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tv   Quadriga  Deutsche Welle  June 22, 2019 12:30am-1:01am CEST

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latest projects around the world. used to let loose to british citizenship and force to ship. interactive content to china the next generation but it took such action. using any channels available to inspire people to take action and were determined to bring something new to the next generation along the environment series of global 3000 on t.w. and online. welcome to quadriga the eyes of the world have been on hong kong this past week as more than a 1000000 people throng the city center to demand the government retract a proposed law that would allow extraditions to mainland china police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets the rallies stunned hong kong chief executive
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kerry last who has now apologized and suspended the unpopular proposal that the protesters want nothing short of her resignation and full cancellation of the legislation they fear that it could become a long arm for beijing to apprehend political opponents and undermine hong kong's autonomous status. hong kong versus beijing power grab postponed that's the question we're posing on quadriga today and here are the guests who will be answering yes born in hong kong cherie challenge works mainly for social media department she says the fresh round of protests served as an important reminder for people in hong kong that they still have a battle to fight until 2047. pleasure to welcome. a freelance journalist and author who formerly worked with the economist based in hong kong he
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says despite growing resistance of hong kong. china will eventually. and finally we're very pleased to have with the activist he was involved in the umbrella movement that emerged during the hong kong democracy protests in 2014 he was granted asylum in germany last year he says we don't want hong kong to become just another city in china. so welcome to all of you let me ask you just start out by talking a little bit about the current situation even after the suspension of the proposed extradition law the protesters have made it clear they're not calling it quits apparently messages have been circulating on social media your social media expert calling for protesters to escalate their actions quote unquote what could that mean what do you expect the protesters on now organizing. demonstrations and.
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i think they don't expect to have such. to which they fall then they stay what they said that they would come back that. the chief executive said it will be withdrawn and that they also. charges on the protesters who were arrested so we are seeing his truck. demonstration ok ray would you say that carrie lam the chief executive of hong kong that her apologies and her suspension of the legislation was a genuine klein down a genuine retraction or is the government just biding its time. i think a traitor government just buying the time to let the whole case in the international community because last week 2000000 people on the streets drew a hitch attention from the international community like the us donald trump. he
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will raise the issue of hong kong in g. 20 i think it's a hitch pro sure to the hong kong governments. thank you and we will come back to pressure from outside a little bit later on but. for those of us who are less well acquainted in kong with hong kong it may have seemed a bit surprising at 1st that what appeared to be a procedural law would provoke this level of mass resistance in fact you called it heroic resistance what exactly is at stake and why is it that you think this year oic resistance is likely to proof you teil well that's a lot to me and what was a stake this was a rich man this was an idea the idea is to. allow the courts to extradite people to china or taiwan with whom hong kong doesn't have an extradition treaty has been around for a long time and never went anywhere and then there was a case about
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a whole can couple very young went to tell on and came back that gave kerry lamb puppet of beijing the excuse to suddenly accelerate that which made everyone think that she wants this not to extradite the alleged murderer that's that was it was a murder case to taiwan because by the way taiwan said we don't want this anymore once they figure it out but to open a back door into the hong kong judicial system which is based on english common law and still is pretty clean but to let people be extradited to mainland china and once people understood made that connection they realised that this is probably the most profound threat of many threats since they hand over to hunker liberties and that's where when they want went on to the streets in a way that i think is nothing short of heroic and why is it you think that that hero is and won't actually count in the long run you said yes actually that it's futile the chinese the mainland chinese from
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a western point of view are famous for their long time horizons there's even apocryphal jokes about that but they waited 100 years to get hong kong back in 1907 then they made a deal for 50 years and at the time we. in the west we're hoping well a lot can happen in 50 years maybe hong kong will change china more than china will change on kong it's not completely clear the terms of change china is in a trade which is standing up to the u.s. in a trade war they want there they want to make islands and 2 aircraft carriers in the south china sea they're really seizing what they view as their historical breuer auditive to be a major power and everything points to crack down but she jinping who doesn't want to lose face and i think the long term direction is we're going to slowly turn up the heat and then in another you know it's been 22 years since then over 2047 i think it's curtains so cherry your opening statement describes the protests as part of the battle that hong kong has to fight until 2047 until that deadline that
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describe he's saying the battle has already been lost. i think most people wouldn't think that this time they have a fake tree because caroline suspend the bew. but then it's a reminder for them that it's not only the bigger they are post a it's actually the whole system behind the whole fight for democracy the whole how to one country to a system in that they lead lives and i think as you have mentioned before into some 14 there was a protest movement and after that since no obvious outcome has been achieved i think after that many hong kong people actually lost hope of baby and they lost the momentum of what they were fighting for but then this fresh round of protests remind them that this is this is a very ongoing fight this is a long battle that they have to keep coming out again and again to to force their
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opinions i want to talk in just a moment about the link between the 2014 protests that you were so much a part of really and the ones we're seeing now but let's hear the voices now of some of those who were out on the streets of hong kong this past week and who clearly believe that this battle must be fought. so the other your bases that we must teach the children to tell right from wrong. hong kong students came out peacefully tricks press their opinion even though they were a little impulsive the police should not need rubber bullets tear gas and bean backgrounds to deal with the students. on it over the whole saga it's just a delay not a full council a sort of sense in the law so i think this is not over for until this is a complete stop to those crimes are they going if i don't take it out and i will tell you what more can you do with
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a thought yeah yeah yeah yeah i think they call us rioters but i but our gear is just a raincoat guy and a helmet really yeah yeah if you can run but they have a tons of money and they can make us believe. in liability i don't think that we own people came out to cause trouble we're fighting for a better future for hong kong while i went on gun with me. so raise those so those forces must sound familiar to you tell us a little bit about your experience during the 2014 protests whether you think they made an impact whether you think they made a difference and perhaps what you would want to say to these protesters today. 1st of all i think there is a big difference between the protests in 2014 and the protests today in 2014 as surely we. gain nothing from the government and even dole
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we have stayed in the streets for 79 days but the government didn't listen to us they didn't listen to our force or democracy but this time. the mental or the way of protesting is different from students on 14 i'm better than when he was that larger or more and more willful are what makes it different i think the biggest difference is that this time there is no significance leader so every protest they have their own followers they do what they think is useful to protests very interesting so would you have a message to those young people we just saw on screen. i would say
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now the political situation in hong kong is totally different from 2014. to 2014 a lot of hong kong people loss of its hole in hong kong but of that this time we can see that international. attention is very useful to give to the chinese scarf and as well as the hong kong government to change their mind or to make a bit concessions so i think all the protesters in hong kong should keep their hope and try their best to the international community was planning in hong kong and how importance of cherry how far would you expect the government to go to suppress protests if as you said there are continuing rallies escuela torrie actions even do you think the government's likely to do. i think the suppression of
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the protests will only be justified if it's clear. or clash between the police and protesters and so as long as the protesters they keep their calm and remain peaceful i don't think the government has the recent to stop people going on the streets just to say things that they wouldn't like and so or would have to see like what the protesters plans. but i wouldn't say the government will make a lot of efforts to. disperse the people. under it's sometimes difficult to get a reading on kerry lamb at least i find the chief executive of hong kong at times in the beginning she sounded like the mother of a recalcitrant child very strict then when she apologize she actually sounded at least genuinely distressed you said she's
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a puppet of the jing so she simply acting on beaching marching orders meaning it wasn't she who blinked it was beijing she claims that the extradition idea was her own idea but of course i wasn't even making this an ad hoc attack against carolan who seems to be a sort of colorless bureaucrat for the most part but the truth is all of the i arrived in hong kong that was told she was and then i still don't chang and then i left and there have been a couple of since they're all puppets of beijing that's the way the system is set up that's what you guys were protesting against you wanted to reelect them and the and legit go but also the chief executive directly and they're not so of course it is understood that they're there in part to represent the interests of beijing and that's not against kerry lam i think it whether she if she were to resign. which could happen as we speak the that there would there would be a new puppet it wouldn't solve anything as far as i'm concerned. joshua was an
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activist who played a leading role in the 2014 protests and was then sent to prison has just been released he says the demonstrators are browbeating now so that quote unquote the quote they don't suffer the same fate as the students on tiananmen square 30 years ago is such a crackdown imaginable in hong kong a tiananmen square type correct on. treated on the 1st 3rd of the umbrella. i had this fault because there were rumors that the tanks from china were crossing the border and police were holding that gun pointed to our face i think one's international community has no interest in hong kong to china they can do whatever they want in hong kong. very interesting so let's take a look then at the link between hong kong and china hong kong in fact has long
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served as a bridge between china and the world acting as a conduit for trade and investment in both directions let's take a closer look at relations between the 2 and what that means for the rest of the world. boasting over $7000000.00 inhabitants of the special administrative region of hong kong is one of china's most important trading hopes. when britain transferred sovereignty of hong kong to china in 1907 beijing agreed to guarantee the existing political and economic systems for 50 years according to the principle of one country 2 systems. hong kong's autonomous status guarantees civil rights such as freedom of the press and the right to protest. but these are under increasing threat as beijing's influence continues to grow. only hope of the 70 seats in parliament
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are elected directly. and chief executive was appointed by a largely probation election committee. arrests of the pro-democracy activists such as the recently released joshua one are also increasingly frequent. will beijing stick to the free transfer agreement. so let me pass that question straight on to all of you and start out with you sherry. do you think that the agreement will hold even till 2047. came out in the end i think it will all these things that china is trying to do now it's not to push that. to be reached like i think what they want to do is just to make sure that. gradually and slowly hong kong will become law similar
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to just other cities in china and their power. and the hong kong people will be. less. obvious just before that they was reached and so they just want to have this gradual change so they $47.00 it will be. peaceful and crack you change off the systems but you know obviously home people are not buying that andreas you're clearly skeptical about the group agreement holding in the long term what about the short to medium run well and not necessarily about the agreement holding on paper because remember that point about the time horizons it's not it's never been in china's interest to have a tenement square on the streets of hong kong because one thing the chart from china's point of view that it always wanted to one country 2 systems in both hong kong and macau to be was to demonstration projects for taiwan they were hoping to
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convince taiwan look if you ever want they want to gather all the chinese lands back into the mother country basically and for that they need to show that look we stick to agreements otherwise they can kiss taiwan goodbye it may be that she jinping has now decided well taiwan is gone anyway so it doesn't matter i think what could flip it is if she jinping who's made himself basically dictator for life recently changed the chinese constitution if he's thought he was losing face he could overreact short of that i don't think they will overreact and they will keep doing what they've been doing since i was there was there in 2003 at that time the problem was something called article 203023 they keep subverting hong kong's liberty in subtle ways until 2047 when it's barely noticeable and then and so my pessimism or even we're already halfway through almost the 50 year period that we've got one more generation and it will be it will be a steady gradual decline of liberty and then it will just be another chinese city
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ray i have to say when i was watching that report. i found myself asking what's it like to live in a place where a clock is ticking toward a deadline that could mean a completely different political system and a loss of liberty what can you tell us what that means for daily life for people living there. desperate for the young generation in hong kong because we drove in the place where we can enjoy freedom and the rule of law and. democracy but when we look at the china china's a chinese city. where the people have no freedom the freedom of speech is theirs for and read don't warm to live in such a city just wide we go to the streets to fight for democracy in order to keep
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distance from china. let me come back to the question of pressure from outside re talked about donald trump saying that he would bring upon kong status when he meets apparently with huge imputing on the margins of the g. 22 to what degree though would you really expect any country right now to truly stand up for hong kong visa v. china when there are so many tensions already. between for instance the us and china after these protests actually many countries including the e.u. i think they put us they meant staying there they support the protesters and they think that all these protestors they have their rights to force the opinion but then they see them vainly making it very obvious that they want democracy in hong kong. but i must say i think hong kong people this time around compared to 2014
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they really way smarter and more careful because we see a lot of protests all the i's in different countries in australia in the u.s. in europe and they really try to get as much international attention as possible so with the international pressure i would say it's something too for the government to back down a bit but as for china. i don't think it's been a place of big row in tennis that's just how they want to call under is how much to hong kong so that stability and prosperity matter both to the west and also to china as i was looking at the figures i found quite interesting to see that hong kong share of china's overall g.d.p. g.d.p. has dropped quite dramatically so question is would china really care if hong kong were to go into an economic tailspin. they would
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care but probably not as much what china has up to now. needed hong kong for is a finance center that brings capital in and out so a lot of i.p.o.'s have not just been happening in shanghai but also in hong kong because it is established common law and so forth but what are you been seeing for many many years now is a change in the division of labor among the asian financial centers so for instance a lot of the currency stuff is now in singapore a lot of the the direct investment in china is increasingly in shanghai so from china's point of view that is part of the long time arrives and they're hoping to arrange things so they need hong kong less and less and that shanghai plays a larger and larger role with support singapore and hong kong and taipei and seoul and tokyo so. china will will manage that and not care to mention as far as the west unfortunately i'm very pessimistic either the dollar who cares donald trump
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cares a hoot about this he cares about the china in terms of a trade war and he's his advisors are telling which is true there's a pop potential for a hot military war at some point and he cares about north korea where she jinping has been staging himself perhaps to get out to get out of the news cycle with funk pictures there he's walking around with the north korean dictator who who don't trump is trying to be chummy with don't trump does not care really about the freedoms and liberties of hong kong and the europeans and the germans care even less because they're being ground up there and they have their their trading mentality they're being ground up germany in particular between this american sino american trade war they want that settled and they don't want a larger war in the region and when push comes to shove they're not going to make hong kong something that they would. you know risk capital and cherry if i come back to our title whether the power struggle between beijing and hong kong has
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simply been postponed at best would you say that pressure from outside is essential in order for that power struggle to go hong kong's way and if so are you confident that hong kong can be more than a bargaining chip that both china and the west would happily throw away if they need to i would say a lot of international business set up their branch in hong kong expression because they're still rough law and they trust the legal system in hong kong and so i think economy is really up going cheap for hong kong to win this battle. maybe actually if they're on that ship they can use because to be honest i i don't think they international community really pay a lot of attention to human rights or the democracy in hong kong to say but yeah ray i was interested to see when i was reading up a little bit about your life here in germany that you have said that germany's
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experience of reunification gives you hope for hong kong can you just tell us to close the show why that is. because i met some german people that they have told me that actually. the never fort worth's germany and that is germany would eventually reunited but somehow it's happened saw or they told us never lose my hope true or a dictatorship they were eventually collapse so. looking toward that power struggle that our title talks about. how do you think it will come up. i think the international community should. shut. the whole government and china off me so i hope turman consulate on going to cull low res to hong kong issue in chief. thank you very much thanks to all of you for
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being with us today and thanks to you out there for turning the world see yourself .
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