looks are brought to life. maybe the stories there will get a rewrite. of the story of the russian revolution. from the perspective of writers thinkers artists. what did it feel like to live in times of a revolution people. to the russian art revolution. ninety seven a real starting october twenty fifth t w. hello and welcome to quadriga he's young he's charismatic and he refers to his base as a movement rather than a party no it's not

a manual mccaw i'm referring to but the even younger and distinctly more conservative sebastian courts in just five months he reinvented a party that has been in government for thirty years renaming it simply asked in courts list and borrowing anti immigration rhetoric from austria's hard right wing populist their leader. was also a big winner in last sunday's elections together the two parties took nearly two thirds of the vote. the election result is being called a tectonic shift abroad as well as in austria so is austria's swing to the right a threat to europe that's the question i'll be discussing with my guests it's a pleasure to welcome pam and she is a journalist for germany's topps daily newspaper and she says the swing to the right in austria is not an exception but the norm all of europe is shifting to the right. and with us as well as ron kaufman he is the w.'s eastern europe expert and

he says if we end up positions itself as a right wing populist force in europe paris will respond with a stronger for europe than the populace surrounding victoria or bonn in central eastern europe in hungary would be left behind. and finally great to have matthew carney chick on the show once again he has austrian roots and is politico's chief european correspondent and he says austria's course is not a threat to europe but a threat to the vision of closer integration pushed by french president mccall and the e.u. commission so before we come to the implications for europe as a whole i'd like to talk a bit more about the causes of last week's election result and matthew carney chick let me start with you as an austrian mainstream parties have been governing together in a grand coalition in austria for what seems to many voters to be a near eternity so is this election result really about the issues or is it in

essence a protest by a lot of floaters who say we are tired of politics political business as usual i think that's definitely part of it there's been a lot of frustration with the grand coalition in austria which as you say has been in power for quite a long time for ten years running but really before that for decades most of the post-war period and what that has led to is a lot of client a list of policies in austria with the two dominant parties the people's party and the social democrats dividing up a lot of the spoils between them and that starts in public housing for example but really goes through every part of public life that includes the public television stations a lot of these positions have traditionally been divvied up between the new two main parties and so then you have this populist party come in the freedom party and say we want to really and these corrupt practices we want to create a level playing field so that is definitely. been

a very potent issue for them traditionally but the other issue which might have been more powerful this time is the question of foreigners of refugees how to deal with that and in particular how to deal with islam and this is something that really gets a lot of austrians blood boiling is the question of what they call islamization or this fear that the society is becoming islamicized so i want to come back to that issue in just a moment but franco fun when we're talking about other factors that may have influenced the result to what degree would you put this down also to personal issues sebastian courts as a figure he kind of represents a new model of european politician along the lines in some ways in some ways of emmanuel mccaw what's behind this sudden new new model i think people in austria were looking for an alternative and founded in a very young man who was working on the political sphere for the last years as

a foreign minister as well and that quite a job that was accept of two people than he moved on with this. populist rhetoric using also the refugee crisis in europe in about four two years ago two thousand and fifteen and i have the feeling that many austrians oncet the loss of control with her vote voting a lot also not for only for the conservative people's party but also for the writing populace of freedom party. well you could have been sebastian courts as both other guests have mentioned took his party distinctly to the right with rhetoric that in some cases echoed what we've heard from the right wing populist the freedom party but still it's puzzling why are austrians suddenly susceptible to this message this is a country that is prosperous that has near full employment and which in twenty

fifteen stood firmly at the side of uncle americal as one of europe's most open and welcoming countries during that wave of migration so what's happened well i think basically austria has always had a very strong populist and right wing movement since back to the eighty's so in a way it's just more of the same it's not a radical change as you might think but also i think that in all of europe not only in austria you have two issues that are really burning and that people care about and it's all about security one issue is internal security you saw it but borders that suddenly open that should be closed that should be controlled and the other issue that is almost or even more important is social security it is true that austria has full full employment more or less but many peoples nonetheless have this feeling they might lose out you have full employment but the. wages are not really rising you have a country with high growth but hardly anything is somehow. reaching

the employed or employees so i think and that's something the. freedom party. talked about and tried to somehow again votes with them if they for example propose that there should be a thousand two hundred euro's for every rich or e. who had been very good for forty years and that shows that there is an issue about social security also in austria that is not really addressed of was not addressed by the social democrats so they left the door wide open for the other parties not you can't you what do we know about the austrians who voted for that right wing party for the freedom party to what degree are they truly threatened by immigration in any real sense are they losing out perhaps on housing on jobs because of the way the migration. well most of them or not and never will but as

rico says there is this sort of fear of what could come and i think that's really you know at the base of this not just in austria but in other countries there's this sense that there's so many people coming in they're going to take our welfare away from us our future is uncertain our children's future is uncertain one interesting take away from the austrian election talking to voters afterwards they did some surveys and they found that i think two thirds of austrians were pessimistic about the future they thought that their children would have a tougher time than they did so this is really want to sort of the classic reasons that people would vote for a party like the freedom party i think to intervene had i think the social democrats didn't really come up with a turnit of stimulus or the actual compay in austria is not a country that is per se against immigration austria is an immigration country was was always since i have spoke times and the ok you came on k.

a lot of austrians are coming from hungary are coming from the balkans this is this it's in the genes it's genetic fall for the society which means for me that's not so easy to say ok they're just against islam they're just against foreigners no the leading politicians in austria did not find an answer for the questions of the people doing that complain my thing let's take a closer look by comparing the two young politicians i mentioned at the outset of the program namely emmanuel mccall and sebastian cortes the austrian result came as a surprise to many europeans who thought that the french election had stopped the rightward drift in europe in its tracks in fact the ndaa and paris are taking very very different approaches when it comes to migration so let's take a look. they're both young ambitious and smart.

austria's designated chancellor sebastiaan courts and french president and mana why mccall both have promised to bring a breath of fresh air and have started their own political movements amash and there's a bust him court's next. but their approaches to right wing populism are very different. to past and courts owes his rise to the refugee crisis with his hard line against migrants and his isolationist policies he's co-opted the biggest campaign issue of the right wing populist and that strategy allowed his party to emerge victorious from the elections. a man of color on the other hand won the presidential election and france with a decidedly pro europe agenda and a profile that clearly defined him in opposition to the right wing populists of the form last year not. inclusion or exclusion what's the best way to keep rightwing populists in check. or think of him and let

me put that inclusion versus exquisite and question to you because it is in fact one that's also being debated there are adamantly here in germany should politicians take the rise of the right as a reflection of legitimate concerns about the destabilizing effects of migration and adjust their policies accordingly or should they in essence draw a red lines well if you look at my call he seemed. red lines but in reality he also is very much against taking a few g.'s for example he said that france would take a twenty thousand refugees in two years that is nothing so he claims to be different from independent and he is but nonetheless when it comes to immigration he is catering to the voters of the pen and i think that's the same is true of the as. social democrats north korea they've also very much against refugees already trying to somehow. to adapt to the voters of that on the right side and they

shouldn't be too optimistic about mccloy i think because if he does not succeed to bring economic growth to france and i think he will not succeed then in the next election we will have an opinion as if this is just you know the this is just the last chance for europe you shouldn't be too. too caffrey about the success of friends so the possibility that francis own right wing party the four nasional might in fact come roaring back across reforms are not accepted by the population matthew country it's unclear still what form the next government in austria will take but we could well see this right wing party the freedom party entering a governing coalition led by sebastian courts and his conservative party the people's party if that occurs will mr kurtz really be able to contain the freedom party by essentially adjusting

a bit to the right or might it wind up co-opting him rather than the reverse i think he will succeed because of the amazing support that he had in this election that he has within his own party right now because he really did re furbish this party around his own person and change the name even to the sebastian kurtz list and so forth so i think that he has an advantage there he also has the other advantage that generally his ratings in the population are extremely high much higher than his counterpart at the freedom party docket so i think that he has that advantage on the other hand the freedom party he's been in the government with his party before from two thousand and till two thousand and seven in various iterations and during that time the. people's party really managed to put the freedom party in a box and it kind of led to that party's destruction and so mr struck it is very

concerned that this kind of thing could happen again so he's already said he's not going to basically always follow the lead of the people's party he's not going to dance to their tune he's going to stand up for his issues and we'll see so it could come to some very strong situations what are his issues mr himself claims to have changed his stripes and is now saying for example that his youthful contacts to neo nazis were simply. the madness of youth. do you think can we buy that has he really somehow moderated or is he in sheep like clothing yeah i think probably i would say the latter definitely and if you look at the rhetoric during the campaign his use of anti-semitic innuendo for example in campaign events in in debates there's no question that this party is part of the far right when you know

maybe even the ultra of far right a lot of the leaders of the party were members of these nationalist fraternities in austria that have a much more a kind of german nationalist tendency so i don't think there's any question about where this party stands but they have tried to broaden their appeal with things that you might normally associated associate with the social democratic party by suggesting you know more welfare payments for the elderly more help for workers more education support and that really is the core of their program and these are things that are not that controversial and at the same time bring a lot of people in michael flynn if we think back to the year two thousand just mentioned by matthew condon chick that was also a moment when the free party the right wing party entered into a coalition with the conservatives and in fact there was a cry about. all across europe fourteen e.u. states impose sanctions on austria now there is barely

a peep and in fact we hear of the social democrats in austria have not ruled out themselves entering a coalition with the freedom party what's going on i have feeling that the freedom party moved more to the center they tried to. get rid of people and positions extremists and far right of course there was a few arguments and t.v. discussions also were anti-semitism was lying under the surface but i think they're eager to to leave it there and not bring it up like before that's one point the other thing if i may i would like to come back to it how many witches this is our last chance in europe i disagree i think this is the biggest chance for what europe has now to to change the system to change the bloc towards more integration towards more europe with these societies and these countries that want to move forward ok

let's come back to that in just a moment i saw him shaking her head rather vigorously there and i have a way that it's not true that the freedom party moved to the center it's very right thing party and that hasn't changed i think the change came in europe because of the sanctions against this first clinician between the people's party and the freedom party from two thousand to thirty two thousand and six when the sanctions were decided by the european commission proved to be. a disaster because nothing changed in austria instead everyone was the. law in favor of the freedom party than before because the austrians had the feeling that their country was attacked by europe so this time of people just don't discuss about sanctions anymore because it was obvious that the freedom party was strengthened by this aggressive act and not subdued so this time people just hope that i. the thing will be fine in austria in four years because one result could be that this coalition

again. doesn't bring any results for the voters it's just a lot of talk about enemies all about fifty g.'s but nothing happens so that the social democrats because it could become very strong as an opposition party and then rule in the next four to four years i think that's the hope in europe given the fact that concern about the future in general and about migration in particular are by no means isolated to austria let us now look at what the austrian election result could in fact mean for the rest of europe. sebastiaan courts and the austrian freedom party would like to limit the number of refugees admitted to zero that's a de facto revocation of the country's asylum. both pushing for permanent border checks around austria that's a clear break with europe's open borders policy. courts a sympathetic to members of the vicious right groups such as poland and hungary and their anti migration policies that could make

a fair distribution of refugees within the european union more difficult. austria could also blocky use sanctions against members of the vicious gradgrind. courts and the austrian freedom party see the autocratic flood of mere putin mostly as a trade partner so they want to ease sanctions against russia can they want to allow more popular referendums possibly even on the euro and the e.u. itself does the election in austria represent a setback for europe. so let me get matthew carney and franco from the duel it out a bit now because your opening statements indicated rather contradictory views on what this means for the e.u. going forward so frank kaufman saw some potential for strengthening of core europe and you said you thought the austrian results could well halt the process of integration and halt mr macro push so perhaps matthew go first with that more

pessimistic view and then we'll but tell you no i mean but this is really the core question is pessimistic depending on where you stand on the issue i think a lot of people even in germany would say we like the e.u. as it is we're not anti you we like the free market we like the euro we want to keep things as we are what we don't want is to shift more sovereignty to brussels now this would be the position also of the people's party in austria of sebastian course his party as well as the far right freedom party it's also the position of most of the central and eastern european. countries if not all of them who are really enjoying the freedom that they won after the berlin wall fell down in one nine hundred eighty nine and they are not as eager to shift their societies into this larger sort of european amalgamation and don't want a more federal europe they like what they're getting now and i think that the austrian election could strengthen that bloc because austria is

a net payer for example into the budget it is a western european country and i think with sebastian cordes who is becoming a very prominent figure in european politics as well because of his recent success and his youth and all the rest of it i think they could have somebody who is taking this message to brussels so you could see this bloc if you will acting as a kind of break to the kind of mcchrystal visions that we've seen propagated recently but i also think that just one last point i don't even think that what mcchrystal wants i don't think that germany will be able to go along with that in the end i don't think that angle america will be able to go along with that in the end because i think it's very controversial within her own conservative bloc especially in bavaria where the sister party to miracles party where many people also want to have this europe of the regions as they call it they don't want to shift everything to brussels frank kaufmann please address the arguments you've

just heard but also couldn't argue that austria if it positions itself closer to those central eastern european countries might even play a mediating role that would allow for a reintegration of these different blocs possible but then a lot of these central is new countries will have to change their policy towards europe and to join again the that the way and the policies of of good arguments and and the sheer in the says. necessitate in the bloc i have the feeling that it's a reaction to those elections in austria will be that the that we will have more europe in a couple of years time i think a bloc a core european group will integrate further as a reaction also to what happened in central eastern europe austria's most important neighbor hungary for example is suffering because politicians his elites mr robin the prime minister is

a prop it's arguing with less europe rather than with more europe we shift back to the financial crisis that time hungary was a candidate for the euro a lot of people invested and got credits in euro currency and after that they had a lot of problems to pay pay back their mortgages and that's one reason why he won a lot of he won a lot of votes and he won the latest elections means less europe is suffering brings people to suffer rather than more europe and i think this is one reason why a group of core european countries will create a kind of a stream where others either will follow or we really have a situation where for a longer period of time we have to find space and the block so rekha haven't you got to be a tie breaker here that idea of a europe of different speeds has been debated very intensively for a couple of years now but can there really be different speeds on immigration the european court of justice for example has just rejected

a challenge from hungary and slovakia to e.u. refugee distribution quotas if austria also tries to balk at taking more refugees mightn't it wind up also getting a reprimand from the e.u. but i think that a grievous mess here here i think the if you key issue is decided in the sense that no country in whole of europe wants to take any lower if you g.'s that is also true of germany and i think that. any european country. which doesn't want to. more integration towards europe that's even true of germany and that's also true that say of the netherlands or belgium so what about mr micawber's proposed and he did he want yeah unfortunately i'd say he doesn't stand a chance what will happen is of course that's it you know the one thing is the promise of a magic idea of europe that doesn't have a chance at the moment on the at the other hand you know that is the sheer necessity of working together for example if there was a recession in economic crisis of course suddenly everyone would start investing on

a european scale so the program that like all suggests would become reality but not because you think or believe in great europe but just because it's not necessary and so not vision driven but pragmatic so let me just ask all of you because we are getting close to the end of our time to come back to the title question that we posed at the beginning do you see the austrian election result and the possible formation of a coalition there as a threat to europe not because i think it's a threat to them i call vision not necessarily a threat to europe or say but a threat to this idea that europe needs to be much more closely integrated than it is i think it will empower my core mission in europe and we will move on to about sort of more integrated. danger because many conservative parties will copy this idea that puts it as you just a cup in the program on the right and then the next thank you very much to all of

you for being with us and thanks to all of you for tuning in the same.

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