almost the same fourteen social inequality a lack of the freedom of the friends. who can afford to stay silent when it comes to the fans and the humans on the scene or microphones who have decided to put their trust in us. maintained is jenny harrison who aren't a d.w.i. . so far the political fallout from catalonia as independence bid shows no sign of being contained on the contrary all sides digging in for a protracted battle my guess this week here in brussels is spain's foreign minister alphonso that's this how has his government failed to prevent the country's worst and arguably its most predictable political crisis in decades.

alphonso dust is welcome to conflict zone thank you very much pleased to be here prime minister raw it was in barcelona the weekend valuing to end what he called separatist havoc in the eyes of number of human rights organizations your security forces were responsible for at least part of that havoc you denied this against the video evidence broadcast by a number of mainstream rock casting organizations around the world what did you base your denial on what i didn't deny i mean when i say five so yes yes and i mean on the basis of what of the fact that you know of the fact of the data that were made public after this supposedly excessive force i mean there's all the

people but for form from the the government of catalonia at the time they said they accepted that only four people were taken to hospital they claim that eight hundred were treated for injuries but they acknowledge that half of that were simply unsightly attacks i mean honestly there may have been cases of force but that was not excessive force and that was not a deliberate force it was a reaction to provoke asian from people who prevented them from this charging the mandate that they had received by the courts. so if your police did nothing wrong why ignore the calls mung international calls for a independent and impartial investigation of why we ignore such calls we said that such an investigation was going to be carried through by the courts on account of the. cases that have been brought to them claiming that use of force or

or you know a un high commissioner for human rights called for an independent has to go to the council of europe so we have you know really shouldn't we have already said always said that we have a standing invitation to you know special representatives of human rights organization international organizations to come as they feel it's needed we have received letters we have answered those letters and you know the investigations are being carried through by the organs that are supposed to carry those investigations we have a justice that's true why did the citizens' rights left turn to the city government in barcelona when asked what took place who was involved what the cost was he was told by the interior ministry presentation of this information would violate the regulations on classified information in other words get lost i don't think so i mean i think we have been really candid about this and we have. led every people

who have been interested in this investigation to when he was told it was classified information well maybe it's the same with the least of those eight hundred people who have been injured that we have asked for it and we've never received but if it's classified that it's a cover up and no i don't think i don't think i don't think never i mean everyone everyone was carrying. cameras and things can be seen and being seen and investigate and i don't think there is any coverup. now now where you continue to deny excessive force human rights watch for example said from its own research into three cases it had no doubt at all that national force national police and civil guard officers used excessive force using they made that up you know you talking about three cases and four people taken to hell is that is that is though at least is very three areas that they covered i mean final also for

instance an old woman seventy years old said she was picked up and thrown to the ground by two civil guards after refusing to move from her chair which was blocking the path to the station someone else was then thrown on top of her and her wrist broke is that not excessive force. i don't know i mean if they were prevented from . if they prevented the police from doing what they should be doing because they made so round on top of each other seventy year old come on i'm coming these kinds of accidents occur so or it isn't like an accident as well i don't think this was by any means. really you know. sunday a bloody sunday or anything like that it may not have been bloody sunday but it was hardly in the best traditions of policing was it if people are being thrown to the ground well if you if you look at the. actions of the police in many other incidents you i don't think you would be many different situation and

pictures than those that you saw so i don't think and i repeat i don't think that was excessive force no. you well you didn't read these accounts from here it's what did you know i didn't you have so you were simply sent out to tell the world that everything is fine. i'm telling the world what i believe happened because i saw also the pictures we discovered that your police were specifically warned by the courts to respect the coexistence between citizens that's not entirely the case no no no no and then i was reported by human rights watch well i think that wasn't that was if i'm correct that was a phrase in one of the. preamble of. the different documents that were drafted but that was not in the final of the of the of the courts no the fact is that they have a well known reputation for using excessive force on the ones already been censured

by the un the committee against torture numerous human rights groups have and now once again they show that was justified i don't think that is the case i think one spain is one of the countries with fewer condemnations of judgments in the european court of human rights less than for example belgium or many of them so i don't think that we have a reputation on the contrary on the contrary problem is that two years ago the un committee against torture said it was seriously concerned over ports that the spanish authorities failed to carry out prompt effective impartial and thorough investigations into complaints of torture treatment committed by your security forces including allegations regarding acts committed during in a commercial communique other detention and excessive use of force by the police well you know i think that's the job of the committee and tortured to say valve about countries and to make sure the law if it's the truth well young. that may

have been the truth in spain in one or two occasions but at the same happens to many other countries so what half a dozen of these. who says it said the spanish authorities made little effort to prosecute alleged identity look i don't think well that that's an opinion in any way but i don't i don't think spain has nothing that cannot receive lessons from many countries on that score it's not everything lessons from countries receiving from the conventional body that you signed up to you so you were not going to the conventionally with which everyone just group with groups which proves that we are ready to be scrutinized and there are other countries who don't don't accept that you can't go out of the results of the scrutiny can you say that they also expressed concern you know such as there is a single case where there is a claim yes we cannot our aspiration is to. be in a position not to receive any such claims but i don't think that we are in a particular position that we can single out as

a country which has many such situations of culture know in one case last may the european court of human rights found that spain violated the prohibited of torture and other ill treatment by failing to conduct an affective an investigation into allegations of torture proud of the one ruling you mention one case no it wasn't it wasn't the first case they have been seven seven seven cases that's a track record isn't well if you so there are many reasons it depends on two what you compare it it doesn't but what are you happy with these seven cases are you proud of the not that i'm not happy with any case where there has supposedly i haven't followed through whether those claims have been proven right or not. or where they come from the court itself which court european court of human rights well i just told you that spain is one of the countries with the fewest cases of

being condemned by the being called for human rights so all something. fit i mean i've read reports and have seen that our proportion is about zero bone thirteen cases so all the maybe something wrong in that maybe your information is not entirely correct i don't know no it is actually correct well let me let me talk more about your handling of this crisis the cattle crisis you have and say you are in forcing but no constitution yeah according to the castle learning government your administration has itself been in clear violation of the spanish constitution so from nineteenth of september to october the first the civil guard opened private letters addressed to thousands of citizens searched government offices and private companies intercepted the post delivery and subscription

magazines in an attempt to seize all material related to the coming vote all in violation of article eighteen of the spanish constitution which will do that and that's a little opinion if you take at face value whatever they say to you and maybe to you deny that those things were done because the court where was ordering to find out who was responsible for lots of actions that were done in contravention to our constitution so it's not that they took the initiative by themselves they were following court orders and that is what the police do in the you know in countries where the rule of law prevails. they also point out that your government is pretty selective in which court decisions it implements and which it chooses to ignore it says the cattle the cattle and government says there are currently thirty four rulings by spanish courts in favor of catalonia which you the madrid government simply ignore three on education twenty four on social services three on

environmental matters and foreign culture. i don't think that now is the time to discuss those things which are you know claims by a regional government that has being blatantly this regarding their own regional laws the. decisions of the chords the constitution so. no to me i tell you it is beyond me using you of hypocrisy well we could do the same we don't need to accuse accuse them of hypocrisy we accuse them or acts of actions that have been judged by everyone and by any sensible people to be in you know in blatant disregard of the laws of the mock prosy i mean what can you accept of people who have simply put away the rules of their parliaments and the opinion of the legal services and even the opinions of the majority to pursue

a path that was simply going to divide the cattle on people and the private them of the kind of. coexistence and togetherness that they were you living with so far why did you let this crisis get so bad i mean there were so many opportunities to stop it along the way this is a catastrophic failure by your government not to step in the that's your opinions that sort of thing and i don't think that's going to stop it for you they may may have been some. i mean we may have been a bit nate naive we didn't think that these people would go so far as to provoke the situation of division and flag. mentation that they have provoking catalonia but that's simply their own responsibility but the fact is that the catalan ex-president congress pushed them repeatedly and continually sought dialogue which your government turned to look he only sought a dialogue about the question of

a referendum the date of a referendum and the date of like a ration of unilateral independence all those things are totally impossible under the spanish constitution and for that matter under any constitution in the western world. minister is that true because in april twentieth he said publicly that if madrid agrees just to the existence of a problem between spain and catalonia and knowledge in the problem and starting talks would send a positive sign well that's. that's his opinion anyway i don't know what i said to that's what he said but that's that's ok if you if you take what he says as the truth that's fine with me but as for nothing more illegal or nothing more seditious than roads then negotiation and dialogue that could give expression to the aspirations of the majority that's what and if that was true he would have come to the meetings of the presidents of the spanish regions to discuss have about the new

system of financing of these animals communities he would have come to the committee that has been established in the congo in the spanish parliament to discuss about the possible amendment of the constitution he never came to that he simply. thinks that he's right and everyone else is wrong and. honestly think that the true this is the opposite but even after the referendum he stepped back from asking the catalan parliament to vote on independence used instead he made a symbolic declaration and called for negotiations on the region's future we all response was governor and then without a government in my five everything the government gave him every open. to step back from the brink he could have had the opportunity to call elections himself he didn't there i mean honestly. to me it's hard to understand how you give some credit to that kind of politician who is clearly

a discreet politician by now but his is the irony because on october the twenty ninth you said i rule out full independence but not necessarily more autonomy even if they are now already one of the regions with the highest powers incompetent says why on earth didn't you offer more autonomy six months earlier instead of just shutting down the i mean i think i think such a possibility was clearly offered to them they don't tell me they don't think so well isn't thinking for roads for negotiation. no really i don't know for this six months what we did we have been offering dialogue all the way and honestly they have proven that they are the only thing that they wanted no one is to bring the council and people to the brink of disaster by pursuing this road to unilaterally dependence somehow you know unilateral the you we need the creation of unilateral independence in spanish comes across in english. driving under the

influence and i'm absolutely convinced that these people are driving under some kind of influence i don't know what but it's. an opportunity now we have with the regulators asking just for roads for negotiation and dialogue that's all he asked but you didn't offer more autonomy or we did we did at that time we have over you so you didn't before what he says i mean if you if you trust him that's fine i deny you were distracted the government was thinking of other things they're always on the run this once again on the right on the twenty ninth of october in april in april april in. when he made that of. don't remember right now but i'm sure that we were governing which is what we are supposed to think that mr bush the man has not been doing in the last few months he didn't take any notice of the needs of the catalan people the only thing he talked about and thought about was the

independence and the resolve the situation in which catalonia finds itself right now with you know businesses leaving and unemployment growing and that is only the responsibility of the cuts along of the previous government level and you were distracted by all the corruption scandals that your party is faced with one senior official after another becoming implicated in illegal process and i don't think that government was distracted by that now the prime minister was caught to piers witness one of the most notorious cases of corruption in your party first time a sitting prime minister has been called to give evidence in spain i'm not sure that was the first case but in any case the prime minister did what any ordinary citizen would do and that what mr bush the man doesn't want to do because he escaped the justice so there is nothing wrong in appearing as witness in the case

before the court and so you know that is something that we suppose a mother doesn't seem ready to do so you know well according to him according to the catalan government. you bet everything on the coercive power of the law and the state to make it go away but it hasn't worked has it we haven't used to question the only moment that we have had we not we the police has been forced to do some question is because they were obeying court orders we have always showing the way to dialogue and we have to govern the whole country and we do it in a peaceful and democratic way and that's that's the way it is. if you go one you know simply accepting as you know the whole truth what.

the previous government government was saying that's fine but that's not the reality but your actions were causing concern even in geneva with the office of the high commissioner for human rights september the twenty eighth his office released its experts view that the measures they were witnessing in space in catalonia the searching a printing houses the seizure of referendum material blocked web sites political meeting shutdown these were worrying because they said they appeared to violate fundamental individual rights cutting of public information and the possibility of debate at a critical moment for spain's democracy. you said it appeared they appeared to violate they sent letters and with very with their opinions to us and we dutifully answered them and that is fine that's that's a kind of exchange that we have and all the members you said you know you deny this

we usually says are acceptable legist. i mean what i say is that some of the measures sometimes have to be done in order to comply with the judgments of the of the courts and with decisions of the court so. that the whole. proceed here is about you know finding out whether those situations are justified or not and we believe that in these cases they were justified because of the. you know the investigations that were being carried out by by the courts about people who were clearly violating the spanish laws and the constitution and when the u.s. experts on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order accuses you of backsliding on commitments to national agreements like the international covenant on civil and political rights for instance we have you we have that yes i do we have never hidden from from the examinations and you know about our level of

compliance with the international covenant on human rights yes but he says you are backsliding on your commitments as international no that is we have a procedure we have a procedure to ascertain whether that is true or not and that is what we are following. you may be following it but they don't agree that you're in compliance with it. well that's their opinion then we have ours and then the proceeded exists to find out who is right and who is wrong and we find out the right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a property of of states either to grant or deny i mean with us is that without qualifying what he's saying is simply someone who cannot be you know considered. someone who is you know interpret thing or applying the law which is very clear

that the rights of selves and the so-called right of self-determination of peoples do not exist in the context of states who behave without discriminating people from on account of their. believes of the religion of their color so i mean if that is the type of people that you would trust there may be something wrong in your judgment too well it's not that i trust them it's what the experts are saying we're godless of the lawfulness of the referendum this is you have a responsibility to respect those rights that are essential to democratic society and we do respect them and the the ones who didn't respect them was the previous government of the of catalonia we do respect them but there are rights that do not exist however much you claim they exist do you think this issue is really going to go away yes it will yes it will we are going to be able to read stablish you know

two governors and coexistence in catalonia and we are going to safeguard the rights of those who live in catalonia to remain cards or learn spanish and european you have three quarters of a million people demonstrating on saturday for independence and against the current detention of the catalan leaders and you think they're just going to go away no. they're going to express the vote in the elections of the twenty first of december to gather with six of the million people who catalans but you don't really see the long shadow of these elections have no long implication from senior members of your party is that if the independence party is win and still want independence you'll just step in and take back against that is your opinion we haven't said such things i don't know where you get those all right from the senate's vice president pedro sensors a member of your party he said if after december the twenty first there is a government outside of the law there will be another one five five another article

one five being treated which means you come back in and remove won't talk to me we'll see what happens if this is a threat what isn't it no there is not a threat i mean. no i don't think there is a threat we are going i mean we have shown that we were on the mark proceed to prevail in catalonia lead counsel and people vote and then we will see what happens and those who can prevent any such situation happen as has been created in the last few months are those who are this regard and violating the first account on the law and then the constitutional but you think this is a free and fair election if you're saying that indeed if you say here's what i'm if the wrong side wins will come along and we're going to agree on not saying such a thing we're not saying such a thing. no we are making sure that this is going to be a few free and fair elections. in the stuff thank you very much for thank you thank you for a few. good

. books. thanks.

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