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tv   Quadriga - Pact or Panic Can Migration Be Controlled  Deutsche Welle  November 29, 2018 10:30pm-11:01pm CET

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every call brings them closer together. but it hurts because they feel powerless to help. the continues to haunt those who fled from syria. the war on my phone our two part documentary starts december eighth on t w. a lot of very warm welcome to quadriga coming to you from the heart of bird later this week we're focusing on the growing international over the united nations migration pact the documented use to be adopted next month aims to provide a framework for safe orderly and regular migration that has to be
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a good thing for the many millions of people on the move across the world but it's already triggered fierce debates indeed to the u.s. australia israel under a number of european countries so they won't be endorsing the agreement which they see as an infringement of their sovereignty leading to further mass migration so the question here on quadriga this week is packed or panic can migrations be controlled and to discuss that question i'm joined here in the studio by three astute observers and a lists beginning with and i will follow as founder and c.e.o. of migration that's a network supporting social projects working with migrants and an argues that we should take the pact as a starting point for future cooperation and civil society engagement where though she says the politicians alarming narrative also with us is matthew carney chief europe correspondent with politico who argues that unfortunately populists of
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poison the debate to such an extent of the facts about it don't matter and a warm welcome to to do it your. army who is a presenter and correspondent with t.w. based here in berlin and edith say he's migration as natural as the flow of rivers we can channel it slow it down. but it will always be on the move the pact is an acknowledgment of the inevitable. under let's begin with you have i might the parents everybody's talking about it it's jus to be indorsed america's morocco in just about two weeks time and u.n. secretary general antonio good tera shows described as a truly historic agreement what makes it so important what makes it so important is that for the first time everyone i greet back in two thousand and sixteen that it was a topic that needed to be this cost right of course because of recent situations happening with the so-called crisis of two thousand and fifteen that he europe so so we have
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to look at a story go because of that and also because back then so it's been eighteen months the leaders states all the members the one hundred ninety three countries they had the opportunity to have open a way of discussions with the civil society ok those are the stories those are the countries behind this bill to boot the real question is i mean you come into contact with migrants on a normal daily basis of what how will it affect their lives but that doesn't affect their lives first of all they don't know about this because at the end of the day what you get when you read through the twenty three points of the global compact are things that should have been a radius that wish i mean wishing dignifying migrants wherever to go number one and number two there have been and there has been lots of why the discussions in the civil society are right so i guess this is a it's a call to the members states to always include the migrant perspective indeed if migration is undoubtedly a defining issue of our global linked world at the moment if you call it to the
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park to knowledge when to the inevitable what you mean by that basically just what that this is something that has been happening for decades it's only now that the world is finally sitting down and saying hey we need a document that gives us a free look on how to work around this and it's too late i mean it's coming really quite late in the twenty fifteen crisis is obviously what exacerbated it but in my opinion this is a conversation that should have been happening at least ten years before twenty fifteen you say it's too late you say should have happened. decade ago it's been described by its critics as to flourish and non-binding a non-binding compromise told me more non-binding is better than nothing in my opinion because again going back to where the migrants are coming from it first of all acknowledges them as human beings because what this document is trying to do is establish a communication framework between the migrants and between the host countries why you here what can we do for you and how do we make it so that you are able to go back to your countries it opens up that dialogue if all this is so obvious why has
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it come so late that's the question i've been asking and that's why i'm saying that it should have happened at least ten years before i believe it's because europe was finally forced to face this in twenty fifteen migration has been happening in the south and hemisphere for a very very long time and i don't know if there are any kinds of frameworks such as this one but when the ship started docking on the mediterranean sea was then the europeans thought wow we need to start doing something about this now a few the park used to float non-binding and it has also come out of the blue and been badly communicated. well i wouldn't go that far i think that a lot of people have been paying attention to what the un has been talking about over the last couple of years and maybe the media is partly to blame for that the populist especially in europe haven't been asleep at the switch and they quickly seized on to this agreement and have made it really appear to be something that it's not i would i would actually say that migration it hasn't just been an issue
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for decades i would say it's been an issue for hundreds of years it's been a reality for hundreds of years if not thousands of years it's always been something that the world has had to deal with in various ways and this latest discussion i think is just a way to focus attention on it and it was obviously driven by what happened in two thousand and fifteen but it reminds me a little bit of the kyoto protocol back in the early one nine hundred ninety s. where the global community said this is an issue that we need to pay more attention to we need to devote more resources about it to it and we need to have serious discussions about it so while it might be toothless yes on the other hand it does stablished basic standards that most countries including germany and most european countries are hearing to anyway. well actually what i would like to see reacting toothless and why the critics hard are saying this is because it doesn't bring up real mechanisms how to tackle the issue right i mean many many critics around
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because they're saying ok so how do we do it is the main question we do with immigration how do we do so so when you have a document which is largely bake and wants to be a global global issue to be this cost is still we lack of the mechanisms and how do we do it so let's discuss internally about this integrations which i would like to put it i would like to say it's about inclusion let's talk about the process of migrants right and perhaps many where waiting the comp i would have said how this process should look like or where to get the best practices which definitely not in europe. i think that the concept of dealing with migration is already defeatist how do we deal on sept of dealing with migration has already been defeated yeah because what are we dealing with exactly the movement of people we've already had for less you that this is always happened and it will continue to happen so perhaps we need to change the language and figure out how to deal with irregular migration
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which we then call illegal and i don't know what people in your industry say about that but i have a big problem with critics on the right would say you're moving from. illegal to irregular you're making it less easy to prevent people from coming to the prosperous west you know if anything i am saying that we should start looking at why these people moving in the first place as opposed to trying to deal with their movement after the fact and that's where i think the language would really be helpful it's interesting. if you're talking about it being part of the human experience throughout history migration people move the vision and guiding principle searching of the parent actually mention that and it says it is a source of prosperity innovation and sustainable development why is there no problem why is migration a problem at all why is it being addressed as a problem or is that the paradigm shift that we're now seeing it's been seen a problem and actually the right wing is taking advantage of that and that's also
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why i said we have to be where in fact if there's snow country agreeing with this global compact then we have to look internally into us if we don't one find in a safe my creation of pathways for all the people on the move who are we as a humanity right so let's take a look on the people who are. are denying this and i opposed to this so it is definitely a narrative and the populous where you see migration this place because it is decreasing the migration flows are decreasing in europe and even in united states. well i think also if we're honest it is a challenge for societies to deal with large influxes of of migrants and this is also always been the case it's been the case in the united states if you look back over the centuries the waves of migrants that came to the united states from italy from ireland and places it was always controversial for a while there were there were there was always racism and there always attacks on the migrants because there was a sense that too many of them were coming at once and this is what you're feeling
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in europe at the moment but i think there's too little focus on the benefits of migration over time to countries and especially in europe which is aging very rapidly they're going to need a younger population to support many of the systems that people you know have become become useful used to hear all of the social programs and so forth and i think that there's too little discussion about that there's a lot of discussion about the downsides the dangers and so forth and there's a lot of discussion about integration but i think you know the real problem in europe especially in germany i think at the moment is that there's this sense that you can integrate people and that nothing is going to change in society that germany is going to stay just as it is and that's that's not the case and integration does change societies most people would argue many would argue for the better but it's just it's inevitable and i think this this sense that the populists are sort of projecting now that well if we manage migration of or if we prevent
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migration then these changes one occurs just completely unrealistic ok well thank you for all that you mention the united states matthew let's let's go to what is currently one of the world's most visible migration hot spots the city of two one on the u.s. mexican border where thousands of central americans mainly from honduras and guatemala are hoping to make their way to the u.s. but president trump says they won't be allowed in and among the local mexican population signs of aggression towards the migrants. mexicans are protesting against refugees passing through their country louder and louder. needed we don't want you to get out. many of the local population see the migrants as an expensive burden and a threat. they sound much like u.s. president trump they label the migrant caravan and invasion. the migrants
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sleeping in provide shelters to keep tensions down people already have imposed a curfew. they did it for money they have every right to protest they don't want us here but even so the mexicans are good people like us and we're just passing through we don't want to stay. but they know what to expect the united states border communication compact to keep people from fleeing their homes. that's an interesting question but i know for us what i'd like to ask you is as somebody from the region wall to wall thoughts go through your head when you see those reports of those scenes from the border into. i guess a humanity we half arrived to a peak of lack of empathy you know that for many of them they're flameout terrible and violent backgrounds so they are asylum seekers and in order to seek for an
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asylum in united states you have to be in their lands so for beating them it's totally inhuman and even against the law so so what are we talking about here right we should we should actually reframing this is something that in the global compact and perhaps the discussions should be on starting point from now on for example let's define who are migrants less define who are refugees refugees are not only the ones worst caping are the ones where escaping then ger people from central america are scaping then prosecuted but they're not recognized as refugees for instance right so they started that's what is called the us firing migrants and they have rights and we should protect them and he does what goes through your head then given what on earth has been saying when you hear those mexicans are saying get lost beaches get away we don't want you here. i'm completely heartbroken because i have interviewed people who have been on the boats from africa trying to get into europe and they have put themselves through the most difficult most
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dangerous situations and they don't want to be doing that and we know this because since the talks began between every trip and if you'll be on peace building the number of migrants has reduced from those countries and it shows that they're not going voluntarily they would rather not actually so to hear other people receive them as though they are nothing not human beings in fact that's what he does it eliminates the dignity but it also makes migrants objects just passing things and that for me is truly heartbreaking to the marriage to want to so people should be given their dignity their dignity should be should be self evident is not what is not what the park is going to achieve it's what it says it aspires to do at least on paper that's what it looks like and the big dialogue of course or rather the big conversation has been on how to implement it particularly on a country to country basis because what germany things is dignified might not be what kenya for example thinks is dignified and these are some of the blind spots
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and perhaps the loopholes that the document has that might need to be addressed in the future but like and i do agree that it's a starting point it's a great place to begin. when you when you talk about the interviews that you've had for example the access you've got to the story would you say that there's a i mean i know it's very difficult to generalize because africa has got so many people who are coming to europe to start better lives but they've all many african countries also host countries so i'm wondering is there an african perspective on all this that which will. well africans a very very good question i know yeah but not to generalize or anything but the general sentiment is that of anger and despondency actually because africans have been left out of this conversation unlike gratian for a very long time it's only twenty fifteen that the. well suddenly realizes an entire continent that's also contributing to the flow of like needs to be put to the table that needs to be brought into the conversation so brought in
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a little too late and often when the conversation of migration comes up in the context of africa it's always those people who are trying to come in how do you keep them on the continent that's usually the frame of the narrative so you can understand why i also quite upset about that people have an automatic human right to migrate i don't think you should be asking me because i'm a beneficiary of migration to begin with what i do to ultimately that is the ironic thing i do believe that every country has its power for sovereignty and they determine who gets in and out of their borders. but just based on humanity come on people are feeling war they're fleeing disease they're fleeing bad economic situations and to turn them away without the benefit of even assessing this situation is unacceptable. matthew what would you say to people have a right to migrate to countries have. the same time right to say to people turn
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them back and send them home i think they do in the exercise right and all of these countries have a legal framework for for dealing with these issues germany does every european country does the united states does i think though that we also should recognize the fact that a lot of countries benefit from what is you know referred to as as as a legal migration and where i come from i grew up near that border in arizona and there was a constant flow of illegal migrants illegal aliens as we called them coming over the border particularly for the for the harvest they would work in the fields and earn some money and then and then go back to mexico or farther south and this was completely normal and both sides benefited from it i think what has changed now is that. you know populous in particular are using this issue to. create these these deep divides in the society and to imply that this is
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a danger to you know the societies in the west when it's always it's always been always been there not only has it always happened but this is why what is happening now why is why is the argument suddenly so lopsided given that we know that well three point four three three somewhere between three and four percent of the global population are migrants and they generate ten percent of global g.d.p. these are known facts well i think i think one factor in europe is the wood which isn't often discussed is the element of islam. and the linkage that we've seen you know the fears of terrorism a lot of muslims coming into predominantly christian areas i think that is what is unnerved a lot of people and has made this latest wave somewhat different say than what happened in the one nine hundred ninety s. where you had the disintegration of yugoslavia and a lot of people coming out from yugoslavia and i think in the united states the
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difference is that previously when migrants came they were limited to you know if a few areas in the southwest of the united states where i'm from they didn't tend to disperse into the rest of the country and that has changed in recent years and trump has recognized that you know this is something that has unnerved a lot of people especially in rural communities where you know they were pretty. high margin is over over decades or over hundreds of years and all the sudden they have you know little little little little pockets of south americans living you know on the edge of town and you know this is this is this is a change but you know i think people need to accept that there are there are benefits from it the cheap labor that the migrants offer is something that all western societies. have benefited greatly from cheap labor and very often very skilled people you know. as we have seen the international community will be meeting in morocco shortly to ratify the global compact for safe orderly and
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regular migration at least that is the idea but there's suddenly a growing list of nations who are changing their minds and heading for the door. the united nations began negotiating its migration compact in twenty sixteen the united states never took part. last july the first to bail out was australia and then hungary. but we would like you for the government considers the un global compact on migration as dangerous for the entire world because it inspires millions to leave their homes that's your thought of which my good we're not. shortly afterwards austria declared that it would not be signing the compact because the term migration was still too fuzzy. then bulgaria opted out stating that the compact would endanger national interest. poland followed suit.
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we believe that america should greenland is not a solution for the migration crisis on the contrary it would only intensify the crisis. czech is withholding its signature to. i don't like this compact says czech prime minister andre bobbish. israel croatia and slovakia to almost every day another country opts out is the criticism of the compact justified. it's called a global compact for migration it is how important is that proposition for depends who's reading it like i said if the unaware of this then it makes no difference it's just a high level conversation happening between governments it needs to really trickle down to the people who are affected full of those like. because at the moment the conversation has been hijacked as matthew said by the far right and we're focusing
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on what they are trying to correct their own. statements as opposed to really listening to them like figuring out what works for you but what is the argument to the far right we had the. foreign minister in that report it's uncertain i ring it will inspire you millions of people to to to get on the move the world that's just outright propaganda i am hearing germany voluntary you have choice and agency i wasn't brought here by war disease and it's still a difficult transition it's not easy to live in a country that's not yours i just don't see how millions of people could one day decide not that this is global compact i know want to go live in hungary. and that just goes back to maine mishal point of exclusion of the actual migrants they don't know what's bringing them here so they can't possibly know what will keep them away . what i really like about the global compact if i thought of the beginning the potential it has to start a discussion at least i have been personally invited to even my are going to say
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show host that march this year a global compact consultations of the civil society and migrant labor of any seychelles which was led by to be larger foundations that belongs to a company so if members of the civil society which are now this are really the government are fostering this discussion then this is the moment to engage states and as of the moment doing gauge the larger organizations as well to open the discussion we have to include more migrants more regular migrants the ones who are in the streets then once who are not being entered for nurse or owning their own organization we need to him by them to discuss this when you were saying about integration how this intuition look like how this affects our society for the better definitely but we see in europe every system so the change to be open to new cultures to be open to new opportunities do you see resistance to change in germany . well i have seen a shift in the last two years ever since i arrived and people were welcoming
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especially the ones who were fleeing from from the middle east back then and who are they right now right many of them many projects have been created but you have seen a shift in the narrative. you have seen the the only fight that if they exist today and it's growing in every in every region where people are voting that is telling you something free in both directions next year as well absolutely in other countries like canada for instance whether going to they're going to elections and there also are frey that migration is also going to be a topic we need to discuss about the benefits that migration brings i was sharing earlier. the united states had to leave it west not publicly and widely discussed that in the last decade only from the ones who have refugee status they contributed to just in other words they left sixty three billion dollars in revenues only with the ones who have a legal status or refugee status what about the ones that we're not tracking their
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remittances for the once a we're not tracking their incomes. so i guess the global compact. i mean tristana starting point to open the discussion and talk about the benefits instead of thinking that this is going to come. it is i'm interested in your final thoughts were running out of time because there's a question we start at the beginning of the show was come migration be controlled ok so i'd like to ask you a double question resulted without can migration be controlled should migration be controlled can migration be controlled i think. it should be regulated definitely and i think in the conversation about regulation the powerful should also have a conversation with themselves. the western nations that are these countries who are. democratic nations. in this field. ok thank you very much for those wonderful thank you all preparing. so i was. showing you how the
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food for thought which i hope is the case join us next week until then bye bye i'm sure.
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the scene of the sounds of silence. come on till. he's a dad finding abandon ship. and treasure. waiting to take one final.
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moment. thirty minutes d.w. . they make a commitment. they find solutions. they conspire to. africa on the moon. stories from both people making a difference shaping their nation. and their continent of africa on the move the stories about motivational change makers taking their destinies into their own hands. d.w. multimedia series from africa. dot com from africa.
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oh and fuller. as our favorite. angle for cutting the back of love with. the us i have a little al gore first but i have i wanna go up from. out of left where i have family and warner. and i have a problem. i will follow. football metaphor. or format i want. or i were arming and guess i will.
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read them all and they're. right i am a man. like this at. any. us president donald trump's former lawyer michael cohen has pleaded guilty to lying to congress about a trump real estate deal in russia cohen is cooperating with special prosecutor robert miller and his investigation into possible russian interference in the two thousand and sixteen presidential election trump called cohen weak and said he.


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