inventors entrepreneurs and high tech professionals talk about their visions successes and day to day business to present. its. history you know everyone. used. to be sure. i'll. get you to africa starts december twelfth w. . hello and welcome to quadriga it is a fateful week for britain with just twenty weeks to go until the brics that deadline and especially e.u. summit looming this weekend the u.k. and the e.u. finally announced last week that they've reached a draft agreement but prime minister theresa may is facing

a storm of protest at home most especially within her own party in the hours after the deal was announced several of her own ministers resigned m.p.'s threatened to bring down the government parliamentary debate verged on the striper us may defense to deal with. especially you submit to this coming sunday is supposed to seal the deal but it's unclear that may come close on it at home. that battle for britain that's our topic and. it is a pleasure to welcome alex forrest fighting she's a d.w.i. recorder and a former westminster political correspondent she says too many british politicians have seen bret's it as a battle against a european empire in which the plucky brits would triumph the reality is very different and it's now hard to see if there will be any winners at all and it's a pleasure to welcome alan posner back to the show he is a german british author. writes for the german newspaper to bed and he says it is

a lose lose the deal is bad but no deal would be worse. and finally great to have john worst on the show he is a british blogger a principal adviser and member of the green party he says no one likes may's deal in britain leaving the e.u. with no deal is not an option either either for the u.k. nor for the e.u. so better a second referendum and no break set. so let me start out by asking you alex you say there are no winners john says better no breaks it at all would you say those sentiments are widely shared by people at home in the u.k. . no i don't think that they are i think that there are certainly more people who are coming round to the idea is that bracks it has clearly not been as straightforward as it was supposed to be and as it was promised to pay and that

there are a lot of possibilities that it could all go very very wrong for the u.k. but to say that this is that the whole of the u.k. is coming round to this idea is not true it's still very very divided both politically also across the country i can say for myself from my own point of view even within families it's still very divided there are people who are who would like to stay within the e.u. and a very anti breck's it and there are people who are absolutely gung ho that the u.k. is going to brics it own poster you say the deal is lose lose that opinion is shared by many people who look at the economic implications of rexx it but the fact is that the single biggest issue for many people who voted to leave was immigration and doesn't this current withdrawal arrangement that is on the table actually deliver at least in part on that. yes i mean if britain remains in

a customs union with the e.u. is the deal. which is part of the deal but is out of the common market out of the which which entails the free movement of people then obviously you're going to have less poles for instance going back and forth between britain and poland and less other europeans coming in and that was a big big big theme but. that's why i say this. you can argue i mean. if it's such a big problem to have a polish plumber or a polish bomb a den then you're going to be happy about this deal i really don't think that on reflection the english people who use the english not the british as a whole who vote who are in favor of brics it. really is a big problem is it's not as if polish plumbers are taking jobs away from british promise a bomb made to taking the jobs away from and in fact when there was a crisis a while back the poles went back home that showed how good it is to have an.

internal market is actually breathing as the e.u. does that but look yes this deal delivers on that so may ought to be able to sell it but she but she won't but that's leave that to later. react to that if you like but i'd also like to ask you about your opening statements raising the possibility of a second referendum and the u.k. in that case maybe staying in the e.u. after all you're not alone in this we're hearing a lot of calls for a second referendum we're hearing more and more people even theresa may saying look if this deal breaks down well maybe there will be no breaks it at all new words coming from her but as i understand it you are simultaneously applying for german citizenship so do you really believe in that possibility. i can't count on that i have to separate my own personal situation from what i think about the political analysis i'm applying to become german because my own personal future is here i'm quite at home in berlin and therefore i'm i'm i'm i come to terms with with

becoming german in terms of the politics of it i think the second referendum is the least bad outcome i don't suppose it's a big welcome such a thing because such a referendum very divisive and very very difficult and the time is short but look at the alternatives all of the alternatives of us leaving without a deal is disastrous for the british economy to resume a steel pleases no one the labor party will in any case votes against whatever is put forward by the conservatives and even even treason may. own party doesn't like what she's negotiated so out of that situation i see no way forward other than to essentially say westminster is blogs but put this issue back to the people in a second referendum this time britain might actually know what leave means because previous the previous time we didn't know what leave wouldn't now we know we know we roughly want to reason may's deal looks like you put that back to the people i fear how such a campaign would go it would be very emotional very negative and so that's why i say it's the least worst option there is

a possible wouldn't absolutely everything depend on the phrasing of that referendum and how leave you say everybody would know what leave means even after over two years of negotiations it is hard to discern what leave means frankly where the question is would it be the to resume a proposal of how to leave which you can at least work out roughly how that would work but ultimately there are other people who are making of the evolved humans so there is even been the question re should you have a three option referendum and the nightmare that would cause where you have the treason may deal no deal crashing out without an arrangement brussels and remain but how would you organize such a thing and would that be actually possible to organize a referendum in that way but these are the questions which people are posing themselves in britain and we are going to come back to the second referendum idea perhaps a bit later but let me ask all of you for a straight up and down a yes or no answer on this point given what the majority voted for in its original referendum nearly two and a half years ago isn't this deal that's on the table right now almost as good as

it's going to get i think it is as good as it's going to get i cannot really see what else to resume a could have got because because of island know the right and we'll come back to that in a moment the same opinion. i'm a slightly different opinion because there was a law in the labor party is used that no one in the referendum voted to make themselves poor and this vote on the this deal will make britain economically poorer because it takes britain out of the single ball that's my immigration point is that really the thing that people were so centrally concerned about alex one sentence on our land if you would because i want to look at tourism is dilemma in more detail but just one sentence on where that problem with our lies bearing in mind that many of our viewers are not as acquainted with all the details of this as some of us may be so the united kingdom which is great britain and northern ireland that's something that people often make a mistake over northern ireland is joined to the republic of ireland and the

republic of ireland is obviously in the e.u. and will stay in the e.u. northern ireland believe the e.u. along with the rest of person and that is the problem because if this so-called hard border between the north and the republic of ireland a big deal also because of the the former troubles that they've had within that country and they do not want in any way to threaten the peace process that was agreed twenty years ago so it's very very sensitive right and to resume a has the do you p.c. a northern irish party breathing down essentially her neck so we're going to look at that in a little more detail let's take a look now at what prime minister may is facing in the way of opposition within her own ranks. fabrics it is rex it wrecks it means bricks it and we're going to make a success of it i'm very clear threats it does mean that when theresa may became prime minister in twenty six b. she quickly adopted the credo were divorcing the u.k. from the e.u.

formally opposed to bricks and she said she wanted to create the best deal possible for great britain to better negotiate with the e.u. and to keep the hardliners in check she saw stronger backing with the snap general election she had miscalculated and lost the conservative majority calls for her resignation rose. grex it frex but to resubmit pushed on a miscalculated again when she underestimated just how hard the e.u. would negotiate her concessions to brussels caused outrage there was talk of a vote of no confidence she lost a number of key ministers including the brics that state secretary dominic rob yet still be dissuaded this is a deal which does deliver that which is in the national interest and i'm i going to see this through yes thank you to reach them a an iron lady or a tragic figure. john interestingly enough may receive some grudging

tributes this week even from her critics how do you see her as a historical figure what will the history books write i think she will be presented as a prime minister trying to do the best in a very very difficult situation leading a divided party where she has been trying to balance what the party needs on one hand and what she thinks the country could manage to live with on the other hand it's not a job perverts anyone. you wish on anyone it's very very tough ultimately i think she will probably because i still think rice will fail i think she will probably go down as the prime minister who brought rex it's a failure. but ultimately is there anything else she could do than the way that she's behaving at the moment she's actually playing quite a tactically good game in the conservative party she's bouncing the pragmatist on one hand and the brakes radicals on the other and she's towing a middle line between those groups and so i think she's actually making

a reasonably good effort out of a very very difficult situation alan staying with series in may what would you say is the biggest mistake she's made. the biggest mistake she made was switching from being. a remain convinced from a nod to suddenly saying bricks it means bricks it i mean who believes whatever she does she's got this stain on her character as has the whole almost the whole british political class they never believed in i mean the responsible people never believed in brits and now this suddenly going on and by the way if you had your new referendum what would what would be all these politicians they've flip flopped one way or the other i mean the whole political class that includes mrs made. the decision not convincing because if you flip flop no one knows what you mean so if you says brakes it means brakes what does she mean by brakes it means brakes and i think she's just she's a political i'm not going to use the word. i think is interesting with theresa may

because she. became prime minister she was home secretary and she was always i was a centuries the interior so yes of interior and i was in westminster as political correspondent as so i had dealings with all these departments and her department was very interesting because she's she's a very shy or quiet politician and she was she had these two attack dogs who looked off to her and prevented people from really getting to her too much so it was a very difficult department to penetrate at the time she was there she dick campaign to remain in the e.u. but she was a very reluctant campaigner she did not particularly want to side with the likes of david cameron jenny we really came out in favor of remained towards the very end and she weighed eyes what the what could happen over security if we if the u.k. obviously doesn't have the same access so i think it's you have to be careful when

you say that she's gone from remain to bricks and i think she was always a reluctant remain a bit she's completely she's clearly not a brick sitting here and is trying to make the best of a very very bad see. and i would love to spend the entire rest of this program talking about whether it's niche cameron that goes down in history versus the true villain of this piece but yes i think in in looking at what teresa mayes biggest mistakes might have been i would certainly put this strange alliance with the d u p the party that i mentioned earlier high up on the list because in many ways it has brought that irish dilemma to the fore and in some ways created a situation a double bind situation that is almost impossible to solve can you just say a word or two about that john and whether whether you see it that way do you see that as highly problematic or relationship with the do you pete but it might ultimately mean that the irish issue actually could get solved and breaks it in a certain way the irish question is much more important now than it would have been

had the d. u.p.a. not been in alliance with because of the concern about a hard border that would run through the heart of ireland and thereby once again divide ireland possibly even leading to violate rights but the question is alternately way do you draw that hard border do you draw between northern ireland in the republic of ireland or do you draw it in the irish sea or do not your border talking recently your options and as a result of the do you piece saying under no circumstances should north up more than either be treated differently than the rest of the u.k. it is unacceptable that border should essentially be in the irish sea as a result of that and not just push to resume a towards a slightly more pragmatic breaks a position by keeping the the whole of the u.k. temporarily at least in the customs union so ultimately to resume a's bricks it is a little bit more pragmatic ultimately as a result of the role that the de u.p.a. has played now you wouldn't actually think that from that the hardline vocabulary being used by the do you pay but ultimately the do you p.c.

has pushed britain towards a slightly more pragmatic brakes solution than would otherwise have been the case but alan that is part of what the breads the tears the hard line exit. supporters most hate about this deal they're worried that this temporary thaw on ireland namely by keeping britain in the customs union temporarily could become a long term solution where the u.k. has the worst of all possible worlds namely it's still part of the e.u. but it doesn't even have a voice exactly and they're right of course that i mean that what's going to happen if cooler heads prevail if may gets a deal through which is by no means certain we've heard why if she got a deal through it's the only possible situation because this is it's it is as you say using these quotation marks a temporary solution for britain to stay in the customs union but for britain to exit is not longer within westminster's power it's going to be decided by european

judges as well as the british as the british side is going to be a if the if the if the e.u. says no you can't leave the customs union then they crash out then you have the same situation they're trying to avoid now further down the line so i think the. if the if money gets a deal through that means britain stays in the customs union indefinitely and i think the fact that the brics it is so angry and concerned about northern ireland this irish border. particular staying in the customs union is because come so the customs union this whole idea wouldn't actually kick in until after the transition period which is where we're sort of in a bit of a fudge until december twenty twenty it could of course be extended as has possibly been offered by kicking the can down the can down the road and i think the point is that the brics it is also why read now that actually they're not going to be able to agree this free trade agreement with the e.u.

off to that finish that that's why they're worried that this backstop that is customs union idea is going to happen and they won't be able to ever get out of it so they will effectively stay in the e.u. alex you say you as a westminster political correspondent knew a lot of these figures we often perceive these hardcore bricks to tears whether it's boris johnson or the others that whom we saw in the piece as essentially acting on some sort of personal opportunistic basis is that right or is it too simple i'd say that some of them genuinely believe that everything about that is wrong and they are ideologically opposed to it and i can name various ministers who i have spoken to over the years who really really dislike the e.u. and think that the u.k. needs its sovereignty about the need to get out there are others and i would say boris johnson is a good example of an opportunist because actually you may remember a couple of years ago he wrote an article for one of the english newspapers the

daily telegraph in which he said actually i'm i'm going to buck bricks it but he'd also written the other side which also got out and said he wasn't even clear and he has shaken the chosen the path to be a bright city and to lead from the front but i. they are not convincing just look at what happened to his brother who was in the government until two weeks ago gerry johnson he quit his government role saying that he not only opposes breck's it but he wants that to be a second referendum so even with him boris johnson's own family is very divided before we take a look at where it all goes from here let's take a look at the e.u. side in all of this alex just reminded us that the brics a two years say everything about the e.u. is wrong from the start the european union has made it clear that certain koori you principles like the link between free movement of goods and free movement of labor were non negotiable nonetheless you leaders say that the deal that's now on the

table does reflect concessions on both sides let's take a look. i needed it but in a new lease better than no deal i think that is the order of the day when we have to advertise that we live on the table now is the best of the possible deal usually the best i think there's no better russianness but this crazy brags that diverts the accomplice off the bricks that compromise currently on the table is truly custer called a compromise both sides have made concessions and i hope that everyone deals with it responsibly now which will endure we are in fact at the decisive moment in this process no one no one should lose sight of the process the progress that we have been achieved dressers and even longer the u.s. prepared for a final deal with the united kingdom in november. we also prepared for a low decent idea. but of course we are best prepared for

a number of similar you. alan a number of european union leaders made it clear from the start that they thought we need to make an example of britain in order to prevent other countries from going down the same path from trying to leave the e.u. . if that tough negotiating stance that has been taken wants to resist man made efforts to get by and won't europeans also pay a price. we will pay of prizes europeans anyway whatever happens because breaks it is just a lose lose situation i think the european union has as negotiated very carefully. to get britain within the customs union but out of the of the common law common markets no free movement of people that's what people worried about in britain you said it in your opening question to me so european give union is given may some things you can negotiate on it's not their fault that she's not going be able to

get it through parliament for. john i asked earlier about may's biggest mistake what about the e.u. is what about brussels biggest mistake i think that the european union side has maybe been a bit slow to communicate its interests in this negotiation. to try to explain to the british population why they're behaving in that way and i think also the e.u. side if it did old summit lee won't true trying to find a way of keeping britain close to the european union in some way the sometimes its tone has been a little bit rude children a little bit harsh but maybe the european union has to do that because it's respecting its own interests looking backwards now i think the european union i agree with alan has negotiated this extremely well has stood united is well prepared at michoud bonnie has been an extremely professional go shows that so much of european union side overall i must say has performed above my expectations in

this negotiation so full alex has said she's staying away from the summit on sunday if there's any sign that other countries are looking for last minute tweaking on this deal and by that she does not mean only britain what do you think are we actually going to see that summit take place in an orderly fashion yes i think it will take place because i think that the are going to persuade spain and france and the other countries who are concerned about what's going to happen in the future with their talk about talking about fishing rights because at the moment that's not included in this dale and they were they're not going to have access to british waters spain seventy bring up gibraltar which by the way was always an issue which breaks it is a a no i wasn't mentioned before when northern ireland was so i think that there are very big real issues but i still think it's going to go ahead on sunday and they will reach agreement because the twenty seven have been united oh and we heard you saying in that report just now that the e.u. is prepared for a disorderly no exit no deal breaks it do you think it really is. no i think

that's posturing just like by the way the hard line was was was posturing it's for certain sections of the european public which which are which want to be on the source of a britain of course he's saying well ok you do it will see what happens i don't think europe is prepared but it should it should prepare my suggestion would be to say ok go we'll keep still behave as if the customs union was in place you can still export to us and you can come back to this deal if you want to. it's up to you to push the you know push the responsibility firmly towards the brits but the question is when does the pain kick in and wages the pain taking and see if there are cures of trucks lining up in dover. or this there is a pharmaceutical that type of thing or or no legal arrangement to allow the planes to fly for example because if if britain is outside of the european aviation safety

area those kind of things that pressure will come to bear much more quickly on the u.k. side the move comes around the european union side will be running out of drugs and speaking of pain last question to all of you with the request for a very short answer or title asked is this the battle for britain how will britain be different five years from now how will you u.k. relations be different five years from now alex oh my goodness it so depends where the bracks it happens if it does happen the u.k. is going to be desperately trying to get a free trade agreement with the access to everything it has at the moment and it's going to be extremely difficult it breaks it doesn't happen. but what has to happen and has to happen is the west has to sit together and you know whatever it takes and the west means present european union president of the states it doesn't look like that at the moment that's what we have to concentrate minds of. britain five years from now are still going to be a politically very divided and complicated place looking to a certain set even words. i do think however that britain put to use multiple. it's

easy to do that to britain doesn't practice. thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to all of you out there for it say for joining us cæsar. move. move move. move. move move move. move move move. move move. move. move. move

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digital. stars you know maybe twenty foot long double. this is d. w. news coming to you live from berlin gunmen stormed the chinese consulate in the pakistani city of karachi an intense hour long shootout left three gunmen in at least two policemen dead but no chinese diplomats in stop at the end of the consulate were hurt also coming out britain's prime minister theresa may tells parliament she's got the best possible divorce deal from the e.u.

but spain's prime minister is pushing to go.