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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili  Deutsche Welle  April 16, 2018 1:30am-2:00am CEST

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no made use of the superhero on a mission to change and it's smart smart tracks smart station image and the only thing left to bring prefiguring dangerous to. my guests this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's mikao saakashvili once the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three but has he now made too many enemies and run out of road.
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we hear saakashvili welcome to come to thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you well the moment you're probably saying to unite to the opposition against the president then you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't from myself i told them no i told them if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that was actually true but they never tried it at that place but i went to the roof because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people saw i had to go through the roof we've had very pragmatic written till the end while the first message got through at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications worked but this is this is street involved a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot and that well look it's not about me i think people have you made it about you then she donated about you yeah let's a little personal let's go. the government is doing all kind of bizarre things that
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in many ways is making it about me because since one of your they've been walled in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know. police . leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for a country look it all started. just my party on somebody else's name then they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had the document to enter at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant which i didn't come back. well they didn't want to obviously want to come back for sure i wanted to i agree with that but as you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys don't want me here period from one moment screaming at the people to go take to the streets throw out. and the thieves as you put it yes and then you write him
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a letter saying oh it's nothing personal yes it is the first time let's have a chat it's nothing personal i actually will bring rain mixed message you know i made it very clear that i'm willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the only go to the thief. absolutely behold the whole week of feet but it doesn't mean that i'm but apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine my present a great just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about what you're parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is a hunk of only one of your things and you know that wasn't of my choice that and then you say put it on me and you seem to revel in selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told a reporter well that's part of the job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in no sleep but we dealt public. support i can edit you much
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the only thing that can keep me moving here do the only thing we can achieve something here in this situation our legal system is failing the don't work ukraine basically east so far with absolutely failed this is the only way how can get it for all your messages for people to see interpret for public no i we need their support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and it's a right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you got to your poll ratings with goods you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll last september by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have either a somewhat unfavorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is right now i hate all the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the poll in december for percent of ukraine's would support my candidate for prime
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ministership and actually they supported more than half of that support more or less forty six this is one poll but there are plenty of other point yes actually you only two percent giving you a very favorable no under two percent exact opposite of. this is international. whatever but you are thinking see so like there was a bill ayers last poll from december. november or something like that which is the latest poll that you mention gave me the same exactly the same ratings that present personal present question was all around media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not the biggest concern is going to say you set the bar pretty low that's pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this. battle we've been woman had by parties in making it to parliament despite the medical blockage as i said thirty three percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister. basically people main thing is people are supporting our agenda
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that's more important of course will you say then you insisted to a magazine article that you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption i'll never forgive you that as if you are the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent who gave you a very favorable rating so you have thousands never seen my dad ever anybody had mobilized such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this in december and this is. all all about me but i helped to do it with brew group of people lots of good young people lots of new faces but it's about you because you told of magazine said if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like soldiers all about you know absolutely it's not going to like this look this is the politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this what you. know i talk i just made
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a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make talk about new political system new colony new energy systems new. history of ukraine it's all about ukraine my legacy in georgia it's all about results i would like to come on to that but a little later let's talk about your term as governor yes in twenty fifteen must go off in just governor region and you went with a reformist zeal absolute like that you said people expected with the real revolution comes real change but we have the revolution that basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve this and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged nearly cost that's their part of life you don't and you didn't expect that this is known as well one of the most of the tourist areas of corruption in ukraine a very corrupt country in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave up exactly because when i went there we all believed. i brought with me we all believe that question called. have interest in supporting us that really would have
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steak and support you so they would be that easy i thought that they had to know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government oppression fifty four percent we had my dad and we'd all the criticism we had of them and with all the scraps that we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my dad because european choice because you know how entrenched corruption. you start somewhere only get one thousand that's all you were prepared to give it. the u.k. ukrainian civil rights advocate said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything you during that people that's not exact right with the benefit we built the road that had been built for forty years we had it built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of that city of odessa customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepared to build this new singapore they're
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already the new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but we showed the people different and i think that's some kind of legacy even if i'm not i'm totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile enough wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power run look job for there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for and for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine told the western journalists in december last december that you had your eyes on a role in the future government ideally as problem in the world social you're hungry no power let me let me put it put very clear when persian gulf or twice to become prime minister i decline i declined because i thought it would be window dressing i declined because he wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him would i. be allowed
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to have my ministers would i be allowed to have dialogue call for new elections together with him if we wanted a real change he said absolutely not then i said i cannot take the job but of course we have new elections we have changeability you have new people and if people want me to service prime minister and vote for percent at the book according to the sports i showed they supported you know why not i. think you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that you said poroshenko is a thief who is mega corrupt and he's plundering the whole of europe we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred of evidence while there is hardly more than there is well there's plenty of evidence would you you say this year but you don't do the hard look we don't do the
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analysis you don't know we didn't say shows you know you haven't we did you have to point it out there we in the public domain everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about a president taking part in money laundering reinforcing the oligarchs having direct conflict of where is the proof that you could take to court the proof to which court the court that they will record full course that fully controlled by the way we have courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work or does control political power media prosecutors courts police system and every time you make a major allegation like justin you don't provide the evidence you devalue. i think i think we are getting more and more support of the people people are getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when the situation had failed people i think ukraine is and were no worse than romanians i think they were as well as they were. eventually for
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a peaceful protests force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt oligarchies you are using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just call them all crooks you prince case you call them or. a fortune almost entirely different but that's almost a let's say that's almost a cliche let's face it do you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide solid evidence. in this but the worst of it out there because the biggest business ukraine has ukraine is not growing economies ukraine has ukraine has become the poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength of that you tell them they're all crooks and as a result this is a result of this corrupt at least i wouldn't stand up and then of course owners you have president owning becoming part and to because all that goes on electricity monopoly then you raise the selected prices and there's nothing in there and you knew this before you just won the general so look no new this you know but if you know he was an oligarchy you knew he hadn't sold you
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a chocolate business go even though he promised to do this while you had no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you call the movie rock you throw up your hands and then you walk out that when we started we both believed that he had the unique chance to become somebody else yes he had all this corrupt backgrounds of connections but on the other hand people came to mend it and we believe in this and he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create a national corruption bureau he loved to have transparent loan purchases there circles a kid allowed us to create a national to corruption pure and also to create a new police force. as the embryo so there are good number of steps taken the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment this all came into conflict with his personal interest and personal of all the cars and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choice to decide well if i had been in his place i would never. for forbes list of billionaires i would have
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become historic figure you would rather be in force a list of billionaires than. difference of view you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visited you said all your problems would go away current accusations and see even the illegal funds although if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julia to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things too i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well that's because that's basically the person that wanted because one thing was that because he wasn't to blame for it you want that i mean it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name of credibility with the story every action after that that he was right after that everything that their management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up a report they told me we will go after you will create so-called compromise don't
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you we'll put it on television we will it we will but you're still here we will still yes we will you right under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the courts agree to steer the courts actually refused just put you and i think this was so we didn't want that. exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let free and justice in ukraine there is one person and she was immediately dismissed right now if you spend your free to talk you are free to wander around the issue stateless as you are but you are free to be here i have to put you on a plane to georgia because they could because i still have off if they did it with my some of my people but them something else they point to several groups of georgian back on their head and with special flight. separately such a special flight this that people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty thousand people took to the streets and went. my prison was that
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was quite a message for the government that's why i think it also influenced the judge it really showed it that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what murtha that's about let's talk about georgia john you're the first and i'm sent here convicted you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential pardon for police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well look you say that's a lie no nobody has ever been more than just a presence for a party you remember bill clinton but you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding him to kill nobody has ever . shorter makes it absolutely a limited right for president to part of the first second. term and they were part of hundred thirty three of the military officers or potential holes yes yes huge
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holes in the case heard in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't in all of us and it's said it was struck by how the different branches of state power the ministry of interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being done that's a huge allegation against you at the same time european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that a retired well president years old now and this government of georgia is controlled by because private shareholder two thousand you have a little bit older but what your state you want still because of the exactly but let me tell you what's happening now i know but let's not get away from what happened there in europe there was a huge outcry in general. european court chris but on the other hand president
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limited right to pardon this case is political and the suggestion was mr saakashvili the good clearly was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and only bird got it to him on this massive order he said they were convicted and this are big part of they were convicted in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motives but you know the same a trial was fourteen you know where you know the big no that's james this very same judge has been used in cases against my government members already by this government so judges learn the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it mischievous look country i took a short it was a country with way back you wouldn't expect to turn pale country no
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budget with no functioning institutions turned we too early to very performing brilliant success and reforms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so that was an excuse me very very familiar the liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting just recently in the english style judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i would admit it was the accusation is that you prevent this from not being but that's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we and our judicial system is it worse now but your human rights record wasn't that good because you know the time years ago once it was it you would let it go back down on the press look for instance of the immediate t.v. station that your security forces raided in two thousand and seven physically abusing journalists destroying their equipment so it went back to their so that's let me point out there but if you put your own car. in the station because idea is
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still there. there were plenty of other stations he made a result of my work in the region where nobody quits on their own where they had full power much more to question where i would have here i quit on my own through elections i came through peaceful times you should have done absolutely i was you should have absolutely been you claim credit simply for doing what yes we can all president in a normal country should you know region you look around in the region nobody does that jumper is a your form of your minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your thirty to create an unshakable power fiefdom your style of ruling ultimately or thora tarion it was was not a party that was working for because private shareholder from even issued an order that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other people you said coldly of other people who said the same thing clued in the human rights organization we including them look at we move toward or from one of them to what would the worst
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place of doing business in one of the best hundred twenty seven position to nine position we would endure spied on you were comprehensively not you have a so-called dirty archive full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known george stockpile to use and no longer has ever pile both repeat the russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it they all still i don't like to tell the twenty not true and the government's not true one hundred forty of science wrong nobody has ever produced in front of the press. nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by biggest private shareholder of kasparov. specifically for he bit to put any together any evidence of private life this is very important for me personally because that's exactly what they've been using against me and the previous government that's what they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoy your narrow georgia system was far from ideal but georgia. had the best reforms in
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terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best four promised short of that of course judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about people they care that they had best investigate in the world so we're looking for my old shorts for my account for my something they couldn't find anyone who will be calling leaders of the so called years revelation rose revolution nino. seven two thousand and twelve ga had become like the bolshevik system you know for sure science is very vicious and you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's all and that's a smear isn't noble not just because she said no more question no answer about no more with russia in two thousand and eight you hit back you know said people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russian spies know that this is not about you this is no my this me this is not my terminology for spear they were called people like that traitor since but traitors is not my thing but in her case she accepts she after
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a war in georgia after russian invasion into georgia she went with putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to putin she stood person as a russian she was somebody the russians somebody without any proof she saw what was going to establish their support of course her role model says what putin wants to do you no one else is no one else does not want children of them are role models never should it never consider that it's an insult to compare to put in pursuit was going to have only one criticizing. the right person she wasn't the only one the e.u. criticised your handling of the war well they said that they did evidence damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they said they said they said to a partial and they said for acting in the notes of the mono that's what they're. in two thousand and no that's what not what this they said that russian troops were the first went to do. territory but the big action was started by our response and
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you know i would see any other president in the world not responding to for an army entering the territory of basically investigation decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that they did say look which flatly contradicts your version you know to think is that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they wanted to get a war and then they said there is a there is a trend to blame of the weak team because then international company had to do something about it but despite the fact that you claimed that happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up that it's all painfully obvious what the international community did to help you and now you're looking here you are in ukraine years appeal for help from the international community of course i always tell you i'm not saying we fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no no i would like to include just for god's sake i could take plenty when i concluded to stay out of the jail i can go to and you can tell why don't you want to because i hope you're enjoying having the time help because i because you have different from
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everybody i come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all you've got to be going oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give them such an easy right we cannot give in to make such an easy with these guys are people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects of future for this country ultimately they'll blow up this country because the country will disintegrate because it actually says somewhere in netherlands and look at it quietly i just cannot do it because i'm just really good to have you on the program queue for his wife much indeed thank you you thank
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. the book. come. up.
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