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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili  Deutsche Welle  April 11, 2018 11:30pm-12:01am CEST

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special. treat for. my guest this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's mikao saakashvili once the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three but has he now made too many enemies and run out of road.
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we hear saakashvili welcome to conferences thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you one moment you're promising to unite to the opposition against the president then you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't for from myself but i told them you know i told them if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that was actually true but they never tried that place but i went to the roof because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people so i had to go to the roof it had very pragmatic. person messages at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications work this is this is street involved in a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot and that well look it's not about me i think people have made it about you then she made it about yeah well let's take a little personal lives. government is doing all kind of bizarre feelings that in
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many ways is making it about me because since been walled in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know. police. leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for it doesn't look it all started. just my party or somebody else's name and they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had to file a document to enter at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant to come back. well they didn't want to they obviously want to come back for sure i wanted to do with that but you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys don't want me here period from one moment you know screaming at the people to go take to the streets throw out. and the thieves as you put it yes and then you write
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him a letter saying oh it's nothing personal it's personal let's have a chat it's nothing personal i actually will bring a ramp mixed message you know that i made it very clear that i am willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the only go to my feet. absolutely behold the whole clique of feet by the doesn't mean that i'm that apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs some of the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine might this integrate just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is that how come only one of you think and you know that wasn't of my choice that anybody knew they put it on me and you seem to revel in selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told a reporter well that's part of the job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in no sleep but we dealt public. support i can admit you much
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the only thing that can keep me moving here to the only thing we can achieve something here in this situation our legal system is failing the solutions don't work ukraine basically east so far the state with absolutely failed this is the only way how can get it for all your messages for people to see interpret for published city no i we need their support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and it's right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you got to your poll ratings were good you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll last september by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have either a somewhat favorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is right now hate all the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the polling december thirty three percent of ukraine's would support my canvas for
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prime ministership and actually they supported more than half of them support more or less forty six this is this is one poll but plenty of other point yes i show you only two percent giving you a very favorable no only two percent exact opposite of. this is international business you may be whatever but you think they see so like there was a bill ayers last ball. november or something like that which is the latest poll that you mentioned gave me the same exactly same ratings as present personal present question was all their own media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not a big achievement but considering the same you set the bar pretty low pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this battle flag battle we've been moving ahead by parties and making it to parliament despite the med the blockage as i said thirty four percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister. basically people main thing is people are supporting our agenda
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that's more important of course will you say then you insisted to a magazine called as you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption will never forgive you that is if you are the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent who gave you a very favorable rating are so you have thousands never seen my dad ever anybody had mobilized such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this december and this is. all all about me but i help to do it with brew group of people lots of good young people lots of new faces but its value because you told of magazine said if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like so it is all about you know absolutely it's not being like this look this kind of politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this you. know i talk i just made
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a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make talk about new political system new colony new energy system new. industry of ukraine it's all about ukraine my legacy in georgia it's all about results i would like to come out of a little yeah but a little later let's talk about your time as governor yes in twenty fifteen hour for just governor region and you went with a reformist zeal absolute like that you said people expected with a real revolution comes real change but we had the revolution and basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve this and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged in the early because that's their part of life you don't and you didn't expect that this is known as well one of the most of the tourist areas of corruption exact in ukraine a very corrupt country in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave up exactly because when i went there we all believed. that i brought with me we will believe that poroshenko would. have interest in supporting us that really
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would have stayed and support you so they would be very easy for that they had to know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government oppression fifty four percent we had my dad and we'd all the criticisms we had of them and with all this caps that we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my down because that's the european choice because you know how entrenched corruption in this country you start somewhere only game in eighteen that's all you were prepared to give it. ukrainian civil rights advocates said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything you hearing that people that's not exactly right with the benefit we built the road that had been built for forty years we had it built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of that city for that customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepare to build this new singapore bear or
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indeed a new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but we showed the people different and i think that's some kind of legacy even if i'm not totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power running look pretty job for there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for and for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine but you told a western journalist in december last december that you had your eyes on a role of the future government ideally as problem in the world social you're hungry power let me let me put this in a way to put a very plain went off or twice to become prime minister i decline i declined because i thought it would be window dressing i declined because he wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him without. allowed to
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have my ministers would i be allowed to have it would i be allowed to have a call for new elections together with him if we wanted a real change he said absent not then i said i cannot take the job but of course if we have new elections you have changeability you have new people and if people want me to serve as prime minister and search for percent according to the sports i showed they supported you know why not i am sure you think that you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that you said poroshenko is a thief who is mega corrupt and is plundering the whole of europe we we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred of evidence while there is howling more than there is well there's plenty of evidence would you you say this so do you but you don't do the hard look we don't do the analysis you don't know we didn't say sions you know you haven't we did you
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have to put it out there we in the public domain everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about a present of office taking party money laundering reinforcing the all the guards having direct conflict of here's the proof that you could take to court where's the proof to which court the court that they were called full course that fully controlled by the way we are courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work all those control political power media prosecutors courts police system and every time you make a major allegation like justin you don't provide the evidence you devalue parents you know i think i think we are getting more and more support of the people people are getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when the situations had failed people i think ukraine asserted were no worse than romanians i think they will as well failed. eventually for
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a peaceful protest force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt oligarchies you are using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just don't call them cranks you prince case you call them or. a fortune almost entirely but that's almost let's face it it's almost a cliche let's face it do you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide evidence of their business but the worst voted out their biggest biggest business ukraine as ukraine is not growing economy stagnating ukraine has ukraine has become the poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength of that you tell them they're all crooks and as a result this is a result of this corrupt at least i wouldn't stand up and then you have president owning becoming part and to because all the guys on electricity monopoly don't he raises a little surprises and there's nothing in there and you knew this before you did on the job so look no new this you know but you know he was a lonely guy you knew he hadn't sold chocolate business good even though he
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promised to do this while you had no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you call the move robust you throw up your hands and then you walk out of nothing when we started we both believe that he had the unique chance to become somebody else yes he had all this corrupt background sort of connections but on the other hand people game he meant it and we believe in this and he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create an enchanter corruption bureau he loved to have transparent loan purchases their second kid allowed us to create a national to corruption bureau and also to create a new police force. so there are good number of steps taken the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment this all came into conflict with his personal interests and personal of all the cars and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choice to decide well if i had been in his place i would never have. opted for forbes list of billionaires become
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a historic figure you would rather be in porcelain billionaires than being philosophically difference of visions of you you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visited you said all your problems would go away current accusations of conceiving illegal funds or that if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julie or to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things too i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well but that's because that's basically the person that i wanted because one of yours that because he wasn't to blame for it if you want i mean it does it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name you have no credibility with the story every action that he was right after that everything that their management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up a report they told me we will go after you will create so-called compromise don't
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you we'll put it on television we will we will but you're still here we will it will you still yes we will you right under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the court the biggest here the courts actually refused to put you on this was so we didn't want that. exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let free and justice in ukraine there's one person and she was immediately dismissed right now if you spend your free to you're free to walk around the issue stateless as you are but you're free to be i have to put you on a plane to join up because they could because i still have off which they could why they did it with my some of my people but i'm something else they point to several groups of jordan back on their head and with special flights we separate it's a special flight this and people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty thousand people took to the streets and went. my prison that was
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quite a message to the government that's why i think it also influenced the judge it really showed that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what matters let's let let's talk about georgia john you're the first and i'm sent here convicted you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential pardon for police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well loot you say that's a lie no nobody has ever been more than just a presence for a party you remember bill clinton. you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding him to kill nobody has ever constitution of georgia makes it absolutely a limited right for president to part of the first second. term and they were pardoned together with hundred thirty three military officers potential holes yes
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yes huge holes in the case heard in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't they not if you look at it said it was struck by how the different branches of state park at the ministry of interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being down that's a huge allegation against you at the same time european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that they were looking for some kind of evidence against me and because they refused to provide it it was a purely political case the government of georgia have hired hand best world investigators like a retired general president is totally out of this government of georgia that's controlled by because private shareholder this is two thousand and one your state you will still. doesn't exactly but let me tell you what's happening now i know but
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let's not get away from what happened there in europe there was a huge outcry in georgia and about the european court chris but on the other hand president unlimited right to pardon this case is purely political and the suggestion was mr saakashvili the good clearly was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and only bird got it in them on this manslaughter he said they were convicted and this are big part of they were convicted in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motives but you know the same a trial was fourteen you know the way you know that the bogan know that this very same judge has been used in cases against my government members already by this government so judges are forced learn the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it
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mischievous look country i took a short it was a field country with way back you wouldn't expect to turn failed country with no budget with no functioning institutions to turn we heard it was very. brilliant success and reforms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so that was an excuse me very very familiar the liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting testing and laying down. judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i would admit it why your accusation is that you prevent noxious i was for being but that's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we that this is this committee we're worse now but your human rights record wasn't that good because of the time yes and you know once it was it you would let it go back down on the press look you for instance so the media t.v. station and your security forces were. he did in two thousand and seven physically
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abusing jonas destroying their equipment so it went back earlier so that's let me point out there but if you put your own car. parked in the station the last five years. there. were plenty of other stations they made a result of my work in the region where nobody quits on their own where they had full power much more to have here i quit on my own through elections i came as you should have done absolutely i was you shouldn't claim credit simply for doing what yemen or president in a normal country should do no region you look around in the region nobody does that tito japery see your form of foreign minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your story to create an unshakeable power fiefdom your style of ruling ultimately authoritarian it was what it was working for because private shareholder. that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other
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people you said called any of other people who said the same thing looting the human rights organizations we including them look at we move toward or from one of them to what would be worst place of doing business in one of the best. position to nine position and you spied on your own people comprehensively you have a so-called dirty are full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known george stockpiled to use and nobody has ever struck pile don't repeat the russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it and also to tell the twenty not true in the game it's not true one hundred forty five of them nobody has ever produced in front of the press. nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by british private shareholder of course from. specifically for he bit to put any together any evidence of private life this is very important for me personally because that's it . what they've been using against me and the previous government that's what
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they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoy your know it's order system was far from ideal but georgia had the best reforms in terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best four promises to short of that of course the best judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about people they care that they had best investigate in the world so looking for my own source for my account for my something they couldn't find any one of your calling leaders of the so called years revelation rose revolution nino bush and there's a sense in two thousand and twelve ga had become like the bolshevik system you know for sure science is very vicious and you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's all and that's a smear isn't noble not just because you just said no more question no answer about no more with russia in two thousand and eight you hit back you know said people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russian spies know it this is
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not about you this is no my internist this me this is not my terminology they were called people like that traitor since but traitors is not my thing but in her case she accepts she after a war in georgia after russian invasion into georgia she went with putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to the she stood person as a russian she was somebody the russians somebody without any proof she saw what that really starts next report of course her role model says what putin wants to do you no one else is one of. them a role model you never should it never consider that it's an insult to compare to put in pursuit was going to have only one criticising. the right person she wasn't the only one the e.u. criticised your handling of the war well they said that they delivered a damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they said they said. he says through
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a partial they said acting in the notes of them oh no that's what they're said i want to know in two thousand and no that's what not what they said they said that russian troops were the first to enter georgian territory but the peak action was started by our response and you know i would see any other present in the world not responding to for an army entering the territory and they said we basically gave tional decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that look which flatly contradicts your version you know the thing is that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they want to get a war and then if there is a there is a trend to blame of the weak team because then international company had to do something about it but despite the fact what to ukraine had happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up that it's all painfully obvious what the international community did to help you and now you're looking here you are in ukraine yes looking for help from the international community of course i always say little fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no no i. got sick and
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could take plane tonight and flew me to stay out of the jail i can go to when you can someone i'd sure want to because i hope you're enjoying having the time help because because you're different from everybody come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all you've got to be always oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give him such easy right we cannot make such an easy with these guys are people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects and future for this country ultimately they'll blow up this country because the country will disintegrate you can see it actually says sarwari netherlands and look at it quietly i just can't do it because i'm just really good to have you on the program queue for his wife much in the thank you you thank .
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the be. the be.
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