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tv   Conflict Zone - Brexit Special How did we get here  Deutsche Welle  January 30, 2019 8:30pm-9:00pm CET

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hey this is. video game music sounded like thirty years ago. today's tracks take the experience to another level partly thanks to him talk composer no bull with grey matter. featured in. his music is bound to give you. your. video game music starts february twenty fifth on d w. after two years of division and deadlock britain is now racing towards its deadline in march to leave the european union in a conflict so special this week we'll look back at some of the key arguments for the shape this often angry debate who was telling the truth and who wasn't.
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one of the accusations against the leafs side is that you consistently fail to articulate what the british economy would look like after bracks. last december we got a flash of real honesty from nigel farage at the oxford union when he said that i will accept that none of us knows what the risks if we leave the european union. most momentous decision the british are being required to take in forty years. and you know what the risks are so not sort of fly with me and we'll see what happens yes yes but that's it isn't it is the whole point is that if we don't think the country is worth more than then the whole point is if we put the x in the box in the right box on the ballot paper we then have two years of hopefully
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a responsible government hopefully a responsible chain that will negotiate a at exit package which is hundred one is upset even sure it's like surely isn't it may be you know with luck yes as is this is a huge gamble you want the british people and it's a huge it's a huge gamble for both sides and nervous time for you coming up to the referendum so nervous that you've even started talk about what it would be like to lose haven't you. well what i was actually trying to do was say that the leave campaign has made no attempt at all to describe what a post that u.k. would look like so the question i was raising was if we were to vote to me which are clearly hoped that we weren't what would the mandate be because there's a huge difference between staying in the single market or leaving it for my residence in those you sense defeat no i'm raising it now because i think it's really important that when people go to the ballot box on the twenty third of june
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they understand what leave means and at the moment there's a black hole where there was no questions even if they vote believe they know what they don't want they don't want free movement they don't want to massive contributions to the un they don't want to be governed by laws made in brussels today precisely to be quite clear what they don't want precisely the point that if you want to water that does no i would i'm saying is if the op option on the table is to stay in the single market like norway it's not in the but in the single market you have to accept free movement of people and you have to pay into the e.u. that what that is that's what i want you to leave campaign below is it is not of the world the last i looked there. twenty three different models that they've proposed you never stretch the fact in this campaign in every campaign some people have and no i don't think i ever did but some people on both sides used good and bad arguments but if you saw the people involved leave using bad arguments music was needed look there were always some losing argument the whole country was
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involved in this campaign so of course there were good and bad arguments that's also an excuse for misleading people i don't think i've misled and what about your campaign as you are leading right of the campaign some people who were campaigning for early vote used bad are you. did you want to rein them in well. in life we are responsible for what we do right we're not responsible for every ally who might have reached the same position as you were saying let me first revoke leave camp you will know my son by name by what is it you are in the weekly gallery about myself the strategy the strategy you have to answer to please do well here are a number of things that were said during the campaign that i think may now be fairly decried as false we were told that there would be an emergency budget that would have to be emergency tax rises we're now being told will be tax cuts we were told there are immigration officers. that the french government as long as that's not going to have as a consequence for what the other side said i'm only going to hold you responsible for what you said and mind your candor your sense of what i said let's do course first with what appeared to be radically conflicting claims by you and the leading
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lights in your campaign right after the vote you cause something of a stir on television by saying that you favored the free movement of workers to and from the u.k. it means free movement of labor you said it doesn't mean citizenship my question is at what point did you declare in the campaign vote it'll mean freeman throughout it every minute of every nearly every year well actually give me one example program one example if you'll allow me to go well tonight on that very program sitting around that very table with that very same interview at the start of the campaign i had said exactly the same thing i written a book called why vote leave which sets it all out which sold twenty thousand copies are hardly think i can accuse of which something this sound a small brittle mean friel years if not most of late oh yes it does we need first of all to trigger of article fifty eight by the government of mrs may and the proposal the basic idea that i have in this negotiation is not to destroy utopian
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union in this exercise because what the british wanted was some of the british people won because forty eight percent had voted its way made of the euro but while the government one is to make a split between freedom in europe freedom of goods freedom of services. freedom of capital what they want to do is to make a split between destry freedoms and the freedom of movement of people and we shall never accept that the unity of the four freedoms for all citizens is a key element and if somebody is negotiating and saying we will never accept that so the negotiations now we will never accept to do the european union you cannot expect that if the british people or the majority of the british people want to go out of the european union that we shall destroy utopian union i have to defend the interests of european citizens but i have to defend the interests of the german citizens the belgian citizens who want to keep the european union because it's in
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their advantage. is their work is a job that what is happening the central issue is what is more important the single market or freedom of movement prime minister there is a maze saying yes a migration from the e.u. will be cut so what will happen you are you know what will happen what she wants is very clear she has announced it becomes a party convention a few weeks ago she announced that she wants a kind of free trade agreement which do your opinion so that will be to make a station but what we don't ever a negotiation when one side is saying never no no no it's about of that it's about as a free trader what what we don't what we shall never accept is to undo to destroy the internal market to destroy the utopian union by saying to the people ok freedom of movement is not long or a basic principle of the union. let's be honest the freedom of movement is key for
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the european union the freedom of travel the possibility for german people to work in to another country that is the key. we will never again never destroy so were is the negotiation case now. the meters are saying very clearly we don't want to have that and no and that is the reason why they didn't want to leave you to be in union that's the point and the question is now what is the new relationship between the european union and great britain one of the great britain has left the european union and that will be the topic of the niggas and on your heart in the you even going to exist in five years time in some sense times absolute as it is now and as it is now even stronger with the same members having in mind that five years ago we had the economic crisis see europe we have still an economic crisis island and still have the intelligence we are today stronger we have to take
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reading great i mean some left having their exit france having elections we see that the braxton's believe that the enter situation there people understand how important this union is because today not poland in paris is a problem is press that london has a big problem is that what i was saying here is this it would be a bad thing for the peoples of europe if the political class of europe willfully go for a bad deal with britain because they want to punish us they will discourage other people leaving the club and i do not think that across much of europe but the political elites are held in a high degree of regard so you can certainly accuse me of attacking the european elites but my goodness me they've given me something all right here this from the german car manufacturers you told everyone in britain of course the germans will never allow terrorists to be slapped on the car exports to britain would want it they wouldn't want it ok so what did chancellor merkel tell the world she said the internal cohesion of the e.u. would come before defending german exports to the u.k.
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the association of car manufacturers says the future of the e.u. is more important than short term exports or you know what this actually places the ads even more this gives me the this gives me an even bigger card but i thought i had to play because here is why don't you just. god that's what they're telling a little bit but i don't give a damn card oh come on the relationship between big business big banks and big politics is what it is they don't want things to change they like the status quo the way that it is but i bet you that if we went to a bar in munich the seedling i met some german car workers and had this conversation what they care about their jobs what they care about a cosby making that the base isn't going to go your route just for that i'm not talking to the bosses i'm talking to the european pen the ones who make the decisions want to do something and saying ok the european elections take place a few weeks later what i want to try to do is a guarantee of success what i want to try to do is to make sure that those m.e.p.
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s. who are up for reelection are asked by their electorates are you going to vote for sensible trade deal are you going to vote for our jobs because you know one thing's for certain there are a one point three million people in germany whose jobs rely on exports to the u.k. market so what happens if it all goes wrong and we haven't even started what have the negotiations you you said in twenty fifteen you said in twenty fifteen at the oxford union none of us knows what the risks are if we leave the european union none of us knows what the risks are if we stay in the year that is run so we were left to just you know take your bravado and your what it's very simple and your sure and some of it very simple we're left to do that very simple you could never predict the future exactly whatever side of the referendum or are you in as you say you'd want what anyone thinks he knows the future should be retard they should have a default to do about. the real question with that referendum. was
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should we be responsible as a nation with its own identity for making the key positions that determine our future i want to get them right or get them wrong genuinely once every four or five years have the chance to hope to work out the people who took those decisions or do we think our future better to be a small voice as part of a bigger new state and i've been as you know objective about that as i possibly can but that's what the referendum was about what we opted for not by a massive barge of what we opted for was making our own decisions and steering our own ship and that i believe to be right it off circumstances here's a context which is really important we've said that at the end of this process when people know what the breaks that deal what leaving the european union might look like we've got a few answers that we don't have at the moment then you give the people of scotland a choice and what's been fascinating as a way that's been breached by politicians across the european institutions and
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across europe as well and serve the party is almost completely united around the process of leaving the european union and also by the way on leaving but it's the mechanics it's the mechanics who are the negotiation excuse me do know the outcome of the negotiations or we're talking or they can it's with the party does give me the only advice i got out of the government the got just you know they want to know i could go the government doesn't even know what it was you know either so we're in the middle of a negotiation my point is you negotiate that's what you do you negotiate with the european union european union has to know what it wants this government does you say it oh well actually i did read the other day that a number of people in the european either don't agree with the commission for example i think it was the austrian finance minister maybe wrong about exactly what job he holds maybe it was a commission i can't remember they actually said quite clearly that the u.k. was in an incredibly strong position because the european union needed the trade we also had the fire he's the only one is in the is the only one that we finished the finance minister of a very election mrs merkel the other day about making sure that she didn't screw up the negotiations because there are a million and
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a half jobs in bavaria an export to the. u.k. of machine tools and cars alone there are plenty as i talk to a lot of european businesses i was talking to a person the other day that does a low tech product is a belgian manufacturer he would use of potatoes he said the last thing we need in europe is a tariff wall because my business will go down the tubes i'm poor lots of people i said have you spoken to your politicians he said we're talking to them now so before we just get this out of kilter the european union is in a position we're not altogether completely united and they also recognize that they do need a trade deal they're not telling you a deal that is you know go shoot it until i know bit more about traders and you do it not only trade deals let me tell you something about this trade deal i'm able to stop interrupting me and just let me tell you about a trade deal right you might learn something here's what has to happen as we leave the european union we will also reenter the w t o as a voting member were a member but we're not a voting member now the show jewels that are owned by the e.u. actually have a financial tag to them so unless they agree with us the amount of money that we
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pay to take some of those shows jewels relevant to us and lodge them at the w t o they will end up as the e.u. spending a great deal more money for less potency now here's the point they have to settle that that's not they might they have to settle that at the time we leave otherwise they pick up a bigger bill so mr barney a knows very well that until this for example is settled nothing is settled but we are we are there's no point in revisiting history there's no dance in the country for a further general election what their arguments for from i know from standing on doorsteps in my constituency is for the u.k. government to proceed with the negotiations and then that the best possible deal so that's why all these things should be very much explored the my point is that in trying to get a solution that kate's both remain as and bricks are two years britain seems to be reduced to putting forward ideas that are pretty much unworkable is the. really the
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best your party can do well i think that all options have to be on the table until there was an objective well i think the understanding is understanding of the why things are rejected now the fact that referendum has been hugely divisive in this country and i do think one of the mistakes made early on was not trying to acknowledge that whilst they leave campaign of one sixteen million people forty eight percent of those who voted had not voted for this so in trying to bring people together to explain that we would be leaving but we would do it in a way that was not going to damage completely unnecessarily people's own livelihoods and our economy that's what we're sort of catching up to now that's right expect to be debated both in parliament and in cabinet in the next few weeks looking back over the last two years you were part of david cameron's cabinet which approved this referendum why did none of you ever asked the kinds of basic questions that people are grappling with no what if what if we lose the referendum
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what is the body splits what if europe applies the rules what about the northern ireland border why were none of these questions thought about beforehand so i can't say they weren't there were thought about. well partly because of the many of us campaigned in order to remain and it's difficult if your campaign for one thing to gaze into the crystal ball and answer every question that's going to come up i deeply regret the result but the result is here is we in this country oversee had a fair and democratic vote difficult very difficult for people to accept but i think it is the right thing to do to balance those two now which is to say yes we are going to leave the european union but we're not going to do it in a way there's damage and if we cause a bit of back to the past a read of the vote from two years ago and actually i think what happens is that attention is not given so that future relationship between the two parties which is very important or is the college response system. of democracy rule of
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law parliamentarism is under stress what happened in u.k. u.k. them the origin of modern parliamentarism. moved the most important decision in first to go. from westminster to river and i'm crazy there seems to have been a sense in france that this was really just a british problem and france could get perhaps some profit out of it but that's changing now isn't it. it's not just a question of wanting britain to suffer or the macro. suggested that he thought they should suffer didn't know he said i mean in fact it shows us one thing it's not easy to access the european union not without cost not without consequences is that force but he wanted the suggestion is that he wanted to pay that gesture is it another suggestion the matter of fact meaning the e.u.
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is a complicated process i don't think that anybody on either side of the channel would deny that would you do you know do you know anybody who would actually say that the process of leaving the you is an easy one. well actually people in this country in britain certainly said it was an easy one but they've been proved wrong do you believe in a last minute deal the two sides taking it right down to the wire just to show that they've extracted all the concessions i'd like and frankly others i just like to make a point there is no one including the president in france who thinks that bracks it is a good thing but there is a strong feeling in london that the french want to maximum uncertainty for as long as possible but one thing to try and persuade british based finance houses and to moving into continental europe you know we've been fairy very clear from the from the get go about what was important to france we just talked about europe we consider that the european single market is the future of our economy we were very clear there is one key red line which is any deal it cannot undermine that single
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market my question was do you believe in the last minute deal because it seems that mr bonior is softening some of his positions on northern ireland and on. financial services i think we should do everything in our power to find a deal i think not having a deal would be if not disastrous at least very hurtful for both parties so i think we should work absolutely consistently with one objective in the head to find idiot i do not get any price and it doesn't come at the price of undermining the said i want you to your populist movement has already in the in the it it states by . livening up white supremacists no doubts on greasing the numbers of their lies nation wide and with bricks it in britain has created enormous damage to the social fabric it's led to bitter political polarization
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because you've been looking for people's grievances and and you want to stir it up and i want i want to tell you that the because they're most dangerous people have the biggest dangers with the because their image has been created by the elite of the so-called elite to the ordinary guy for the last twenty or thirty years look at the social fabric and its existing to they look at the social fabric for example in france and so on look at the social fabric you know in the small. english english cities for example and i look at a rising on a serious you we on the list we are we are not we are not bringing we are bringing damages wellbeing damages to the social fabric we are bringing damages to deal eat to the establishment as it is these that are strong and we are a threat to them and little else inside to not tell the reservation inside the president didn't exist before really you can. you can make it worse you can know we are victims when we are the problem we are start this we are to content it to
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represent the ordinary guy ok that has been so long despised and forgotten by disease and indeed we are populists from all over the world the voice of this ordinary guy i would invite. to follow up our offer to be compromising my should take a look at the end of the deal when it's said that they've already said this is the only deal on offer so that you can come back again in a couple of months and try to alter it again well there's been no consistency from the british side has i don't think the british side has negotiated particularly clearly and i do to some extent sympathize with our european partners that. two reason is government hasn't been very clear because of internal divisions within the within the government parliament has legislated that we're leaving on the twenty ninth of march now has been clear about what it doesn't want us to resolve their self says yelling clear about what it does well parliament is so far
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rejected the withdrawal agreement but it hasn't rejected the leaf date of the twenty ninth of march and it remains to be seen whether it does get to the e.u. there's very little point in negotiations with someone who manifestly does not have a mandate for the deals he's already agreed let alone anything else in the future but she has a mandate as as does the house of commons as a whole to leave the european union to fulfill the referendum result and as i keep repeating the law is now quite clear in the united kingdom and indeed in the european union we're living on that date now there are people in the house of commons who are trying to change that decision change the decision of parliament. they are assuming that the european union will automatically provide some extension to article fifty i magine the european union is going to want to ask what for why are you extending article fifty. one of the draft proposals extends article fifty
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for nine months do you really want the united kingdom to take part in the european union elections to the european parliament when we're planning to leave the european union just nine months later you've been saying that no deal is increasingly attractive but that's not what you and your vocally colleagues promised the country was it every time and again they promised great deals with the you and everyone else and said they just fall into britain slapped and they turned out to be not. i have to confess that i think it's in the european union's interests to strike a sensible free trade deal with the united kingdom and whether we may. that agreement before we leave which looks rather unlikely now or after we leave i believe that that's what will happen but in the end my point is the really broken promise is we're well aware that the vote lead campaign didn't make promises we were campaigning for your fellow. secretary david davis constantly posted
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both britain's exit terms and a new free trade agreement would be wrapped up within the article fifty timeframe that hasn't gone so well he said at the end of two years or so into the sixty in the end of two years he said we will have other deals you don't have all i think there was definitely over confidence but i think it wasn't helped by the fact that theresa may. couldn't bring the cabinet together to agree what they were going to ask for and then and and then started asking for a much more complicated arrangement and i think that president tusk was originally offering that in march last last year and then the whole our border question has been confected as a mechanism to try and split the united kingdom. in a way that's completely unacceptable i don't know why the prime minister ever accepted the premise of that discussion but it could tell you all conflicts thank you thank you very much.
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i'm going.
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that shit is just bad. t.v. please let me respond to. the new piece of the space. shuttle good. luck. some. respect.
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this is g.w. news why but from berlin tonight bin it's taking to the streets to demand that president nicolas maduro give off power waving flags and calling for free elections protesters ratcheting up the pressure on the president's we'll take you live to caracas for the latest also coming up it may look like a winter wonderland but the life threatening freeze gripping the american midwest is colder than even in antarctica it has literally frozen daily life for tens of millions of people.


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