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tv   Doc Film - Europes Muslims - On the Road with Nazan Gokdemir and Hamed...  Deutsche Welle  October 8, 2017 9:15am-10:00am CEST

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team will have to work hard to avoid remaining in the opposition over a long term commitment to become capable of governing again. until the balun war has fallen in the minds of eastern and western germans it will still take you most of all is gone there are lots of differences west indies north and south young and old city and country rich and poor if we shouldn't keep speaking retrospectively of this wall in people's minds it's really not that bad despite all the differences island. involved contests that thank you very much for this talk you're welcome. russian alist are on the rise with morning glory to make your contract great again that is their slogan their focus put your nation first i am taking a trip to highlights different shades of nationalism and to find out what this nation mean to you. to share your story join the conversation here on to w unto itself on facebook.
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to get a five we're on a journey to see how you have smugglers live do muslims in belgium france and spain have the same problems and worries the same desires are europe's muslims the same everywhere are they able to reflect critically on islam where does this work especially well where doesn't it what are their fears do they have to fear exclusion and. on the may that's where the conflict is distinguishing between the ideology or religion and the people and that's what motivated me to go on this journey and. how men had a bad reputation for hating islam that shows that critics of islam aren't really welcome so you can end up in a dangerous place it's high time to eliminate this issue from the perspective of
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the people who can and not bashing islam but not islamic p.r. either. because we can't allow the right wing populists to be the only voices criticizing islam i don't think it's bad to doubt and criticize on the contrary. how muslims react to hunted in these tense times he's considered germany's toughest critic of his own. i only know him had from the media in two thousand and thirteen his murder was called for on egyptian television he's been under police protection ever since. it's hard for me to imagine what it means to live such a restricted life. i love how much it's nice to meet you again i see you're not alone.
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thank you but. do you always have a security detail and. yes. would you say your need for bodyguards is directly due to the fatwa that was issued against you whatever the cult because. it's due to several things that was the starting point people know the term because of selman rushdie. uses a fatwa is a religious opinion that justifies killing an apple states that's when it started with me people were calling for my murder and what happened after that was even worse. and it doesn't hurt you to be labeled an apostate i believe that if you dish it out you've got to be able to take it to. yourself i'm sticking to them as long as we're just hurling words at each other not stones then all's well i'm just people. like me and there's
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a turkish market right next door. we're going to go shopping the muslim way i like getting to know people maybe someone will recognize you does that frighten you why should it this hasn't made me scared of meeting people. it's ramadan right now isn't it yes it is. hello i have a question is do you fast yes yes yes i fast. is it really hard for you and preparing food no. it's not too hot it's hard but i'm used to it it's ok to sell food that's not a problem. no it's not. but if i were to buy a piece of board from you and eat it as a muslim then you've incited me to commit a sin you. know why because you tempted me with treats like these.
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myself things that's my job people decide for themselves if they want to buy them i fast for myself not for you we don't force anyone i can tell my son he has to fast but he makes that choice to do it not me. i might tell him once or twice but he has to decide to do it. why do many people misunderstand islam. i don't know we'd like to understand that there's always a reason it's all about money about politics yes and that's not just true for islam thanks have a good day. but i was. just saying that. we look at the star itself he jabs. chivas sister don't you want to return to god. you'd look much prettier if you wore a job. if i wanted to wear he jab or had to wear one i'd tell you quite
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differently. let's see. it was. you know the singer erykah badu yes she's got that gypsy style it would be frowned upon if you were the he job like that why because you have to cover the neck too if you want to follow islam correctly then yes does it say that in the qur'an yes yes how long have you been wearing the job since seventh grade it's your choice yes my choice no pressure . no my daughter did it without pressure to she really wanted to cover up i didn't make her i told her the seventh grade was actually too early and she wasn't ready for it i told her she. didn't know why she wanted to do it the teacher and said something was wrong that you wouldn't expect that you always think there's pressure from the home but in this case there's no pressure from home there was pressure from school and the students teased each other i know that from egypt. and so it's
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kinda funny for them to get women who don't wear a hijab on the street sometimes have the have pulled so hard it comes out so it's just it's a way of would you say you're a better muslim with a huge gap i think it comes from here not here for me it's here you don't have to prostrate yourself on a mat five times a day to pray if you've got bad thoughts running through your head nobody can tell me they're one hundred percent muslim and the way it's written in the koran. it's come about as a moment why do you think god wants you to behave this way. why not ask me the other way around why isn't it the case i don't know if i knew that i had to be much farther along god probably judge doesn't correctly i only know that. i've seen you on t.v.
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. and not me. just a locksmith. and. what it cost to copy a key like this depends which one would you like this one calls for euros. or euros and do you think the islamic way of life is compatible with the western way of life on the run. yes i think the things that exist in the west have already been around in islam for fourteen hundred years. pose a feeling that yet either. peace towards women peace among people we had fourteen hundred years ago this gives us hope for the feeling that yeah i was going to do it but there are differences in the west women are allowed to wear what they want they
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can love who they want and i. know that's different a believer has a law a book that says muslim women have to cover up. their own is supposed to show themselves to the husband so that does one's it's a good one you know only the husband wife says because it's just that way if you have a pretty woman walking around here. there was a pretty woman here just now and nothing happened that's all that negative that's not because something might happen anyone could look at this woman and then have bad thoughts in their head like she said you know that as long as you're saying that if the woman covers up she's protecting herself that's right yes that means i'm a danger to you yes yes yes what are you doing now you're drawing leaves men and. i've been walking around with her all day and i haven't had a stupid idea yet how does that work. being. an example if you have
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a wife who's a bit ugly if you see a pretty a woman somewhere what happens back home and there's a man you lose interest in you know. you're thinking about this other pretty woman instead who says no i don't think like that i'm a man who say that are lying this is i know i'm an old man like pretty women sure she carries herself up to protect herself from bad things. what else should she do . thanks. he's admitted that men are weak sex that they can't withstand the temptation and that's why it's a woman's job to cover up. because otherwise i could lead you into temptation and you can this isn't the first. i'm a danger to man. i take what he says seriously. i have
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to take it seriously women as a danger. he says his daughter should start wearing a hijab when she's seven and then properly at eleven he says it's voluntary but that requires freedom article two of germany's basic law its constitution gives her the right to the free development of her personality. on the that's at the heart of democracy but he job prevents a girl of seven from freely developing herself just. how can a girl in a corset like this develop healthily and become a normal member of the society. after the fact that we could have asked the locksmith whether he's aware of the right of free personal development and whether he granted to his children. he would say islam invented free personal development program to say that fourteen hundred years ago islam already came up with all the
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good things we have in europe now. is labor government. so it counts is the qur'an not germany's basic law against exactly you're aware of the study showing that the majority of turks living here in germany put the qur'an above the basic law. still on the scene they are the only ones we've all of them were honest that figure would be eighty percent. versus after sports or. you know. reading the coffee grounds can you do that. what's in store for the future. it says islam called the reformed. with if i have to see that.
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let's go. islam can't be reformed is that really true every religion develops in its own way. before luther christians didn't believe reform was possible. i see the majority of the four and a half million muslims in germany practicing their religion quietly they seem to reconcile the divine order with the secular one. this film supposed to be a dialogue between muslims one where only muslims are given a say. next time ed and i want to meet young committed muslims we're meeting members of jumah young muslim active what do they care about what goals do they pursue. the only catch is i can't tell them about hunted for security reasons . the young people don't know i'm coming with
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a critic of islam. i hope they'll be open to us anyway do you think they'll recognize you as you can see i've got a surprise visitor do you know him yes yeah. you've read something by you. you know i can't remember the exact title but mr abdul samad published a book last year where he tried to equate islam and fascism was the title again islamic fascism islamic fascism i read it i found it tough going. and i was interested in how he was polarizing people with the book. did the book anger you or her. my identity is based to a very large extent on my religious character. i felt hurt in my identity and in my mind i'm in what makes me me. i didn't feel like i wanted to punch the wood or
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anything. i read these things to toughen up and to avoid overreacting so i don't get provoked. that's what critics of islam want but they won't get that from me. you're accusing me of deliberately setting out to hurt you know all provoke you yes you want to provoke economist's on us what certainly true is that ham ed has criticised islam and angered people there are muslims who want to kill him because of that criticism. issuing a front walk calling to have someone murdered regardless of who the tell you it is is complete nonsense especially because of criticism anyone should be able to criticize whatever they want. you know what i think i thought today would be about muslims in germany muslims in berlin and about muslim life and now we're debating
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issues like this again. i'm from berlin i'm threatened in berlin by one person not one person. i'd never threaten me or i'm certain none of the people here would threaten your womb german we all have an individual lifestyle i think it's a shame that we're not talking about that today and that we're instead talking about terrorism and how you perceive the death threat i think that's a shame it makes me laugh really. it doesn't make me laugh it's a matter of life and death to me just like your complaints about the germans and how they don't accept you there are problems associated with islam too not least in germany because we have extremists here too we have islamic associations that patronize muslims and try to speak in their name and you act as a group. and a group that. it was less defined for us it was more general we thought this would be about how we live here with each other maybe
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a few difficult questions for security reasons you couldn't tell us you were coming but islam in berlin isn't about extremists or people who threaten the lives of people like you. to keep the i'd like to visit what other thought i was and tell us about them how we lived together why can't we talk about the fact that there are five hundred thousand muslims in berlin and that we don't have a problem with each other there was a room with a he job and a mobile phone with a palestinian flag. can be taken for granted do we have to address it. yes but i think it's problematic if we as muslims have these negative discussions the whole time it's constant pessimism at every discussion never mind where at work at university the question is always what you think about the job why do you have to do this or that you hear it once you're polite you hear it twice you're polite and then the third time in the thirty fifth time and then you think do we really
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not have any other problems in this country like the how that kind of an influx is to this how do you see it when do you feel injured as a muslim. and for this for let's let's win this mission i feel injured if i feel impaired or disadvantaged because of my religion if i can't pursue a certain job for example because i look like a muslim because i have a beard dark income vice. president and bob hogg because i want to trade work and i'm placed as a disadvantage as a result you know if i'm out and i'm with you have we are told the whole time that we don't quite belong to german society yet even though we call ourselves german are you primarily german or primarily muslim i'm primarily you can't put it that way because the one is religion and the other is nationality i'm a german muslim country often and this is how i would like to be accepted by german society i want to be accepted with all my facets even though it's just
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a piece of fabric on my head i want to be accepted with it and a pair in public and it i'd like to be able to wear it and still be able to work as a lawyer for example and. at the end of the conversation i became aware again how hard it still must be to be a devout muslim in germany you constantly have to justify yourself and emphasize that islam is a peaceful religion i send some of the human. feel pushed into a corner they're sick and tired of having to defend themselves and they were angry about hannity unannounced visit. the a but i remember the self-confident women religion played no role in my discovery of myself as a woman but how can deeply devout muslims reconcile the demands of their religion with a modern view of women. to answer that we need zainab who calls
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herself a conservative muslim feminist. i was just being told about. that . i found out about you a bit earlier. you've come with your entourage a surprise guest. you could have told me in advance. we couldn't for security reasons i thought it was because people would be a bit upset no they're real security reasons you're not annoyed with me are you you know i was just a bit surprised you two know each other yes that's why i thought that what you just said made sense where are we going around the corner to al and martha let's try it . what's that. for three of which you wanted to wear kneecap and cover your face. this is the hima
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you put it on so you can see a silhouette anymore there's a skirt as well because if you were to move people would see your legs and that is to be avoided too. when you wear these things it's not just about covering your hair you want to hide your feminine allure because if i'm going to put this on a string strictly speaking i'm committing a sin because i know she's just getting a dress i could have bad thoughts yes simply being in this room with this subject matter i don't know if i've done it correctly i'm coming out. it's not right at the back i don't want to trample on any religious feelings but i feel a little like batman doesn't fit it looks nice with the purple and the black it has something respectable about it the hand shouldn't be visible right now what's interesting is the reinterpretation of the kneecap or the burka which we mainly know from afghanistan this blue gown with this lattice in front of the eyes back in
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three thousand b.c. the sioux marianne's were in mesopotamia and it was traditional for prostitutes to cover up as a free woman you until out to. fish eye on how things changed so i'd have been a prostitute back then that's right definitely in the samarian part of mesopotamia you'd be put in that box in arabia before islam you'd have been a free noble woman only slave women weren't allowed to wear a job and today today you're a muslim woman who's chosen the salafi interpretation. of the motivations behind why a muslim woman covers up very a lot of their own reasons like positioning herself better on the marriage market because you're saying i'm a good chaste muslim women if you marry me you won't have to worry about my being an immodest it's also about distinguishing all self sometimes from your own parents
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by showing your religion a kind of all show you how to live religion properly another factory suffering for god you cover up to suffer the god that way you collect hasn't it points for the afterlife it's a very commercial thought that plays a role in raising children too but also in this interpretation of. the man. i am a couple how her posture is different than usual to her in makes her look small and limited like. you could intimidator them i don't know or like that sounds at least yes well you know i have to this isn't how she usually chooses to dress it's just an experiment.
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yeah yeah. it's a strange feeling my field of vision is very limited because of the slit for the eyes i can't see my body anymore i can only feel it i'm covered up but feel exposed to the gaze of the passers by and i can't hold a man's gaze i feel intimidated. i wonder how emancipation could even be possible as a devout muslim woman. might. you can see yourself as a muslim and a feminist for centuries men have been thinking about and reflecting on texts and developing yes. texts and not like so why shouldn't a woman have the same. kind of almost just as tom does of tools or the qur'an say you can strike women it says a wife is the vessel to receive her husband's seed meaning the husband can excuse
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me mount her at any time without her putting up any resistance can you take the same book and find a legacy of emancipation in it. given if you look at history then there was emancipation at a very early point women were secured in a manner of speaking and the construct of marriage was introduced to provide them safety with regards to clearing up questions of fatherhood waiting three months when i get divorced that the man wasn't allowed to marry again straight away you know all the details so there is emancipation that. two western women muslim women never fought for their rights i think it's a problem never to have to fight for rights over time that's become lost if women can't read or write they don't have access to theological texts but what does this blow for emancipation really look like you say the qur'an says the first blow is to have no two boos when it comes to asking questions oscar whatever comes to mind
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don't be scared that if you lost something you'll be excluded from your community that your parents will curse you and your brother will look at you strangely. it's course not all and you have to ask yourself why you react like that. we have to look inward and ask ourselves what drives us to these reactions it's that you stop thinking about where these things come from. zenit gives me hope that religious muslims will follow her example and bravely stand up for equality without having to give up their faith. as well as if there really is a name that stands for islam and for europe in this function of building bridges then the first person i think of is by some t.v. . as
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a girl i've heard of bus and. i can well imagine you know who he is then you also know that he coined significant terms such as euro islam and dominant culture. he's one of the people who used to warn about all the things we're experiencing now muslim fundamentalism problems with migration in those days people said he was a rabble rouser now you read his theories and you think this guy was right. the element of surprise for me is always exciting. mr t.v. hello. i've brought another guest. we've never met and i only know you from t.v. i've never met you before either never met no we've never met i mean. i'm pleased to meet you personally how are you good things have you read
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a book by abdullah. and. i know what he does and i don't agree with him on everything because unlike him i'm a devout muslim but i'm a reformist i'm not writing off islam just yet having the time on the shelf what do you criticize about him because he's written off islam and i still have hope. you still have hope when you say hammett is someone who hates islam i know that's incorrect if you ban criticism there's no enlightenment the difference between us is that you're a devout muslim and i'm not you think islam can be reformed i don't so what do we have in common. the fight for freedom and human rights information i've had to. cluster t.v. tell us briefly what you know islam is how do you define it. happens your. numbers here the euro islam is based on five pillars the first is separation of religion and state the second is individual not collective human rights thirdly
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tolerance and tolerance not in the islamic sense of tolerating christians and jews but tolerance in the sense of the european in light and meant and then a civil society and pluralism. it was in itself be all that pluralism means islam is one religion among many the majority of muslims reject that they say there's just one religion and that islam that's against the constitution of your does the constitution gives us religious freedom not for muslims but for everybody a christian is a person of faith as a jew or a hindu and an atheist who doesn't have a faith can invoke the basic law to muslims need to accept that it was the members of the stuff that you know i don't think is in here but then we're confronted with the devout muslims who take the qur'an as the word of god the final word. on that in state that again by a lack it sais that allies religion is islam and islam came to defeat all other
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religions and if you want and we're seeing and we all have a. feeling in the world many things in the qur'an have to be relativize them viewed from a historical perspective of course there's a lot of resistance to that like i've said before that it's quite clear that if a muslim once a live according to the letter of the qur'an in europe and be a european that. it's not possible when you define him mom tells young muslims five six seven eight year olds that they can't take a woman's hand that they can't have german friends then that's segregationist islam that's just. kind of got involved without realizing it the german state and the german churches support segregationist islam watching him on the truth and what it's a preventing of integration in the name of integration i can't logically understand that or. not. i can't understand it either i think that's the basic problem that islam ists islamic associations and salafist all agree with the
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german government that islam is a homogenous group. that treated as a collective instead of as individuals that's where the problem begins the german state needs someone it can talk to as well how else will you establish communications the german state can't personally talk to four million muslims in her life about another no this question doesn't come up in france or other european countries the german state and the german churches want to force a christian church model on to islam but muslims are individuals i don't want an islamic state church to represent me. that's a violation of my religious faith which is based on my individuality this argument that the state in the church is need a communication partner the central council of muslims i reject that. as the three missions given it scares me in
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a non reformed islam there's no religious freedom. and i think you want to have a kind of i don't have the freedom to leave the religion. if i leave islam then it's rid of apostasy any muslim who kill me that's sharia law and there's the fact were i in mom because allah. in egypt the minute one or more is kind of. if a muslim kills an apostate there's no punishment for that act in islam if there was a state church in germany that's represented by the central muslim council then i'd leave islam i don't want to be represented by the central council and that's not my liberal islam then i'd be a non muslim any muslim could kill me here that's why i appeal to the commonsense of german politicians and church people stop seeing us as a collective oh it was. with individuals you know and talk to us as individuals i don't want to be part of the collective you're building
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here that. you're violating my basic right to freedom of religion is a right of common five. that was a passionate plea mr gibb if. the people of europe see themselves as individuals most of the time in muslim societies however the group the family unit takes precedence islam is the common denominator those who don't want that can easily feel lost sometimes it's probably easier to just give yourself over to religion we want to meet people at peace with themselves and their fates where attending a muslim celebration i'm meeting the speaker in the mosque. her name is peanut judge and like me she has turkish roots since i don't know if critics of islam are welcome here i've come without hamad at least for now. it's
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a special occasion today it's the twenty seventh night of ramadan we call it lie lie at. the night of power in this night the koran became a complete finished book it's also the night that's mentioned in the koran as a special night on this night a particularly large number of guests come to the mosque we're expecting between four and five thousand people today or they'll break that fast here meaning they only together everyone will share from that table with the next table and after that everyone will pray in the mosque. but what does this mosque mean to you a huge amount on the one hand it's a bit of comfort and how when you come here it's a bit like being in turkey it's got that holiday feeling on the other hand it's the place where mr encounters have taken place where the muslim will muslim or turkish
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german it's the place where we've made the most friendships with the majority population so it's not just home in the sense of turkey it's also home and. who's welcome here everyone is welcome any time the doors to the mosque in a way is open. to all mosque is based on ottoman. this is typical turkish oncotype the special thing is that the prayer is always the same of china america germany or turkey and you can join in the prance you'll have a mosque that looks like this or like that and you'll see children everywhere to my head is in a world penalize friendly and welcoming but i struggle to keep up with what she's saying i'm thinking about when would be a good moment to ask her whether would be welcome here too.
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and. i got one last question just theoretically. you said before that everyone was welcome at the mosque yes but what about critics of islam are they welcome to. we regularly have critics of the mosque we have many people who come in groups from institution for example and there are some critics among them i'll tell you i mean ok i met up just ahmad does that mean anything to you yes is he welcome.
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do what you like just tell us. you wouldn't throw him out though. you had to hand i mean. we wouldn't throw anyone out. i just don't know if some young people recognize him and then ask what he's doing here. yeah. yeah. the old. how made up just some odd. that's come over here yeah you've not met before. i've seen you on t.v. you've seen me on t.v. you're welcome here we're in front of the mask because it's packed inside there's no room it's the break of the fast that's exactly. i'm just surprised by the security you don't need to be scared of course i'm not scared of
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you for some reason. or of our community we're out on the street you know anything is possible. what's it like to have hammered here now you know he's a vehement critic of islam what would you like to say to him. that the rest of us that i say so much when he's talking on television i like to hear it firsthand that it's because of me i'm often angry with you when i see you on t.v. i'm an open person i think it's a shame that the experiences that have occurred in your life with muslims which i regret opera jetted onto islam as if islam were to blame for the bad things people do to islam i mean they must mention i think we have a very beautiful wonderful religion but people are flawed we all have our flaws and sometimes we're bad people but that doesn't have anything to do with the religion.
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you're saying my criticism of islam is only based on my personal bad experiences as a minister of foreign so that. i often feel the two of you know i've written a book about the profits. where i just reproduced historical facts that are stated in islamic books. what does that have to do with my personal experience and if i read a book or take someone apart with the intention of criticizing it or them and always find something that i can say i don't like but if i approach something positively and say i want to get to know this person and love this person with an open mind then i'll find things to love about that person i was just but you don't have to approach it positively from the start for you as a devout muslim i can understand why you'd approach the brother free of the prophet positively because you love this person i want to be neutral i want to look at the sources i have to forget that the qur'an is revealed by god i see it as
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a human written in the seventh century if you read the text you forget the reality and the love and then you realize there are problems biggest one day with this title and even on the eastern part of us the problems with wars problems with the prophets both in the qur'an and in other sources and unfairly and they are found that he kept women are spoils of war for example and had sex with them but that's not in the koran the way you quote that ok so you're a thirty three it's pointless to discuss the theology it's for program but you said it wasn't in the qur'an that he used them for sex and that he saw them as spoils of wool that's not in the qur'an let's look at zero thirty three i'll get a qur'an so we can look no problem i have it in my head you don't no problem. for me the prophet is someone who brought about a revolution at a time when women meant nothing when women were sold and given away as commodities when girls were buried alive the prophet came and said men and women are equal in
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the eyes of allah can i respond to that as evidence that women were equal before islam came along the prophet's first wife what was she she was a traitor his employer. there was no islam and then she offered him a job and she even asked for his hand in marriage. yes but she was an exception in that society didn't now want to deny that girls who are buried alive that was an arab tradition that's a legend and exactly we're talking about other sources so we won't be on the same page one more question you said girls were buried alive before mohammed came along what did mohammed and always friends get for wives from all the girls had already been buried it's a legend and that's what i'm saying is that the prophet is sacred to you and that it crosses a red line for you if the prophet is criticized. i just think that the source is mr
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abdel some of these hunting authors i've read let's go in to your mosque you know show them to you maybe today is a bad day another time happily but it's in your facial biography and that was my source another time is that an offer. we can do that. we have your word this is chechen said we can do that maybe next time without the camera i think that's fair. it's an offer it least i think dialogue is positive. for us i'm satisfied ok ok wonderful sounds good.
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