballet
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walking towards our office. he had said, "but the chief down to the dining room, the president wants him." so mark went on to the dining room and came back to the office a few minutes later. after mark returned, i left the office and went down to the dining room. and i noticed the door was propped open. they were changing the tablecloth off the dining room table. emotions for me to come in. and then pointed towards the front of the room, near the fireplace mantle and the tv, where i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. they articulated the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's ap interview. and had thrown his lunch against the wall. which was causing them to have
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to clean up. i grabbed a towel and started wiping the catch up off the wall to help him out, and he said something to the effect of, he was really ticked off about this, i would stay clear of him right now. >> was this the only incident in which the president -- president through dishes? >> it was not. >> whether other incidents where you recall he expressed anger? >> there were other times where he through dishes or throwing a table cloth where things go to the floor in the break. rep. cheney: general barr described to the committee the president angry reaction when he
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finally met with president trump. >> said, i know that you are dissatisfied with me and i am glad to offer my resignation and he pounded the table and said accept it. rep. cheney: deserve. chair. thompson: chairwoman reserves. we ask that you remain seated until the capitol police have escorted the witness of -- out of the room. you will have a. -- we will have a period of he says for approximately 10 minutes. -- tests -- recess for approximately 10 minutes.
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[applause] >> the january sixth meeting has
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gone to recess. -- dean hutchison, ms. hutchison provided videotaped testimony which the committee has used in previous periods. if you missed any part of the hearing, we will be showing it in its entirely at 9 p.m. eastern on c-span. the committee will reserve -- hearing will resume shortly.
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>> fact that he knew that they weren't dangerous -- the fact that he was trying to get to the capital to leave them to the capital tells you that his desk the president had insurrection -- tells you that the president had insurrection on his mind. that is what happen next and where is merrick garland. >> what you think about him denying the allegation? >> -- we can see who is more important to tell the truth. she will go under of an they will not go -- under alt and
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they will not go under of -- under oath and they will not go under old --oth. thank you. >> january 6 committee under a sort -- a short break. we will show the hearing again
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in its entirely. that will be at 8 p.m. eastern and we will hearing on c-span -- people see it on c-span. -- we will see it on c-span. bail hearing is expected to resume shortly. -- these hearing -- the hearing is expected to begin early. --shortly.
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>> members today focusing on testimony from cassidy hutchison . she is a former aid from white house chief of staff mark meadows. all of c-span's program -- programming is brought as a public service by these television companies including dish network and well --wow. you can continue watching the hearing on the go on c-span now.
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congressional speeches and hearing and congresses -- conferences all available wherever you get your apps -- on c-span now wherever you get your apps.
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rep. thompson: the committee will be in order. the chair recognizes that gentlemen from wyoming -- gentlewoman from wyoming. rep. cheney: before return to what ms. hutchison saw and heard -- let's discuss certain communications white house chief of staff's -- metals had on january 6. roger stone attended rallies during the afternoon and evening of january 6 in washington dc. on january 5 and six, mr. stone was photographed with multiple members of the of teachers -- of the both teacher -- of the oath keepers.
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multiple members of that organization will charged with or played guilty to crimes related to january 6. mr. talk -- general michael flynn has also taken the bit before this committee. mr. stone previously had been convicted of other federal clients -- crimes unrelated to january 6. general flynn has pleaded guilty to a federal charge also unrelated to january 6. president trump writing general flynn weeks after the presidential election and on july of 2020, he commuted the sentence roger stone was to serve. the night before january 6, president trump instructed his chief of staff, mark meadows, to contact both roger stone and michael flynn regarding what would play out the next day.
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this hutchison, is it your understanding that president trump asked mark middle speak with roger stone and general flynn january 5? ms. hutchinson: that is my understanding. i am under the impression that mr. meadows completed both called to them on the evening of the fifth. rep. cheney: do you know what they talked about that evening? ms. hutchinson: not sure. rep. cheney: -- war room at the willard hotel? ms. hutchinson: i was aware of that. rep. cheney: do you know mr. meadows ever intended to go to the hotel on that night? ms. hutchinson: he had a conversation with me where he wanted to work with the secret
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service -- with mr. giuliani in the associates in the war room. rep. cheney: what was your view on that on whether mr. meadows should go or not? ms. hutchinson: i made it clear to him that i don't think it was a smart idea for him to go to the hotel. i was unsure on everything that was going on their although i knew enough that -- on everything mr. giuliani and his associates were pushing during this period. i did not think it was appropriate for the white house chief of staff to attend or involved in that. i made that clear to him. he mentioned a few more times going to the hotel that evening and eventually dropped the subject the night of the bit and said he would dial in instead. rep. cheney: general flynn has
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appeared before this committee and when he appeared, he took the fifth. let's view a clip of general michael flynn taking the fifth amendment. >> do you believe the violence on january was justified? -- january 6 was justified? yes. >> could you are a peep question please? -- repeat the question? rep. cheney: do you believe the violence was justified? i am asking both.
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>> i plead the fifth. rep. cheney: you believe the balance on january 6 was justified morally? -- the violence on january 6 was justified morally? >> i plead the fifth. rep. cheney: do you believe the violence on january 6 was justified legally? >> the fit. rep. cheney: do you believe the balance of power was justified -- transfer other -- power is justified in america? >> the fifth. rep. cheney: are context and this clip you describe the timeframe starting at 2 p.m..
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>> was at his office for quite some time -- mark was at his office for quite some time -- i don't doubt that he had gone in but i remember him being gone for most of the after new. -- after no. -- afternoon. we were watching the tv and accuracy the rioters were closer to the capital. he hadn't said anything about it and i went to his office and saw he was sitting on his couch on his cell phone and he was calling and typing --ng typing -- and typing. you can see it but i didn't know
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he was paying attention. he goes, yeah. -- still looking at his phone. i start to get frustrated because i felt like i was watching -- a bad car accident about to happen where you cannot stop it but if you want to be able to do something and i remember thinking in that moment mark needs to snap out of it and i don't know how to snap them out. he needs to clear and i blurted out, do you know where jim is out and he looked up at me and said, jeff? -- yes.
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do you know where he is at? he said i hadn't heard for -- from him. i say that you might want to check in. the rioters are getting close and they might get in. he sd something to be upset -- effective i will give him a call -- theffect i will give him a call. rep. chene you describe what happened to pass it along --pat -- >> i see him barreling down the hallway towards our office and he rtured and look at me and said his mark inis office and he said yes -- i said yes. he shook his head and open mark's's and stood there at the door open and mark was sitting on his phone and i remember tax
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same to him something to the fect of the rioters have got into the cital and we need to go see the president n and rk looked up and said he doesn'want to do anything and pat said somhing to the effect of and very clearly said said this to mark -- mark, something needs to be done or people -- are goingo die in the blood will be on your effing hands. mark got off his phone and left his phone on my desk and said let me know if jim calls and they walked out of the dime -- and they walked out of the room. a couple minutes later, likely
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around between 2:15 -- 225. -- 2:25. jim called and i answer the phone and it said one second and i guess he knew it was me and i introduced myself and i don't rember if he call myself or someone else but -- he says ok and i went down and i asked the valet if mark was in the dinin room and he said yes and i opened the door to the van will -- dining room and briefly stepped in to get mark's attention and i showed him the phone and flipped the phone's wake to see who it was. back so i was
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two feet from mark and he was standing in the doorway to the oval office room. they had a brief conversation and in the crossfire i heard in the background, i heard conversations in the old dining room at that point talking about the hang mike pence chance. --chamt. rep. cheney: backlit ended that you heard -- with what you heard -- that's clip ended with what you heard. you describe what happened next. ms. hutchinson: i went back to my desk and a couple minutes later him and pat came back and maybe another desk eric person was there -- and eric person was there but i am confident he was
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there. i remember pat saying something to the effect of mark, you need to do something the -- more. they are calling for the vice president to be effing h -- hung. -- we need to be doing something more. mark had said something to the effect of a don't think they are doing anything wrong. knowing what i had heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the hang of mike pence chance in the lobby of our office, i understood there to be the rioters at the capital that were chanting for the vice present toe hung. rep. cheney: let me pause at
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this point. the rioters chanted hang mike pence. the president of the united states, donald trump, said that, lls, me desees it d that rioter correspoencondemning them, the former presint commanded them -- defended them. >> it is common sense that you are supposed to protect -- if you know april is fraudulent, how can you pass on a fudulen to congress? rep. cney:resident viewed th the writers were not doing anything wrong.
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also to understand why the president did not ask the rioters to leave the capital for multiple hours. he put this tweet out at 2:24 p.m. ms. hutchison, do you recall seng thisetween -- this tweet? ms. hutchins: i do. rep. cheney: what was your reaction? ms. hutchinson: as a staffer that worked to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things he has done for the country, i remember feeling frustrated, disappointed and it felt personal. it was said. --sad.
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as an american, i was disgusted. it was unpatriotic and un-american and we were watching the capitol building get defaced over a life --lie and it was hard in that moment to digest knowing what i had been hearing down the hall and the conversations, seeing that sweet coming up and knowing what was happening onhe hill. struggle twork through the emotions of that. rep. cheney: we he spok to other ite house staff about thr staff to donald trump's ite coemning mike pence for not havi the courage to
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condemn the electoral votes. matthew passenger served in the white house for four years including as deputy national security advisor andas in bed big city the mobile office at various points throughout the day and when he saw this week, he decided to resign his position. let's watc him describe hi reaction. >> one of my staff broug me -- print out of eight suite --a t weet by the president and the tweet had something of the effect thatevices president in happy couge to do what should have been done did not have encouraged to do what should have been done will stop i read at sweet -- been done. i have read this week's and made the decision to resign.
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i knew i was leaving that day was i read it. -- once i read it. rep. cheney: several people resign as well. here is secretary devos's resignation letter. in resign on january 6, secretary devos said that, quote, " there is no mistaking the empire of your words had -- impacts your words had" -- as i am sure is the case with many of you, this is troubled me in a way that i cannot satisfy". we have asked you about what the presidential advisers were urging him to do during the
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attack. you describe three dferent caps off thoughts. can you tell us about those? ms. hutchinson: there groups that were strongly urging him to take immediate action. mr. ivanka trump in that category of -- miss vodka -- about ivanka trump in that category of pleading him to take action. there was a neutral group where advisors were trying to tell the line, knowing that president trump didn't want to take immediate action and condemn the rights --riots. they needed it to be done in there was the last group that was stuck letting blame -- was deflecting blame.
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it is my understanding that mr. meadows was in the deflecting catery but he was seeking a neutral rest knowinghat there were several advisors urging him to take more action. it was reflected in the rhetoric released later that day. rep. cheney: you taught us that the white house office was in the camp encouraging the president to tell the rioters to stop the attack. >> white house counselffice when it him to condemn the rioters. i am confident in that. rep. cheney: let's look at one example at what advisors were urging. could you look at the exhibit that we are showing on the screen now? have you seen this note before? ms. hutchinson: i wrote that
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note at the direction of the chief of staff at january 6 around 3:00 time -- 3:00. >> that isour handwriting? ms. hutchinson: that is my handwriting. rep. cheney: why did you write it? ms. hutchinson: the chief of staff was in a meeting with othe and they rushed out of the office and mark handed me the note card with one of his pant and dictating a statement for the president to potentially put out. there were two phrases -- a bear. one was illegal and one was proper authority. the illegal phrase was something that was dictated to me will stop -- b. -- if the president had opted to put one of those statements out.
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he got from the oval dining room and put the car on my desk with illegal crossed out and said didn'need to take further action on that statement. p. cheney: to your knowledge, this statement was never issued. ms. hutchinson: to my knowledge. rep. cheney: did you understand me ivanka trump en it her father to send people home? ms. hutchinson: that is my understanding. rep. cheney: let's play a cliff. >> i remember her saying at this point, no. she wants her dad to send them home and told him to go home peacefully -- rep. cheney: you will hear more about this in our labor hearings
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-- clear appearance. here is some of that evidence. text messages sent to mark meadows during the attack. the president needs to tell people at the capitol to go home. the next message, this is hurting all of us and then he is destroying his legacy and playing into every stereotype and we lose all credibility against the blm and ansi live craft if things go south. the president's son don jr. urgently contacted mark meadows. he wrote, he has to condemn this shit asap. these are two examples of truck supporters and allies urging the president to tell his supporters to leave the capital.
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it will not -- would not have been hard for the prident to walk down to be meeting room. a reporter -- but harvey said he believed the attack was -- mccarthy said he believed the attack was -- >> i condemned the violence in the capital. what we are watching unfold is on america. i am disappointed and sad. this is out of the country should look like. this is not -- the first amdment. >> the cameras are higher 24/7. why has that he walked out and sa that now? >> conveyed to the president
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what i think is best to do. i am hopeful the president will do that. >> mike gallagher employ the president to call off the attack. -- implored the president to call attack. >> you are the only person who can call this off. call it off. the election is over. call it off. this is bigger than you. it is bigger than any member of congress. it is about the united states of america which is more important than any politician. call it off. it is over. rep. cheney: despite the fact that many people close to donald trump wererging him to send people home, he did not sue -- do so until much later. at 417 -- 4:17, donald trump
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told the rioters to go home and he let -- left out. -- left them. pres. trump: we have to have each -- peace. go home. you have seen the way others of -- have been treated. i knowow you feel. go home in peace. rep. cheney: asked we will show in greater detail, donald trump was reluctant to put this message out and he still could not bring himself to condemthe attack. ms. hutchison excellent as this. -- castel estes. -- has told us this. ms. hutchinson: i recall him being relucta to some of the video of the sixth of what
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involves -- i remember seeing the video go out. rep. cheney: on the ening of january 6 and the day after, the president's family and his senior staff and others try to encourage the president to condemn the violence and commit to peaceful transition of power. at 3:31 p.m. at january 6, sean hannity texas -- texted mark meadows. sean hannity, called -- quotes -- sean hannity sent another text to mark meadows. he shared a link to the suite. the suite reported --tweet reported --
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as you can see on the screen, 26 -- 25th amendment to the constitution creates the process of a transition of power if the president is on switch- unfit or unable to reserve -- sir. the committee has learned that this was being discussed by members of the cabinet. president trump supportersere worried. in addition to the suite that -- one him about what could hpen. we understanthat this text message sean hannity sent to -- no more stolen elections.
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second, impeachment and 25th amendment are real. many people will quit. . hutchison, y told us that you were heari about discussions related to the 25th amendment. here is part owhat you said. ms. hutchinson: mr. meadows was having -- and what i just spent understand it was more -- and what i understand, it was more of what i am hearing. we want you to be to -- aware of it. you are the chief of staff a -- conversations - you should be ready to take action on this. i am concerned with you and your positioning. reach out to me if you he questions or if can be helpful. rep. cheney: inside the white house,he predent advisors
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incling members of this mily wanted delivered -- these delivered to the country. -- delered by a pretaped video on january 7 when harriveat the white houson the senth, . elding believed thamore needed to be set so he started wring. shared the draft to someone who believed the president needed to say re. mr. pallone agree with th ncept ontext. the cmitteeas learned that the president did not agree t the draft and resisted givi a speech. do you rall discussions aut the president's speech on january 7? pplaus i do --ms. hutchinson:o -- i do.
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but from the conversations -- i learned from the conversations -- that trump didn't think he needed to do anything more on the seventh than what he had done. on the six. when he was convinced to put out a video on the seventh, i understand that he had a lot of opinions on what the context of that with detail. i had original drafts and there were several lines that didn't make it about prosecuting the rioters are calling them violence. -- violence. --violent. there was an increased emphasis of his mindset which was he did not think he did anything wrong.
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the people who did something wrong that day -- w mike pence not stding withim. rep. cheney: the preside's advisers urged him to give a spch. >> who convinced him to do the videon the seventh? ms. hutchinson: i am not sure who convinced him. >> who was in th group? ms. hutchinson: mark, about that, -- about the trump -- ivanka trump, jared kushner -- those are the people i am aware of. >> dyou know why tt group of people that it w necessary to release this statement? ms. hutchinson: from what i understood and from what the reports we coming in, there
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was a large concern of the 25th amendment being evoked and there were concerns or what would ppen in this -- in th senate. the primary reon i have heard other than we did not do enough on the sixth ande need to get a message out there to condemn them. the secondary reason was what would happen in the fina15 days of your presidency if you do not do this. rep. cney: the president devered the remas. unlike many of these other eecheshe did not ad lib.. he recited. even on january 7, the da after the attack, the presidentould not bring himsf to say, ",
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"this election inow or." did y hear mr. trumat one poinwent to add language about targeting thoswho to place -- part in the rights --riots? ms. hutchinson: i did hear that. >> said he was instructed not to include? who said that? ms. hutchinson: -- they said they did not think that was a good idea to include that. they encouraged him. >> is, did rudy giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6? ms. hutchinson: he did. p. cheney: did white house
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chieof sta mark meadows indicated that he was interested in reiving presidential pardon related to nuary ms. hutchinson: yes ma'am. rep. cheney: thank you. i yelled back. --yeild back. rep. thompson: wants to thank my witness. -- i want to thank my witness. objection, memrs wil be permitted 10 business ys to submit statements on the record, including opening remarks and additional questions to the witness. without objection, the chair recognizes the vice chair recognizes the vice chair for a closing statement. rep. cheney: also begin by thanking ms. hutchison for her testimony today. we are all in her death. our nation -- is preserved by those in their all caps --oaths.
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i once all americans to know that what ms. tchison has do today is not easy. the easy course is too hh from the otlight -- to hide from the spotlight and to deny what happened. that brings me to a different topic. while our committee has seen many witnesses, including many republicans testify fully and forthrhtly, this has not been true of every witness. we have received evidence of one particular practice that raises significant concern. our committee commonly asks witness is connected to mr. trump's administration or campaign, whether they have been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony.
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thout identifying any of the individuals involved, let me show you a couple examples of answers we seek to this question. first, here is how one witness described paul krause -- phone calls from people interested in the witnesses testimony. " but they said to me is as long as i am a team player, i am on the right team. am ptecting what i need to protect. i will continueo stay in good graces in trump's role and they have reminded me that trump's reads -- trump reads transcripts and keep that in mind." here is a another sample. this is a call received by one of our witnesses. " the person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow.
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heants me to let you kno tha they are thinking about you and he knows that youre loyal and you ll do the right thing. i think most americansnow that inuencing witnees to testif falsely raise concerns. i yield back. rep. thompson: the gentlewoman deals back. ms. hutchison, thank you for doing your patriotic duty helping the american people getting a plea -- complete understanding of january 6. thank you for your courage in testifying here today. you have gratitude of this committee and the country. i know it was not easy to sit he today and ansr the questions but after hearing testimy in a candor and
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detail, i wanto speak to the witness who have been out lives in -- outliers in our investigation. the small number that have divided us all right those whose memories have failed them again and again on the most important detas and to tho who fear daldrump a his enablers because of this urageo woman and others like her, your attempto hidthe true -- truth will fail. and to the rule of witnesses, if you heard this testimony today and you remember things you could previously recall, or there is some details you would like to clarify, or you discover some courage you had hidden away, our doors remain open. the celeste community -- the
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select committee will reconvene as we continue to relay findings. their chest -- the chair asked people to remain seated as the capitol police escorts the witness out of the world. wiout objection, the committee is adjourned.
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>> the committee has announced there will be more hearings in july.
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we will be showing this again in its entirety's night at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on c-span. tomorrow night, representative liz cheney will be speaking at the regular library. that is expected to get underway at 9:00 p.m. eastern. you can also watch on our free mobile app or online. today's january 6 committee hearing an all c-span programming is broht to you as a public servi by the cable industry and these cable companies. >> there are a lot of places to get political information, but only as c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you're from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, biased, word for
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