it's technology digital advances transforming the model. to use humanity ready for . the second season of our documentary series founders power to. join german founders in asia as they explore our digital future. valid starts november twenty fourth off e.w. . today and arts twenty one special. women say time's up. news maestra me to end the global consequences how has women's protest changed the arts. are we at the verge of a new type guys everybody is talking about it and so are we and arts twenty one

special with karen helm stat at doj of ella global media font in boston round two of our big debate with four international women who speak up. feminist publisher over she brutality of india. lebanese poet and journalist giuliana how doubt. activist and author. of france and from united states film historian ellen harrington director of the german film institute. last week our panelists debated the me to movement and its global effects gave this time they'll tackle the veil a sign of self-determination. or a symbol of oppression. what i say is that as a woman you should be free to do whatever you want to do you with your body if you want to or his job you should be. to wear it if you don't want to want to wear

hijab you should be supported in order not to wear it and what's going on for example now in iran is very interesting because women are protesting in the street to protest against the fact that the job is is these men that hurry and you even see women with his job supporting their none here job the sisters in their right not to wear it and that's something i tried to very make really make clear because there is something that he's very patronize ing when you see a woman who has a huge job and you say you know to me feminism means to be uncovered any comments on this they'll depict before we start you know. defending the right of women to wear the veil let us ask ourselves and ask them what i think forced to wear the veil more the change shoes to wear that my point is to say that missing women are not a monolith if you wear

a hijab in france it doesn't have the same meaning as that he wearing and. yes i think it's very interesting you know india has the second largest muslim population in the world after indonesia and muslim women in india are covered and not covered and you know addressed in any which way they please there is hardly any place in the country where there is pressure but there is a very interesting way in which muslim women are claiming feminism so i'm not to as trimming feminism from within religion i'm not as negative or as pessimistic as you are about even saudi women being able to drive because i think one thing is what the state gives you but the other is what comes out from the ground and what women fight for and even a small right like that can actually be quite empowering to the women and one can dismiss what that means some of the struggles of muslim women in india have been.

to reclaim muslim shrines which they wanted to be able to visit which were only open to men and they won that battle but you know i want to come back briefly to what you began with the me too movement and the point that both of you were making which is about how you get to see in the media the high profile actors in this actually to me the movement against sexual violence which is embodied partly in the me too movement is really important worldwide because it has the potential to link the women's movement worldwide in a way that many issues have not done in recent years we have been very divided on many of our issues here's something that links us all together but we have to remember and the media since we're talking in a media house with the media have to remember that you can't only look at the big stories you have to look at the smaller stories and the fact that there's so much focus on me too in the united states and with in hollywood but you forget

everything else that's happening across the world is to mean symbolic of the fact that it's a white woman led movement and black women are forgotten in it the fact that arab women have disappeared from it and the fact that things that are happening in our countries are just completely invisible including the fact that everywhere in the world women are stepping out and claiming public spaces much more than they were before and that's really threatening. attack. the united states clearly the whole me to end times that movement was generated by celebrity but it's actually had a fantastic trickle down effect there's been really millions of people empowered and also just the sheer outrage actually you know people in the united states are really really angry right now because the country really is being run by a massage nest thank you very much allen for the. comment obviously. i'd

like to get to the situation in india where women are also fighting not only gender battles but also issues of class and caste and poverty and so on a return to your statement the statement i opened with about you with the indian women's movement here in the west our our perception of india is obviously highly polarized on the one hand you mentioned bollywood romantic exaggerated cliches but then on the other hand the shocking incidents of rape. what can you tell us there are two to kind of give us a more differentiated view of the reality of women in india that you see well i think it's actually it's unfortunate that the image of india that gets projected is either a terribly spiritual country which is not a very materialistic in many ways or of a country that's terribly violent towards towards its women and this is not to say violence does not exist but it is also

a country which is actually fantastically country full of opportunities for women where women have really reached the top in many ways without any family backing to the you know the entire banking industry is headed by women we've had extremely powerful politicians i mean this any number of things and it's again one has to look at things in a new onst way if you look at sexual violence statistically in the world and if you look at un statistics on the rate rape of a hundred thousand people you would be surprised to know that india is one point two on that scale the united states is twenty seven point eight the u.k. is strangely eight point something sweden is sixty three south africa is one twenty i'm just citing the statistics that i remember so what is it about india that creates this in. and i think there it's

a very complicated picture but partly i think those of us who've been involved in the women's movement are to blame because we have kept the issue of sexual violence towards women on the public agenda we will not let it go off the agenda because we want changes and we wanted to be addressed and the media has sided with us in very interesting ways so every case gets into the papers i don't want to take a nationalistic stance and pretend that we are great we're not but i think you are much more complicated and i think that we need to understand all saw where women are placed on should really and all of the kinds of beliefs and things which become sedimented over time and which become ways of imposing certain expected behaviors on women and bollywood fed into this right up to the gills until recently when with the entry of new young women directors it began to change

and now you're getting these amazing films which are made by women directors produced by women which started with ellen female story there yeah if there is a recent film needed the wedding which is about really women's sexual lives and it's amazing that which brings me to the question of how artistic creation can actually help to break down stereotypes we'll talk about that just in one second but first we're going to look at an exhibition of indian women artists and it's currently happening in votes bob let's talk. bracelets fired into bricks but not just ordinary bracelets they all come from violated women deaf room is an installation by indian feminist artist bharti kier next to it six women bodies made of plaster of sex workers and calcutta the exhibition facing india involve small and showing works by six indian artists. projector parties use the

refrigerator as a symbolic setting the kitchen is described to women in india with strict hierarchies and rules people from the all cost conscious into into a kitchen of a higher caste. all too if they have menstruation happening they're not supposed to into kitchens. the central theme of this show borders and their dissolution as the need to sense works her motley collection of replicated organs and teeth is a strong projection of the dividing lines between castes ethnic groups and genders . thanks to cultural scene women's position in the cultural scene in india and general young women artists in india are breaking taboos quite amazingly on issues of sexuality on issues of religion and doing some really fascinating work and i think a lot of young women are breaking these cultural stereotypes and creating new and

different cultures which will not be silenced and i think what becomes worrying and really dangerous you spoke of religion is when religion combines with political power and fundamentalism to impose cultural taboos on women and that's happening in india now and it's very scary even in the united states i would think if you think about it out there radical of right feet you know radical religion radical islam days this is what i always say and you think about it the right is not for women it's not pro choice it's not pro freedom it's very oppressive for definitely i would say that there is a tendency even in the west towards this you know backlash we're yes exactly got of we're all happy yeah ok i'm very interested in the for that you're. some

women who are claiming their religion to find sources in religion true to themselves so that's interesting that they wouldn't. give the religion away in the hands of men but saying no we we have to claim it and to say that you to have been interpreted for centuries for even you know more than centuries by men and now if we read the whole history we can have a feeling for the few mentions of pretension of it and be at the center of its history ellen yeah i think there's really no lack of women's artistic output in creativity it's really i think an issue of the gatekeepers and when museums open their minds up to exploring different kinds of artistic expression looking for new artists you know it's a tremendously important thing and it's interesting now coming to germany when i was named director of this of the dr phil museum in january there was a story in our net news this year there's eight women not be who've been named directors of german museums it's a record but the headline was still

a glass ceiling because all of the women running museums are underpaid i think getting people into these gate keeper positions in every community in every artistic organization will change the way that people are encouraged and inspired and who gets access to telling their stories because it's really about who's driving the narrative who's in charge of telling their story but who are the gatekeepers of religion there are many years of opiates the shame is that pleases so even if you try whatever you can in order to make free enter predation that to say this is wrong and you are not tried and i can do whatever i want there will still insist on putting their own stories out there and not in order not to give you the power that you are claiming so it's actually about power it's about who are the gatekeepers not just in film or in culture it's everywhere who are the gatekeepers of that. of this of this world in politics it's the same you know you

can like in my country there are now six deputies out of one hundred twenty eight deputies six deputies are women but unless we have more women in politics we will be able to have the laws that we are fighting for still and saudi arabia and other places it is the men who are giving you what is your own right would say that this is bad but there are you. know i. have you know i i want to just add one thing it's not only about power of course it is but it is also about strategy so if you are in a position of powerlessness and if you can only claim power in a very limited way at least you must try to do that which is what is happening and i think also i want to suggest also to you ellen can we maybe rethink this whole question of the glass ceiling because it seems to me that the glass ceiling is

almost i mean it's always ever articulated in terms of money because who was earning a larger amount of money was getting to the top but in many professions like yours like mine many others women are the ones who are controlling the content they are the ones who are so in publishing in india for example all the heads of all the editorial heads are women and i'm pretty sure this is the case in many places in the world all the c.e.o.'s are men because they earn the money but actually what's more important cash or taught and ideas and in that i think we've cracked that glass ceiling they're going to reach at something about the fact that i think that being an activist acting for equality and for justice is not asking for justice is just you know getting it taking any it's clearly a second taking it in so it's challenging the structure of power would give you just a science. just silence used to silence you i'd like to drive. and to do good but

unfortunately many women are and i'm not i mean again i don't want to be the same mystic but twenty many women are easily silenced because of different factors i'm talking about you know being intimidated into into staying silent or the social pressure to just don't make a big fuss about it don't want to make a scandal out of it all of these things i mean i'll bet you haven't heard that but i have no i have it's true but many are not and i'm simply saying turn your focus yes focus on the ones who was speaking out with no i would like to poke at those who are not speaking up in order to make them to speak up so that i think you are doing very. well i was just going to go back to what you're saying and just what the gender equality notion that you know there's a scale of economy in every industry in artistic production and publishing of the film business and what i would advocate is that if you're doing the same job you

should just be paid the same and of course that's become a big issue circling back to me too when times up it's not just access to those jobs it's if you're doing the same job are you actually being paid the same and there's been some scandalous numbers coming out about female and male costars in you know americans own productions and it's shaming people and it's i really have to say that the process of bringing this to light and bringing people out you know calling them out is very very effective i don't think that if it weren't for the shame of some of these high profile media figures being accused in such a public way and all their friends and neighbors and their families know exactly what they did that shame is quite powerful and it's also happening this sort of minute i think that they are actually has been you know give us the access to employment and access to equal pay that gets us a seat at. table on that means that we are we are be represented in

a broader way in the culture so you are sitting at the head of the table at the german film institute just tell us what are your next projects what how has the discussion everything we're talking about affected how you plan to. conduct these five years of your first contract will women and women's representation in film be an issue for you oh absolutely and in fact i've inherited an institution that was already very focused on that and my previous direct the tree was director was a woman and there are strong women in all of the you know department heads of that institution so we're screening women's films on a regular basis there's tremendous film festival activity where women's voices are being front and center and the content of our exhibitions and the content of our collections is trying to overcome the historical gap i mean often people say there aren't enough you know high profile talented women filmmakers to elect into the

academy for example they need to be given that opportunity and you need to find young filmmakers and you need to encourage mid career filmmakers because many many artists make a movie and then they don't end up getting another chance that ten years can go by before another project gets made so it's finding filmmakers at every stage of their career and giving them a public forum inviting them to speak to the audiences that's a very fundamental approach to also sharing that world cultures our museum is involved in showing film from every corner of the globe and that's a major major project for us is to make sure we're not only focused you know on one nationality or you know one more motive expression. ok. you've made the move into politics which i mentioned earlier and you talking now about this is the difference in culture or politics how your other goals changed in what way have they changed and is the. more acceptance for what you're bringing forward well it's not that my

goals have changed you know i've been fighting for women's rights and human rights in general because it's also to me it's i mean feminism includes everything it's about being a human being it's about fighting for equal rights and opportunities for everyone i mean. no matter what your race or sexuality or sexual orientation etc it's and this is very i mean all these matters all these issues are very much linked in in my part of the world and eleven not so fighting for freedom of expression and fighting for equal rights as much as fighting for the right of it for education for all kids not just the rich kids get to go and get a good education and this is also part of the problem because you know the masses are not having the opportunity to be aware to be a light and just have what they need to have in order to work their minds all of

these push me to go into politics but to me it's like a continual tea with what i have been doing so far and i will never stop being a writer ok that's that's good to hear from come over to you ok what's next on your agenda and in the corner of this incredibly complex i have i have a tree in the pie but i'm still working on the following steps of a book that i could go through when there is a picture book that i coauthored with their photographer which means our fruit which is picture good idea that displays. people from women from african descent with natural eye for hair because it's something that we didn't have a chance to speak about beauty standards but that and something that oppress women all women and especially women that are very far from the y. duty standards and the yes. exactly so we have interviewed a hundred more than one hundred one hundred forty. people women from african descent about the high. they feel wearing natural hair and the pace that we have to

get once paris because it's my place and we have made an exhibit based on the book which i first prize which was quite a success in paris so it's moving to some other parts of france in mass a in the suburbs of paris and i hope that it will be more meat really moving even in africa so publication to the public of the book is that very liberal afro and it's coated with a point it's only a photographer and we have people from the space scenes. of the former minister of justice. and people you know teachers accountants people who just enjoy it just a way to show that beauty includes everyone including people who doesn't who don't look like you know what you connect to beauty for women when you when you google beautiful women all the women white that you see are white women you never see asian women are black women so i wanted to just change that narrative about beauty

absolutely stir things up and get some more diversity or rashly what what are your are your you've been working for thirty five years as a feminist just slogging away and achieving so much what are your goals now. well i mean the simplest way to put it is my goal i think all our goal is to change the world and make it a more inclusive world where women are respected where everyone actually has a right to a life of dignity and respect it sounds like a big thing to say but to me that's what feminism is about but more specifically within my publishing house in india our goal our mandate our immediate priority is to focus as much as possible on the voices of marginalized women so to look at no cost for a man to look at korea women to look at muslim women women of different minorities to look at trans women and to capture their stories so that we can in some way

i knew once the story of india and indian women by including all of their diversity and not only focusing on the voices of women like me will come from prevailing notion who are educated and that's really we can do that in the few years that i as an older woman have left to publish i think i'll be happy i know we have different levels of optimism on this panel but just a quick answer from all of you just a really short when are we on the verge of an it with all the friction that we've just been discussing are we on the verge of a new type geist ellen aren't i certainly hope so i couldn't take it if we weren't moving in the right direction in some way oh yes mona definitely yeah samisen there it is. i don't. want to go exactly i wasn't real ok yes we are especially when because we have new means to connect we have never

been able to connect in such a way that's today and so that's something that makes me positive and optimistic good and lots of hope obviously we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't have hope especially about our optimism i don't know what to be on the verge on but whatever it is it's really important and it's. to change reality in very fundamental ways and we had better be ready for it thank you very much to all of our panel. will be that it. was a good time ellen haring said. ok i hear you thank you very much for being with us along the way here. for this very interesting and lively discussion and thank you to all of our audience give yourselves a round of applause. women in culture obviously working at the forefront for many many centuries and

they will continue to do so a lot of optimism in the room here and we are on the verge of something possibly a new tide guys. thanks for joining us. thank you thank you. thanks .

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environment magazine come. on b.t.w. . how's it feel of the well. where i come from but oh is that it does go it's just. it was chinese food so that's a measure of where i was always reminds me of home after decades of living in germany chinese food is one of the tables i miss the most but that taking a step back i see things i need to differentiate knowledge many of which first as going to go nations that exist to other parts of the wall which haven't been implemented in china that's new and not the chinese people wondering if they're forty cents a minute but if you don't have a ride to learn how to that is this is that job a job that of the mom how i see it and understand why i love my job because i tried

to do it exactly that hour a day my name of the uninsured and i it was added up your. audience. to moderate to. this is do believe news live from berlin total devastation that's how gullible drum describes areas of california to the states was ever wildfires the u.s. president visits rescue workers and victims come to promising to support the old guard he's now say around thirteen hundred people are still missing we'll go live to california for the latest also coming up.