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tv   Quadriga - Erdogan in Germany Friend or Foe  Deutsche Welle  September 27, 2018 11:30pm-12:01am CEST

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t.w. on facebook and twitter up to date and in touch and follow us. climate change. waste. isn't it time for. africa people and projects that are changing are meant for the better so. you can let go. d. w. . a lot and a very warm welcome indeed to quadriga coming to you from beyond suburban this week to focus on the controversial state visits of germany by turkish president richard tired everyone who is being given the full red carpet treatment. on the eve of his visit the turkish media said that he wants to put an end to recent tensions between
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ankara and bull any thoughts after vitriolic verbal attacks on germany the arrests of german citizens on the brutal crackdown on the search opposition can the president at one be taken at his word the fact is the two sides meet each other more than ever before turkey is facing a crippling economic crisis and wants germany's backing. off once ankara to release those german prisoners and returns to the rule of law is a deal possible when a question here on quadriga this week is the one in germany friend or foe and to discuss that question i'm joined here in the studio by three excellent observers and i know it's so of all things to begin with maximally on cold turkey correspondent for the weekly news magazine. who says the german government should use another one state visit to strengthen democracy in. also with us is georgia voters and day eye color specialist on j. the turkish relations formerly princeton
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uncorrupt now with g.w. here in berlin and their believes that everyone is neither a friend nor of important strategic interest for most germany to talk with the search president please note she says with any price on the woman a computer direct kobo from the has any polling been steady school of governments who argues that it's high time for the german government to uphold democratic values and human rights instead of its economic political and security interests in its dealings with the other one regime welcome once again to all three of you about to begin with you deliver my just tell us why president and other ones visit to germany state visit to germany is so important and so controversial. well it is to start from the turkish perspective from the turkish government's perspective it is very important for for for the government for various reasons first of all of course there's a comic crisis in turkey as we know and the prospects for the prospects are very
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dark you know it's not expected to go to improve anytime soon and you know he's facing. a huge economic crisis and this is a government which actually has been has succeeded to remain in power for a very long time partly because of its economic you know for the success of the of the economy so that's one thing and then of course the deterioration of lation with the u.s. . is in a search for new or strengthen you know sort of a new partners treaty or to improve relations with old partners. so there's that from the perspective all the german government it is i mean this the reasons are against similar right i mean turkey is an important well there's of course always just at the g. the sort of magic word that i believe that is a. biddulph misfortune for turkey because turkey is just such
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a thick importance has always. enabled turkish government kurds one our past ones to get away with with very poor human rights record like us democracy is a lot like cetera so there's that and at a time when the rest of the middle east is in turmoil turkey's stability in turkey is very important for germany and the other european governments and of course we know that there's a lot of kurds presence of turkish community here except for us so for both sides it's an important visit at the important time there but let's be honest relations they are between the two sides germany and turkey have in recent times for the last two years also been all is this time now lots of people say this is a time for a reset in relations between the two so it's i understand that germany views it as a as a momentum where both sides have to sit and talk about it because it's not germany
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i mean it's aired on who wanted to visit germany so it's understandable that the german government would want to accept i don't in berlin if you want to visit germany then become less or less well it's going to strike the the invitation was issued by the german side in the first instance and i as far as i know the background information we have is that aired on after the referendum cold start in my eyes and wanted to clarify the situation because the tension was high and i don't think that i don't really believed that germany would take serious steps detention after detention you know when our don't coach time irish time i said that it was not actually from the interest on my german press a german president so as far as we know time i said that it was not a good momentum so he called again and as far as i remember it was just when the on the day of the elections the early elections were announced. an
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official close to i was in berlin trying to settle the invitation so it was some of it was agilent who wanted to come to berlin to talk about the relations and it's not new it's like it happens at the beginning of this year he wants to settle the tension because he i think he believes that it was just related to regarding you know the referendum and the domestic issues that it was not a bilateral tension he really believed that you could overcome this conflict do you agree maximillian is that a likely outcome of this meeting here or the meetings that we are dissipate here in berlin well i agree to the extent that it's like a purely opportunistic of both sides and especially of the turkish side i mean at one was hitting hard against germany when he thought this was sort of his election campaign and then he made a u. turn and now he's begun because he knows that he's in trouble and he has so many enemies and he's so lonely so suddenly he needs a new friend and a friend with money that germany has him over
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a barrel of his backing that means that germany can take certain extent of things on themselves and i think that's that's why this the state with that there is a certain chance for germany to to also bring forward things that are on the table for quite some some while i'm thinking off like questions about democracy about human rights about the state of law into a kid to to press and to push on in that respect at least to a certain extent and they should do their utmost to achieve this because i think at the moment add on for sure. is that the weaker. person in these negotiations and it gives a certain room off maneuver for the term side i wouldn't expect too much but it could be a beginning just to just give me an idea of what kind of turkish president we're dealing with his mr rather one that despot to dictator and authoritarian leader or an autocrat which of the monikers that they use. i don't know how i mean we need to
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quantify we need to know who we're dealing with you know what is self perception what's the passwords are really the thing to do again i used to call him in my articles i call him at this point i call him an authoritarian leader i think that what he is he's i believe he's certainly not a democrat and turkey has arrested thirty german citizens a different more than thirty five are still in turkish right jails as far as i know prisons into sectarian and other is where this should germany be rolling out the red carpet to a man like this. let it go a bit big for the back it's like it germans and other foreign foreigners who are in jail into again this is a clear that this would would would people call hostage diplomacy so add on sales people to get something for it and that is of course unacceptable in international relations and unacceptable for a country that claims to be a democracy so this is something which germany has to oppose the red carpet quest.
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i don't know if it necessarily has to be a red carpet i don't know if it had to be a state was it or if i were working with it it would have been an alternative that has been the case in the in the past would have been enough i would say yes i don't necessarily think it has to be a state with with it with a red carpet but in any case i think there is no other way then in doing these kind of things talking to those kind of people i mean advice not the only autocrat out there is putin who is far worse than ever and you have you have seen ping in china you have now donald trump i mean if you start only talking to democrats will be alone at the table very soon ok so and this is the state with that is needed what is what is important now is is the content and the outcome and there i i have. i expect the german government to be very well cool ok but just to get a taste of how bad relations between ankara and birdland have been let's go back to
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early two thousand and seventeen as last year of course in common and a comment from president had one of the germany refused to permit campaign speeches in german cities by other one and other such politicians listen to what he had to say. germany you have no relation whatsoever to democracy. and you should know that your current actions are no different from those of the nazi period. during which or that kind of thing several times now is not just an isolated occasion it gives one the impression that president to one is a man who cannot be trusted that he can turn his back away from europe and european values values of the west at any time exactly and it's not just by discourse but it but by his actions policies. that speak to this he is you know he is known to make you know u. turns he is known to. sort of not not to be reliable and therefore i think what
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needs what needs to be done from the german perspective is for for the german government to stick to its own principles and that values i mean going back to what makes me go said earlier there are two important distinctions between turkey and the other countries you mentioned china russia u.s. one that turkey is still formally in the e.u. accession country so it is it should be expected should be forced to you know your torso my credential member nato member to it and secondly it is reliant on like put in it is completely dependent on you know germany and the e.u. this is really an opportunity to press hard. to try to get whatever you know concession that the german government can get and not just for german citizens i mean i find obviously it is certainly disconcerting from the german perspective that german citizens are in jail in turkey but also that elected parliamentarians kurdish part of ontarians elected kurdish mayors journalists academics you know i
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mean you name it that these people are injured and these are europeans to write because turkey is also council member and so i think there dennis to be a holistic approach here not to single out you know sort of german citizens but to . really pressure to add on to change of course he will never be a democrat he will make such you know he can we can expect him to say such horrible things in the future too when he feels himself bolstered but now is an opportunity now is the moment where europe can actually a german a ten save some lives really intercooler and that's that that's a historic responsibility and i think they need to take that seriously into turkey is currently in the grip of a major crisis major currency and debt crisis before we talk about what the solution might be less of a quick look at the problem. people in turkey are paying a lot more for food these days and august prices overall rose about eighteen
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percent compared to the same period last year as the currency crisis continues. turkey's economy has slowed down as well. president carter wants massive construction projects including bridges subways and mosques have pushed the country deep into debt. carter one may turn to germany among others for financial aid. but relations between the two countries are strained. particularly over turkey's human rights record. can germany and turkey find a way to get along. in this current crisis this economic and political crisis that is facing what the experts all hopeful from germany well i think hopes to get the advantage as it did
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when you when turkey was that you express your country he wants to get the same financial support he wants to gets songs he needs funds because turkey's economy is depending on e.u. but turkey is not the same turkey any more and some in berlin even call it that add on republic so you know does is germany ready to give our don. what he needs i'm not sure i think it will have to we will be witnessing a change in bilateral relations but also a change in turkey's process officially it's not ended but i mean you have mentioned the e.u. process e.u. has no leverage on un turkey anymore what could be a way to convince our gong or to make a move in a certain direction is of course the economy and dimension and as for. as i understand where they're going to try to do lots but right at the moment the message from the german side is go and knock on the door of the i.m.f.
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the international monetary fund that is the right address for the problems that you offer a single t. he cannot do that no i don't think that berlin is is saying you know regarding financial aid yes turkey would have to go to the two i am if but we are forgetting something after twenty three of july two thousand and seventeen the german government implemented some economy we cannot call it sanctions but it. it doesn't give the economy support it used to gets so i would want is requesting to have those funds again foreign direct investments these are serious issue i think would be happy to get these. and we will have to wait and see if the government will be ready to have transactional relations which we which could be dangerous for i don't because i don't think although he always mentions customs union. customs union for example is serious modernizing customs union which we would
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have to talk about trades unions we would have to talk about public procurement we these are serious issue where you you with the drool of law anyway so i don't think he will he will move in that direction because that would i mean he wouldn't have his power he would lose his power so i think he will try to convince the german government by the refugee issue to give some time actual support maybe in a year in some years we will hear somewhere that the german government actually did give some support i don't i don't have any information on that but i think that's the first target he doesn't want to process that's not realistic that's a million you are not think i'd create and i would. bring it down to one sentence the core of the problem is add on himself and the way he governs the country and the economic crisis has a few of the reasons a few close developments that were accelerating it but it comes down to the way at
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on his governing and the problem here is he might get some support from germany might get some support from other from what. is the thing is and that is and that is and that is the problem that what he can offer is quite limited because he cannot make too many compromises on on his or three tarion way of governing because that will eventually. threaten his his power and so the concessions he can make i believe are quite limited that doesn't mean that germany should do whatever it can to push for these concessions but it would be an illusion to think that add one will make a fundamental change in his style again because that is how he built his power for with sixteen years the west says the prominent turkish author of middletown in a german newspaper this past weekend says he says the west should support turkey
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that must in return demand a return to democracy and the rule of law that's the that's the statements that everybody is sharing in advance of this that's the big hope that people have you have just call it an illusion yeah well to i agree to the statement though i just think there will be no. should i call it once the new movie i'm a democrat i would like a full jail or foliage real democracy and add one i think bad is an illusion that doesn't mean. that progress cannot be made and should not be made i think they can be and it's in its reachable to to to make some progress on the certain fields. when it comes to of low incomes the anti-terrorism laws when it comes to the role of the constitutional court i think that there are certain steps and i just i just don't believe that that one will be like. the
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full scale democrat he once claimed to be you maybe it has never been what we bring to lincoln in just a second what's about relations between chancellor angela merkel and the turkish president the two leaders go back a long way to two thousand and three i think that's when they first met that's a decade and a half ago these days he has the power to blackmail her over the refugee deal with the new machine meanwhile has the power to humiliate him by continuing to gloat to his new ambitions if they still have those ambitions as a better player direct tell us a little bit more about it's a complex relationship between merkel and everyone you know tell us a little bit more about it and what we can hope for at best it is indeed and i think a reminder is necessary about america stands on a very critical time in turkey's you know it's of democracy when she came to power together with sarkozy she categorically opposed turkey's membership to the you not because turkey didn't fulfill the criteria which was true of course but just from
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a sort of up very principled position that turkey was just didn't belong to you and that was a big mistake because at that time. dawn was actually fulfilling you know taking positive steps and we the democrats in turkey we need it germany's support i think that should not be forgotten she's. not necessarily a friend of you know she's also a very pragmatic political leader she thinks about her own political future and the refugee deal deflects that having said that the. about economic crisis i do want to emphasize you know what the aired on and his government there acting like a lazy student you know like a spoiled child when things go fine he claims he all the credit to himself and to his government and when things go wrong he blames everybody else that turkey is in the comic crisis it's his own fault and i find it actually appalling to hear from german high level politicians including s.p.d.
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leadership that germany should actually help turkey it is his policies of this expecting the independence of the central banks that are i mean you can name it that has caused this crisis and he has to pay the price at home specially for this so i think for and the e.u. accession process it's still turkey will never be a member of the whole process is stalled but the fact that turkey isn't that still an accession country still matters in terms of attracting the jurisdiction in general and hadn't heard the well it is that in there it's but i think it is but what matters for e.u. for our dorm is the prestige rights of this red carpet matters that turkey is an exception country the status of self matters nice word metrics to try he likes that he needs that and i think it is i actually think the red carpet is a mistake he is you know he should actually this moment should be really used by the german government. to sort of name and shame and really to put whatever
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pressure can be put and i think the german government and european leaders should not underestimate their power over our don and turkey turkey relies on germany it's not the other the other way around germany has a lot of power over. you and you're shaking your head i mean of course germany is a very important you country. but we shouldn't underestimate turkey either i mean. it's difficult for me as a journalist turkish journalist to talk like this is it's for some very pragmatic but the reality is that the constitutional referendum is over are done is the president's he is the strongest man in turkey is the only man that for him political leaders can talk to he is only the lonely he is weak he is isolated and it's a good momentum to talk with him but we know how our don can be and i think the way
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the german government is trying to manage it in a pragmatic way hurts me as as a turkish journalist offends me on certain issues but it's foreign policy you have you don't have friends this doesn't work like this you have to find figure out a long term solutions and i agree with you on the e.u. issue the e.u. membership is not on the table anymore but but the e.u. path customs union increasing economy cooperation if i don't needs it you know he was he was the one who messed up the relationships with the west and now he wants to find a way to overcome it so let him come and let him talk and let him say what he expects i mean this is the way international politics work but i agree with both of you yes it has to be made clear but who is talking about human rights just trump
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talk does the west talk about human rights what about council of europe died from the story over possibly count against an american pastor who's been in a circus person for the last couple of years runs the soonest possible that's that's try to think it's terrible that the pastor is in prison in turkey but there are a lot of people in prison turkey right now so when you look at it from an angle from a purely strategic you know my citizen is in prison in turkey i mean he will be released soon i personally think he will be released soon remember the old. or i mean and we should not forget just one last thing you know america is different than the e.u. turkish american relationships are transactional relationship based on security each turkey relationships are completely different and turkey is used neighborhood and has a responsibility it has to take responsibility to what's going on there i guess that's the that's the way i mean you mention that word and i think it's the right one transactional i think that is what has to come down now and in the european
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turkish and tremont turkish relationships as well it has to be purely transactional you get something if you give something and that is i think the message should america has to send to it on right now ok what is the headline going to be at the end of this meeting when mr red owen is back in her or istanbul what is that sort of you know what were you reading and you know i guess i think you're going as you may want to go i mean the headline. in took this newspaper was it definitely is going to be at all unsuccessful state was it to germany and everyone loves him out there. and in chairman it's going to be states complicated they look ahead like. i i hate to speculate. well i just hope i do want to see some critical head lifesaver and you know as a human rights lawyer and a turkish citizen this talk about just strategy adams transactions etc it's really i want to hear about principles and values and our main question on the show to ensure everyone from bowl phone home to certain mean i mean he is not i mean i am i
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am i'm not the right person to i'm sorry he is the president of across the country for you know the music thanks very much for joining us on courtney good to come back as soon as possible we'd love to have you back our interest after. the food. food.
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